Star Wars Discussion Thread Canon/Legends- Episode VI Return of the Threadi

[Shadowbokunohero]

Yeahhhhh but not by 100,000 times! And Anakin was almost close to Sidious in power, and Yoda 1v1'd Sidious!

It all makes sense, man!

imma be real with you, you shouting with the ! i have no idea if your shitposting or being serious lol

 

[DaReaperMan]

imma be real you shouting with the ! i have no idea if your shitposting or being serious lol

It's half-joking.

Like, the scaling is there, between Obi-Wan, Anakin Papa Palps, and Yoda, a lot of people have good reason to scale to the feat from those four, It's just a bit silly that this one feat is being used to scale basically an entire verse.

 

[Shadowbokunohero]

oh ok thanks for clarifying

 

[Shadowbokunohero]

The new kylo ren comic is pretty neat

 

[Phsccarvalho]

ROTS Anakin being noted be one of the strongest Jedi in history

Anakin has made this statement since his version in Clone Wars.

 

[Nonynho]

hey, saw y'all speaking a bit about Boba and i have two questions

what do y'all think about the time he could've taken a killshot at Vader just didn't because he wasn't sure if the latter could survive/respond to it?

Do y'all who know about Mando think he's > Boba?

 

[Shadowbokunohero]

Anakin has made this statement since his version in Clone Wars.

NO
the statement in question thats used on our profiles is in the context of the Jedi order at the time of the clone wars not in all of history. which doesnt mean much because most of the order during the clone wars including council members dont compare to the top tiers in the HR at all. Anakin does get the strongest in history statements a bit later on though.

 

[Phsccarvalho]

It's half-joking.

Like, the scaling is there, between Obi-Wan, Anakin Papa Palps, and Yoda, a lot of people have good reason to scale to the feat from those four, It's just a bit silly that this one feat is being used to scale basically an entire verse.

Furthermore, based on these guys, many people can be scaled up, even if it's downscaling.

As you mentioned, Grievous, for example, fought Yoda. From there, many people can be scaled up/downscaled.

Kit Fisto, Eeth Koth, even Padawan Ahsoka (although he couldn't win).

NO
the statement in question thats used on our profiles is in the context of the Jedi order at the time of the clone wars not in all of history. which doesnt mean much because most of the order during the clone wars including council members dont compare to the top tiers in the HR at all. Anakin does get the strongest in history statements a bit later on though.

 

[Nonynho]

i think it's quite weird to try achieving "most powerful jedi" by guide statements alone, just in Yoda's profile i indexed 5 lol

 

[Phsccarvalho]

i think it's quite weird to try achieving "most powerful jedi" by guide statements alone, just in Yoda's profile i indexed 5 lol

Sometimes Anakin or Luke are stated as having this title, or as probably having it.

Like, damn, even Rey has something similar. In Jedi Pocket she receives the title of "Greatest Jedi of All," and in that section of the book they compare her to Yoda, Anakin, Luke, etc.

Although in this case it can be argued whether it refers to power itself. Since during the comparisons made in that section, the book cites all the great feats of each character to decide who was the "greatest."

 

[Shadowbokunohero]

The sentence “Anakin Skywalker, one of the strongest Jedi of all time, took Ahsoka as his apprentice” is a retrospective statement, it describes Anakin's overall legacy assessed with hindsight,Its like saying “Michael Jordan, one of the greatest basketball players ever, played college basketball at UNC.”
That doesnt imply college Jordan > NBA Jordan , it just connects a later evaluated status to an earlier event.

the image in question also consistent with the timeline of when Anakin took Ahsoka as his apprentice.

 

[Shadowbokunohero]

Sometimes Anakin or Luke are stated as having this title, or as probably having it.

Like, damn, even Rey has something similar. In Jedi Pocket she receives the title of "Greatest Jedi of All," and in that section of the book they compare her to Yoda, Anakin, Luke, etc.

Although in this case it can be argued whether it refers to power itself. Since during the comparisons made in that section, the book cites all the great feats of each character to decide who was the "greatest."

