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Helluva Fast Downgrades (Hellaverse Tier 5 Removal)

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Remember: I am fine with downgrades happening. But this isn't the argument for it.
Oh yeah btw the wiki doesn't allow contradictions like that for scaling so a 5A attack becoming 50× stronger but being stated to not even be city level wouldn't be allowed,unless of course you can prove that statement doesn't come from á valid source but considering that wasn't your go too argument i doubt you can prove that
I see, you think Hazbin Hotel is an audiobook! But we uh, have visuals for these things too.
 
Oh yeah btw the wiki doesn't allow contradictions like that for scaling so a 5A attack becoming 50× stronger but being stated to not even be city level wouldn't be allowed,unless of course you can prove that statement doesn't come from á valid source but considering that wasn't your go too argument i doubt you can prove that
We used to do that for Dragon Ball, but now we simply say that the base forms are x0.0025 times baseline if a SSJ3 performs a High 3-A feat instead of randomly saying "in Dragon Ball a x400 boost is in actuality an infinite one".
 
Why do we trust Carmine again? She's the only reason we even have this problem because she's the one who stated that it would only blow up half the city, but they were all surprised, every single person including Lucifers OWN DAUGHTER about the power that he has. So why would we trust Carmine to actually know what would happen? Not even Vox was expecting what happened in that infamous moment, and Carmilla is ultimately just another mortal soul, so why do we believe her word so much again?
 
No clue why Dragon Ball is being brought up, by the way.
Why do we trust Carmine again? She's the only reason we even have this problem because she's the one who stated that it would only blow up half the city, but they were all surprised, every single person including Lucifers OWN DAUGHTER about the power that he has. So why would we trust Carmine to actually know what would happen? Not even Vox was expecting what happened in that infamous moment, and Carmilla is ultimately just another mortal soul, so why do we believe her word so much again?
She made it? But then again, she certainly didn't know what was gonna power it.
 
No clue why Dragon Ball is being brought up, by the way.

She made it? But then again, she certainly didn't know what was gonna power it.
That's exactly my problem, she only made the weapon, literally nobody had any clue about the power source, not even Charlie expected something like that, now sure I guess she didn't know it was him in there. But even then, a human soul knowing the power of Lucifer?

Just doesn't really seem likely, she really could only go off of him being stronger than any overlord, which BY THE WAY, means that the overcharge resulted from the fact that it was really only meant to channel so much energy, the amount that she could theorize. We literally have no reason to believe that Carmilla knows the full extent to Lucifers power, or that it was even supposed to be him in there.
 
Its a rule.

Hazbin upgrades? We compare it to Dragon Ball. Hazbin downgrades? We compare it to Dragon Ball.
Lmfao

It's time for you to argue to keep your tier 5 Adam, by the way.
That's exactly my problem, she only made the weapon, literally nobody had any clue about the power source, not even Charlie expected something like that, now sure I guess she didn't know it was him in there. But even then, a human soul knowing the power of Lucifer?

Just doesn't really seem likely, she really could only go off of him being stronger than any overlord, which BY THE WAY, means that the overcharge resulted from the fact that it was really only meant to channel so much energy, the amount that she could theorize. We literally have no reason to believe that Carmilla knows the full extent to Lucifers power, or that it was even supposed to be him in there.
You know for once you're speaking sense.
 
Just doesn't really seem likely, she really could only go off of him being stronger than any overlord, which BY THE WAY, means that the overcharge resulted from the fact that it was really only meant to channel so much energy, the amount that she could theorize.
I meant this as in its support for the planetary (magic) of overlords, which is a little shaky still to me
 
I mean sure I'll give Adam part a shot. It's pretty obvious. By listing off his feats.

Adam took NO SELLED and instantly fought back after a direct hit in the spine by Horse Lucifer's double kick which would likely be 4x anything Base Lucifer can do with his punches



Adam again takes a punch from Lucifer WHILE OFF GUARD meaning lower durability. If you go frame by frame his eye that was directly punched is not injured...



Lastly and probably the best feat of Adam. We see an ANGERED, BLOODLUSTED, TRANSFORMED Lucifer using his MAGIC to coat his fists with FIRE landing A DOZEN OF PUNCHES AT ADAM'S FACE DIRECTLY.



And Adam gets up in LESS THAN 10 SECONDS.

I want to mention he got a nose bleed and bruise from the first surprise attack, meaning this WHOLE beatdown only gave him a BLACKEYE as an additional injury. So what does math say?

1 + 1 + 10 = 12 PUNCHES TO THE FACE + 2 To the SPINE. With 10 of them coming from a TRANSFORMED LUCIFER and 1 being a surprise attack and the double kick coming from a Horse Lucifer

And you except me to believe Adam is a few tiers below him?
 
