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STAGE SELECT: PRISM TOWER
MATCH RULES
| Isamu {16 kilotons}: 1 (Kachon123) | Ye Shunguang {10.68 kilotons}: 5 (Rex_Eckles, Sooshirohl, Naito, AnAverageUsername, Jerry59) | Incon: 0 |
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Town-level Tiersetter Tournament, Round 3: Isamu vs Ye Shunguang
- Thread starter Naito-desu
- Start date
STAGE SELECT: PRISM TOWER
MATCH RULES
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Alright both have comparable AP here, it's just that Child Emperor has more versatility with his equipment
What's stopping the kid from gassing Shunguang
What's stopping the kid from gassing Shunguang
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Ye Shunguang has versatile ways of attack, Vital View makes her able to react properly to spam, and she has a myriad of danmaku paired with teleportation to fight him back
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Versatile ways to attack, yes, but not versatile equipment. Isamu has a bunch of gear that grant him the ability to shock people, ice manipulation, and poisonous gas to kill multiple monsters. He has more variety, if you know what I mean.
Also you gotta restrict that High 6-C umbrella
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i'll type a lengthier response later since i'm in class atm but i'd need to know the range of this stuff, cause shunguang in character fights from ranged and she's more than willing to just camp out in the air and spam her insane danmaku. also purification should likely help cure her of any negative ailments considering miasma has similar constitutions to poison gas
also, considering SBA she likely wouldn't go for this in character but i don't think isamu has any answers to space cutting. i assume he'd just die if he got hit by that
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I'm just going off of the profiles, I didn't see much of all that in the PnA section. Either that or im blind. I mean I am, but yknow.
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Isamu can fly with his backpack. He can also freeze her solid. He has the underdog men bots that he can spawn, each being stronger than Shunguang and each being able to self destruct with AP far above their normal level. If she gets caught in that it might be wraps. He has several homing rapid fire attacks that don't stop until the target stops breathing as well as various defensive options such as his layered transparent shield and umbrella shield (just to name a few). Each of his backpack melee weapons can attack on their own without Isamu needing to put input and they're powerful enough to one-shot characters who scale above 16 kilotons.
I don't think there's much Shunguang can do here to defeat Isamu besides maybe a spatial cut, although the chances she hits that before she gets caught and restrained within his birdlime shotgun is very low.
I don't think there's much Shunguang can do here to defeat Isamu besides maybe a spatial cut, although the chances she hits that before she gets caught and restrained within his birdlime shotgun is very low.
Jerry59
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Freezing likely isn’t his first move, he specifically uses it on ENW because of how its body works and I doubt he could pull it off here in time before the bullet hell hits him. Additionally, since they start 50 meters apart and it’s in-character for Shunguang to range-spam(?), it’s not entirely impossible for her to react to it. The rapid-fire tanks and birdlime shotgun shots can clash with Shunguang’s own impressive danmaku, but she can also call down a rain of swords to quickly shut them down (and like the way Isamu uses the tanks seems to imply they require some setup but idk). Transparent films only work once before she realizes the obvious and starts attacking from different angles, which is made easier by the fact that she can also create the swords out of thin air and control them around. And if Isamu really tries to go melee, he risks getting tagged by hundreds of blades.
Fighting multiple underdog men is concerning however, but I don’t really see them being that much of a threat given how much better Shunguang’s mobility and range are. Being stronger is really just one advantage when you’re trying not to eventually get overwhelmed by the sheer density of the bullet hell she can engender just by waving her sword.
Fighting multiple underdog men is concerning however, but I don’t really see them being that much of a threat given how much better Shunguang’s mobility and range are. Being stronger is really just one advantage when you’re trying not to eventually get overwhelmed by the sheer density of the bullet hell she can engender just by waving her sword.
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She seems to have better range, LS, and confirmed stamina too.
