Vegeta vs Aizen

[Billybobjoe321]

Not a single character said something about destroying the whole universe itself, let alone the timeline in that scene

I mean, we get have characters holding balls of literal DESTRUCTION about to throw them and saying that they don’t care what happens to the universe.

Through shockwaves that we only see happen once, in the fight between goku and beerus specifically. Beerus and Champa clash and there are no shockwaves, Goku and Vegeta clash countless times with a lot of opponents and there are no shockwaves and so on.

What type of argument is this? Are you trying to argue that they aren’t universal because those are anti-feats or something? Both goku and vegeta in their clashes care about the universe being destroyed. Beerus and champa also cared about the universe being destroyed in their clashes, this is implied by the fact that afterwards they state “I don’t care what happens to the universe anymore” these are two characters who we know are more than powerful enough to destroy the universe on their own, now about to clash with balls of literal destruction, going all out and stating that they don’t care what happens to the universe anymore, and you are trying to somehow argue the universe wasn’t going to be destroyed.

It's a response to headcanon. Now you are headcanoning about how hakai works, trying to give it a completely new ability based on an ability i already siad it shouldn't have

How am I headcanoning how hakai works? It is already accepted through multiple scans that hakai has both causality manipulation and history ee. I am arguing against your notion that since zamasu is still remembered after hakai, it can’t be history ee, by explaining how that is not true.

My main argument is that the scans in the justification don't imply history erasure. The main argument is against the justification.

And I have refuted that thoroughly.

Canon facts supporting my argument are just a bonus.

What canon facts are supporting your argument here?

It is an "explanation" based entirely on the existence of an ability of hakai that shouldn't exist in the first place,

And why shouldn’t hakai have said ability? You haven’t argued that at all? And I’m pretty sure hakai is already accepted as having causality manipulation if you check beerus’ profile.

required to have things make sense in case hakai has history erasure, but which is never even mentioned.

Why would it be required also? And what do you mean mentioned? You want them to verbatim mention “causality manipulation” in reference to hakai or something? There are already multiple things supporting that in the series.

I said they aren't completely erased from history, thus memories of them as well as the actions they were doing before the time erasure are still there.

And memories and actions are not them. Like I’ve explained it’s possible to erase someones existence, without erasing memories and actions previously caused by their existence, because those are two separate things.

Your explanation is headcanon required to make an ability that also doesn't exist work. So yeah, the argument that isn't sound is yours.

Why do you keep saying that the ability doesn’t exist? Causality manipulation doesn’t exist? And why can’t hakai have causality manipulation, and why does it need causality manipulation?

Anyway, now we are doing what i said i don't want to do, take a whole page just discussing whether hakai has history erasure or not, which isn't the point of the thread.

This is relevant to the thread in your own words

Vegeta without history erasure has no actual counter to Aizen's regen

So by your logic, shouldn’t deciding whether vegeta has history erasure be the most important thing in a thread about vegeta vs aizen? Though I do still think vegeta can win without hakai.

I belive i made myself clear enough for those who don't need headcanon to create the possibility of the existence of an ability that shouldn't exist in the first place as the scans don't support it,

You haven’t explained at all why it shouldn’t exist. I already explained and it is accepted that hakai has history ee due to the ability to erase a space-time. You haven’t explained why hakai would also need causality manipulation to be history ee. And if it would need causality manipulation to be able to erase someone across the timeline, yet keep peoples memories of them, that would mean that it has causality manipulation, because that is what it did.

 

[Specterxxxx]

What's vegeta win cons and how fast he is using them?

 

[Specterxxxx]

What's vegeta win cons and how fast he is using them?

Because if it's hakai or some other attack, vegeta isn't going to use that at the start of the fight, Aizen on the other hand can just use KS or wrap himself in space if vegeta can some how notice him with KS active and just crush him to bits with kido. Unless someone explains how vegeta can negate that win con, i see aizen taking this fight 100% when taking into considerations their character.

Aizen win cons being faster because hado 90 and KS are things he can use as a starter especially in this case that he sees vegeta being superior (not that it would even change if he was inferior because aizen is generally wayy too cautious to even engage properly with someone he doesn't know.).

