Sonic the Hedgehog: The Prime World multi-universe size problem (and downgrade)

[Sparkive]

Hello!
This should be fast (probably no)

Basically, what we're going to discuss is the idea that the main universe is the size of several universes.
(I wanted to wait until I finished seen Sonic Prime, but someone seems to be advocating for removing the infinite universe size, which necessitates calculations for feats that depend on the size of the universe. I thought it was best to discuss this now to avoid having to do these calculations twice)
Even then, If you deem it necessary, I'm fine waiting for the other CTR to finish.

Argument
The proof of its size seems insufficient to me:

Sonic The Hedgehog (Main Continuity) Cosmology Page

The main universe where the majority of the series takes place,[1] housing countless[2] planets and stars[3] within it. The future of this world isn't set in stone and is prone to changing.[4][5][6][7][8][9][10][11][12][13][14][15] A “strange new multiverse”[16] created by the shattering[17] of...

vsbattles.fandom.com

Shatterspaces contain their own celestial bodies, such as suns, moons, and stars and are directly inferred to be entire universes of their own. time is shown to flow differently within different Shatterspaces.

All three links are informative, but the only one that proves the universal size of Shatterspaces is the one in bold.

• Shatterspaces contain their own celestial bodies, such as suns, moons, and stars / and are directly inferred to be entire universes of their own.

The reason we assume Shatterspaces are the size of a universe is simply because someone from a Shatterverse claims it's a universe. The problem is, for them (and everyone except Sonic and Shadow), their Shatterverse is all they know. Therefore, their only reference point for the size of a universe is their own Shatterverse, and consequently, they would consider 1/5 the size of a real universe to be the size of a real universe. The series makes it clear that everyone's memories in the Shatterverse originate from their own Shatterverse, so any cosmological references from someone who hasn't left their Shatterverse shouldn't be valid.
Apart from that, 1/5 of the universe may still contain stars and even galaxies.
...
And that's it,
...
..
.
Seriously, the only thing (that I found) that seems to support the universal size of the shatterverses is that someone called them universes, something that, based on what I said above, doesn't seem sufficient to me.

Who is affected?
Half a verse, let's take it one step at a time:

Where are we now?
According to this (+ search for scaling directly on the mentioned pages) all post-Colors base characters scale to 12 universes because Sonic is able to fight Nega-Wisp Armor, who should be stronger than Egg Dragoon, who would scale to Super Egg Robot and the True Area 53 Boss, that scale to Supersonic from the adventure era, that scale to this:

Low Multiverse level (The Chaos Emeralds contribute half the power to destroy Sonic and Blaze's dimensions)

Blaze's dimension is parallel and therefore equal to Sonic's, meaning that destroying 2 Prime world (6 universes each) = 12 universes destroyed

Now, this may be my own confusion, but I don't quite understand where the 6 universes comes from, since it only fragmented into 5 pieces. I assume that the void also counts as its own universal space, so I will follow this line of thought. IF I AM WRONG, PLEASE CORRECT ME.

So the universe in total maintained 2 universal spaces, the 5 fifths of the universe and the Void, this would make the Prime World 2 universes, and the feat would become only 4 universes.
Thanks to Chaos, that the feat is still better than what we have from secret rings; otherwise, we would have had to do more editing.

What do we just need to edit?

Spoiler: General pages

• Speeding Through the Stats Blog

In the Sonic Unleashed AP zone, change the mention of 12 universes for Egg Dragoon to 4, and do the same for Sonic Colors onwards.

• Sonic The Hedgehog (Main Continuity) Cosmology Page Why isn't it in the explanation blog sections of the Sonic main continuity page?

first, delete this: and are directly inferred to be entire universes of their own, then, at the end of the Prime World section, at the end of The Void sub-section correct accordingly

• Sonic the Hedgehog (Main Continuity)

Change the number in Power of the Verse from 12 to 4 Universes

• Calcs

The reason I'm rushing this CTR is that when it's time to do the calculations for this CTR, it doesn't have to be done twice; basically, use the size of 2 universes.