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okay, finally have time to type out a full length response
isamu does have the general stat edge here. he's stronger in AP (albeit only by about 1.5x), and although i don't know where exactly he scales in LS, even at the low end since his profile says he's class G with his equipment he should still be marginally stronger than her. with that being said, his AP advantage is small enough to where it doesn't make too much of a difference, plus shunguang can boost her own damage as well as being able to just bypass his resistance/durability with certain attacks anyways so it doesn't really matter. as for LS, while it would be useful if he managed to get his hands on shunguang, the issue is that i don't really see that being possible at all with how mobile she is (more on that later)
all of isamu's options for incap like his stun and freezing seem very limited in range, which is going to be an issue considering y'know...shunguang can fly. considering the starting distance, she's just going to immediately fly up and pelt him with hundreds upon hundreds of swords, and he's going to be immediately forced onto the defensive. unless he can maintain his defenses while flying up to try and get in close, the second he drops any of his defenses he's just going to immediately get turned into a pincushion. shunguang could also just, yknow, bypass his defenses entirely via her space cutting
even if she gets say, poisoned for instance, her aura alone is potent enough to instantly purify surrounding miasma, so she'd just cure herself of it instantly. if isamu somehow even gets close enough to even go for attacks, shunguang just dodges his attacks with vital view, gives herself a ridiculous perception amp and then proceeds to just pummel him even harder. she could also probably just absorb any energy-based attacks he tries using since the qingming sword can absorb energy
this feels like a very clear cut shunguang W to me
isamu does have the general stat edge here. he's stronger in AP (albeit only by about 1.5x), and although i don't know where exactly he scales in LS, even at the low end since his profile says he's class G with his equipment he should still be marginally stronger than her. with that being said, his AP advantage is small enough to where it doesn't make too much of a difference, plus shunguang can boost her own damage as well as being able to just bypass his resistance/durability with certain attacks anyways so it doesn't really matter. as for LS, while it would be useful if he managed to get his hands on shunguang, the issue is that i don't really see that being possible at all with how mobile she is (more on that later)
shunguang can too, and from the looks of it i'd argue that she's probably way more mobile in the air than isamu is, considering she has multiple ways of flying and transporting herself around
i'd need to know how the freezing in particular works, cause his profile doesn't really say anything about it
it shouldn't be that hard for her to keep out of their range given the fact that she can fly. assuming they scale to the 16 KT AP value, they wouldn't be marginally stronger to the point of shunguang getting completely overwhelmed. even then, she could just dispatch them very easily with spatial cuts anyways
shunguang just fires off her hundreds of swords to counter the homing attacks, considering they can also move to her will and basically lock in on opponents. the defensive options can just be bypassed with spatial cutting
cool, but shunguang's not going to be fighting in melee. she's just going to fly up and spam her insane danmaku, and she's basically going to force isamu to have to come to her
all of isamu's options for incap like his stun and freezing seem very limited in range, which is going to be an issue considering y'know...shunguang can fly. considering the starting distance, she's just going to immediately fly up and pelt him with hundreds upon hundreds of swords, and he's going to be immediately forced onto the defensive. unless he can maintain his defenses while flying up to try and get in close, the second he drops any of his defenses he's just going to immediately get turned into a pincushion. shunguang could also just, yknow, bypass his defenses entirely via her space cutting
even if she gets say, poisoned for instance, her aura alone is potent enough to instantly purify surrounding miasma, so she'd just cure herself of it instantly. if isamu somehow even gets close enough to even go for attacks, shunguang just dodges his attacks with vital view, gives herself a ridiculous perception amp and then proceeds to just pummel him even harder. she could also probably just absorb any energy-based attacks he tries using since the qingming sword can absorb energy
this feels like a very clear cut shunguang W to me
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I’ll start with Shunguang’s danmaku. Isamu has multiple, reliable counters to this. For one, he has his own danmaku through his rapid-fire weapons, which would allow him to directly contest and overwhelm incoming fire with superior AP. On top of that, he has access to an omni-directional umbrella shield capable of blocking attacks from all angles, as well as his transparent film shield, which can be worn like a cape and fully wrap around his body for added protection.
Beyond direct defenses, Isamu’s offense and battlefield control are something that I'm not sure Shunguang has an answe to. He can deploy dozens of turrets, both melee-oriented and rapid-fire ranged variants, all of which possess enough AP to one-shot opponents who already scale above Shunguang. While Shunguang’s flight and mobility make her difficult to tag directly against most opponents, Isamu has flight himself and that still doesn’t solve the core issue: she is being pressured from too many directions at once.