Rey also gets glazed by Palpatine too

Kylo has really good accolades too. to be honest if your a semi relevant or main character your gonna get generally good scaling juice.

 

[Shadowbokunohero]

Rayvis considers the Prequel era Jedi overall a pale of their High Republic selves


and by the time of the clone wars, the Jedi's ability to wield the force was effectively was diminished

 

[Shadowbokunohero]

also stellan gios can one shot an emergence, not sure where we currently scale emrgences but we know some of them shattered the Koboh moon in Jedi survivor

 

[Phsccarvalho]

The sentence “Anakin Skywalker, one of the strongest Jedi of all time, took Ahsoka as his apprentice” is a retrospective statement, it describes Anakin's overall legacy assessed with hindsight,Its like saying “Michael Jordan, one of the greatest basketball players ever, played college basketball at UNC.”
That doesnt imply college Jordan > NBA Jordan , it just connects a later evaluated status to an earlier event.

the image in question also consistent with the timeline of when Anakin took Ahsoka as his apprentice.

What? No.

This book summarizes Ahsoka's story in chronological order, and the text is written in chronological order following the story, describing the part of the story shown.

That's why the book uses past tense verbs, since it's describing scenes from the past. Anakin was already considered that way when he took Ahsoka as his padawan. When this statement is made, the CW time period is used because it refers to that period, and it doesn't say something like "Anakin the guy who will become" but rather that he already was during the scene shown.

As you can see, all the descriptions below or above each image are describing the exact scene/time period shown in the image. They never talk about the future.

The phrase refers to the fact that Anakin, during that period of time, who was already considered one of the most powerful, took Ashoka as his Padawan.

Rey also gets glazed by Palpatine too

Kylo has really good accolades too. to be honest if your a semi relevant or main character your gonna get generally good scaling juice.

The funny thing is, I think nobody really remembers Cin Draling, and the guy has made several statements about being the best duelist in the Jedi Order.

 

[Sir_Marvulous]

IIRC during the time of Legends, the usual thing was like "ok the Jedi of the past were stronger on a general level but our main cast includes some of the strongest in history"

I can see that being the case here. The strongest Jedi of more recent times share a ballpark of power with Palpatine; the ultimate result of Bane's line of Sith, which had increased in power over time since its inception

 

[Shadowbokunohero]

i think i should clarify most top tier jedi in skywalker saga and beyond are on par or stronger than some HR Jedi, just that ton average HR Jedi are stronger than modern Jedi, so someone being strong in the prequel era isnt inherently a good argument to be scaling to the top tiers of the HR era.

for example our current Yoda page says that Yoda is massively above the HR Jedi, which isnt really true, people like Porter Engle, Avar kriss and Stalin Gios are in same ballpark as Yoda who is superior to his clone wars era self.

 

[Nonynho]

for example our current Yoda page says that Yoda is massively above the HR Jedi, which isnt really true

but those you mentioned are the average HR jedi?
Are the average HR jedi at the same level as prequels' Yoda? i find it quite hard to believe

 

[Nonynho]

also stellan gios can one shot an emergence, not sure where we currently scale emrgences but we know some of them shattered the Koboh moon in Jedi survivor

Get @Hagane_no_Saiyajin a scan for this feat, they'll gladly calc it from what i know of them

 

[Shadowbokunohero]

Dont really agree with this because chronological storytelling routinely uses retrospective qualifiers while narrating past scenes,

for example “Napoleon Bonaparte, one of history’s greatest generals, was exiled to Elba.”

that sentence can appear in a strictly chronological history book without implying Napoleon was already regarded as one of history’s greatest at the time of exile, let alone at the start of his career.chronology controls event order, not scope of evaluation.

that being said this point int really worth arguing over as i don't inherently disagree with Clone Wars Anakin being that strong and its not really the point i was making, the point was that characters like Anakin who have statements the encompass the larger history have a stronger merit to scaling to these characters than a random jedi knight who happens to be called strong because his a jedi knight during the prequel era.

