Anyway, Toby has just decided to be more creative, explosions musn't be with that sound effect, as it was also used for
Omega Flowey beaking the SAVE File. Even then, it not breaking stuff was decided off it not being a real explosion, but a fireball which has different properties (
@Flashlight237 is the one who suggested it to me, try to call him here or something).
There's nothing supporting it being a explosion or a fireball is the issue. That's why I said "
The feat is simply the oven going out of control, overheating and the fire off it spreading around the room and increasing the temperature.", which is way more reasonable and consistent with the damage shown because "said (currently) "small building" explosion/fire
did not even burn the wood table, chair, door or anything close to it."
ISL also isn't a factor, Undyne and Frisk were basically glued to the oven at the time, they must have taken the full yield of the blast here.
You'd still need to take into account that distance and ISL is a factor regardless of it always,
a simillar feat from homelander got downgraded for this even though he was basically also glued to said explosion. (Not a direct example but you get it)
If we wanna be fair, Undertale is pretty limited in terms of graphics, so we should give some more generosity here, as Toby probably just intended for the meteor to be already so fast that it has fire!
But heard that other verses got nuked off a similar arguments, so idk here.
Well, I doubt toby wanted this considering he made the same "catching on fire because its too fast" attack be slower than regular attacks that
don't catch on fire. If he was tryna portray realistic physics with that fire then every attack moving a faster px per second than KnightKnight's meteors would be on fire, regardless it's pretty unsubstantiated to begin with so theres nothing really to prove this intention and just contradictions exist so.
It doesn't, though?
Like we still hear noises of metal being hit, with Frisk and Alphys literally bounching at each of the punches, that metal must be still strong enough to hold in such an energy if it can withstand power that can make people that are are pretty distant still bounce and stuff. I don't think that Toby's comment means much, as it could just mean that MTT held back so that he'd avoid destroying more.
Mettaton is in a hole surrounded by the rest of the wall of the lab and he is
acting like everything is real as thats Alphys's plan, do you think he couldn't just... punch the walls around him that isn't the fake wall? It's way more logical than assuming that, Alphys made a hole in his wall, put Mettaton inside it, and for some ungodly reason constructed a wall of the same exact depth as her regular walls. Is there any proof/support for this assumption? No? Then the feat is cooked to begin with, there's no evidence for any of it.
The current calculation makes no sense aswell, if he was beating that wall with enough force to make that much sound and even "shake the lab" apparently, the wall would be fragmented since the first hit, not pulverized after eight, that's just a blatantly wrong usage of the destruction values. The pulverization value for steel is almost 5x higher than it's fragmentation value.
Outside the fact that I've already explained why I think 15 seconds is fair, you saying "nuh huh" isn't a refute, you gotta say why it's invalid. Even then, we simply can... divide the feat by the amount of vines we see on the elevator? Like I don't think it's that hard to do so, we already did this with Alastor's LS feat of crushing Pentious' ship.
The point is that we
don't have an actual real valid timeframe to use and we
don't know how many vines were there. It's pretty much impossible to calculate this without making unnecessary assumptions for the sake of overscaling the feat unless you have some magical way of finding out both of those without assuming stuff, if so sure.
This means literally nothing, as monsters can indeed use stuff based on their body parts without being said body parts to begin with. Papyrus uses bones despite being a skeleton, but does this mean he attacks you with his arms and legs? No!
They're different stuff from his body, and
it's even shown in the Asriel pre-fight that the bones he uses are different from his body. Undyne same, her attacks aren't some abstract showing of her just hitting you with a spear as if it's a baseball bat, but
it's stuff she creates and throws (plus she uses it while trapped with Papyrus still in the link of before to solidify it not being linked to the physical body). Why is this important? I already said above that Mettaton uses
6 legs at once in some of these attacks, the most fair interpretation is him just using leg-shaped bullets rather than it being some abstraction of him kicking you many times with all of those legs of his (unless he's a spider or something, but he clearly has just 2 of those). Also, him being unable to use leg attacks is mostly likely just be a weakness of being unable to use leg-shaped bullets if his actual legs get lost, as otherwise you get MTT EX having literally 6 legs which is... yeah no.
You are straight up ignoring the point. Sans and Papyrus summon bones as attacks and it's shown they can manipulate it's size to either small or big so it's obvious the intent is that they aren't their actual real body. Mettaton's legs are literally supposed to be... well his legs. Saying Mettaton can create legs with over 6x the size of his real legs is nothing short of ridiculous. Monsters also each have their own attack ways, just because some are projectiles doesn't mean EVERYTHING is a projectile. The whole thing with stuff like Mettaton's kicks is it meant to be representations not to be taken literal since, as you even agreeed on a previous point, Undertale is a very limited game in terms of graphics and movement due to how it's battle system works.
