THE DARK TOWER: Distinctions that are necessary to do.

THE DARK TOWER: MISTAKE AND SCALING, THE MOST MISUNDERSTOOD VERSE.​

Hello, I'm OXONOM, a french powerscaler. It will make more that one year I use Dark Tower and VSBW, but in the last few months I've realized an important distinction to consider This distinction is almost never made, not even on this wiki page regarding Gan. Indeed, today I'm going to introduce you to an important distinction to make, And I will offer some of my scales.

​

In The Dark Tower, at the start, there was nothing, nothing but Prim, the primordial chaotic soup. From this soup, Gan rose from it. After that, he created Dark Tower. Dark tower itself created the physical multiverse and he rose himself to infinity, like Gan.



Dark Tower, will be described as the "physical Manifestation of the great god Gan", proving that Dark Tower is not Gan, so qualify "Gan" as the dark tower is wrong.

CONCLUSION:​

Gan is Not Dark Tower. Dark tower is an avatar.

THE OTHER AND GAN​

In IT (Books), IT thinking he's at the top of cosmology, get into a limit, so he supposed that there was an Other. After that, he was terrified, And Stephen king will backup this Other, with like 3 statement.

The Other dwelt in a void beyond

The Other is a power beyond all others power, the author of all there was

IT would be an infinitesimale Fly in this Other's mind

there's three major differences between Gan and The Other. Gan rose from prim, created The Dark Tower and KA. After that, He passively ascended to infinity, observing his creation. His voice continues to echoes in Macroverse chamber.



The Other, encompasses everything in his mind, dwelt in a void beyond the Macroverse, and created everything. So, the transcendance is different, analogy is different, and how they works is different, and there's no solide link between them.

CONCLUSION:​

The Other is not Gan.

SCALING: THE OTHER​

APOPHATISM: Apophatic theology is the “negative” theology of the study of God. By this, I mean that God, in apophatic theology, cannot be described by what He is, but rather by what He is not.

VSBW directly addresses this subject on its omnipotence page; it is therefore appropriate to admit that this theory is applicable in a Meta under VSBW as an authority.

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Omnipotence

Moreover, the application of apophatic theology to a character is sufficient to exactly fulfill all the criteria necessary for Tier 0, as it is a theory closely related to the mechanism of Tier 0 itself. Thus, in order to prove my Tier 0 as a whole, I will have to prove that:

The incomprehensibility of my character does not come from an inferior intellect—such as a four-dimensional square being incomprehensible to three-dimensional beings—but is incomprehensible in its very nature, namely.

The incomprehension of the character must be correlated with its power and its magnitude; it must also be. It must furthermore transcend the entirety of the qualities of the intellectual object. It would therefore not be hyperboles, but serious affirmations regarding its ontology.

Moreover, the statements of this character must be a duality, a comparison—this is the principle of “he is not” rather than “he is.” Statements beyond that should be considered exaggerations, but they will in no way hinder the scaling of the character.

In Stephen King’s universe, specifically the novel IT, the clown that took control of Derry with a 27-year cycle to devour children is intimately connected to The Dark Tower. In reality, the cosmology of The Dark Tower is linked to the entirety of Stephen King’s works.



Moreover, IT exists beyond the Macroverse, beyond the Great Turtle.



This Other dwelt in a void beyond this one

No formal description, only an affirmation of its existence. This does not debunk apophatic theology, because in apophatic theology, the existence of a God beyond is precisely affirmed.

This Other was perhaps, the creator of IT, and the Turtle. A Force Beyond The Universe, A Power Beyond All Other Power The Author of all there was.

No formal description, direct suppositions using “perhaps”; it is described as a force beyond IT’s universe, a non-duality, the author of all things, thus obtaining feats of primacy and creation.

Where IT Existed As A Titanic, Glowing Core, Which Might Be No More Than The Smallest Mote In That Other's Mind.

Everything is said to be an infinitesimal speck in its mind, again with suppositions.

