Superman speed upgrade and abilities addition

[GeneralSol16]

DC database says nothing about the characters themselves being altered in it’s long explanation of dark crisis, and no offense but unless you have scans or any form of proof, I trust dc database more than you

No offense at all.
Read the "New History of the DC Universe", even the Database page itself clarifies everything.

 

[Rgerdeena]

No offense at all.
Read the "New History of the DC Universe", even the Database page itself clarifies everything.

“New History of the DC Universe” doesn’t say anything about dark crisis altering the characters

 

[GeneralSol16]

“New History of the DC Universe” doesn’t say anything about dark crisis altering the characters

The point is that currently, DC Characters don't scale to anything prior, meaning that these scans don't apply to Rebirth Superman

 

[Rgerdeena]

The point is that currently, DC Characters don't scale to anything prior, meaning that these scans don't apply to Rebirth Superman

warworld apocalypse happened after infinite frontier started and nothing after that altered Superman therefore these scans apply to his post warworld apocalypse key

 

[Hayato5652]

The point is that currently, DC Characters don't scale to anything prior, meaning that these scans don't apply to Rebirth Superman

There is no need to create a new profile for every single event.

Besides that, Superman in the Dark Crisis comic remembers the events of Crisis on Infinite Earths, which means he is the same Superman. So I think there is no problem with transferring all of his feats after the Justice League (2018) comic to the Rebirth profile.

 

[GeneralSol16]

Besides that, Superman in the Dark Crisis comic remembers the events of Crisis on Infinite Earths, which means he is the same Superman.

What? No lol.
Not only he has so many inconsistencies that scaling him from that would be stupid, but also unnacurate, and of course, extremely wanked.

So I think there is no problem with transferring all of his feats after the Justice League (2018) comic to the Rebirth profile.

No.
He suffered Power-Ups, retcons, and a complete new cosmology, you can't do that without massacring the Verse.

 

[GeneralSol16]

warworld apocalypse happened after infinite frontier started and nothing after that altered Superman therefore these scans apply to his post warworld apocalypse key

Now you have two statements without any support and a "feat" that by itself isn't a feat at all and would still be an outlier, fantastic.

 

[Rgerdeena]

What? No lol.
Not only he has so many inconsistencies that scaling him from that would be stupid, but also unnacurate, and of course, extremely wanked..

Scaling from what, that had nothing to do with scaling and was just to show it’s the same version of him

No.
He suffered Power-Ups, retcons, and a complete new cosmology, you can't do that without massacring the Verse.

him having temporary power ups doesn’t invalidate scaling from when he doesn’t have a power up, what retcons are you referring to, the cosmology change didn’t affect individual characters

 

[Rgerdeena]

Now you have two statements without any support and a "feat" that by itself isn't a feat at all and would still be an outlier, fantastic.

those two statements have the support of the feat you just mentioned and that feat isn’t by itself because there are the two statements and it isn’t an outlier because he holds back and has multiple reasons for his power varying

 

[GeneralSol16]

those two statements have the support of the feat you just mentioned and that feat isn’t by itself because there are the two statements and it isn’t an outlier because he holds back and has multiple reasons for his power varying

The feat it's from an alternate version that doesn't scale since the continuities were retconned.
And the feat isn't supported by shit since those statements come from a stronger, faster and different version of the character.

It matters less than nothing if he holds back, he has anti feats of him being UNABLE to do something, not just "He loses to him", even in outer space.
This shouldn't be accepted.

 

[Rgerdeena]

The feat it's from an alternate version that doesn't scale since the continuities were retconned.

rebirth wasn’t retconned, all of the rebirth stuff still happened

And the feat isn't supported by shit since those statements come from a stronger, faster and different version of the character.

The two statements are still enough for post warworld apocalypse Superman

It matters less than nothing if he holds back, he has anti feats of him being UNABLE to do something, not just "He loses to him", even in outer space.

