The Revenant Marvel Comics Discussion Thread

[Da3ggman]

I wonder when we’re going to say **** it and just give up trying to make a lot of this stuff make sense and adhere to our tiering system. Like, just put a big ol’ disclaimer on some of the mystic shit that says “Yeah we know this doesn’t make sense but it’s comics so lol”. Would make the whole distinction between dimensional characters vs outer easier, I tell ya. The whole thing changes every couple of years anyhow. Remember when The One Above All was that guy? Hell, I wouldn’t be surprised if they made a whole new line of entities that infinitely transcend him and retcon everything prior.

Bit of a nonsensical and unrelated rant, but I’m just….tired. Nothing stays the same, and often times, I wish it did.

 

[ObberGobb]

Why would the Hell Lords scale to the Astral Plane?

Hell Lords will probably be High 1-B, High 1-B+, or Low 1-A once I revise the mystic universe. Skyfathers will scale in AP to the Hell Lords most likely but will be High 1-B in terms of dimensionality.

Nightmare is listed as 1-A due to his realm being connected to the Astral Plane. Hell Lords and Skyfathers scale because:

1. Nightmare's profile lists him as comparable to Mephisto
2. Nightmare was utterly terrified of Cul
3. Pre-Sorcerer Supreme could already fight on-par with Nightmare, but was vastly weaker than Loki

 

[Eseseso]

Nightmare is listed as 1-A due to his realm being connected to the Astral Plane. Hell Lords and Skyfathers scale because:

1. Nightmare's profile lists him as comparable to Mephisto
2. Nightmare was utterly terrified of Cul

He was?

3. Pre-Sorcerer Supreme could already fight on-par with Nightmare, but was vastly weaker than Loki

Doctor Strange is inconsistent AF.

 

[ObberGobb]

Doctor Strange is inconsistent AF.

Sure, but it's very consistent that he's comparable to Nightmare. We even accept that on his profile already

 

[Eseseso]

Sure, but it's very consistent that he's comparable to Nightmare. We even accept that on his profile already

We do, but when he's on Earth he is rarely shown as being at his peak level.

He's honestly worse than even the Herald tiers in that regard.

 

[ObberGobb]

We do, but when he's on Earth he is rarely shown as being at his peak level.

He's honestly worse than even the Herald tiers in that regard.

Yeah, but imo this story made it clear that Doctor Strange considered Loki to be on a completely different level than himself. It's also fairly consistent for Loki's magic to be that high, as he considered himself a more powerful sorcerer than Seth in his own realm, and could kill Bor by turning him into snow

 

[Eseseso]

Yeah, but imo this story made it clear that Doctor Strange considered Loki to be on a completely different level than himself. It's also fairly consistent for Loki's magic to be that high, as he considered himself a more powerful sorcerer than Seth in his own realm, and could kill Bor by turning him into snow

Ok, Loki scaling that high with his own feats makes sense if he's scaling to Skyfathers like that (even if that last feat seems more like really busted hax).

 

[ObberGobb]

Where do we accept Phoenix Force Avatars as scaling rn? Are they at around Skyfather/Galactus level, or are they are Universal Abstract level? Or are we even considering that to be an incomparable gap? It is hard to tell with so many 1-As now.

 

[Eseseso]

Where do we accept Phoenix Force Avatars as scaling rn? Are they at around Skyfather/Galactus level, or are they are Universal Abstract level? Or are we even considering that to be an incomparable gap? It is hard to tell with so many 1-As now.

Depends on feats tbh. But yeah there's a reason were gonna nerf a lot of the 1-A's to High 1-B(+) and/or Low 1-A

 

[ObberGobb]

Depends on feats tbh. But yeah there's a reason were gonna nerf a lot of the 1-A's to High 1-B(+) and/or Low 1-A

Honestly I think everyone M-Body level and below should be nerfed to Low 1-A or High 1-B. I have been doing a lot of looking at Herald and Skyfather scaling, and there are several characters who have feats against Uni Abstract M-Bodies (Dormammu, Phoenix, Nightmare, Thor, etc.) who I believe to be in the general realm of Skyfather Tier.