It is therefore clear that nothing is certain regarding The Other, except its existence beyond all things and the fact that everything is created by it, each being an infinitesimal part of its mind. Moreover, these consistent feats are sufficient to grant Tier 0 for The Other. Indivisibility is not proven, as it is unprovable in this context. However, VSBW notes that Tier 0 does not require proving all prerequisites. Therefore, within the brief expectations of scaling, I can prove that The Other is Tier 0 via: Primacy, omnipotent, feat of creation, ineffability, no distinction between ontological and objects, and insurpassability.

THE OTHER: TIER 0

Thank you for reading, I appreciate it.

I'll Add more arguments for distinction a bit after

 

[Iiliminal]

mdr je vais rien lire frero bonne chance

 

[Hecky2222]

The only thing misunderstood there is how Apophatic Theology works from OP

 

[Oxonom2962]

mdr je vais rien lire frero bonne chance

Pas cool

 

[Oxonom2962]

The only thing misunderstood there is how Apophatic Theology works from OP

You thinks its work on another way ?

 

[Hecky2222]

You thinks its work on another way ?

i just implied nothing there is remotely close to what you are aiming for

 

[SweetDao]

Why are we using comics when it was said in the last thread that it was better to separate the cosmology? Even Ultima seems to leaves out the comics entirely?

Idk, seems weird. That's something to talk with the supporters of the verse, really.

 

[Jockey-1337]

Why are we using comics when it was said in the last thread that it was better to separate the cosmology? Even Ultima seems to leaves out the comics entirely?

Idk, seems weird. That's something to talk with the supporters of the verse, really.

It is funny to see the OP uses comics to try to "upgrade" the verse, ignoring a ton of anti-feats that exist in comics.

Btw, the books have a lot of anti-feats as well. The same Breakers exist there as well and do the same "job". The verse caps at 2-A and even this 2-A is weaker than a an average 2-A.

The Cosmology of the Dark Tower:
(Infinite timelines or alternative universes) - (unknown number of bad endings where the Tower has been destroyed) = 2-A

 

[SweetDao]

It is funny to see the OP uses comics to try to "upgrade" the verse, ignoring a ton of anti-feats that exist in comics.

Btw, the books have a lot of anti-feats as well. The same Breakers exist there as well and do the same "job". The verse caps at 2-A and even this 2-A is weaker than a an average 2-A.

The Cosmology of the Dark Tower:
(Infinite timelines or alternative universes) - (unknown number of bad endings where the Tower has been destroyed) = 2-A

I don't think he's doing an upgrade here (?), I think he just tries to say that "The Other" =/= "Gan", which seems like a stretch imo (and even if we assume it would be the case, it would be practically unscale without more info, three single lines just can't make anything.)

 

[Jockey-1337]

I don't think he's doing an upgrade here (?), I think he just tries to say that "The Other" =/= "Gan", which seems like a stretch imo (and even if we assume it would be the case, it would be practically unscale without more info, three single lines just can't make anything.)

There are tons of times when Dark Tower's God has been called "Gan" and only 1 occasion where he was called "The Final Other". Moreover, it comes from in-universe characters in a side story ("It" is a part of Stephen King's omniverse, but not a part of the Dark Tower storyline).
It seems to me it is a "sly" tactic to disconnect Gan's anti-feats from the God.

 

[Jockey-1337]

And yes, "the Final Other" is an absolute featless. The only thing we "know" about him is that he exists in a place X outside of place Y.
Nothing useful.

 

[Jockey-1337]

Additionally, Maturin in "It" (novel) and Maturin in the Dark Tower (novels) are almost certainly two different characters.

In "It" (novel), Maturin died.
In the Dark Tower's Book #7 Maturin (with or without Shardik) were the last survived Guardians, because the Crimson King and his Breakers destroyed 5 of 6 Beams. The last Beam (the active one) was the Beam of Maturin and Shardik.

My point:
Maturin, who died in "It" is probably an avatar of the true Guardian who defends the Beam.

 

[Iiliminal]

yakub and his children approve of jockey not being allowed to agartha

 

[Oxonom2962]

Why are we using comics when it was said in the last thread that it was better to separate the cosmology? Even Ultima seems to leaves out the comics entirely?

Idk, seems weird. That's something to talk with the supporters of the verse, really.