 

[Shadowbokunohero]

but those you mentioned are the average HR jedi?
Are the average HR jedi at the same level as prequels' Yoda? i find it quite hard to believe

oh no then i misunderstood the Yoda statement, i think Yoda is prob stronger than your average Jedi in the HR still, the issue with this is that by arguing his vastly stronger means people like Grievous scales to this "vastly stronger" which then scales to the random Jedi of the prequel era which is just not valid at all lore wise.
even padawans from the High republic have significantly better feats than most knights in clone wars era.

 

[Rutæhh]

Dont really agree with this because chronological storytelling routinely uses retrospective qualifiers while narrating past scenes,

for example “Napoleon Bonaparte, one of history’s greatest generals, was exiled to Elba.”

that sentence can appear in a strictly chronological history book without implying Napoleon was already regarded as one of history’s greatest at the time of exile, let alone at the start of his career.chronology controls event order, not scope of evaluation.

that being said this point int really worth arguing over as i don't inherently disagree with Clone Wars Anakin being that strong and its not really the point i was making, the point was that characters like Anakin who have statements the encompass the larger history have a stronger merit to scaling to these characters than a random jedi knight who happens to be called strong because his a jedi knight during the prequel era.

could be used as supporting evidence imo

 

[Phsccarvalho]

i think i should clarify most top tier jedi in skywalker saga and beyond are on par or stronger than some HR Jedi, just that ton average HR Jedi are stronger than modern Jedi, so someone being strong in the prequel era isnt inherently a good argument to be scaling to the top tiers of the HR era.

for example our current Yoda page says that Yoda is massively above the HR Jedi, which isnt really true, people like Porter Engle, Avar kriss and Stalin Gios are in same ballpark as Yoda who is superior to his clone wars era self.

That's why I never made scale CRTs, they suck, as long as Anakin/Vader's 7-B doesn't change, I don't really care what happens.

IIRC during the time of Legends, the usual thing was like "ok the Jedi of the past were stronger on a general level but our main cast includes some of the strongest in history"

And then we added downscaling to the mix, hahaha.

that being said this point int really worth arguing

ok

 

[Shadowbokunohero]

could be used as supporting evidence imo

for sure its also not really a stretch

pre Attack of the clone wars Anakin was already above the phantom menace darth maul and obi wan.

i might have come off more pedantic than intended.

 

[Shadowbokunohero]

i do agree with @DaReaperMan we should prov get more calcs in general to avoid potential circular scaling and scaling reliance on a single feat.

 

[Phsccarvalho]

pre Attack of the clone wars Anakin was already above the phantom menace darth maul and obi wan.

There's a magazine called Jedi Master (easy to find) that displays Force levels and combat skill levels.

But it's really funny, because, like...

They put Anakin and Obi-Wan's Force level (both AOTC) higher than Count Dooku's (AOTC). Besides that, they put Anakin's Force level (AOTC) as the same as Yoda and Mace Windu's from RotS.

They also put Grievous and Boba Fett's combat skill as the same (level 85).

You'll probably find this funny.

 

[Shadowbokunohero]

You'll probably find this funny.

theres this one magazine i forgot the name that had Kanan Above a ton of council members from S1 lol

 

[Shadowbokunohero]

Get @Hagane_no_Saiyajin a scan for this feat, they'll gladly calc it from what i know of them

@Hagane_no_Saiyajin

 

[DaReaperMan]

i do agree with @DaReaperMan we should prov get more calcs in general to avoid potential circular scaling and scaling reliance on a single feat.

Just like Legends: I hate scaling to one feat.

But just like legends, I do NOT feel like doing everything required to figure out a new scale

 

[Shadowbokunohero]

, they suck, as long as Anakin/Vader's 7-B doesn't change, I don't really care what happens.