Spoiler: Characters

Change the number of the following characters from 12 to 4

• Sonic the Hedgehog (Classic)

Base (Modern Era Appearances) key and the minimum of the Super Sonic key

• Sonic the Hedgehog (Adventure)

Statistics Value 5 (minimum of the Super Sonic key)

• Sonic the Hedgehog (Modern)

Statistics Values 7, 14, 15, 21, 24, 32

• Tails (Game)

Statistics Values 1, 2

• Knuckles the Echidna (Game)

Statistic Value 1

• Team Sonic (Game)

Modern Era and the minimum of the Super Form key

• Rouge the Bat (Game)

Statistic Value 1

• Shadow the Hedgehog (Game)

Statistics Value 16

• E-123 Omega (Game)

Statistic Value 1

• Team Dark (Game)

Modern Era key

• Amy Rose (Game)

Statistic Value 1

• Cream the Rabbit (Game)

Statistic Value 1

• Big the Cat (Game)

Statistic Value 1

• Team Rose (Game)

Modern Era key

• Vector the Crocodile (Game)

Statistic Value 1

• Espio the Chameleon (Game)

Statistic Value 1

• Charmy Bee (Game)

Statistic Value 1

• Team Chaotix (Game)

Modern Era key

• Chaos (Game Sonic)

Scaling Note 1

• Blaze the Cat (Game)

Statistic Value 1

• Silver the Hedgehog (Game)

Statistic Value 1

• Marine the Raccoon

Statistic Value 1

• Wisps

Statistic Value 1

• Mother Wisp

Scaling Note 1

• Sticks the Badger (Game)

AP

• Avatar (Sonic the Hedgehog)

Statistic Value 1

• Tangle the Lemur

AP

• Whisper the Wolf

Statistic Value 1

• Cheese

Statistic Value 1

• Dr. Eggman (Game)

Modern Era key: physically, weapons & strongest inventions AP
Nightmare Eggman AP

• Infinite (Sonic the Hedgehog)

Statistic Value 1

• Egg Fleet

Modern Era key

• Egg Pawn

Sonic Forces key

• Metal Sonic (Game)

Statistics Values 1, 2

• Mecha Sonic Mk. II

Statistic Value 1

• Mecha Knuckles

Modern era key

• Shadow Android

Statistic Value 1

• Metal Sonic 3.0

Statistic Value 1

• Death Crab (Sonic the Hedgehog)

AP

• Heavy King

Phantom King key

• Eggmobile

Statistic Value 1

• Super Egg Robot

Statistic Value 1

• True Area 53 boss

Statistic Value 1

• Egg Salamander

Statistic Value 1

• Egg Dragoon

Statistic Value 1

• Nega-Wisp Armor

Statistic Value 1

• Eggrobo (Sonic Lost World)

Statistic Value 1

• Death Egg Robot (Sonic Forces)

Statistic Value 1

• Zavok

Statistic Value 1

• Zazz

AP

• Zomom

AP

• Master Zik

Statistic Value 1

• Zeena

Statistic Value 1

• Zor

AP

• Black Dragon

AP

• Biolizard

Modern Era & Finalhazard AP key

• Dr. Eggman Nega

Assorted Mechas "up to" AP key

• Dark Guardian (Game Sonic)

AP

• Rough

Statistic Value 1

• Tumble

Statistic Value 1

• Mimic the Octopus

Statistic Value 1

• Doctor Starline

AP

• Surge the Tenrec

Statistic Value 1

• Shade the Echidna

Statistic Value 1

• Voxai Overmind

AP

• Imperator Ix

AP

• Extractor (Sonic the Hedgehog)

Statistic Value 1

• Eggman Empire

Infantry AP key

• Black Arms

Modern Era Ap key

• Jet the Hawk (Game)

Statistic Value 1

• Wave the Swallow

Statistic Value 1

• Storm the Albatross

Statistic Value 1

• Babylon Rogues (Game)

AP

• Soldier (Sonic the Hedgehog)

AP

• Ninja (Sonic the Hedgehog)

AP

• Tower (Sonic the Hedgehog)

AP

• Asura (Sonic the Hedgehog)

AP

• Cyclone (Sega Sonic)

Modern Era AP key

• Chaos Emeralds (Game)

Statistic Value 2

• Phantom Ruby

Statistic Value 1

• Extreme Gear (Main Continuity)

max AP

Spoiler: Others

Time Stones
Downgrade from 6 to 2 universes (his feat only affects one prime world)
Paradox Prism
Downgrade from 6 to 2 universes
CHANGE this from its AP from : "that each contain a parallel world/universe of their own" to something like " that each contain a parallel world of their own"
This profile really needs fixing (probably stopping the use of promotional information), but that's for another time.
Trip the Sungazer
No direct mention, the tier is simply wrong, it says Universe level+ while it scales to Classic Supersonic, which is Low Multiverse level at his worst

...
That's all!