Isamu can field up to 25 Underdog Men bots, all of which are extremely agile and capable of swarming her mid-air. Each of these bots can self-destruct in a large radius, and a single successful explosion could outright KO Shunguang. At the same time, his ranged turrets would be continuously firing on her from a distance. While her danmaku is impressive, she is still a single person. There is a hard cap on how many threats she can track, evade, and counter at the same time.
Shunguang can not afford to ignore even one of Isamu’s units. Every bot on the field has the potential to deal serious or lethal damage. At the same time, she also can’t safely divert her attention from Isamu himself, as his backpack has a wide array of ranged weapons and melee tools. Isamu is also fully capable of flight via his backpack, meaning Shunguang has no inherent advantage by staying airborne.
On top of all this, Shunguang doesn't have answers to Isamu’s status effects and crowd-control options. She has no resistance to poison, freezing, or being immobilized by like birdlime (which has scattershot with the shotgun variant and homing with the missiles), all while being pursued by dozens of autonomous units coordinated by a tactical genius. Isamu specializes at setting up scenarios that force mistakes, and once Shunguang is clipped even once, that hit will immediately be followed by a sustained onslaught. A single opening is all Isamu needs.
Shunguang’s spatial cuts do not really swing the fight in her favor. Isamu doesn't rely on a single linear approach or cqc commitment that spatial cuts can easily punish. He fights with automation, disposable units, and ranged pressure.
Any attempt to use spatial cuts is immediately complicated by the sheer number of independent targets on the field. Turrets, Underdog Men bots, and other deployables can be used to bait, trigger, or possibly even outright tank spatial attacks, allowing Isamu to analyze their properties and adjust accordingly with his sensors. Even if spatial cuts can destroy individual units, Isamu can afford those losses far more easily than Shunguang can afford taking even one clean hit in return.
On top of this, Isamu’s shields provide him with multiple layers of defense, and his ability to maintain distance with flight and ranged combat further limits the effectiveness of spatial cuts as a finisher. In practice, spatial cuts are just another thing that forces Shunguang to divide her attention toward, while Isamu continues to flood the battlefield with threats she cannot ignore.
I'll be voting for Isamu.
Beyond direct defenses, Isamu’s offense and battlefield control are something that I'm not sure Shunguang has an answe to. He can deploy dozens of turrets, both melee-oriented and rapid-fire ranged variants, all of which possess enough AP to one-shot opponents who already scale above Shunguang. While Shunguang’s flight and mobility make her difficult to tag directly against most opponents, Isamu has flight himself and that still doesn’t solve the core issue: she is being pressured from too many directions at once.
Isamu can field up to 25 Underdog Men bots, all of which are extremely agile and capable of swarming her mid-air. Each of these bots can self-destruct in a large radius, and a single successful explosion could outright KO Shunguang. At the same time, his ranged turrets would be continuously firing on her from a distance. While her danmaku is impressive, she is still a single person. There is a hard cap on how many threats she can track, evade, and counter at the same time.
Shunguang can not afford to ignore even one of Isamu’s units. Every bot on the field has the potential to deal serious or lethal damage. At the same time, she also can’t safely divert her attention from Isamu himself, as his backpack has a wide array of ranged weapons and melee tools. Isamu is also fully capable of flight via his backpack, meaning Shunguang has no inherent advantage by staying airborne.
On top of all this, Shunguang doesn't have answers to Isamu’s status effects and crowd-control options. She has no resistance to poison, freezing, or being immobilized by like birdlime (which has scattershot with the shotgun variant and homing with the missiles), all while being pursued by dozens of autonomous units coordinated by a tactical genius. Isamu specializes at setting up scenarios that force mistakes, and once Shunguang is clipped even once, that hit will immediately be followed by a sustained onslaught. A single opening is all Isamu needs.
Shunguang’s spatial cuts do not really swing the fight in her favor. Isamu doesn't rely on a single linear approach or cqc commitment that spatial cuts can easily punish. He fights with automation, disposable units, and ranged pressure.
Any attempt to use spatial cuts is immediately complicated by the sheer number of independent targets on the field. Turrets, Underdog Men bots, and other deployables can be used to bait, trigger, or possibly even outright tank spatial attacks, allowing Isamu to analyze their properties and adjust accordingly with his sensors. Even if spatial cuts can destroy individual units, Isamu can afford those losses far more easily than Shunguang can afford taking even one clean hit in return.
