The Revenant Marvel Comics Discussion Thread

[ObberGobb]

we have direct evidence that Thor holds back even against herald tier characters therefore they can’t scale to his peak feats

Could you link some of the scans showing that? They could be useful.

My other worry though is that not all of the 1-A feats are "peak" Thor. Like Eric Masterson wasn't at peak Thor's level, and one of Thor's feat was from him as a literal baby.

 

[Eseseso]

Which option are you leaning towards? Everyone is High 3-A, or most are High 3-A but Thor and some others are 1-A?

High 3-A, with only those with actual 1-A feats being 1-A.

 

[Rgerdeena]

Could you link some of the scans showing that? They could be useful.

It’s on his profile that When insane and no longer holding back, Thor fought simultaneously against Adam Warlock and Silver Surfer, describing them both merely as "bothersome fleas." Adam Warlock described this Thor as his "greatest fear" and "one of the most physically powerful beings in the universe.", Adam warlock thought during that fight that Thor is more powerful than he remembers and also it isn’t on the link but in that comic he also said that Thor’s faster than he remembers, I haven’t read the other comics that are part of that insane not holding back Thor era yet but I’ve seen it mentioned that he was also shown to be above beta Ray bill when not holding back, and sif thought he was using warriors madness because he was more powerful than she had ever seen him and sif is a herald tier character that’s seen him fight more times than other herald tier characters because she’s an asgardian

My other worry though is that not all of the 1-A feats are "peak" Thor. Like Eric Masterson wasn't at peak Thor's level, and one of Thor's feat was from him as a literal baby.

The Eric Masterson feat is just an outlier for other herald tier characters, the baby Thor feat would still only scale to peak Thor because he wouldn’t gain a qualitative power difference from training and stuff which means that he was always 1-A when not holding back

 

[ObberGobb]

It’s on his profile that When insane and no longer holding back, Thor fought simultaneously against Adam Warlock and Silver Surfer, describing them both merely as "bothersome fleas." Adam Warlock described this Thor as his "greatest fear" and "one of the most physically powerful beings in the universe.", Adam warlock thought during that fight that Thor is more powerful than he remembers and also it isn’t on the link but in that comic he also said that Thor’s faster than he remembers, I haven’t read the other comics that are part of that insane not holding back Thor era yet but I’ve seen it mentioned that he was also shown to be above beta Ray bill when not holding back, and sif thought he was using warriors madness because he was more powerful than she had ever seen him and sif is a herald tier character that’s seen him fight more times than other herald tier characters because she’s an asgardian

The Eric Masterson feat is just an outlier for other herald tier characters, the baby Thor feat would still only scale to peak Thor because he wouldn’t gain a qualitative power difference from training and stuff which means that he was always 1-A when not holding back

Yeah, the thing from Blood and Thunder is good and illustrates that Thor could be above Heralds, but I would like more. There are also instances where Silver Surfer is implied to be stronger than Thor, so I would like to establish that it is consistent for Thor to be far stronger than Heralds, not just from one story.

 

[Rgerdeena]

Yeah, the thing from Blood and Thunder is good and illustrates that Thor could be above Heralds, but I would like more. There are also instances where Silver Surfer is implied to be stronger than Thor, so I would like to establish that it is consistent for Thor to be far stronger than Heralds, not just from one story.

I mean comics that establish silver surfer is stronger than Thor would be Thor while he’s holding back based on that comic, and there’s a clear gap between Thor’s different showings(he’s usually even with silver surfer but he has beaten mephisto in mephisto’s realm and mephisto out of mephisto’s realm stomped silver surfer, and a few feats that aren’t on his profile are that he’s harmed galactus who is way stronger than silver surfer and he’s harmed celestials which somewhat scale to galactus, and one that is on his profile he’s fought Zeus who scales to Odin who scales to galactus, and there’s also the numerous ygsradil feats) and he has too many feats on both ends to ignore if possible to not ignore and the fact that he holds back against other herald tier characters provides a logical explanation for why sometimes he’s about even with other herald tier characters and sometimes he’s fighting beings that stomp other herald tier characters

 

[Rgerdeena]

Yeah, the thing from Blood and Thunder is good and illustrates that Thor could be above Heralds, but I would like more. There are also instances where Silver Surfer is implied to be stronger than Thor, so I would like to establish that it is consistent for Thor to be far stronger than Heralds, not just from one story.