Because many of Comics is a contradiction to novels, So, to be consistent, they use a specific type of book, even though Stephen King assumed that everything was supposed to revolve around Dark Tower. For example, the new Cosmologies page considers The comics are like worlds around DT, without real impact, but the statements about the characters can be taken seriously.

 

[Oxonom2962]

i just implied nothing there is remotely close to what you are aiming for

so, what is Apophatism for you ?

 

[Oxonom2962]

It is funny to see the OP uses comics to try to "upgrade" the verse, ignoring a ton of anti-feats that exist in comics.

Btw, the books have a lot of anti-feats as well. The same Breakers exist there as well and do the same "job". The verse caps at 2-A and even this 2-A is weaker than a an average 2-A.

The Cosmology of the Dark Tower:
(Infinite timelines or alternative universes) - (unknown number of bad endings where the Tower has been destroyed) = 2-A

"Antifeats" for you is narrative common senses.
Comics have no Antifeats for TFO, comics have Antifeats for Gan. By the way, this only planels debunk all of your theses:

Reading the novel is not an option.

 

[Jockey-1337]

Because many of Comics is a contradiction to novels, So, to be consistent, they use a specific type of book, even though Stephen King assumed that everything was supposed to revolve around Dark Tower. For example, the new Cosmologies page considers The comics are like worlds around DT, without real impact, but the statements about the characters can be taken seriously.

Can you provide examples of contradictions?

"Gan made the multiverse" comes from comics, not novels.

"The Multiverse is vulnerable to the Breakers" is the same thing in novels and comics.

"Different floors = Different whens and wheres" is the same thing in novels and comics.

What are the contradictions? Any examples, please.

 

[Oxonom2962]

There are tons of times when Dark Tower's God has been called "Gan" and only 1 occasion where he was called "The Final Other". Moreover, it comes from in-universe characters in a side story ("It" is a part of Stephen King's omniverse, but not a part of the Dark Tower storyline).
It seems to me it is a "sly" tactic to disconnect Gan's anti-feats from the God.

Again and Again, Stephen king explained at the end of Insomnia that every Books and comics are a part of Dark Tower. Dark Tower is the nexus of Dark Tower, and saying "Dark Tower storyline" is illogical cuz of it exist an infinite amount of dark tower and an infinite amount of Story. Gan has never been called The Final Other. the final other is never mentioned in any books, except in IT which is directly connected in DT with Deadlights who incarn Todash Darkness (which is the last void before TFO's one.)

 

[Jockey-1337]

Comics have no Antifeats for TFO

Maybe because TFO was mentioned in a single occasion in all of King's works?
So you try to use TFO as some kind of a "higher form" of Gan to disconnect Gan's anti-feats?
What a sly tactic... but if you use "TFO" as a separated character, then you cannot use Gan's feat to support TFO.

 

[Oxonom2962]

Can you provide examples of contradictions?

"Gan made the multiverse" comes from comics, not novels.

"The Multiverse is vulnerable to the Breakers" is the same thing in novels and comics.

"Different floors = Different whens and wheres" is the same thing in novels and comics.

What are the contradictions? Any examples, please.

In the comics, we learns more about the Dark Tower. It said that dark tower is the nexus of everything, encompassing lifes and size. In Book, the Macroverse is described as a "formeless void with infinite universes", Macroverse is existing outside Dark Tower, encompassing Dark tower. So what ? Universes inside or outside? Contradiction.

 

[Oxonom2962]

Maybe because TFO was mentioned in a single occasion in all of King's works?
So you try to use TFO as some kind of a "higher form" of Gan to disconnect Gan's anti-feats?
What a sly tactic... but if you use "TFO" as a separated character, then you cannot use Gan's feat to support TFO.

It's not an higher form, its a totally different being. And i assume it, Gan Cannot be T0, but TFO can. By the way, Feats of Gan are not assimiled to TFO, BUT we can backup some deduction feat cuz he created everything

 

[Jockey-1337]

Again and Again, Stephen king explained at the end of Insomnia that every Books and comics are a part of Dark Tower.

"Dark Tower novels", not "every book".