On top of this, Isamu’s shields provide him with multiple layers of defense, and his ability to maintain distance with flight and ranged combat further limits the effectiveness of spatial cuts as a finisher. In practice, spatial cuts are just another thing that forces Shunguang to divide her attention toward, while Isamu continues to flood the battlefield with threats she cannot ignore.
I'll be voting for Isamu.
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Why are you calling him by his legal name
Child Emperor FRA. If his little robots can one shot those stronger than Shunguan, then she's kinda screwed if she's hit one. and there's a bunch of these? Strength in numbers I'd say.
Though if opposing arguments are good enough, I might flip-flop. Either way, both characters would be a good fight for Mash.
Child Emperor FRA. If his little robots can one shot those stronger than Shunguan, then she's kinda screwed if she's hit one. and there's a bunch of these? Strength in numbers I'd say.
Though if opposing arguments are good enough, I might flip-flop. Either way, both characters would be a good fight for Mash.
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I respect my boy. He hates being called Child Emperor since it means virgin
Diabolical Emperor tho
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Whoops, my badI respect my boy. He hates being called Child Emperor since it means virgin
Diabolical Emperor tho
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okay, so for one, like i mentioned in my other comment, i don't think the AP gap is wide enough between the two to where isamu's weapons would just completely overpower shunguang's swords. it's only 1.5x, and shunguang has ways of boosting her damage anyways so she shouldn't really have that much trouble overcoming that gap. also, i feel like shunguang's danmaku is being a bit downplayed here. it isn't just a light rain of swords that isamu could casually just shoot down or weave around, it is quite literally thousands of swords all raining down at him simultaneously, swords which she could also control and focus down to a single point if she really wanted to pressure him further. even if you wanna say isamu could overpower the swords with his own rapid-fire attacks, i think there's just way too many that are constantly going to be replacing the ones he takes down to the point where he's eventually just going to get completely overwhelmed. shunguang also doesn't have a limit to how many swords she can make, so she's just going to be raining down thousands of swords on him in a massive area and that's going to make him doing anything really hard, even if he has shields to protect him from the attacks
i still don't really know if i can say isamu is nearly as mobile as shunguang in the air, but given there's only one panel provided on his profile of him flying i can't really speak on that too much. regardless though, like i mentioned already it's going to be really hard for him to really do anything if he's being pelted by thousands of swords, even if he's being protected by his shields.
the bots could pose an issue, but i don't really think shunguang would get pressured that much even if they swarmed her. her swords basically have a will of their own, they can move accordingly to defend her if needed. at most, she just needs to gesture to direct them where to go. she's already shown herself capable of dealing with swarms of enemies very casually, so i don't really see her getting overwhelmed even if his bots all simultaneously jump her. if the bots aren't that much stronger than her, i see no reason why just pelting them with a couple dozen swords or so wouldn't be able to just dispatch of them. even if you wanna argue they're stronger than her, a spatial cut would be enough to just OHKO all of them instantly (i'll get more to the spatial cut later since you had points arguing against it). enhanced senses and extrasensory perception would also help her keep track of everything that's going on, and you could also argue something like the disintegration technique would just instantly destroy the bots since they're inorganic
i already mentioned how shunguang deals with poison (i would argue miasma is arguably more lethal since it acts as a poison while also affecting your mind). i still don't really know how his freezing works, but if it's close range i think it's going to be really hard to get that off. the only thing i could see her potentially getting caught by is the immobilization with the birdlime, but even if isamu somehow gets close enough to her to try and go for one of his immobilization options, she still has ways to defend herself. she could just summon her sword case to her and use it as a shield if necessary, she can instinctively dodge attacks, and she can just activate vital view with an attack if she really feels pressed. vital view is still an extremely strong tool here, and it gives shunguang ample time to either reposition herself if she gets in a dangerous spot or just counterattack
shunguang's spatial cuts are massive and have insanely wide AOE. i see no reason to believe why even a single spatial slash wouldn't just instantly OHKO multiple of isamu's deployables in a single go. it's also not like she has a windup/cooldown to them, she can chain multiple spatial attacks in succession. isamu's overwhelming forces could very easily be dispatched in a couple swings, and that's not even accoutning for the fact that isamu is also vulnerable to getting OHKO'd if a spatial attack lands on him. i don't think his forcefields/shields are protecting him from that, so it basically puts isamu in the exact same position where he can't afford getting hit once either.