I just remembered that also in a recent hulk vs Thor comic beta Ray bill confirmed that Thor’s always held back against hulk

 

[Excellence616]

ObberGobb/Herald Planning Sandbox

vsbattles.fandom.com

Option 1: Most Heralds do not scale to Thor's Yggdrasil feats. Instead, I propose a new category we might call "God Heralds" that do scale to 1-A, while Heralds scale to High 3-A.. God Heralds would include characters like Thor and Hercules, who performed the Yggdrasil feats. It would also include characters who are explicitly more powerful than a full-power Thor and/or have feats downscaling from Skyfathers themselves. This is closest to what we have now. However, I believe this presents many problems:

• I do not believe that it is consistent at all for the likes of Thor to be infinitely stronger than someone like Silver Surfer. There are almost always treated as being equals, and while there are occasions where Thor is shown to be stronger (such as Loki stating that he believes Thor to be stronger than Loki, or Thor easily overpowering Silver Surfer when bloodlusted), there are also occasions where Silver Surfer is shown to be stronger (such as Thor believing Silver Surfer to be stronger than him).
• Downscaling from Skyfathers is reasonably consistent for characters like Thor (who has fought evenly against characters like Mephisto, Hela, and Zeus), Sentry (Defeated Galactus, albeit offscreen), Thanos (Tanked many of Odin's attacks and greatly impressed him), and Mangog (Scared Odin). However, there are characters like Ultron who have blatantly overpowered Thor and are extremely consistently shown to be more powerful than him, but for whom it doesn't really make sense to downscale from Skyfathers. This raises the question of how we should scale characters who are explicitly more powerful than Thor, but don't have any Skyfather Tier feats.

Option 2: All Heralds scale to 1-A based on Thor's Yggdrasil feats and Eric Masterson's feats. This is due to Yggdrasil encompassing all of Earth-616 and existing across every plane of reality, which we accept as including the Astral Plane, which is 1-A. While I believe that this is more consistent with the relative power of Herald Tier characters, it also presents its own problems:

• It is frankly ridiculous for so many characters to be 1-A

• Anything 1-A for heralds, Hellords and Skyfather is an outlier.
• It is possibly for Thor to be infinitely more powerful than Silver Surfer. I don't see Norrin having an Elder God/Phoenix force Lineage.
• Eric feat is junk since it's more likely a 1-A feat and not consistent with him. His only good feat is with Godblast.
• The likes of Thor and Hulk have 1-A higher ends which we can't just scale anyone to randomly.

Option 3 (My preference): All Heralds scale to 2-A based on these same feats. This would scale them to infinite planes of reality, but not to being beyond-dimensional. This would drop the Skyfather downscaling. I believe that this is a more reasonable and consistent interpretation of the feats, as there is hardly any indication of any Herald Tier characters being infinite dimensional, much less beyond dimensional. However, this has problems too:

• It is inconsistent with our currently accepted cosmology

Inconsistent.

Option 4 (Nuclear option): We just drop all of these problematic feats and scale all of them to High 3-A

This is the better Option.

Option 4 (Super nuclear option): We drop even High 3-A, and try to find a more consistent lower tier, like 4-B

Any scans for this?

 

[ObberGobb]

Anything 1-A for heralds, Hellords and Skyfather is an outlier.

The problem is that there are tons of feats of affecting every plane of existence, and even a few of affecting every reality. Under our current cosmology that is 1-A.

 

[Excellence616]

The problem is that there are tons of feats of affecting every plane of existence, and even a few of affecting every reality. Under our current cosmology that is 1-A.

Yeah but the fact that they are HD Beings is another problem. If Hellords/Skyfathers were like HDE but draws power from 1-A source, it wouldn't be an outlier.

 

[Eseseso]

Tbf Gods draw power from sources that are 1-A or higher and are higher-dimensional already, same with Hell Lords.

 

[Excellence616]

Eternity - Resistance Addition

In this page, The First Firmament is clearly noted to have Existence Erasure and Absorption (Life, Conceptual & Energy) all of which are overlapping abilities. Eternity once resided inside him and easily broke out of his body, Shouldn't Eternity have resistances to said abilities?

vsbattles.com

 

[Rgerdeena]

Yeah but the fact that they are HD Beings is another problem. If Hellords/Skyfathers were like HDE but draws power from 1-A source, it wouldn't be an outlier.

They can just be higher dimensional but have power equivalent to higher stuff

 

[ObberGobb]

Thoughts on this? Thor does some powerscaling and ranks Silver Surfer in a tier above him along with the likes of Thanos and Zeus. He also says that someone like Galactus or Surtur is so far above him that he can't even begin to assess their relative strength. He also puts Pluto in the same tier as himself

 

[Eseseso]

Thoughts on this? Thor does some powerscaling and ranks Silver Surfer in a tier above him along with the likes of Thanos and Zeus. He also says that someone like Galactus or Surtur is so far above him that he can't even begin to assess their relative strength. He also puts Pluto in the same tier as himself

Inconsistent IMO

 

[ObberGobb]

Inconsistent IMO

Yeah, Pluto and Zeus being ranked where they are is weird. And as far as I know, there aren't many instances of Silver Surfer being shown to be THAT much more powerful than Thor. And doesn't Silver Surfer generally get curbstomped by Thanos?