Vote (Staff)
Agree:
Disagree:
Neutral:

 

[Omegabronic]

Argument
The proof of its size seems insufficient to me:

Sonic The Hedgehog (Main Continuity) Cosmology Page

The main universe where the majority of the series takes place,[1] housing countless[2] planets and stars[3] within it. The future of this world isn't set in stone and is prone to changing.[4][5][6][7][8][9][10][11][12][13][14][15] A “strange new multiverse”[16] created by the shattering[17] of...

vsbattles.fandom.com

All three links are informative, but the only one that proves the universal size of Shatterspaces is the one in bold.

• Shatterspaces contain their own celestial bodies, such as suns, moons, and stars / and are directly inferred to be entire universes of their own.

The reason we assume Shatterspaces are the size of a universe is simply because someone from a Shatterverse claims it's a universe. The problem is, for them (and everyone except Sonic and Shadow), their Shatterverse is all they know. Therefore, their only reference point for the size of a universe is their own Shatterverse, and consequently, they would consider 1/5 the size of a real universe to be the size of a real universe. The series makes it clear that everyone's memories in the Shatterverse originate from their own Shatterverse, so any cosmological references from someone who hasn't left their Shatterverse shouldn't be valid.
Apart from that, 1/5 of the universe may still contain stars and even galaxies.

No, there's also

A “strange new multiverse” created by the shattering of the Paradox Prism, a crystalline artifact of immense reality-warping power. The Shatterverse houses five distinct worlds where Sonic never existed, with alternate versions of Green Hill Zone and his friends.

It is DIRECTLY said to be a multiverse, aka a collection of different universes that are thought by some people to exist at the same time, outside of it showing big cosmos like scope, and being called universes/parallel worlds, aka... unless you have any proof for them to be smaller than actual universes when they are called to be just that... then no, we are not going to assume they are arbitrary smaller than what they are called to be both in and out of the story

Considering this doubt is your only argument, it should be enough

 

[MugenKage]

Yeah, no. I was fine sitting back and accepting the other downgrades going on at the minute, since they seemed reasonable enough. However, not only are you piling on MORE downgrades on top of the already in progress ones, you’re doing it while you KNOW we have an Imugur scan crisis going on at the minute.

And also, this is just completely unreasonable. Each of the Worlds in Prime are described as parallels to each, all of them have their own individual flow of time, nothing indicates that any one of them would be smaller than the others, and the big kicker, SEVERAL sources describe Shatterspace as a MULTIVERSE, aka multiple UNIVERSES.

I really don’t like calling people out for shit on here, cause really I’m a small fish in a big pond, but this was in bad taste lad, especially after Shake’s call for help yesterday. Not. Cool.

 

[Sparkive]

unless you have any proof for them to be smaller than actual universes

They are literally a universe fragmented into 5 parts, and the characters who make the universal reference, simply by living in a shatterverse where all changes are considered normal, have no way of knowing what the size of a real universe should be.

The only argument I see that makes sense is that it's called "Strange New Multiverse"... but

• The 24-episode animated adventure for kids, families, and long-time fans draws upon the keystones of the brand and features the “Blue Blur” of video game fame in a high-octane adventure where the fate of a strange new multiverse rests in his gloved hands. Sonic’s adventure is about more than a race to save the universe, it’s a journey of self-discovery and redemption.

1. They immediately call it a race to save the universe
2. It's most likely a way to describe the series without spoiling the plot: "the multiverse is really the universe fragmented by Sonic." considering that the first link is from before the series came out

In the video that links to "where sonic never exits", if you look at the description, they are also calling it just universe

 

[Sparkive]

Yeah, no. I was fine sitting back and accepting the other downgrades going on at the minute, since they seemed reasonable enough. However, not only are you piling on MORE downgrades on top of the already in progress ones, you’re doing it while you KNOW we have an Imugur scan crisis going on at the minute.

I really don’t like calling people out for shit on here, cause really I’m a small fish in a big pond, but this was in bad taste lad, especially after Shake’s call for help yesterday. Not. Cool.