Holding back isn’t the only reason his power varies and he holds back

 

[AerrowStorm1]

OK to correct some stuff:

Post Death Metal, the idea isn't that the events of Rebirth were retconned out, it's that SOME of the events of Pre-Crisis now happened as well. It's an "unreboot" not a reboot.

That's why we get confirmation the Supergirl who died in COIE is the same one from Girl From Krypton and why with Superman specifically, we only really get told that his past as Superboy is back in business (as seen in the recent Action comics run) and that he fought in the Crisis and saw Supergirl die.

Then the third book explains literally everything in Post Crisis still happened, then all of N52 and Rebirth happened and the events of the Death Metal arc "restored history" not rebooted it, same for Doomsday Clock, which "Removed changes" not made them.

 

[GeneralSol16]

OK to correct some stuff:

Post Death Metal, the idea isn't that the events of Rebirth were retconned out, it's that SOME of the events of Pre-Crisis now happened as well. It's an "unreboot" not a reboot.

That's why we get confirmation the Supergirl who died in COIE is the same one from Girl From Krypton and why with Superman specifically, we only really get told that his past as Superboy is back in business (as seen in the recent Action comics run) and that he fought in the Crisis and saw Supergirl die.

Then the third book explains literally everything in Post Crisis still happened, then all of N52 and Rebirth happened and the events of the Death Metal arc "restored history" not rebooted it, same for Doomsday Clock, which "Removed changes" not made them.

Except it's not like that.
Currently, a lot of events were changed or didn't happen at all, for example, Cyborg is now a founding member of the League and Darkseid invading Earth was the first time they joined, the next mission was the Morrison storyline of the League and then the Pre-Crisis issue. The story isn't remotely the same, they made a lot of adjustments and changes so everything could fit under the new circumstances.

Scaling everything as you're doing is just wrong.

 

[GeneralSol16]

rebirth wasn’t retconned, all of the rebirth stuff still happened.

Not in the same way.

The two statements are still enough for post warworld apocalypse Superman

Lmao, not even close.

Holding back isn’t the only reason his power varies and he holds back

Superman doesn't have immeasurable speed, that's it.
An outlier feat that can be heavely countered by the sheer amount of Anti Feats, in a scene where he needed a device. While the other supporting evidence comes from a stronger, different version of the character.

 

[AerrowStorm1]

Except it's not like that.
Currently, a lot of events were changed or didn't happen at all, for example, Cyborg is now a founding member of the League and Darkseid invading Earth was the first time they joined, the next mission was the Morrison storyline of the League and then the Pre-Crisis issue. The story isn't remotely the same, they made a lot of adjustments and changes so everything could fit under the new circumstances.

Scaling everything as you're doing is just wrong.

I'm sorry? That's not a change. The fight against Darkseid isn't considered the first meeting of the Justice League, just the first time several members fought together.

The next page explictly states the Justice League wasn't officially joined until the Appellaxian invasion. This is from JLA Year One in Post Crisis, and that series explictly states many of the pre-Crisis adventures still happened. That's not removing anything, that's saying "this one happened, then this one happened"

Again, this isn't "Oh the universe had a massive change" this is "we put these post Crisis events back into the universe" which is what the comic literally said. That they were putting things back into play.

They even explictly state IN UNIVERSE the last reboot was the n52 and it was undone.

To use the same logic,

Post Zero Hour a lot of things changed in universe without it being a full reboot: Batman never caught his parents' killer nor does he know who the murderer was. Batman was never a member of the Justice League. Finally, Talia (daughter of Ras al Ghul) never had Bruce's baby. Bruce Wayne legally adopted Dick Grayson. During his days as Robin, Dick Grayson had a traumatic failure during a confrontation with Two-Face. Catwoman's origin was also largely revamped

Same for Infinite Crisis which also effected a ton, including Superman getting a new origin, The alterations of Jason Todd's origin after Crisis on Infinite Earths and his resurrection, the Doom Patrol getting their origins rebooted and then unrebooted, Joe Chill being arrested for the murder of Thomas Wayne and Martha Wayne, Superman's "Legion" membership being re-retconned in, Power Girl getting her Pre-Crisis history back, Earth-2 Justice Society being a thing again. Etc.