"The Dark Tower contains many levels, and within those levels are parallel words which mirror each other, but which are not exactly alike. I always view the Dark Tower comics as existing in one of these parallel worlds. If the Dark Tower novels exist in Tower Keystone, or the central world of the Dark Tower universe, then the Dark Tower comics exist in a spinoff world, one which is very similar to, but not exactly the same as, the one where The Gunslinger, The Drawing of the Three, The Waste Lands, Wizard and Glass, and the rest of the Dark Tower novels take place. When you think about it, this idea of parallel worlds isn't so different from contemporary theories in quantum physics. According to these theories, every time we make a decision and follow a certain path in life, another reality is born where we make a different decision and follow a different life path. For example, imagine that you are walking down the street. You come to a crossroad. You have a decision to make - you can either turn left and go home or you can turn right and go to the shop and buy a lottery ticket. You tell yourself that buying a lottery ticket is stupid, so you go home and take a nap. However in a parallel reality, a different version of you turned right and bought a lottery ticket...and won! (But don't be too sad that in this where and when you didn't buy that lottery ticket. On another level of the Tower, you were hit by a van before you even reached the store.)"
- Source: The Dark Tower - The Gunslinger - The Man in Black 01 (of 05) (2012) (Digital)

The Dark Tower novels are the main canon of the Dark Tower storyline.

"It" novel storyline happens in a different universe, like the Dark Tower comics storyline.

 

[Oxonom2962]

I don't think he's doing an upgrade here (?), I think he just tries to say that "The Other" =/= "Gan", which seems like a stretch imo (and even if we assume it would be the case, it would be practically unscale without more info, three single lines just can't make anything.)

They can do anything. When you are declared as encompassing everything in you mind (scaling on cosmology), created everything (can be extrapolated to omnipotent), and dwelt in a void beyond the void of IT which encompassing Macroverse and dark tower, its a low-low ball to H1A inf meta layers, low ball at H1A+ T1, and can be rea to T0

 

[Jockey-1337]

In the comics, we learns more about the Dark Tower. It said that dark tower is the nexus of everything, encompassing lifes and size. In Book, the Macroverse is described as a "formeless void with infinite universes", Macroverse is existing outside Dark Tower, encompassing Dark tower. So what ? Universes inside or outside? Contradiction.

The Tower > Macroverse:

BREAKERS (BEAM BREAKERS)
The Breakers of THUNDERCLAP are both the prisoners and the servants of the CRIMSON KING. Imprisoned in the DEVAR-TOI, located in the poisoned land of END-WORLD, they use their psychic abilities to weaken the BEAMS, which hold the DARK TOWER in place. Although few (if any) of the Breakers willingly undertook the job of destroying the macroverse, few of them complain once they experience the diverse pleasures available beneath the Devar’s artificial sun.
- Source: The Dark Tower Glossary

THUNDERCLAP
In Wizard and Glass we learn that the fey realm of Thunderclap sits on the lip of END-WORLD. In Wolves of the Calla, we discover that the dark land of Thunderclap sits just east of the BORDERLANDS, which in turn sit on the eastern edge of MID-WORLD-that was. Thunderclap is the home of the DEVAR-TOI, or Big Prison, where the CRIMSON KING keeps the psychic BREAKERS. The Breakers (who are human) are forced to use their wild talents to erode the BEAMS so that the foundering DARK TOWER will collapse, causing the macroverse to blink out of existence.
- Source: The Dark Tower Glossary

 

[Oxonom2962]

"Dark Tower novels", not "every book".

"The Dark Tower contains many levels, and within those levels are parallel words which mirror each other, but which are not exactly alike. I always view the Dark Tower comics as existing in one of these parallel worlds. If the Dark Tower novels exist in Tower Keystone, or the central world of the Dark Tower universe, then the Dark Tower comics exist in a spinoff world, one which is very similar to, but not exactly the same as, the one where The Gunslinger, The Drawing of the Three, The Waste Lands, Wizard and Glass, and the rest of the Dark Tower novels take place. When you think about it, this idea of parallel worlds isn't so different from contemporary theories in quantum physics. According to these theories, every time we make a decision and follow a certain path in life, another reality is born where we make a different decision and follow a different life path. For example, imagine that you are walking down the street. You come to a crossroad. You have a decision to make - you can either turn left and go home or you can turn right and go to the shop and buy a lottery ticket. You tell yourself that buying a lottery ticket is stupid, so you go home and take a nap. However in a parallel reality, a different version of you turned right and bought a lottery ticket...and won! (But don't be too sad that in this where and when you didn't buy that lottery ticket. On another level of the Tower, you were hit by a van before you even reached the store.)"
- Source: The Dark Tower - The Gunslinger - The Man in Black 01 (of 05) (2012) (Digital)

The Dark Tower novels are the main canon of the Dark Tower storyline.