Check the Sonic thread; I literally announced I was going to make the thread, and I literally mentioned that if it was too much trouble, I could just leave it until the other person finished.

And also, this is just completely unreasonable. Each of the Worlds in Prime are described as parallels to each, all of them have their own individual flow of time, nothing indicates that any one of them would be smaller than the others, and the big kicker, SEVERAL sources describe Shatterspace as a MULTIVERSE, aka multiple UNIVERSES.

1. That's what I understand because the cosmological page says 6 universes, but there are only 5 worlds we know from the fragment
2. And aren't half of them promotional materials from when they were hiding from us that the "multiverse" was the prime universe being destroyed?
Incidentally, the flow of time doesn't matter here

 

[ShakeResounding]

Just popping in for now to say that we should keep any hostilities to a minimum and treat each other with respect going onwards. We can all disagree or agree but still be cordial, and the last thing I want is for the Sonic fandom here to get painted as rabid dogs.

This is NOT to anybody in particular, this is a preface because I know some people are gonna feel butthurt about several downgrade threads popping up one after another.

Be chill, folks, alright?

 

[Omegabronic]

They are literally a universe fragmented into 5 parts, and the characters who make the universal reference, simply by living in a shatterverse where all changes are considered normal, have no way of knowing what the size of a real universe should be.

That could work if we didn't had the other statements about it, but we do

The only argument I see that makes sense is that it's called "Strange New Multiverse"... but

1. They immediately call it a race to save the universe

Yes... because they are trying to save the Prime World, aka "The Universe"/original state of reality before the shattering, so that statement would be correct regardless of the size of the Shatterspaces, which are still Universes in verse anyway, this is a matter of terminology, nor size, and as such, really doesn't prove anything relevant for the thread at hand

2. It's most likely a way to describe the series without spoiling the plot: "the multiverse is really the universe fragmented by Sonic." considering that the first link is from before the series came out

Spoiler?... that's episode 1... i would hardly call that a spoiler

Plus you are just using guess work here, unless you can prove that's the intention, then you don't have much of a point, plu they still use the same wording after the series was done and published, so it is very unlikely that the intention you are guessing was the true one

In the video that links to "where sonic never exits", if you look at the description, they are also calling it just universe

Again, terminology problem, not size, yeah, in Universe, the Prime World is a "universe", that doesn't say anything about its cosmological structure, that would be true regardless of the size or structure of the things being refered to, as such things are verse specific

 

[JJSliderman]

Spark did bring this up to me in private before posting it in the general thread, I’m sorry I didn’t make it known prior.

I won’t comment much on this because it seems it’ll be on the back burner for a little.

 

[Omegabronic]

For another source, the Sonic Prime Sticker & Activity Book also calls the Shatterspaces universes

 

[MugenKage]

Check the Sonic thread; I literally announced I was going to make the thread, and I literally mentioned that if it was too much trouble, I could just leave it until the other person finished.


1. That's what I understand because the cosmological page says 6 universes, but there are only 5 worlds we know from the fragment
2. And aren't half of them promotional materials from when they were hiding from us that the "multiverse" was the prime universe being destroyed?
Incidentally, the flow of time doesn't matter here

You shouldn’t have made this downgrade AT ALL right now, it’s just flat out inconsiderate of all the hard work being put in by everyone else. And you shouldn’t have to ask if you should put a pin in it for now, it’s just a reasonable and humane thing to do. I doubt you’d be enjoying life if your coworkers were coming up to you and saying “Hey I know you’re currently drowning in work right now, but could I add onto that workload real quick? Thank you!”

5 universes and The Void. Omega’s already said his piece on that and I agree with him. Having their own unique flows of time is evidence for why they constitute as separate space-times rather just separate spaces.

 

[Starsprite53]

Ammm, I believe there is a materially better way to frame and justify this downgrade and arguments could have been better and mentioned other details.
Neutral leaning to disagree

 

[Causalist]

Disagree for Mugen and Omega's reasons.

 

[AyOgUyS]

Well if each of the Shatterspaces has their own flow of time, I think that should be enough to say that they are separate space-times, no?