In all of those, we don't treat them as entirely separate versions, just the same Post Crisis universe since narratively, it's supposed to be the same Post Crisis universe but with alterations.

And here, narratively, it's supposed to be the same Rebirth universe but with alterations.

To be consistent with your claim, we'd need separate profiles for Post Crisis Superman, Birthright Superman, Post Infinite Crisis/Secret Origins Superman, New 52 Superman, Post Crisis Superman before Superman Reborn, Superman Reborn Superman, and Post Death Metal Superman

 

[Rgerdeena]

Not in the same way.

All that happened was non rebirth stuff was added to the rebirth timeline

Lmao, not even close.

It is plenty when he’s only been as strong and fast as he is for 4 years and he’s said concepts like space time are meaningless to him and he heavily varies

Superman doesn't have immeasurable speed, that's it.
An outlier feat that can be heavely countered by the sheer amount of Anti Feats, in a scene where he needed a device. While the other supporting evidence comes from a stronger, different version of the character.

in the four years that he has repeatedly been stated to be stronger than ever, he has gotten two statements of being able to time travel one of which is explicitly from raw speed, that is plenty for post warworld apocalypse superman to have immeasurable speed at his peak especially since his power heavily varies

 

[GeneralSol16]

I'm sorry? That's not a change. The fight against Darkseid isn't considered the first meeting of the Justice League, just the first time several members fought together.

The next page explictly states the Justice League wasn't officially joined until the Appellaxian invasion. This is from JLA Year One in Post Crisis, and that series explictly states many of the pre-Crisis adventures still happened. That's not removing anything, that's saying "this one happened, then this one happened"

Again, this isn't "Oh the universe had a massive change" this is "we put these post Crisis events back into the universe" which is what the comic literally said. That they were putting things back into play.

They even explictly state IN UNIVERSE the last reboot was the n52 and it was undone.

To use the same logic,

Post Zero Hour a lot of things changed in universe without it being a full reboot: Batman never caught his parents' killer nor does he know who the murderer was. Batman was never a member of the Justice League. Finally, Talia (daughter of Ras al Ghul) never had Bruce's baby. Bruce Wayne legally adopted Dick Grayson. During his days as Robin, Dick Grayson had a traumatic failure during a confrontation with Two-Face. Catwoman's origin was also largely revamped

Same for Infinite Crisis which also effected a ton, including Superman getting a new origin, The alterations of Jason Todd's origin after Crisis on Infinite Earths and his resurrection, the Doom Patrol getting their origins rebooted and then unrebooted, Joe Chill being arrested for the murder of Thomas Wayne and Martha Wayne, Superman's "Legion" membership being re-retconned in, Power Girl getting her Pre-Crisis history back, Earth-2 Justice Society being a thing again. Etc.

In all of those, we don't treat them as entirely separate versions, just the same Post Crisis universe since narratively, it's supposed to be the same Post Crisis universe but with alterations.

And here, narratively, it's supposed to be the same Rebirth universe but with alterations.

All of that is exactly the same. The history of the Universe is different, making the already wanked scaling more wanky.

To be consistent with your claim, we'd need separate profiles for Post Crisis Superman, Birthright Superman, Post Infinite Crisis/Secret Origins Superman, New 52 Superman, Post Crisis Superman before Superman Reborn, Superman Reborn Superman, and Post Death Metal Superman

Pretty much, yes.
Not profiles, but keys, since all of it can be countered as easy as "Did this event happen? Yes? No? Prove it."

 

[Rgerdeena]

All of that is exactly the same. The history of the Universe is different, making the already wanked scaling more wanky.