 

[Excellence616]

Honestly I think everyone M-Body level and below should be nerfed to 1-A and High 1-B. I have been doing a lot of looking at Herald and Skyfather scaling, and there are several characters who have feats against Uni Abstract M-Bodies (Dormammu, Phoenix, Nightmare, Thor, etc.) who I believe to be in the general realm of Skyfather Tier.

We can't. Abstracts M-bodies are 1-A. Any heralds scaling to them with not way of justifying R>F or some sort of connection to 1-A entities through empowerment would be regraded as an outlier.

 

[Muteki616]

Because mystical entities are being of the multiverse rather than just the local universe as far as I am aware, and on principle we should not just automatically assume the highest possible interpretation.

Mystical entities are not of the Multiverse.

 

[AcidSilver]

I wonder when we’re going to say **** it and just give up trying to make a lot of this stuff make sense and adhere to our tiering system. Like, just put a big ol’ disclaimer on some of the mystic shit that says “Yeah we know this doesn’t make sense but it’s comics so lol”. Would make the whole distinction between dimensional characters vs outer easier, I tell ya. The whole thing changes every couple of years anyhow. Remember when The One Above All was that guy? Hell, I wouldn’t be surprised if they made a whole new line of entities that infinitely transcend him and retcon everything prior.

Bit of a nonsensical and unrelated rant, but I’m just….tired. Nothing stays the same, and often times, I wish it did.

The real issue is trying to apply these characters to made up tiers. "Outerversal" is not an actual level of strength that exists in any work of fiction and is just some shit this website made up so yeah no shit trying to find out if characters meet the made up criteria for it is a nightmare. You try to explain what Outerversal means to the writers of any of these characters put at that tier and they would laugh in your face and call you stupid.

Might as well say that a character is "Gigasuperultraversal with sprinkles on top" tier.

 

[HenshinIntervention]

The real issue is trying to apply these characters to made up tiers. "Outerversal" is not an actual level of strength that exists in any work of fiction and is just some shit this website made up so yeah no shit trying to find out if characters meet the made up criteria for it is a nightmare. You try to explain what Outerversal means to the writers of any of these characters put at that tier and they would laugh in your face and call you stupid.

Might as well say that a character is "Gigasuperultraversal with sprinkles on top" tier.

This sentiment applies to everything on this wiki, power scaling itself is just people making shit up and hypothetically applying it to their characters. It's nothing special.

The fun part about powerscaling is "making shit up" and comparing characters to each other using it.
I doubt most Powerscalers care whether or not the authors of their favorites think they're stupid for doing this.

I will say though, Marvel has a lot of issues to work around in order to compare and index reasonably, that I don't contend.

 

[Muteki616]

power scaling itself is just people making shit up

can't get behind this one, chief.

 

[HenshinIntervention]

can't get behind this one, chief.

If you read the rest of the post maybe you would understand what I mean by that.

 

[Antvasima]

The real issue is trying to apply these characters to made up tiers. "Outerversal" is not an actual level of strength that exists in any work of fiction and is just some shit this website made up so yeah no shit trying to find out if characters meet the made up criteria for it is a nightmare. You try to explain what Outerversal means to the writers of any of these characters put at that tier and they would laugh in your face and call you stupid.

Might as well say that a character is "Gigasuperultraversal with sprinkles on top" tier.

Well, the name is made up, but the reasoning seems perfectly sound and based on real world mystical, spiritual, and philosophical concepts.

The main problems we have with Marvel Comics in particular compared to all other verses in our wiki stem from that almost none of its many hundreds of writers remotely care at all about maintaining any structural coherence for the verse, and the editors do not seem to rein them in at all in that regard.

 

[ObberGobb]

We can't. Abstracts M-bodies are 1-A. Any heralds scaling to them with not way of justifying R>F or some sort of connection to 1-A entities through empowerment would be regraded as an outlier.