 

[Starsprite53]

After digging through the scans Omega posted, I've spotted even more issues with the 2-C Prime universe argument and it's starting to look shakier than before.
I'm not sure if I should dump them all here right now, though. Maybe it's better to hold off and make a proper CRT once the Imgur situation gets sorted (or earlier if people are fine with me posting my view in this thread) and honestly I'm super lazy about formatting everything rn lol.

 

[AyOgUyS]

After digging through the scans Omega posted, I've spotted even more issues with the 2-C Prime universe argument and it's starting to look shakier than before.
I'm not sure if I should dump them all here right now, though. Maybe it's better to hold off and make a proper CRT once the Imgur situation gets sorted (or earlier if people are fine with me posting my view in this thread) and honestly I'm super lazy about formatting everything rn lol.

Perhaps any topic involving stuff with missing scans should be postponed until the Sonic imgur scans have been restored?

 

[Sparkive]

Spoiler?... that's episode 1... i would hardly call that a spoiler

Yes, and they don't reveal what really happened until later episodes.
The multiverse being a universe is a plot twist (not a very good one, but still).
I think it's only in the second batch of episodes (that is, with Shadow) that it's revealed.

----
The proof in-verse only work because there's evidence of promotional content and such.
And that seems like a problem to me.
How can there be a mention of "Strange New Multiverse"? Fragments of universes that, without proof of being universe-sized, are treated as if they were universe-sized while they're inside a universe.
For these fragmets to be universes, do they really need to be the size of a real universe?

In any case, regardless of the outcome, I think we should ignore the Chaos Council's comment, because using it either implies nothing, since the word universe isn't explicitly of a certain size, or using its real meaning inversely means being the size of Prime (which is impossible without creating an infinite loop of buffs).

For another source, the Sonic Prime Sticker & Activity Book also calls the Shatterspaces universes

I assume you gave me the names in order.
The first one is literally a quote from the dialogue I'm dismissing; they just took the dialogue from the chapter and put it in there, and on top of that, having a Eggman say it makes it useless again, because he shouldn't know anything.

The second one, since it's not linked to any character, is useful if you consider external content usable.

And I think I see the problem.
Personally, I don't usually use promotional content, albums, etc. (the furthest I consider valid are guides), while it seems the wiki does accept them (since I see them used as arguments).
I think that's where the blind spot in my thread came from, where I didn't confirm all the sources outside the series.

Ammm, I believe there is a materially better way to frame and justify this downgrade and arguments could have been better and mentioned other details.
Neutral leaning to disagree

After digging through the scans Omega posted, I've spotted even more issues with the 2-C Prime universe argument and it's starting to look shakier than before.
I'm not sure if I should dump them all here right now, though. Maybe it's better to hold off and make a proper CRT once the Imgur situation gets sorted (or earlier if people are fine with me posting my view in this thread) and honestly I'm super lazy about formatting everything rn lol.

Honestly, yeah, I've never been good with higher tiers, but I know this needed fixing,
it just seems I don't have all the arguments.
Preferably not. I mean, this CTR clearly isn't going to be able to progress much on its own, so if you think you can do better, then take the time you need and make sure it doesn't cause problems with the Imgur scans like mine apparently did.

You shouldn’t have made this downgrade AT ALL right now, it’s just flat out inconsiderate of all the hard work being put in by everyone else. And you shouldn’t have to ask if you should put a pin in it for now, it’s just a reasonable and humane thing to do. I doubt you’d be enjoying life if your coworkers were coming up to you and saying “Hey I know you’re currently drowning in work right now, but could I add onto that workload real quick? Thank you!”

5 universes and The Void. Omega’s already said his piece on that and I agree with him. Having their own unique flows of time is evidence for why they constitute as separate space-times rather just separate spaces.

I know you didn't do it on purpose, but... You're touch one or two sensitive topics for me there, so... stay with only arguments or leave
it would be "just a reasonable and humane thing to do"
ShakeResounding (probably the one most affected by this) explicitly said that we should try to treat each other with respect here.

 

[Omegabronic]

Yes, and they don't reveal what really happened until later episodes.
The multiverse being a universe is a plot twist (not a very good one, but still).
I think it's only in the second batch of episodes (that is, with Shadow) that it's revealed.

Again, unless you can prove intent, when the same phrasing is used even after the "reveal", then you don't have much of a point

The proof in-verse only work because there's evidence of promotional content and such.