"It" novel storyline happens in a different universe, like the Dark Tower comics storyline.

This statement is not from Stephen king. Its an narrative Statement, this is a statement of stephen king form Dark Tower IIV

It was logical to deduce that I was part of the gunslinger’s ka. My master idea was to make the Dark Tower novels a kind of recapitulation, a way to unify as many of my past stories as possible under the aegis of a sort of über-narrative. I never envisioned this as an act of arrogance (and I hope it is not), but simply as a way of showing how life influences art (and vice versa).

In my view, if you have read the last three volumes of The Dark Tower, you will understand how the allusions to my taking retirement make complete sense in such a context. In one sense, there is nothing left to tell now that Roland has reached his goal… and I hope the reader will see that, upon discovering the Horn of Eld, the gunslinger may finally find himself on the path to his own resolution. Perhaps even his redemption—who knows?

You see, everything revolves around reaching the Tower—mine and Roland’s—and that has finally been accomplished. You may not have liked what Roland found at the top, but that is another story altogether. And do not begin sending me angry letters about it, because I will not answer them. The matter is closed.

I cannot say that I am especially fond of this ending, to tell the truth, but it is the right ending. The only ending, in fact. You must remember that I do not truly invent all these things. I merely write down what I see; I paint from life.

 

[Oxonom2962]

The Tower > Macroverse:

BREAKERS (BEAM BREAKERS)
The Breakers of THUNDERCLAP are both the prisoners and the servants of the CRIMSON KING. Imprisoned in the DEVAR-TOI, located in the poisoned land of END-WORLD, they use their psychic abilities to weaken the BEAMS, which hold the DARK TOWER in place. Although few (if any) of the Breakers willingly undertook the job of destroying the macroverse, few of them complain once they experience the diverse pleasures available beneath the Devar’s artificial sun.
- Source: The Dark Tower Glossary

THUNDERCLAP
In Wizard and Glass we learn that the fey realm of Thunderclap sits on the lip of END-WORLD. In Wolves of the Calla, we discover that the dark land of Thunderclap sits just east of the BORDERLANDS, which in turn sit on the eastern edge of MID-WORLD-that was. Thunderclap is the home of the DEVAR-TOI, or Big Prison, where the CRIMSON KING keeps the psychic BREAKERS. The Breakers (who are human) are forced to use their wild talents to erode the BEAMS so that the foundering DARK TOWER will collapse, causing the macroverse to blink out of existence.
- Source: The Dark Tower Glossary

Affecting ≠ Superior or anything else. I only say Macroverse encompassing Dark tower.

 

[Jockey-1337]

It's not an higher form, its a totally different being. And i assume it, Gan Cannot be T0, but TFO can. By the way, Feats of Gan are not assimiled to TFO, BUT we can backup some deduction feat cuz he created everything

If "The Final Other" is a different being, then he is absolutely featless. You cannot powercale him from Gan anymore.
Gan created the multiverse, not "the Final Other".

 

[SweetDao]

Because many of Comics is a contradiction to novels, So, to be consistent, they use a specific type of book, even though Stephen King assumed that everything was supposed to revolve around Dark Tower. For example, the new Cosmologies page considers The comics are like worlds around DT, without real impact, but the statements about the characters can be taken seriously.

Yeah, and that should be changed, because either you accept all of them or none at all, you can't say "that one is canon and that one isn't".