 

[Rgerdeena]

Thoughts on this? Thor does some powerscaling and ranks Silver Surfer in a tier above him along with the likes of Thanos and Zeus. He also says that someone like Galactus or Surtur is so far above him that he can't even begin to assess their relative strength. He also puts Pluto in the same tier as himself

Thor has also said that he can do whatever he needs to do to save the day, I don’t think he’s very good at powerscaling

 

[Maverick_Zero_X]

Does destroying an Infinity Stone grant any specific Tier?

 

[Rgerdeena]

Does destroying an Infinity Stone grant any specific Tier?

1-A I think because how much power they give you varies(by how well you are at using it) up to 1-A and their own power should be equivalent to the most power they can give you, I might be wrong though

 

[Legion350]

I looked at the proposal, and I'm favoring High 3-A for the Herald Tiers unless they have a mechanism for anything higher than High 3-A aka the God Heralds [like Thor/Hulk/Heracles]. Thor is a unique case because he not only is one of the Herald few characters who has multiple relatively consistent Tier 1 feats at his peak. However, as others have mentioned he isn't a good basis for scaling because he is Skyfather or higher. Thor's God Blasts come from his divine energy, and his true power. Also, he has other feats indicates he's above Surfer at his "Peak" such as injuring Celestials, defeating Galactus with a God Blast, there is another pretty damning piece of evidence. Silver Surfer is weaker than Mephisto as his page notes. Mephisto while a "barely a shadow of his former self" easily injures Silver Surfer. In another instance while outside of his realm, he was still beyond the Surfer, and even with "his field of Satanic force fading" he was weaker than him.

In contrast Thor was able to fight evenly against Mephisto in his own realm. This is mostly from stuff currently on their pages, but we have multiple statements putting Thor beyond Silver Surfer, including Thor being able to fight characters beyond Norrin, and an explicit statement saying that Thor is vastly stronger than Norrin at his peak, and the Surfer is only a flea in comparison.

Using that scan to support 1-A Heralds doesn't make sense because of how contradictory it is. Silver Surfer is supposedly on the same level of Thanos above Thor. However, Thanos usually beats them both or is portrayed as somewhat stronger. I don't think there are many comics that say Surfer >>> Thor, though what is the source because that looks old.

For the mid level Heralds, is the High 3-A proposal including all Heralds, or just the ones currently Low 1-C? I'm not sure where 4-B comes from, as far as I can see from the pages there are only a few Tier 4 calcs. The lowest calc above the Hulk's 5-B is 4-A.

 

[Excellence616]

For the mid level Heralds, is the High 3-A proposal including all Heralds, or just the ones currently Low 1-C? I'm not sure where 4-B comes from, as far as I can see from the pages there are only a few Tier 4 calcs. The lowest calc above the Hulk's 5-B is 4-A

High 3-A proposal is for all Low 1-C

 

[Legion350]

High 3-A proposal is for all Low 1-C

I know the High 3-A proposal includes all Low 1-C characters. To clarify, I was asking if this impacts mid level heralds who don't have Low 1-C already. For example, Apocalypse is listed as being affected by the revision.

 

[Rgerdeena]

I know the High 3-A proposal includes all Low 1-C characters. To clarify, I was asking if this impacts mid level heralds who don't have Low 1-C already. For example, Apocalypse is listed as being affected by the revision.

I think that the revision applies to 3-Cs because it says all heralds

 

[ObberGobb]

I looked at the proposal, and I'm favoring High 3-A for the Herald Tiers unless they have a mechanism for anything higher than High 3-A aka the God Heralds [like Thor/Hulk/Heracles]. Thor is a unique case because he not only is one of the Herald few characters who has multiple relatively consistent Tier 1 feats at his peak. However, as others have mentioned he isn't a good basis for scaling because he is Skyfather or higher. Thor's God Blasts come from his divine energy, and his true power. Also, he has other feats indicates he's above Surfer at his "Peak" such as injuring Celestials, defeating Galactus with a God Blast, there is another pretty damning piece of evidence. Silver Surfer is weaker than Mephisto as his page notes. Mephisto while a "barely a shadow of his former self" easily injures Silver Surfer. In another instance while outside of his realm, he was still beyond the Surfer, and even with "his field of Satanic force fading" he was weaker than him.