No it also works cause it verbatim calls them "universes" on top of everything, like being separated space times, etc

And that seems like a problem to me.
How can there be a mention of "Strange New Multiverse"? Fragments of universes that, without proof of being universe-sized, are treated as if they were universe-sized while they're inside a universe.
For these fragmets to be universes, do they really need to be the size of a real universe?

Yes, cuz that is what a multiverse is, down to its very definition, questioning "how can there be a statement" when the statement in question is already made... doesn't cover it, as of now, they ARE called universes both in and out of the series, so you would need to have proof that they aren't universes for your point to work, otherwise it will be an endless "but they don't NEED" loop instead of a definitive "We know they ARE cuz [Reasons and arguments given]" you know?

In any case, regardless of the outcome, I think we should ignore the Chaos Council's comment, because using it either implies nothing, since the word universe isn't explicitly of a certain size, or using its real meaning inversely means being the size of Prime (which is impossible without creating an infinite loop of buffs).

A universe is the size of a universe, one needs proof for it to be otherwise, we will ignore blatant statements that are corroborated by... everything else

I assume you gave me the names in order.

It is only 1 book

The first one is literally a quote from the dialogue I'm dismissing; they just took the dialogue from the chapter and put it in there

Still another source

, and on top of that, having a Eggman say it makes it useless again, because he shouldn't know anything.

Says you? The history of these places went on as normal, only without Sonic existing, in timeline wise, their universes would have the same time to expand as a normal universe does, big bang theory and all that, specially when all other sources of the series they are STILL called universes

The second one, since it's not linked to any character, is useful if you consider external content usable.

And I think I see the problem.
Personally, I don't usually use promotional content, albums, etc. (the furthest I consider valid are guides), while it seems the wiki does accept them (since I see them used as arguments).
I think that's where the blind spot in my thread came from, where I didn't confirm all the sources outside the series.

I honestly don't see why external sources would be less valid to a point of being disconsiderated... it simply makes no sense

 

[Maverick_Zero_X]

Disagree with the downgrade via Omegabronic and MugenKage's counterarguments. Pretty clear cut the Shatterverse is supposed to be a Multiverse.

 

[LukeChaosBlobz]

Disagree fra

 

[JJSliderman]

Is the multiverse term automatically assumed to mean that each dimension is a universe? If so then, I guess by the wiki's standards I disagree with the downgrade. Otherwise neutral.

 

[Causalist]

Is the multiverse term automatically assumed to mean that each dimension is a universe? If so then, I guess by the wiki's standards I disagree with the downgrade. Otherwise neutral.

In this case, absolutely. It means "multiple universes" and the universes in question are obviously the shatterspaces.

 

[Dalesean027]

Yeah I'm gonna have to disagree here as well

 

[OldestDream2]

heavily disagree

 

[Maniaunavailable]

This was debunked on another CRT that tried the same way to debunk Sonic (I don’t have the link but I think it was telomera?). No matter how much you try it’s literally said and shown to be a multiverse very many times, especially in 2006-generations.


Put me on disagree as well

 

[Qawsedf234]

herefore, their only reference point for the size of a universe is their own Shatterverse, and consequently, they would consider 1/5 the size of a real universe to be the size of a real universe. The series makes it clear that everyone's memories in the Shatterverse originate from their own Shatterverse, so any cosmological references from someone who hasn't left their Shatterverse shouldn't be valid.
Apart from that, 1/5 of the universe may still contain stars and even galaxies.

So for the sake of a Tier, a 3-B, 3-A, and High 3-A space will all result in a Low 2-C space of the same size. As its some amount of 3-D objects being multiplied by an uncountable infinite number of times. As long as its significant, it will result in a space-time of equal size due to how it works on multiplication wise.

The only way the Shatter Spaces wouldn't be each Low 2-C, is if their timestream would naturally fuse back together again or you're arguing they're under 3-B (so super low 3-B or under 3-C).

Having said that, by that same token, Sonic's universe wouldn't be 2-C either unless it also contains multiple different space-times within itself.

 

[Qawsedf234]

To expand on it since I have more time now:

— Firstly, it is significant to understand that a universe, including space-time continuums and timelines, encompasses all three-dimensional space that can be accessed through regular movement within the universe. This means that any location that can be theoretically reached through conventional means of travel, such as spaceflight, would be considered part of the same universe and timeline, regardless of how the fiction portrays it. Movement between universes should only be feasible through extraordinary modes of transportation, such as portals, higher-dimensional movement, or teleportation. By default, it is assumed that universes have separate three-dimensional spaces, but if a piece of fiction demonstrates otherwise, destruction of several connected timelines would be rated as Low 2-C (Universe level+).