The history isn’t different it has more added to it, there is a difference, all of the rebirth stuff still happened just some post crisis and pre crisis stuff also happened

Pretty much, yes.
Not profiles, but keys, since all of it can be countered as easy as "Did this event happen? Yes? No? Prove it."

Not every event needs a difrent key especially since a lot of them didn’t significantly alter characters

 

[Legion350]

I think Godernet had the best proposal for handling this. I was looking at the scans, I think "Immeasurable" with time travel works, with information I have, but there is no reason to treat it as a combat speed feat. Not claiming Superman's flight/movement shouldn't scale to his reflexes and combat speed under most circumstances, but this is a unique case, and as others have pointed out, he has anti-feats for being able to fight at Immeasurable Speed.

Personally, I think it makes more sense to keep this thread to the topic of the speed/ability upgrades, for this version of Superman, instead of focusing on rescaling everyone bc of continuity changes. I agree there should be a discussion/crt on reorganizing the pages especially with the Dark Crisis/Infinite Frontier/canon changes etc, but arguing about a zillion things at once makes the revision disorganized, plus that also requires mass rescaling of most of the DC pages. Otherwise, we might end up debating for 10-15 pages without any of the original suggestion that were accepted going through.

 

[Eficiente]

If this were to be put in his profile, can you guys show here how it will be worded and sourced? I will comment based on that.

 

[Rgerdeena]

If this were to be put in his profile, can you guys show here how it will be worded and sourced? I will comment based on that.

What specifically are you referring to

 

[Antvasima]

I think that GeneralSol16 and Legion350 make sense here.

 

[Eficiente]

What specifically are you referring to

The Immeasurable speed part.

 

[Rgerdeena]

The Immeasurable speed part.

Something like MFTL+ (combat, flight, and travel speed justification), Immeasurable via Time Travel (he can accelerate fast enough to move through time)

 

[Rgerdeena]

I think that GeneralSol16 and Legion350 make sense here.

Generalsol16 and legion350 said different stuff about the same stuff so which do you agree with

 

[Antvasima]

Well, I think that GeneralSol is correct regarding that we cannot scale different versions of Superman to each other unless they went through the exact same events, but I also think that Legion350 makes a good point regarding that Immeasurable travel speed (but not combat speed) via time travel seems fine for the version of Superman that the relevant feats apply to.

 

[GeneralSol16]

Well, I think that GeneralSol is correct regarding that we cannot scale different versions of Superman to each other unless they went through the exact same events, but I also think that Legion350 makes a good point regarding that Immeasurable travel speed (but not combat speed) via time travel seems fine for the version of Superman that the relevant feats apply to.

I can agree with this.
Post War World Supes, who shouldn't be same as Rebirth, could have it only as an ability / specific soratuon level of speed

Although we should see if this comic is still valid / relevant, as involves a lot of weight about the history of Krypton, and has a lot of time travel shenanigans.

And considering how the history was rewritten, maybe these events didn't happen at all

 

[Rgerdeena]

Although we should see if this comic is still valid / relevant, as involves a lot of weight about the history of Krypton, and has a lot of time travel shenanigans.

neither of those things would make it invalid or irrelevant

And considering how the history was rewritten, maybe these events didn't happen at all

History was “rewritten” before those events happened so history being rewritten can’t have made them not have happened

 

[GeneralSol16]

neither of those things would make it invalid or irrelevant

Of course it would.
If something happens that changes how these events happened, then it cannot be used.

History was “rewritten” before those events happened so history being rewritten can’t have made them not have happened

Eh? If something changes the events, then it's invalid. And you gotta be kidding me, your scan takes place in 2018 or so, everything was restructured in 2021.

 

[Rgerdeena]

Of course it would.
If something happens that changes how these events happened, then it cannot be used.

something changing something else doesn’t automatically make it unusable

Eh? If something changes the events, then it's invalid. And you gotta be kidding me, your scan takes place in 2018 or so, everything was restructured in 2021.