I would like to point out that Carmine may not have fully made the weapon from scratch, it seems Vox already had some blueprints ready
HHs2e6-Vox-shows-Carmilla-his-plans.webp

 
I disagree.
All of this explicitly breaks our Kinetic Energy guidelines, and there have been other similar feats in other verses that have been rejected for these very reasons.
To be clear, the feat in no way contradicts the kinetic energy requirements, much less the narrative. It's a weapon powered by the energy of a Seraphin capable of shattering a shield made by six other Seraphim, with the beam of this weapon crossing an interplanetary distance, expanding the surrounding air in such a way that it forms clouds larger than the planet itself upon colliding with the shield. Furthermore, just colliding with the shield, which is more than a planet away, generates seismic energy so strong that it shakes the planet itself. And upon destroying the shield, it generates a second, even larger, and even faster cloud expansion.
Agree with OP. The beam not actually doing shit to heaven is really the nail in the coffin for me. Watching.
How so? The planet was nearly pierced by the beam, suffered a major earthquake, and even if it wasn't destroyed, that doesn't invalidate the feat, because Heaven, which is literally the first place of creation, may simply be more resistant than an ordinary planet, especially since its gates survived the beam even though they were catapulted and damaged (which, incidentally, was considered the most impressive thing by viewers, not an interplanetary beam, but the breaking of the gate).
 
How so? The planet was nearly pierced by the beam, suffered a major earthquake, and even if it wasn't destroyed, that doesn't invalidate the feat, because Heaven, which is literally the first place of creation, may simply be more resistant than an ordinary planet, especially since its gates survived the beam even though they were catapulted and damaged (which, incidentally, was considered the most impressive thing by viewers, not an interplanetary beam, but the breaking of the gate).
Angelic Steel is also consistently a god tier material so this tracks
 
I disagree.

To be clear, the feat in no way contradicts the kinetic energy requirements, much less the narrative. It's a weapon powered by the energy of a Seraphin capable of shattering a shield made by six other Seraphim, with the beam of this weapon crossing an interplanetary distance, expanding the surrounding air in such a way that it forms clouds larger than the planet itself upon colliding with the shield. Furthermore, just colliding with the shield, which is more than a planet away, generates seismic energy so strong that it shakes the planet itself. And upon destroying the shield, it generates a second, even larger, and even faster cloud expansion.

How so? The planet was nearly pierced by the beam, suffered a major earthquake, and even if it wasn't destroyed, that doesn't invalidate the feat, because Heaven, which is literally the first place of creation, may simply be more resistant than an ordinary planet, especially since its gates survived the beam even though they were catapulted and damaged (which, incidentally, was considered the most impressive thing by viewers, not an interplanetary beam, but the breaking of the gate).
What if heaven just has a really big hole or is a series of sky islands? Semi-genuine question. What if Vox just accidentally threaded the needle?
 
5-A comes from a 40.46-second chrage time of the Might of Lilith and the KE shockwave effecting the clouds I believe it was.

The beam in this instance was charging for 1852.82 seconds. That is a difference of 45.79x.
These are all irrelevant, these simply have to do with upscaling/downscaling the calcs themselves, which has nothing to do with what this thread is arguing.
Are you honestly claiming one of these shots, especially the one that was charging for longer, was multiple TRILLIONS of times weaker than the other?
No, I didn't say that at any point, in fact I am specifically going off of the currently accepted opinion that the overheating was even stronger. But the fact that the much stronger "overheating" explosion was described as only destroying specifically half of Pentagram City is what specifically downgrades the much weaker blast, which as I stated, is consistent with the visuals of said weaker blast that was supposedly 5-B barely doing any major damage to Heaven besides destroying a few off-screen buildings, and you cannot argue "AP =/= DC" in that case because the Might of Lilith was utilized specifically for it's Destructive Capacity. Again, if AP was all that was needed, Vox finding a way to teleport a machine up to Heaven that doesn't have the same range but the same AP would have been much, much more convenient and less time consuming than building a weapon which spans the distance.
Hell, we aren't even given HOW it would destroy half the city, is it an explosion, a shot that goes through the planet, a shot that goes through the planet and is an explosion? Does it atomize? Vaporize? Frag?
Again, I explained this to OrangeGuy, but this is a classic example of Occam's Razor. A machine overheating and the wording surrounding it's aftermath clearly implies a standard explosion, our explosive formulae hinge on inputting the radius of the blast and the blast specifically decreases or increases depending on how large the size of the explosion is. Inputting a quarter of Pentagram City as the radius of the explosion would not yield anywhere near Tier 5 results. AP objectively does equal DC in this case, sorry. It also doesn't even matter anyway, as even if we were able to get Pentagram City's mass and apply any of those destruction values to it (which would require countless assumptions on the material most of the city is made of), even the vaporization value would not yield close to Tier 5 results, the only way to do that would be through subatomic destruction, but alas, you cannot apply subatomic destruction without sufficient evidence that is what it's going on. If you have evidence the Might of Lilith subatomically destroys things in its path, I'll be glad to hear it.
Attack Potency does not equal Destructive Capacity, people. There are much better ways to argue against tier 5 than THAT.
It's starting to get really frustrating how people are endlessly repeating this exact same rebuttal despite how many times I've addressed it. You cannot apply this argument for explosions, because again, their yield hinges on us knowing their size. For the thousandth goddamn time, explosions do not yield billions of times more energy than the destruction they cause, that's not how any explosion feats in fiction that we have calculations for work.
 