 

[Gamin_Yoon23]

Vegeta FRA

 

[Billybobjoe321]

Vegeta has layered energy sensing and resistance to mind manipulation. So ks probably won’t be the end-all-be-all. Combined with the possibility of him just outright negating it due to the giant power difference

 

[Sigurd_Snake_in_The_Eye]

Vegeta will be immobilized by Aizen’s spiritual pressure. His LS is below Aizen so he won’t even be able to move.

Transcendent’s in Bleach work the same way as God Ki. A lesser cannot sense them.

Vegeta is unfortunately a KS and LS victim from RC. Even if he’s strong enough to not be damaged by it.

 

[TiltedFN]

Voting Vegeta

 

[Azertyhuuh]

It seems that this long discussion has sparked a lot of unnecessary controversy. Vegeta defeats Aizen easily, and I’ve read all the comments, and it seems that some information was hidden by some Bleach fans so the truth wouldn’t appear, but fortunately I followed both works.

First, we have Goku in Z who was able to resist illusions and they no longer affected him, and that was only in Z. In the Moro arc in Super, Moro tried to put Goku into an illusion, but it didn’t affect Goku at all, and at that moment Goku told him that illusions don’t affect him, and that’s Goku’s own statement to Moro. Aside from that, Goku in Z alone can defeat characters who manipulate illusions, and it doesn’t work against him, and Vegeta in the manga is at the same level of power as Goku and far stronger than Z Goku in an unimaginable way, of course. Therefore, the whole illusion argument and putting him under illusions is no longer relevant and has no importance in a fight.

Ichigo in the manga is no longer affected by Aizen’s illusion, and Aizen himself is surprised by this, since Ichigo himself wasn’t affected by the illusion and Aizen can no longer influence him with it. Aizen even told him that he knows he wasn’t affected by the illusion, which means Ichigo’s power alone surpasses and successfully transcends the illusion and it no longer affects him at all. And as we know, Vegeta is far stronger than Ichigo in terms of power, at the 2-C level.

In the direct confrontation between Aizen and Ichigo in the Dangai form, Aizen, even with all his power, couldn’t even sense Ichigo’s power and couldn’t withstand Ichigo at all, even in his monster form, and illusions were no longer useful against Dangai Ichigo in the first place. And as we know, without repeating what we already mentioned, Vegeta is stronger than Dangai Ichigo and manga Ichigo. That means Dangai Ichigo is no longer affected by illusions, and abilities like Hado 90 are no longer effective. We even saw Ichigo destroy Hado 90 with just his hand, and it didn’t affect him at all, even though Ichigo’s power was 3-B or less at that moment—so how can you say that a technique like Hado 90 would affect Vegeta??? And in the Horn of Salvation form, we saw Ichigo not affected by illusions at all as I said before, and there was dialogue between them and so on…

So simply, Vegeta crushes Aizen in a second.

 

[Huesito88]

Voting Vegeta

For what reasons?

 

[Sigurd_Snake_in_The_Eye]

It seems that this long discussion has sparked a lot of unnecessary controversy. Vegeta defeats Aizen easily, and I’ve read all the comments, and it seems that some information was hidden by some Bleach fans so the truth wouldn’t appear, but fortunately I followed both works.

First, we have Goku in Z who was able to resist illusions and they no longer affected him, and that was only in Z. In the Moro arc in Super, Moro tried to put Goku into an illusion, but it didn’t affect Goku at all, and at that moment Goku told him that illusions don’t affect him, and that’s Goku’s own statement to Moro. Aside from that, Goku in Z alone can defeat characters who manipulate illusions, and it doesn’t work against him, and Vegeta in the manga is at the same level of power as Goku and far stronger than Z Goku in an unimaginable way, of course. Therefore, the whole illusion argument and putting him under illusions is no longer relevant and has no importance in a fight.

Ichigo in the manga is no longer affected by Aizen’s illusion, and Aizen himself is surprised by this, since Ichigo himself wasn’t affected by the illusion and Aizen can no longer influence him with it. Aizen even told him that he knows he wasn’t affected by the illusion, which means Ichigo’s power alone surpasses and successfully transcends the illusion and it no longer affects him at all. And as we know, Vegeta is far stronger than Ichigo in terms of power, at the 2-C level.