— Secondly, there is the case of timelines that are connected at certain points in time. Unlike the scenario in which travel between universes is always possible through three-dimensional movement, connection between these timelines only occurs at specific times. At these moments, the timelines may be considered as the same universe. For instance, if a timeline splits into two, the timelines were once the same universe before the split occurred. Conversely, if two timelines merge into one, they become the same universe only after they have been fused. In such cases, destruction of a timeline is only accounted for if it was not connected to any other timeline for an infinite amount of time. Conversely, if numerous timelines were never separate for an infinite amount of time, they would be considered as one timeline for the purpose of tiering their destruction or creation.

It should be noted that timelines are assumed to be infinite in length, unless evidence to the contrary is provided. Hence, unless otherwise indicated, the destruction of timelines that branch off from one another and never merge would still be ranked between 2-C and 2-A (depending on the number).

Universe page

In other words, I don't see Sonic Prime as being a justification for 2-C for the following reasons:

• Sonic's universe was originally Low 2-C
• The Prism split and caused separate timelines to appear, which makes everything 2-C
• When they're merged, the universe is once again Low 2-C

The only thing I can see as being 2-C is the void that the universe floats in being 2-C in size. Since after the series, the void should still be present, but it would only have a single portal that leads to the Prime World.

If nothing scales to that void, then the default universe assumption would need to be changed

 

[Omegabronic]

To expand on it since I have more time now:

In other words, I don't see Sonic Prime as being a justification for 2-C for the following reasons:

• Sonic's universe was originally Low 2-C
• The Prism split and caused separate timelines to appear, which makes everything 2-C
• When they're merged, the universe is once again Low 2-C

The only thing I can see as being 2-C is the void that the universe floats in being 2-C in size. Since after the series, the void should still be present, but it would only have a single portal that leads to the Prime World.

If nothing scales to that void, then the default universe assumption would need to be changed

Sonic's universe wasn't originally Low 2-C, one of the main points for this aspect is that it is said multiple times that all that happened to Sonic's universe was that it was "shattered"/"splintered", aka, broken down to smaller pieces, with it even being noted that the Shatterverse is not part of the multiverse, aka, they aren't separated timelines in the same vain as the other universes we have seen in the series so far

So they aren't other universes in the multiverse, but the Prime World broken down to smaller pieces

 

[Qawsedf234]

So they aren't other universes in the multiverse, but the Prime World broken down to smaller pieces

You missed my point. That still makes Sonic's universe just Low 2-C:

Conversely, if two timelines merge into one, they become the same universe only after they have been fused. In such cases, destruction of a timeline is only accounted for if it was not connected to any other timeline for an infinite amount of time. Conversely, if numerous timelines were never separate for an infinite amount of time, they would be considered as one timeline for the purpose of tiering their destruction or creation.

Only the void realm that holds the six universes is 2-C. The Prime World itself is only ever Low 2-C.

 

[Remus1998]

Disagree

 

[Omegabronic]

You missed my point. That still makes Sonic's universe just Low 2-C:

Only the void realm that holds the six universes is 2-C. The Prime World itself is only ever Low 2-C.

The Void realm would still be encompassed by what was "splintered" tho, so the Prime World should still scale as The Void would still have been made by splintering the Prime World into a smaller piece

Edit: Given the quote you showed... yeah, by the standards, I concede on the Shatterspaces themselves, but my point about The Void still stands imo

 

[Causalist]

You missed my point. That still makes Sonic's universe just Low 2-C:

Only the void realm that holds the six universes is 2-C. The Prime World itself is only ever Low 2-C.

The timeline of the prime world would include the void, so what difference does it make? Before the prime world splintered into the Shatterverse, the void was inherently built into it. If not in its present, at least in its future. Every universal+ or higher feat that involves the prime world must therefore also involve the void.