In that case, affecting an Abstract should not be grounds for scaling. Like Phoenix scales to cauterizing a wound on Eternity, and Thor's God Blast stabilizer a mortal wound on Eternity. There is also the issue of characters like the Phoenix Force, Galactus, and Odin having statements and feats scaling them to infinite alternate Earths, which would theoretically put them at infinitely above Eternity, but it's not treated that way in universe.

 

[Excellence616]

In that case, affecting an Abstract should not be grounds for scaling. Like Phoenix scales to cauterizing a wound on Eternity, and Thor's God Blast stabilizer a mortal wound on Eternity. There is also the issue of characters like the Phoenix Force, Galactus, and Odin having statements and feats scaling them to infinite alternate Earths, which would theoretically put them at infinitely above Eternity, but it's not treated that way in universe.

Phoenix and Galactus are different cases. Affecting Abstracts is still a ground for scaling. The question is, what kind characters are affecting Abstracts? Are they fundamental forces like Galactus, Phoenix or are they characters with metaphysical amp like Hulk or Hank Pym or are they characters like Odin, Hercules. Skyfathers/Hellords have more statements of High 1-B, High 1-B+ or even Low 1-A than 1-A. They are higher dimensional beings vs characters with BDE Type 3 beings. Like i said earlier, Outlier.

Edit: Thor falls within the meta amp but would need careful handling.

 

[Antvasima]

Which pages do we need to rename, and to which new titles? Can somebody link to them please?

• Spider-Man (Peter Parker) (Spider-Verse)
• Spider-Man (Miles Morales) (Spider-Verse)
• Spider-Man (Peter Parker) (Insomniac Games)
• Spider-Man (Miles Morales) (Insomniac Games)

Yes. It seems much better to stick with our standard naming convention formatting.

Are there any objections, or should we go ahead?

Do we normally use double parenthesis in titles like this? If that's the best option, I'd rather stick to normal Peter Parker (Spider-Verse) or something.

That is the standard naming process according to our rules, if I remember correctly, yes.

Yeah there's several examples like this with the Green Lantern pages I've mentioned before

Spoiler

Green Lantern (Hal Jordan) (Millerverse)

Formerly known as Hal Jordan, Green Lantern is one of the if not the strongest people in the Millerverse. While on earth he never realized his ring's full potential, much to Batman's annoyance it all changed when superheroes were outlawed. When that happened he decided to fly away from earth...

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Green Lantern (Kyle Rayner) (Post-Crisis)

Kyle Rayner is a top member of the Green Lantern Corps from Earth. After the rest of the Corps was destroyed, he alone was selected to bear the last power ring and carry on the title. Although he acted alone for many years, when the Corps was reformed, his skill level gave him a position as an...

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Green Lantern (Alan Scott) (Post-Crisis)

Alan Scott was just a normal railroad engineer until he discovered a lantern containing the Starheart, a powerful mystic artifact concealed by the Guardians. He then used his immense power to become the crime fighter, the Green Lantern. His power does not come from a Green Lantern Corps ring. He...

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Green Lantern (John Stewart) (Post-Crisis)

John Stewart is an architect who was selected by the Guardians of the Universe as Hal Jordan's backup after Guy Gardner was seriously injured in a disaster. Although, Jordan objected after seeing that Stewart had a belligerent attitude to authority figures, the Guardians stood by their...

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Green Lantern (Guy Gardner) (DC Universe)

Guy Gardner is a human member of the intergalactic Green Lantern Corps, as well as a superhero on Earth as the self-appointed leader of the Justice Gang, frequently working alongside the likes of Superman. Following the reveal of Superman's alleged mission to rule over Earth by Lex Luthor, Guy...

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So about this...

 

[StarShooter80]

I still stand by my opinion of the page re-names, whether you guys wanna go through with changing it is to ur choice

 

[Legion350]

he did not, Donald Blake and Thor were both gods, so there was a human soul that was unclaimed, a no one's soul, Thor took it and reincarnated

Wtf happened with Donald Blake? Last time I heard about the character he was basically Thor’s alter ego.