In contrast Thor was able to fight evenly against Mephisto in his own realm. This is mostly from stuff currently on their pages, but we have multiple statements putting Thor beyond Silver Surfer, including Thor being able to fight characters beyond Norrin, and an explicit statement saying that Thor is vastly stronger than Norrin at his peak, and the Surfer is only a flea in comparison.

Using that scan to support 1-A Heralds doesn't make sense because of how contradictory it is. Silver Surfer is supposedly on the same level of Thanos above Thor. However, Thanos usually beats them both or is portrayed as somewhat stronger. I don't think there are many comics that say Surfer >>> Thor, though what is the source because that looks old.

For the mid level Heralds, is the High 3-A proposal including all Heralds, or just the ones currently Low 1-C? I'm not sure where 4-B comes from, as far as I can see from the pages there are only a few Tier 4 calcs. The lowest calc above the Hulk's 5-B is 4-A.

My proposal is for all 3-Cs and Low 1-Cs to be upgraded to be High 3-A. In my opinion, the split we have is entirely arbitrary and not supported by any evidence at all. Also, many of the feats we use for 3-C are actually High 3-A, since shaking an infinite universe requires infinite energy.

 

[Muteki616]

If you read the rest of the post maybe you would understand what I mean by that.

who decided I didn't understand?

 

[Muteki616]

Just because some writers occasionally refer to concepts in older stories, this does not mean that anywhere near all of them are even aware of a small portion of the full context.

irrelevant ngl. It would be best to do this for character profiles and stats. Similar to how we have a profile tab for every Goku in every arc.
Marvel editorial even references these past events, stories, and cosmology.
This idea of Marvel being an inconsistent mess is propaganda IMO.
Most of these higher realms (and even the characters themselves) are illogical/paraconsistent.
Magic is paraconsistent, and the names of these characters hold magic, so I don't understand the hoopla of consistency.
When the narrative for these characters doesn't actually care.

Also, "too many 1-As," but it's clear that Modern Marvel is heading in this direction.
Mortal heroes are fighting gods/concepts that scale to the highest reaches of the cosmology.

 

[ObberGobb]

Frankly, I think a lot of the scaling weirdness is that Marvel writers don't think of the cosmology in the same way our tiering system does. Like our entire idea of what "Outerversal" means has probably not come up a single time in Marvel writing rooms. Like I think Universal feats are quite consistent because it is very clear when a feat is intended to be Universal. And I think that most of the feats we have as Outerversal were probably conceptualized as the writers as just being Multiversal+.

 

[Antvasima]

Frankly, I think a lot of the scaling weirdness is that Marvel writers don't think of the cosmology in the same way our tiering system does. Like our entire idea of what "Outerversal" means has probably not come up a single time in Marvel writing rooms. Like I think Universal feats are quite consistent because it is very clear when a feat is intended to be Universal. And I think that most of the feats we have as Outerversal were probably conceptualized as the writers as just being Multiversal+.

Yes, that and that I think the basis of our scaling is to scale most cosmic entities as being more powerful than pre-retcon Jim Shooter Beyonder, who was portrayed as at least High 1-B (an infinite-dimensional entity who was millions of times more powerful than the entire Marvel multiverse combined), rather than post-retcon Tom DeFalco Beyonder, who was portrayed as at least Low 2-C (he created his own regular universe).

 

[Rgerdeena]

Yes, that and that I think the basis of our scaling is to scale most cosmic entities as being more powerful than pre-retcon Jim Shooter Beyonder, who was portrayed as at least High 1-B (an infinite-dimensional entity who was millions of times more powerful than the entire Marvel multiverse combined), rather than post-retcon Tom DeFalco Beyonder, who was portrayed as at least Low 2-C (he created his own regular universe).

Our scaling has almost nothing to do with beyonder, no one is outerversal because of him he’s outerversal because of other people

 

[Antvasima]

I thought that we partially scaled from his High 1-B statements.

 

[ObberGobb]

I thought that we partially scaled from his High 1-B statements.

We use it as supporting evidence for High 1-B, but I think that should be removed. We need better High 1-B support in general. @Eseseso I think sent me some good ones from another site's cosmology blog.

 

[Antvasima]

We use it as supporting evidence for High 1-B, but I think that should be removed. We need better High 1-B support in general. @Eseseso I think sent me some good ones from another site's cosmology blog.

Okay. I think that it would be much more reliable to not stack everything on top of severely retconned information.

 

[Eseseso]

Okay. I think that it would be much more reliable to not stack everything on top of severely retconned information.