 

[Starsprite53]

To expand on it since I have more time now:

In other words, I don't see Sonic Prime as being a justification for 2-C for the following reasons:

• Sonic's universe was originally Low 2-C
• The Prism split and caused separate timelines to appear, which makes everything 2-C
• When they're merged, the universe is once again Low 2-C

The only thing I can see as being 2-C is the void that the universe floats in being 2-C in size. Since after the series, the void should still be present, but it would only have a single portal that leads to the Prime World.

If nothing scales to that void, then the default universe assumption would need to be changed

I agree with this and there is stuff I have to add.
First, calling it a “new multiverse” would be incoherent if the prime universe were already a multiverse in structure priorr to the prism event. I guess that terminology makes sense if the shattering produced multiple alternate universes derived from a single original one IMO.
Second, the shattterspaces are consistantly described as alternate universes and they are full variations of the same framework/reality this is further renforced by the fact that one of them is effectively the Prime uni in a dead or drained state (After it got "shattered")
As far as I'm aware Low 2-C structure can be split into multiple Low 2-C ones. I think the shattering does not imply that the original universe was divided into smaller fractions and Instead it implies duplication (weird) into alternate world variations (as We have the same exact planet and characters across different shatterspaces and looking again at the cast when the accident happened, We see what shattering in context is)
Also btw I’m hesitant to consider the void 2-C or to scale the timeline to it, since it’s treated as a separate/new structure rather than something inherent to it. It’s also shown mainly as a space that houses the gateways leading to the Shatterspaces.

 

[Maniaunavailable]

is Sonic prime part of the main canon? I do not remember this beign part of the main cosmology

 

[Qawsedf234]

Prime World should still scale as The Void would still have been made by splintering the Prime World into a smaller piece

Why would the Prime World scale to a space that completely encompasses it?

The timeline of the prime world would include the void, so what difference does it make?

Effecting the universe =/= effecting the Void. You can destroy a Shard Universe/Prime World without effecting the Void space.

Before the prime world splintered into the Shatterverse, the void was inherently built into it

You're working the wrong way. The universes are subsumed by the Void, not the other way around. The Void is 2-C but any individual universe inside it is Low 2-C.

 

[Omegabronic]

Why would the Prime World scale to a space that completely encompasses it?

The void is part of shatterverse, which was what the prime world shattered into, it doesn't encompass it, it is part of its "bubble" of reality

 

[Starsprite53]

The void is part of shatterverse, which was what the prime world shattered into, it doesn't encompass it, it is part of its "bubble" of reality

By the looks of it, The void serves as the container, likely formed as a chain reaction from the split designed to hold all shatterspaces, including the prime universe as the whole thing referred to as the new multiverse, where each shatterspace exists parallel to Sonic's world. Otherwise, it would create a problematic circular reasoning.
A Low 2-C Shatterspace → Le 2-C Void (by containing the shatterspaces) → 2-C Prime universe -> The prime world itself is a shatterspace and since each shatterspace is an alternate version of it → a 2-C Shatterspace etc etc.

 

[Qawsedf234]

The void is part of shatterverse, which was what the prime world shattered into, it doesn't encompass it, it is part of its "bubble" of reality

If the Void doesn't exist anymore then there's no justification for 2-C after they all fused together again.

 

[Causalist]

By the looks of it, The void serves as the container, likely formed as a chain reaction from the split designed to hold all shatterspaces, including the prime universe as the whole thing referred to as the new multiverse, where each shatterspace exists parallel to Sonic's world. Otherwise, it would create a problematic circular reasoning.
A Low 2-C Shatterspace → Le 2-C Void (by containing the shatterspaces) → 2-C Prime universe -> The prime world itself is a shatterspace and since each shatterspace is an alternate version of it → a 2-C Shatterspace etc etc.

The only reason it's circular is because you're referring to both the shatterspace that Sonic and co live in and the macrocosm that encompass it as "the prime world"... Do you not see the issue?

If the Void doesn't exist anymore then there's no justification for 2-C after they all fused together again.

They didn't.

 

[Starsprite53]

If the Void doesn't exist anymore then there's no justification for 2-C after they all fused together again.

I have a question to clear my doubts, should the void even be 2-C since it just has the TARDIS looking gateways rather than physically holding the entire universes.

 

[Starsprite53]

The only reason it's circular is because you're referring to both the shatterspace that Sonic and co live in and the macrocosm that encompass it as "the prime world"... Do you not see the issue?

But the way it's treated rn the entire thing is resulted from the prime world shattering no?