 

[Antvasima]

Wtf happened with Donald Blake? Last time I heard about the character he was basically Thor’s alter ego.

From what I recall, he was defined to be a separate person created by Odin long ago, possibly during Tom DeFalco's Thor run, but during Straczynski's Thor run he returned deeply spiritually connected to Thor... and then Donny Cates inexplicably turned him into a powerful deeply homicidal despairing villain who longed for truth, after which Loki tortured him for months to escape their own position as a "god of lies" and dump it on somebody else instead... and then Al Ewing, who had previously been a great Thor writer, let Thor very uncharacteristically steal Blake's soul in order to return to life, and now Blake understandably wants his soul back, and much less understandably heads some kind of nihilistic criminal organisation. It has turned into a big mess all in all.

 

[MrKerf]

Ooh wait, didn’t he get a symbiote? I think I saw something like that.

 

[Legion350]

From what I recall, he was defined to be a separate person created by Odin long ago, possibly during Tom DeFalco's Thor run, but during Straczynski's Thor run he returned deeply spiritually connected to Thor... and then Donny Cates inexplicably turned him into a powerful deeply homicidal despairing villain who longed for truth, after which Loki tortured him for months to escape their own position as a "god of lies" and dump it on somebody else instead... and then Al Ewing, who had previously been a great Thor writer, let Thor very uncharacteristically steal Blake's soul in order to return to life, and now Blake understandably wants his soul back, and much less understandably heads some kind of nihilistic criminal organisation. It has turned into a big mess all in all.

Ooh wait, didn’t he get a symbiote? I think I saw something like that.

I just looked into it, and gotta say it’s a mess. Only modern Marvel could take an already convoluted situation, and make it worse. Jeez, whether Blake is or isn’t a pre-existing person [since it flip flopped apparently], that’s pretty ****** up. Because either Odin made Thor take over some random guy's life to "teach him a lesson" or he created a sentient being for Thor to take over to teach him about humility.

Am I missing something, this genuinely makes no sense. Why would Odin do this? I don’t see what it accomplishes lol

 

[Antvasima]

Well, many hundreds of cooks who all want to cook different dishes tend to cook a poor soup (/extremely incoherent story) when taken together, which is one of Marvel Comics' two main problems as I see it (the other one being that it is often completely morally out there and incredibly hypocritical).

 

[ObberGobb]

ObberGobb/Herald Planning Sandbox

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[Da3ggman]

ObberGobb/Herald Planning Sandbox

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Jesus, swinging for the fences, huh? Can’t say I don’t respect it, but it’s gonna be a shit storm for sure; not only here, but everywhere else on the internet powerscaling wise.

Though, this is making me realize that most of the issues arise from the astral realm and all its slop. Maybe there’s a solution that lies in tempering where we include it in regards to certain feats.

 

[Antvasima]

ObberGobb/Herald Planning Sandbox

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Thank you. The widespread 1-A scaling problem is obviously due to that Marvel writers all have very different ideas regarding the scale of the cosmology and feats within their stories, but all attempts to make our tiering less ridiculous is very appreciated.

 

[Rgerdeena]

Most Heralds do not scale to Thor's Yggdrasil feats. Instead, I propose a new category we might call "God Heralds" that do scale to 1-A, while Heralds scale to High 3-A.. God Heralds would include characters like Thor and Hercules, who performed the Yggdrasil feats. It would also include characters who are explicitly more powerful than a full-power Thor and/or have feats downscaling from Skyfathers themselves. This is closest to what we have now.

I think that any scaling to full power thor should be a case by case basis because if nearly any character says it’s full power Thor than it’s unreliable because they would be referring to what they think is his full power and most of them haven’t witnessed his max output, and not every single character who has matched a skyfather should scale to them because being able to match a skyfather one random time is the definition of outlier especially for characters like Thanos who don’t have a varies

All Heralds scale to 1-A based on Thor's Yggdrasil feats and Eric Masterson's feats. This is due to Yggdrasil encompassing all of Earth-616 and existing across every plane of reality, which we accept as including the Astral Plane, which is 1-A.

we have direct evidence that Thor holds back even against herald tier characters therefore they can’t scale to his peak feats

All Heralds scale to 2-Abased on these same feats. This would scale them to infinite planes of reality, but not to being beyond-dimensional. This would drop the Skyfather downscaling. I believe that this is a more reasonable and consistent interpretation of the feats, as there is hardly any indication of any Herald Tier characters being infinite dimensional, much less beyond dimensional.