In the direct confrontation between Aizen and Ichigo in the Dangai form, Aizen, even with all his power, couldn’t even sense Ichigo’s power and couldn’t withstand Ichigo at all, even in his monster form, and illusions were no longer useful against Dangai Ichigo in the first place. And as we know, without repeating what we already mentioned, Vegeta is stronger than Dangai Ichigo and manga Ichigo. That means Dangai Ichigo is no longer affected by illusions, and abilities like Hado 90 are no longer effective. We even saw Ichigo destroy Hado 90 with just his hand, and it didn’t affect him at all, even though Ichigo’s power was 3-B or less at that moment—so how can you say that a technique like Hado 90 would affect Vegeta??? And in the Horn of Salvation form, we saw Ichigo not affected by illusions at all as I said before, and there was dialogue between them and so on…

So simply, Vegeta crushes Aizen in a second.

What kind of of fanfic were you reading? Aizen never used KS on Ichigo. And he’s never seen his hollow form in tybw lol.

 

[Specterxxxx]

It seems that this long discussion has sparked a lot of unnecessary controversy. Vegeta defeats Aizen easily, and I’ve read all the comments, and it seems that some information was hidden by some Bleach fans so the truth wouldn’t appear, but fortunately I followed both works.

First, we have Goku in Z who was able to resist illusions and they no longer affected him, and that was only in Z. In the Moro arc in Super, Moro tried to put Goku into an illusion, but it didn’t affect Goku at all, and at that moment Goku told him that illusions don’t affect him, and that’s Goku’s own statement to Moro. Aside from that, Goku in Z alone can defeat characters who manipulate illusions, and it doesn’t work against him, and Vegeta in the manga is at the same level of power as Goku and far stronger than Z Goku in an unimaginable way, of course. Therefore, the whole illusion argument and putting him under illusions is no longer relevant and has no importance in a fight.

Imma need a scan of all this.

Ichigo in the manga is no longer affected by Aizen’s illusion, and Aizen himself is surprised by this, since Ichigo himself wasn’t affected by the illusion and Aizen can no longer influence him with it. Aizen even told him that he knows he wasn’t affected by the illusion, which means Ichigo’s power alone surpasses and successfully transcends the illusion and it no longer affects him at all. And as we know, Vegeta is far stronger than Ichigo in terms of power, at the 2-C level.

In the direct confrontation between Aizen and Ichigo in the Dangai form, Aizen, even with all his power, couldn’t even sense Ichigo’s power and couldn’t withstand Ichigo at all, even in his monster form, and illusions were no longer useful against Dangai Ichigo in the first place. And as we know, without repeating what we already mentioned, Vegeta is stronger than Dangai Ichigo and manga Ichigo. That means Dangai Ichigo is no longer affected by illusions, and abilities like Hado 90 are no longer effective. We even saw Ichigo destroy Hado 90 with just his hand, and it didn’t affect him at all, even though Ichigo’s power was 3-B or less at that moment—so how can you say that a technique like Hado 90 would affect Vegeta??? And in the Horn of Salvation form, we saw Ichigo not affected by illusions at all as I said before, and there was dialogue between them and so on…

So simply, Vegeta crushes Aizen in a second.

This is most untrue statement I have read in my life.

Ichigo isn't immune to KS, Aizen just never used it on him at any point in the story, simply because he didn't want affect or handicap Ichigo for his own reasons. If you think him casting it on yhwach who is just as strong as Ichigo doesn't immediately destroy every false message you brought here then you are in for a surprise lmao.

Being 2C isn't going to save him from getting crushed by Hado 90 3 seconds into the fight, Ichigo having Class T strength does not mean Goku or vegeta gets the same, what type of argument is even that? They get folded by superior LS feats period.

 

[Specterxxxx]

Having layered KI sensing isn't gonna help him predict an hado 90 that SPAWNS on you and destroys you with immense Class T gravitational force lol. Furthermore, I hardly even see this relevant when aizen illusions can work on Yhwach who is immune to other illusions (from shinji) and mind based attacks. Also transcendent reaistu works just like transcendent ki.

And please any One that voted Vegeta without being able to prove his win cons being faster should be revoked because I haven't seen any counters from vegeta against Aizen's first literal move.

 

[LuffyRuffy46307]

Vegeta sola the verso, there's no way Bleach characters can face a 2-C character, especially Vegeta. The rule of greater energy trumps all hax in Bleach still works. Aizen barely touches Vegeta and is destroyed on a story level. Vegeta creates a barrier and, with his mere presence, nullifies everything Aizen commands with the energy of destruction.