They can do anything. When you are declared as encompassing everything in you mind (scaling on cosmology), created everything (can be extrapolated to omnipotent), and dwelt in a void beyond the void of IT which encompassing Macroverse and dark tower, its a low-low ball to H1A inf meta layers, low ball at H1A+ T1, and can be rea to T0

There is no statement of that, you literally have three lines about that guy, with one of them being directly an antifeat without further information (a tier 0 doesn't "dwell within a Void")

 

[Jockey-1337]

Affecting ≠ Superior or anything else. I only say Macroverse encompassing Dark tower.

5 of 6 Beams were destroyed. And there is no direct info whether they were restored after Roland's life reboot.

 

[Oxonom2962]

Yeah, and that should be changed, because either you accept all of them or none at all, you can't say "that one is canon and that one isn't".

There is no statement of that, you literally have three lines about that guy, with one of them being directly an antifeat without further information (a tier 0 doesn't "dwell within a Void")

Dewlt in a void beyond is not necessary a Antifeats.
In fact, its an Antifeat if there's something in this void, like a concept or either. We only know that the "void" is his mind, cuz Deadlight who are encompassing the entire cosmology are an infinitesimale part of his mind, meaning the "void" is his mind

 

[Oxonom2962]

5 of 6 Beams were destroyed. And there is no direct info whether they were restored after Roland's life reboot.

Anddddd.... ? I hope you know that again, Beams are here to secure the dark tower ? So its not an Antifeats for Macroverse ?

 

[SweetDao]

Dewlt in a void beyond is not necessary a Antifeats.
In fact, its an Antifeat if there's something in this void, like a concept or either. We only know that the "void" is his mind, cuz Deadlight who are encompassing the entire cosmology are an infinitesimale part of his mind, meaning the "void" is his mind

At no point is it stated that the "void" is in his mind. If anything, it says he dwells "in a void beyond this one".

 

[Oxonom2962]

yakub and his children approve of jockey not being allowed to agartha

Jockey is the fraudest guy i've never seen like, reading the novel is not an option bruh

 

[Oxonom2962]

At no point is it stated that the "void" is in his mind. If anything, it says he dwells "in a void beyond this one".

Yeah sweet, its how IT As understood by The Other, given that it is affected by a being, it assumes that this being cannot be prior to it, but necessarily external, therefore it assumes that there is an "Other", and that he's in a void beyond, but in fact, the void who's beyond IT is stated as the Mind of TFO

 

[SweetDao]

Yeah sweet, its how IT As understood by The Other, given that it is affected by a being, it assumes that this being cannot be prior to it, but necessarily external, therefore it assumes that there is an "Other", and that he's in a void beyond, but in fact, the void who's beyond IT is stated as the Mind of TFO

So he "assumed" he isn't even sure there is one?

 

[Jockey-1337]

Jockey is the fraudest guy i've never seen like, reading the novel is not an option bruh

Post counter-arguments or leave the discussion.

Anddddd.... ? I hope you know that again, Beams are here to secure the dark tower ? So its not an Antifeats for Macroverse ?

Macroverse is a part of the Tower. No Tower = Bye Bye Macroverse.

 

[Oxonom2962]

So he "assumed" he isn't even sure there is one?

The Principe is simple, if there's nothing inside you who can affect you, then, its necessarily beyond you, something, or an "Other" one, he's not sure because he considered himself as the ultimate God, and the limit of everything

 

[SweetDao]

The Principe is simple, if there's nothing inside you who can affect you, then, its necessarily beyond you, something, or an "Other" one, he's not sure because he considered himself as the ultimate God, and the limit of everything

So the existence of that "Other" is entirely hypothetical and based on...a more or less baseless conjecture...What?

 

[Oxonom2962]

Post counter-arguments or leave the discussion.



Macroverse is a part of the Tower. No Tower = Bye Bye Macroverse.

Affecting ≠ a part of.
Again and again and Again, its a contradiction to the novel who assume that Macroverse is beyond the tower.

READING THE NOVEL IS NOT AN OPTION

 

[Oxonom2962]

So the existence of that "Other" is entirely hypothetical and based on...a more or less baseless conjecture...What?

Apophatism concept. Inferior being cannot qualify anything about TFO, but the narrator can, and he did.
A power beyond everything, the author of all there was and encompassing everything in his mind.