Ygsradil is 1-A because it contains “everything” and “all that is” and “all the infinite planes of reality” not because it contains “infinite universes” and “infinite planes of reality”, also like I already said other herald tier characters don’t scale to Thor’s peak

just drop all of these problematic feats and scale all of them to High 3-A

I kind of agree with this but I think that Thor and hulk should still have their 1-A ends because Thor holds back even against other heralds and hulk varies heavily by anger and both of them have several 1-A feats

We drop even High 3-A, and try to find a more consistent lower tier, like 4-B

Strong disagree

 

[Rgerdeena]

Jesus, swinging for the fences, huh? Can’t say I don’t respect it, but it’s gonna be a shit storm for sure; not only here, but everywhere else on the internet powerscaling wise.

Though, this is making me realize that most of the issues arise from the astral realm and all its slop. Maybe there’s a solution that lies in tempering where we include it in regards to certain feats.

astral plane is part of earth 616, any feat that involves all of earth 616 or the abstracts would scale to it

 

[Eseseso]

ObberGobb/Herald Planning Sandbox

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Yeah, as much as I would love 2-A Heralds, that just doesn't fit since those are all 1-A feats, so High 3-A Heralds is probably best

 

[Antvasima]

Well, I think that creating a composite cosmology for Marvel Comics' entire 65 to 87 years of history as if it was a cohesive whole, rather than an extremely self-contradictory mess, was likely a massive mistake that has extremely bloated its statistics.

 

[Rgerdeena]

Well, I think that creating a composite cosmology for Marvel Comics' entire 65 to 87 years of history as if it was a cohesive whole, rather than an extremely self-contradictory mess, was a massive mistake.

Unless something is contradicted then there’s no reason to not include it, unless there’s anything that says the astral plane isn’t the reasons it’s outerversal then it is outerversal and unless there’s anything that says the astral plane isn’t part of earth 616 then it’s part of earth 616

 

[Eseseso]

Well, I think that creating a composite cosmology for Marvel Comics' entire 65 to 87 years of history as if it was a cohesive whole, rather than an extremely self-contradictory mess, was likely a massive mistake that has extremely bloated its statistics.

Considering Marvel continues to refer issues from as far back as the 60's, there is absolutely zero reason to split the cosmology solely because of vibes

 

[Antvasima]

Just because some writers occasionally refer to concepts in older stories, this does not mean that anywhere near all of them are even aware of a small portion of the full context.

 

[Rgerdeena]

Just because some writers occasionally refer to concepts in older stories, this does not mean that anywhere near all of them are even aware of a small portion of the full context.

What writers are aware of is irrelevant, we don’t judge how powerful a writer thinks a character is we judge the fiction itself, judging what the writers know would be entirely illogical because it is impossible to know what the vast majority of writers think and on top of that a lot of them don’t care very much about powerscaling

 

[Eseseso]

Just because some writers occasionally refer to concepts in older stories, this does not mean that anywhere near all of them are even aware of a small portion of the full context.

It happens quite often, and the writers have more say over Marvel narrative than your headcanons.

 

[ObberGobb]

Yeah, as much as I would love 2-A Heralds, that just doesn't fit since those are all 1-A feats, so High 3-A Heralds is probably best

Which option are you leaning towards? Everyone is High 3-A, or most are High 3-A but Thor and some others are 1-A?

 

[Arcker123]

Another Gorgon Thread!

Another Gorgon thread????? As for the proposal, along with Telepathy, Gorgon should have Mind Manipulation for being able to perform telepathic attacks by controlling a person's worst memories to attack them their minds. This extends beyond the purview of Telepathy, as he's directly...

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