Vegeta fra

 

[Sigurd_Snake_in_The_Eye]

I’ll wait until someone can prove Vegeta can even move under Aizen’s spiritual pressure pinning him down.

 

[CastoriceTheFifth]

Transcendent’s in Bleach work the same way as God Ki. A lesser cannot sense them.

So how many layers

 

[Mbpoops]

The fact this has gone on for 3 pages is concerning

 

[Mbpoops]

So how many layers

“I dont argue layers”

 

[Ottavio_Merluzzo]

Why are we mixing Reiatsu crushing with LS.

 

[Sigurd_Snake_in_The_Eye]

So how many layers

Idk prob 2?

Normal Shinigami > Transcendent Aizen > Dangai Ichigo who Aizen couldn’t sense. Doesnt really matter though energy sensing isn’t relevant.

 

[Sigurd_Snake_in_The_Eye]

Why are we mixing Reiatsu crushing with LS.

Because it’s a physical force that can pin people down? Aizen does it several times.

 

[Ottavio_Merluzzo]

Because it’s a physical force that can pin people down? Aizen does it several times.

That can be done with high enough AP as well...I'm pretty sure we don't accept that kind of stuff for LS on the site.

 

[Sigurd_Snake_in_The_Eye]

That can be done with high enough AP as well...I'm pretty sure we don't accept that kind of stuff for LS on the site.

My guy it’s a pressure. You need high enough LS to lift yourself up, do you not?

 

[Specterxxxx]

So how many layers

Does it even matter? Vegeta would just be able to tell where aizen is, he wouldn't be able to tell that is going to get killed by a literal domain expansion.

Also, Everyone is forgetting that aizen can also bend space to hide himself inside it making him untouchable and undetectable to anyone unless your a kido expert. He can still launch an hado 90 from there and one shot.

 

[Specterxxxx]

That can be done with high enough AP as well...I'm pretty sure we don't accept that kind of stuff for LS on the site.

Reaistu crush entails both AP and LS together (thinking of a falling meteor for example) so even if vegeta is durable enough to withstand the 3B AP, the Class T LS pressure would still crush his weaker body. So he wouldn't even be able to move while Aizen goes Hado 90 ggs or seals him.

 

[TiltedFN]

I haven't seen anything that implies Reiatsu crush is 1:1 with the users actual lifting strength. Even slightly less normal humans we're able to somewhat stand up in it iirc.
I'm also not seeing any accepted layers for transcendent beings simply having resistance to normal extrasensory perception.
If Vegeta can sense him he'll notice something is up and just spread his aura over the area like he did in his very first move and kill him with that, or just wave his hand in Aizen's general direction and one shot with Hakai.
He can also do that to multiple targets btw.

 

[KaramcaS]

Its spiritual pressure, not physical pressure, not LS, just Soulish AP.

Vegeta has space-time manipulation as well

Vegeta can do anything to souls, he has absolute control over them

Unless you are stronger than him, no spiritual attack will affect him.

Vegeta is able to overcome Mind Manipulations with Pure Power (AP), meaning mind things are useless against him.

Hado 90 atomize anyone within it, Vegeta is resistance to Existental level matter destruction

 

[Ottavio_Merluzzo]

Its spiritual pressure, not physical pressure, not LS, just Soulish AP.

Pretty much. The applications of Reiatsu crush mentioned here are already covered by stuff like Paralysis Inducement or Fear Manipulation, alongside other abilities. It's hax that targets the soul with AP in the mix, not LS.

 

[UnoRebaixadO]

If that were true, Ichigo's friends would have died here.

 

[KaramcaS]

16yo human tomboy student girl who has Class T LS wow

 

[Thermor]

If that were true, Ichigo's friends would have died here.

Well Aizen called it impressive, so wouldn't this be an upscale?

 

[Sigurd_Snake_in_The_Eye]

If that were true, Ichigo's friends would have died here.

Aizen avatar but you don’t know he held back here? He’s not trying to do anything here. He’s just existing.

 

[Specterxxxx]

Its spiritual pressure, not physical pressure, not LS, just Soulish AP.