You have a flexing competition with Aaron during his fight so his attacks represent him flexing, this doesn't mean he has 3 arms cause you can see 3 arms on screen now. The legs attacks are meant to represent him kicking, not to a literal degree of course since he doesn't have 6 legs, but still him kicking,
its the reason he can't use any more leg attacks after he loses his legs, or why he can't just remake his own legs for his body after they explode out of his body and needs Alphys to create new ones. Mettaton can't "create legs", that's not part of his magic, do you not understand the implications of thinking
Mettaton, the ghost that wanted a body his entire life before Alphys can create robot body parts? We gotta stop taking everything on-screen literally when it comes to stuff like this. The pixel scaling, and the entire idea of the feat is inconsistent and wrong with what the story is tryna show.
This point has to be the silliest shit of all time, because Mettaton
can indeed use parts of the EX body together with the Box one, and
he also says that the NEO Body is a "less photogenic version" of the EX one, which really implies they all have the same composition, especially when
Mettaton and Alphys don't really say that Robots in Undertale are made of anything else besides metal and magic. Plus, for the point of "Mettaton EX must not be made of Metal because Frisk cannot dent normal MTT" is the most insane cope of all time, like you gotta argue that
any feat beyond 10-A for people below 255 DEF is invalid for this to even work, Feats > Statements after a certain point, if we say that Frisk cannot harm Mettaton specifically because of the latter being metallic, even 9-C would be thrown in the window, and I don't think all the various Tier 9 feats are all below a simple piece of steel. The easiest interpretation is that Mettaton Box's metal is just really strudy. Like what do you think that MTT EX could be made of, genuinely.
Him "using parts of EX's body" while in box one doesn't mean they are of the same composition? And this is not a "cap" or "anti-feat", I'm not trying to downgrade Frisk to 10-A, this is something called
narrative. The game explicitly and repeatedly states Mettaton Box’s invulnerability
is because of his body being made out of metal while Mettaton EX is vulnerable to Frisk’s attacks. Saying "He's also made out of steel" is the most unsupported assumption that creates a narrative inconsistency rather than resolving one. "Feats > statements" doesn’t apply here at all, especially when the "statements" are the narrative of the story.
The electricity bolts in the fight also are "barely fast" compared to the other attacks (and before I hear another "if they're slow then they're not beyond Superhuman speed", then try to apply the same shit to Asriel's Immeasurable stuff or almost all of Deltarune's light/sound based attacks, I dare you), so this point is kinda moot.
This doesn't really debunk my point but I wanna say that if you wanna go by that then getting KE is even more unusable here. You are admitting that the speed of the stuff in-battle is extremely inconsistent and incredibly contradictory with the "real magic" that the wiki currently uses (which is the main way the calc uses to get it's speed)
The rule exists mostly to avoid saying stuff like "a human running at Relativistic speed makes by chain-scaling a whole verse Tier 6 despite everything else is Tier 8 tops", we do not apply this to stuff of 200 kg or above (for some reason, kinda think this cut is arbitrary as **** but I am not gonna change wiki rules), but the KE page also says that "Calculating the energy necessary for moving large structures at great speeds, using the speed things move as a secondary effect of an attack, throwing objects at great speeds etc. are all acceptable methods of quantifying a characters power regardless.", something that fits Mettaton's feat to a T given that he's moving legs that fast to attack you, lmao.
"
Kinetic Energy based on Movement Speed is case by case" is the literally first phrase of said rule by the way. Taking out of the OP:
This is one of the cases where it's completely invalid to do this as there's nothing making it clear that the speed of the movement is the reason his attacks are so strong, in-fact, the complete opposite happens, the "supersonic legs" do the same exact damage as
legs that are barely moving, Kinetic Energy has nothing and was never meant to do with the potency of the attack in this case so using it to calculate the potency of the attack is nothing short of weird.
Just because it isn't straight up said to you on the page word by word doesn't mean that said fictional work CONTRADICTING THE IDEA that more speed equates more power doesn't make KE invalid, this should be common sense that not everything is said on the page and you gotta apply a bit of logic when making an argument aswell. Being disingeneous and going "the page doesn't say that" doesn't work is cause the same fight in question has that direct contradiction for speed equating to power not being the case so using it KE to begin with
is wrong.
Other CGMs also already explained
to you why LS doesn't work regardless and I don't wanna repeat their words. The whole feat breaks the rules for KE.
This is a completely different attack than the one being talked about.