i simply don't think isamu's forces are something that shunguang can't manage or handle. even when being overwhelmed by multiple fronts, she basically has thousands of swords at her beck and call to defend herself from anything isamu throws at her, not to mention her own insane mobility and ways to avoid lethal attacks with things like vital view. his turrets could likely be targeted and destroyed by shunguang's swords if they were bothering her too much, and i think the act of actually landing an OHKO turret attack on her is going to be insanely difficult. not only does she, again, have thousands of swords to just defend her, she can also just shoot out her own energy slashes to intercept the turret if necessary, and if they somehow get close enough to her, she simply either dodges instinctually or triggers vital view to avoid it. the underdog bots i don't think would pose that much of a threat to her given the fact that not only is she fully capable of fighting against swarms of enemies, she also has the potential to oneshot them very easily with spatial cuts or disintegration. dozens of them could simply be destroyed with a single slash, or they could just get pushed back with her swords to avoid them from self-destructing on top of her. as for isamu himself, i just don't see him landing any of his incap/stun options on someone as mobile as shunguang, and she has ways to avoid danger in a close quarters scenario anyways with IA and vital view. shunguang can also still just one shot him as easily as he could one shot her.
i'm still going for shunguang personally. i think she just has ample ways of dealing with everything isamu could throw at her while also being fully capable of just one shotting him herself
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I wasn't aware of these, that's definitely a disqualifying feature
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is that really a big issue when there are characters in this tournament who scale to like 70+ KT or higher? the stats kind of fluctuate a lot here lol
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After some reading and thinking, I'll tentatively let it pass but I was led to believe 16 kilotons was the AP we're working with so to argue that he has weapons that one-shot this tier, I feel a little misled, given "upscales greatly" in Isamu's submission did not clock as a "one-shots 16 kilotons".
The wiki standard for one-shot is around an 8x multiplier from base so any 'one-shot' would have to scale well above the AP threshold of even the heaviest hitters of this tournament
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fair enough
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Iirc, if a character one shots someone of a higher value in their own verse compared to an opponent in a MU, they still one shot said opponent. But the 8x one shot value we have on the wiki doesn't apply to that character, if im making any sort of sense. I remember this from a thread about Alien X vs a guy who could one shot it.
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It's fine, it's a gap in language, but I'd have considered it more carefully if it immediately clocked that Isamu had an arsenal that could one-shot the given AP value. Given Ye Shunguang's Spatial Manipulation would likely also one-shot Owl, it's fair enough I suppose.
Anyway, I'm personally on team Ye Shunguang just because even if Isamu has greater versatility, I would argue her percep and speed amp with Vital View as well as her spatial manip seems to cover her bases well enough.
Anyway, I'm personally on team Ye Shunguang just because even if Isamu has greater versatility, I would argue her percep and speed amp with Vital View as well as her spatial manip seems to cover her bases well enough.
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Shunguang FRA.
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Honestly, yeah thinking about it, switching my vote to the ZZZ girl
Do they call it ZZZ cause the game makes you go ZZZ?
Do they call it ZZZ cause the game makes you go ZZZ?
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they calll it that cuz you zenless on the zone till you go zero #real
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Honestly, no matter who gets the dub here, im ready for a challenge in the next round. Either character could push Mash to is fullest power, the debate will be legendary.
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No, but it instead making your morning wood awake for a days#iykwim
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votes haven't been counted yet but from the looks of it, it currently seems like the tally is 1-5 in favor of shunguang
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It's still anyone's game.
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yeah i'll wait for kachon's rebuttal before i lock anything in. i do think this matchup has pretty good arguments for either side considering both characters have the potential to one shot the other, it's all about who can get that opportunity first
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I'll re-read everything again too once he responds, just to be sure.
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bump
still waiting on kachon's rebuttal but it seems like naito wants to wrap up the first rounds soon if possible
still waiting on kachon's rebuttal but it seems like naito wants to wrap up the first rounds soon if possible
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The debate can continue as normal but I'll have Ye Shunguang pass
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