Vegeta has space-time manipulation as well

Vegeta can do anything to souls, he has absolute control over them

Unless you are stronger than him, no spiritual attack will affect him.

Vegeta is able to overcome Mind Manipulations with Pure Power (AP), meaning mind things are useless against him.

Hado 90 atomize anyone within it, Vegeta is resistance to Existental level matter destruction

Again this is not addressing the gravitational force of Hado 90 that is Class T. You just brought up a bunch of points that wasn't even argued. How does Vegeta soul and physical body overcome the effects of hado 90, I hope you know both his soul and his actual body would be affected right so explain that and your argument would be more clear.

I haven't seen anything that implies Reiatsu crush is 1:1 with the users actual lifting strength.

Aizen physiacally reaistu crushed yhwach's reaistu that has higher than class T lifting strength feat so his reaistu crush is default 1:1 when he chooses to release it offensively which tybw aizen does at the start of any fight.

Even slightly less normal humans we're able to somewhat stand up in it iirc.

Because he lowered it intentionally, verbatim stated by the man himself. This isn't an argument. Tybw Aizen is full display how his offensive reaistu is relative to his LS stats.

I'm also not seeing any accepted layers for transcendent beings simply having resistance to normal extrasensory perception.

Because layers argument suck, Yhwach's has transcendent reaitsu, Aizen KS worked on him.

If Vegeta can sense him he'll notice something is up and just spread his aura over the area like he did in his very first move and kill him with that, or just wave his hand in Aizen's general direction and one shot with Hakai.

Why would his first attack be hakai? When has vegeta done this as a first attack? Also Aizen can protect himself from those attacks with spatial manip like kyokko.

He can also do that to multiple targets btw.

Cool, still wouldn't touch him while Aizen summons a fcking hado 90.

 

[Specterxxxx]

The severe ignorance in this thread on how reiatsu works is concerning so I will do bit of in depth and how Aizen is absolutely molly washing Vegeta from the moment the fight starts taking actual consideration at their character traits and canon way of fighting.

 

[LuffyRuffy46307]

 

[CastoriceTheFifth]

Welt Vs Aizen after this btw

 

[Mbpoops]

Welt Vs Aizen after this btw

"durrr spritual pressure LS"

 

[CastoriceTheFifth]

"durrr spritual pressure LS"

Welt is class Y to potentially immeasurable LS depending on chain scale

 

[Epiccheev]

Vegeta teaches Aizen how to manipulate a soul FRA

 

[Specterxxxx]

Now to severely utterly and completely vaporize the spiritual pressure isn't LS argument to non existence, it is literally stated that spiritual pressure has weight (LS) and that weight would crush you if you don't scale to it even the owner of the reaistu would be affected by the weight if their own physicals can't withstand it. So at bare minimum if aizen isn't class T, his spiritual pressure would crush him and anyone around him who isn't class T. Also stated by aizen that reaistu "crushes" as he literally crushes yhwach's own reiatsu, the same reaistu that raised an entire country to millions of miles, which is even calced at Class Z so Aizen should even have Class Z rating but no one has fixed the profiles yet but I will digress to the Class T because that is literally enough.

As for Aizen using reiatsu crush LS on people with lesser LS, he literally LS checks grimjoww with reaitsu while both had Class M LS ratings, a Class T to Class G would be even worse. At best vegeta doesn’t move under his reaistu, at worst he gets crushed to death immediately. Either way, It's ggs if he isn't dead but is completely restrained and gets super crushed by hado 90 which has an even greater LS or just straight up dies from reaitsu alone. Either way its ggs.

Also crushing falls under LS and not AP btw, so 2C AP with Class G LS would die to class T crushing force.

As for the Transcendent Argument, I didn't even know we could do something like this that's why you don't see it on Aizen’s profile but I could make it clear in this thread. Dangai Ichigo and SK yhwach (who has immunity to illusion and mind attacks) reaistu is one transcendence above Monster Aizen who is one Transcendence above normal soul reapers and hollows and yet tybw Aizen can affect Sk Yhwach. That alone shows two layers. Also note that Transcendence bleach also means they can't sense your reaistu as well btw.

So he isn't nullfying KS or anything we have said thus far

 

[CastoriceTheFifth]

@Tuxidoe_Redo Btw im pretty sure its like 9-10 votes for Vegeta rn