1 scan that I have repeatedly said is just supporting evidence is from 2018, the other two are from 2025

 

[GeneralSol16]

something changing something else doesn’t automatically make it unusable

Prove it's not
Prove that it's exactly the same, because I can prove that the History as a whole got altered.

1 scan that I have repeatedly said is just supporting evidence is from 2018, the other two are from 2025

Are you serious? Your entire OP is based on the treadmill thing, without it, you have two statements that aren't shit without an actual feat.

 

[Rgerdeena]

Prove it's not
Prove that it's exactly the same, because I can prove that the History as a whole got altered.

Nothing would have made it not have happened

Are you serious? Your entire OP is based on the treadmill thing, without it, you have two statements that aren't shit without an actual feat.

First of all over half of the stuff in my OP has nothing to do with the treadmill thing, and second of all I have repeatedly stated that the treadmill thing is just supporting evidence, and third of all there is no reason why the statements would be worthless

 

[Eficiente]

Something like MFTL+ (combat, flight, and travel speed justification), Immeasurable via Time Travel (he can accelerate fast enough to move through time)

Yes, but I want to see the sources that we claim show this Immeasurable.

 

[AerrowStorm1]

I can agree with this.
Post War World Supes, who shouldn't be same as Rebirth, could have it only as an ability / specific soratuon level of speed

Although we should see if this comic is still valid / relevant, as involves a lot of weight about the history of Krypton, and has a lot of time travel shenanigans.

And considering how the history was rewritten, maybe these events didn't happen at all

As far as we currently know, all of those events still happened as Infinite Frontier in 2021 explictly references it when discussing Jon Kent's past and Superman explictly references the events in Superman Treasury 2025 when reflecting on his own past.

 

[Hecky2222]

So far what are staff conclusions

 

[Rgerdeena]

Yes, but I want to see the sources that we claim show this Immeasurable.

Superman is capable of accelerating fast enough to time travel

 

[Rgerdeena]

So far what are staff conclusions

Godernt agrees with intangibility and agrees with resistance to limited power nullification and agrees with speed being MFTL+, immeasurable via time travel and agrees with time travel and is neutral on immortality(type 1)
Darkdragonmedus agrees with godernt mostly but disagrees with immeasurable speed
Antvasima agrees with MFTL+, immeasurable via time travel and agrees with time travel and agrees with vibration manipulation and agrees with intangibility and agrees with immortality(type 1) and disagrees with resistance to power nullification

 

[Antvasima]

Kryptonite isn't power nullification. It is a specific weakness that is poisonous to Superman. That is it. So we cannot consider that Superman used to be able to become golden to protect himself against Kryptonite as a general resistsnce to power nullification. That is very self-evident.

Also, if I remember correctly, Mark Waid's History of the DC Universe comicbook estsblished that Superman's golden form in the world of Kryptonite storyline took place some time in the past, and Superman does not seem to be able to use his golden form in the present day anymore.

 

[Rgerdeena]

Kryptonite isn't power nullification. It is a specific weakness that is poisonous to Superman. That is it. So we cannot consider that Superman used to be able to become golden to protect himself against Kryptonite as a general resistsnce to power nullification. That is very self-evident.

Our power nullification page already treats power nullification like all power nullification isn’t “general power nullification” and that power nullification only works on the stuff it’s been shown to work on so kryptonite would have power nullification that only works on kryptonites

Also, if I remember correctly, Mark Waid's History of the DC Universe comicbook estsblished that Superman's golden form in the world of Kryptonite storyline took place some time in the past, and Superman does not seem to be able to use his golden form in the present day anymore.

Actually that established it as one of the most recent events

 

[Antvasima]

Our power nullification page already treats power nullification like all power nullification isn’t “general power nullification” and that power nullification only works on the stuff it’s been shown to work on so kryptonite would have power nullification that only works on kryptonites

Well, green Kryptonite is a poison, not power nullification.

Actually that established it as one of the most recent events

Yes, but one that happened before the ones in other Superman comicbook where he does not have a golden form, if I remember correctly.