Wouldn't exactly say it's retconned when we have multiple High 1-B parts of the standard cosmology. Other verses have gotten to that tier and above with as little as one statement

 

[Entity]

I'm waiting for the versus of the year: 4D Marvel vs 5D DC

 

[Antvasima]

Wouldn't exactly say it's retconned when we have multiple High 1-B parts of the standard cosmology. Other verses have gotten to that tier and above with as little as one statement

I am specifically referring to scaling other characters from being more powerful than The Beyonder.

 

[Rgerdeena]

I am specifically referring to scaling other characters from being more powerful than The Beyonder.

No characters scale to High 1-B though except for a small handful that have outdated profiles, there is a small part of the cosmology that is High 1-B but herald tiers scale lower than it and skyfather tiers scale higher than it

 

[Legion350]

My proposal is for all 3-Cs and Low 1-Cs to be upgraded to be High 3-A. In my opinion, the split we have is entirely arbitrary and not supported by any evidence at all. Also, many of the feats we use for 3-C are actually High 3-A, since shaking an infinite universe requires infinite energy.

Okay, thanks for the clarification. I had an idea that kinda bridges the page's current scaling with your sandbox’s proposals. Obviously excluding the so-called God Heralds. This only a half-baked idea. Have you thought about using both 3-C and High 3-A? There several galaxy level statements that I’ve seen on their pages, that don't rely on universe shaking.

Here's the way I was thinking about it. All of the Mid Heralds {3-C} will use become 3-C up to High 3-A. Heralds who already vary between 3-C & Low 1-C instead replace the Low 1-C with High 3-A. Characters like Thanos or Ultron who currently are only Low 1-C, keep the same logic but are only rated as High 3-A.

It still preserves the differences between heralds to an extent, without having to rely on arbitrary distinctions. Also helps with the issue of characters who upscale a "God Herald" like Thor, but don't have any supporting evidence for anything higher. Just a thought for now though.

 

[ObberGobb]

Okay, thanks for the clarification. I had an idea that kinda bridges the page's current scaling with your sandbox’s proposals. Obviously excluding the so-called God Heralds. This only a half-baked idea. Have you thought about using both 3-C and High 3-A? There several galaxy level statements that I’ve seen on their pages, that don't rely on universe shaking.

Here's the way I was thinking about it. All of the Mid Heralds {3-C} will use become 3-C up to High 3-A. Heralds who already vary between 3-C & Low 1-C instead replace the Low 1-C with High 3-A. Characters like Thanos or Ultron who currently are only Low 1-C, keep the same logic but are only rated as High 3-A.

It still preserves the differences between heralds to an extent, without having to rely on arbitrary distinctions. Also helps with the issue of characters who upscale a "God Herald" like Thor, but don't have any supporting evidence for anything higher. Just a thought for now though.

Personally, I don't like that either. I think someone is either Herald level or not. I don't think it makes sense to have them be two tiers at the same time, it's needlessly confusing and doesn't really mean much. Like what why single out 3-C? What does "up to" mean in this context if they don't have a Varies mechanic?

I think maybe that characters who are currently 3-C could get "At most High 3-A" or something

 

[Legion350]

Personally, I don't like that either. I think someone is either Herald level or not. I don't think it makes sense to have them be two tiers at the same time, it's needlessly confusing and doesn't really mean much. Like what why single out 3-C? What does "up to" mean in this context if they don't have a Varies mechanic?

I think maybe that characters who are currently 3-C could get "At most High 3-A" or something

I mentioned 3-C for a few reasons. One of your proposals aka the "Super nuclear option" was to drop High 3-A and find a more consistent lower tier and you specifically mentioned 4-B. While I don't think it made sense disregard the many High 3-A feats, while just quickly skimming through the pages, & a few respect threads, I saw a decent amount of feats above 4-B, but below High 3-A, like 3-C. Also, we already accept most of them as having a varies mechanism anyways. Tbh just floating a few ideas rn, not married to any specific plan/idea rn.

 

[Rgerdeena]

I mentioned 3-C for a few reasons. One of your proposals aka the "Super nuclear option" was to drop High 3-A and find a more consistent lower tier and you specifically mentioned 4-B. While I don't think it made sense disregard the many High 3-A feats, while just quickly skimming through the pages, & a few respect threads, I saw a decent amount of feats above 4-B, but below High 3-A, like 3-C. Also, we already accept most of them as having a varies mechanism anyways. Tbh just floating a few ideas rn, not married to any specific plan/idea rn.

4-B is what we used to have heralds at, I’m pretty sure it was a joke about returning them there

 

[ObberGobb]

How do we treat situations where Thor himself says that someone is stronger than him? Or when a narration box says it?