These are all irrelevant, these simply have to do with upscaling/downscaling the calcs themselves, which has nothing to do with what this thread is arguing.

No, I didn't say that at any point, in fact I am specifically going off of the currently accepted opinion that the overheating was even stronger. But the fact that the much stronger "overheating" explosion was described as only destroying specifically half of Pentagram City is what specifically downgrades the much weaker blast, which as I stated, is consistent with the visuals of said weaker blast that was supposedly 5-B barely doing any major damage to Heaven besides destroying a few off-screen buildings, and you cannot argue "AP =/= DC" in that case because the Might of Lilith was utilized specifically for it's Destructive Capacity. Again, if AP was all that was needed, Vox finding a way to teleport a machine up to Heaven that doesn't have the same range but the same AP would have been much, much more convenient and less time consuming than building a weapon which spans the distance.

Again, I explained this to OrangeGuy, but this is a classic example of Occam's Razor. A machine overheating and the wording surrounding it's aftermath clearly implies a standard explosion, our explosive formulae hinge on inputting the radius of the blast and the blast specifically decreases or increases depending on how large the size of the explosion is. Inputting a quarter of Pentagram City as the radius of the explosion would not yield anywhere near Tier 5 results. AP objectively does equal DC in this case, sorry.

It's starting to get really frustrating how people are endlessly repeating this exact same rebuttal despite how many times I've addressed it. You cannot apply this argument for explosions, because again, their yield hinges on us knowing their size.
All these arguments have one massive issue, you're saying that the weapon overcharged on a lesser amount of energy even though it fired so many planetary ones before.

I also can't help but want to bring up the fact that the beam itself wasn't much more than like 12 ft tall or maybe 20, so the beam itself isn't even that big, just incredibly long ranged, the shockwave and shaking heaven are byproducts of a beam that isn't even thicker than a train, so the high AP/low DC still works just fine for Angelic power
 
Just calc the destruction of half of Pentagram city based on Hell having at least 50 billion people, divide it by 14, problem solved.
 
These are all irrelevant, these simply have to do with upscaling/downscaling the calcs themselves, which has nothing to do with what this thread is arguing.

No, I didn't say that at any point, in fact I am specifically going off of the currently accepted opinion that the overheating was even stronger. But the fact that the much stronger "overheating" explosion was described as only destroying specifically half of Pentagram City is what specifically downgrades the much weaker blast--
Gonna stop you riiiiight there. Now, pause. Scroll up. Carmilla being a reliable source has been getting dunked on.

Even the basic lowest calculations for the shot to heaven is High 6-A. What do you prefer, Stone? A statement from a debatably reliable source who doesn't even know what was powering the damn thing, or the on-screen feat that if you watch the episode right before you see happen.
 
Just calc the destruction of half of Pentagram city based on Hell having at least 50 billion people, divide it by 14, problem solved.
I lowkey think its a good idea for Overlords and etc to scale to this end which is like Island level since its more consistent than Planetary whole verse

I disagree with OP btw
 
What if heaven just has a really big hole or is a series of sky islands? Semi-genuine question. What if Vox just accidentally threaded the needle?
I didn't understand your question. But Vox was explicitly aiming at the gates of heaven; he didn't want to kill anyone with the shot, but rather impact heaven with his firepower, suggesting surrender, while simultaneously gaining popularity in hell, which is yet another argument against the proposal.
 
Angelic Steel is also consistently a god tier material so this tracks
Actually, I might be wrong, but wasn't Sir Pentious's airship reinforced with angelic steel? I always thought that was the reason his soul wasn't extinguished.
 
I didn't understand your question. But Vox was explicitly aiming at the gates of heaven; he didn't want to kill anyone with the shot, but rather impact heaven with his firepower, suggesting surrender, while simultaneously gaining popularity in hell, which is yet another argument against the proposal.
Basically heaven is built like doughnut, and he just shot through it, but it was more a joke than a real consideration, as it relies on too many what ifs
 
All these arguments have one massive issue, you're saying that the weapon overcharged on a lesser amount of energy even though it fired so many planetary ones before.
Did you even read the thing you're responding to? I specifically explained that this is not what I'm arguing at all. I specifically am agreeing with the notion that the overheated explosion is stronger than the initial, supposedly 5-B blasts it fired ta Heaven. The issue is that the stronger explosion would not have even fully destroyed Pentagram City, consistent with the showings of the weaker supposedly 5-B energy blasts fired at Heaven barely destroying any of it beyond vaguely a few buildings. The latter quite clearly breaks KE rules, this is not a case of "AP =/= DC", and feats have been rejected for this very reason in the past. Unless you wanna argue Omni-Man here is yielding thousands of times more energy than the destruction he causes by flying. If you think "AP =/= DC" in that situation too, go ahead and make a CRT for it.

I also can't help but want to bring up the fact that the beam itself wasn't much more than like 12 ft tall or maybe 20, so the beam itself isn't even that big, just incredibly long ranged, the shockwave and shaking heaven are byproducts of a beam that isn't even thicker than a train, so the high AP/low DC still works just fine for Angelic power
...huh? That's...literally not how super weapons work, at all. The first Death Star was only around 120 km in diameter, and Alderaan's diameter was 12500 km, much less the distance the Death Star was from it. Hell, the beam fired from the Death Star is considerably less small than the Death Star's diameter. I could list countless more examples, but this is not proof of anything other than precisely proving my side of the argument; the Might of Lilith's range and destructive capacity was what it was weaponized for, it makes no sense for the AP to be several orders of magnitudes greater.
 
Gonna stop you riiiiight there. Now, pause. Scroll up. Carmilla being a reliable source has been getting dunked on.
I saw, and am in the process of responding to those now. But I'll get into why this is bogus shortly here.
Even the basic lowest calculations for the shot to heaven is High 6-A. What do you prefer, Stone?
I prefer abiding by KE guidelines and prioritizing the destruction caused by the explosion rather than the apparent kinetic energy. In this case, that would be actually calculating destroying half of Pentagram City, not something supposedly weaker that yielded billions upon trillions of times more energy. And again, the supposed "High 6-A" shot still barely destroys anything beyond a few buildings in Heaven. "AP =/= DC" is not applicable here by this wiki's very own guidelines.
A statement from a debatably reliable source who doesn't even know what was powering the damn thing,
Irrelevant, Carmilla is still fully aware of how powerful angels are. Her not being made aware of the power source is like saying the U.S Military shouldn't be trusted on how strong a weapon from a foreign country is because they aren't entirely aware of what powers it.
or the on-screen feat that if you watch the episode right before you see happen.
You mean the "on-screen feat" that barely does any notable damage to Heaven, again, directly violating KE guidelines? If you disagree with the example in that page, go ahead and make a CRT overturning not applying KE even when the damage caused contradicts it.
 
I saw, and am in the process of responding to those now. But I'll get into why this is bogus shortly here.

I prefer abiding by KE guidelines and prioritizing the destruction caused by the explosion rather than the apparent kinetic energy. In this case, that would be actually calculating destroying half of Pentagram City, not something supposedly weaker that yielded billions upon trillions of times more energy. And again, the supposed "High 6-A" shot still barely destroys anything beyond a few buildings in Heaven. "AP =/= DC" is not applicable here by this wiki's very own guidelines.

Irrelevant, Carmilla is still fully aware of how powerful angels are. Her not being made aware of the power source is like saying the U.S Military shouldn't be trusted on how strong a weapon from a foreign country is because they aren't entirely aware of how strong it is.

You mean the "on-screen feat" that barely does any notable damage to Heaven, again, directly violating KE guidelines? If you disagree with the example in that page, go ahead and make a CRT overturning applying KE even when the damage caused contradicts it.
Thank you for telling me "I did not actually read the blog beyond the 5-A stuff"
 
I know this is kind of unpopular, but Hazbin Hotel is an audiovisual program, so I think we have to consider the visuals as well. Like, literally every time Heaven is shown in the first and second seasons, from far away and up close, from above or below, it's smaller than Pentagram City, which also has a larger population than Heaven. Like, you can't even say it's because it's very far away (even though it is), because Heaven is still below the red pentagram above everything.

I know most people disagree, but given that the main argument is half the destruction of Pentagram City, it's good to mention this.
 
I would like to point out that Carmine may not have fully made the weapon from scratch, it seems Vox already had some blueprints ready
HHs2e6-Vox-shows-Carmilla-his-plans.webp


This doesn't mean she has zero clue how powerful it is. The only reason Vox even had the idea to design a weapon like the MoL was because of Carmilla informing her fellow Overlords on the potency of angelic steel. Again, this would be like claiming the U.S Military shouldn't be trusted on how strong foreign weapons are if they aren't 100% certain on what powers it.
 
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