Vader would upscale regardless, he outclasses most of the HR Jedi by a lot via Jedi survivor alone

 

[Legion350]

Also there is a similar statement from Yoda to Mace in movies as well. Although I agree Yoda is least impacted by this. He still has his High 7-C as a backup at least lol. All jokes aside, I agree with keeping 7-B for some of the characters. And I should note Yoda is not a great person to backscale the verse from using Grevious. If you look at the quote where Filoni talks about he handled Ahsoka cautiously because of how powerful she has become, he also says explicitly he had to use Yoda a lot less during Clone Wars because he could basically beat everyone.

 

[Phsccarvalho]

i do agree with @DaReaperMan we should prov get more calcs in general to avoid potential circular scaling and scaling reliance on a single feat.

Well, Hagane is doing his best with the calculations.

At least we have a lot of things with similar levels, so I don't think outliers are a problem.

theres this one magazine i forgot the name that had Kanan Above a ton of council members from S1 lol

Since you're here, I want to ask you two questions.

I want to know if anything can be gleaned from these two texts.

No place is barren of the Force, and they who are one with the Force can always find the possibility of life.

Awareness precedes consciousness. The warmth is luxuriated in and drawn upon before the mind is cognizant of doing so. Next comes the illusion of linear time. Only then does a sense of individuality arise, a remembrance of what was and what is, a knowledge of one’s self as separate from the Force. It provides a vantage point for experiencing the physical world in its complexity and ecstasy, but the pain of that separation is endurable only because unity will come again, and soon.

That fracture from the all, that memory of temporal existence, is most easily summed up with the word the fracture was once called by. The name.

“Qui-Gon.”

The name is spoken by another. Qui-Gon has been summoned. He draws upon his memories of himself and takes shape, reassembling the form he last had in life. It seems to him that he feels flesh wrap around bones, hair and skin over flesh, robes over skin—and then, as naturally to him as though he had done so yesterday, he pulls down the hood of his Jedi cloak and looks upon his Padawan.

“Obi-Wan.” It is worth the travail of individual existence just to say that name again. So he says the other name, too. “Ben.”

Obi-Wan Kenobi’s hair has turned white. Lines have etched their traces along his forehead, around his blue eyes. He wears Jedi robes so worn and ragged as to be indistinguishable from the garb of the impoverished hermit he pretends to be. Most would walk past this man without a second glance. Yet while Qui-Gon perceives the physical realities of Obi-Wan’s appearance, he is not limited to human sight any longer. He also sees the confident general of the Clone Wars, the strong young Padawan who followed his master into battle, even the rebellious little boy at the Temple that no Master was in any hurry to train. They are all equally part of Obi-Wan, each stage of his existence vivid in this moment.

https://www.starwars.com/news/qui-gon-jinn-from-a-certain-point-of-view-excerpt

I like to believe that you don’t use the Force. The Force uses you. We see this time and time again throughout the Star Wars saga, from Luke Skywalker allowing the Force to guide his proton torpedoes in A New Hope to Chirrut Îmwe letting the Force flow through him to take down a squad of Jedha stormtroopers in Rogue One.

In “Twilight of the Apprentice” we see it with a newly blind Kanan as he allows himself to be a vessel for the Force, which leads him to swiftly defeat Maul, a far more experienced opponent with the advantage of sight. The best of those who touch the Force allow themselves to be subject to it. Kanan Jarrus joins their ranks here.

-- http://www.starwars.com/news/rebels-revisited-5-essential-kanan-jarrus-episodes

 

[Nonynho]

still, the issue with this is that by arguing his vastly stronger means people like Grievous scales to this "vastly stronger" which then scales to the random Jedi of the prequel era which is just not valid at all lore wise.
even padawans from the High republic have significantly better feats than most knights in clone wars era.

Well, who performed the feats we argued were Padawans and knights, and whoever you mean by "people like Grievous" for sure scales heavily above your average HR padawan or knight

Grievous? Kylo Ren? Hell, even Ezra? you'd need some crazy good reasons to say that they're < an HR padawan

edit: the point is pretty much what the colleague stated above: it is not like everyone upscales from those HR jedi, it's just that we accompany some of the craziest biggest baddest mfs ever so it seems like so
but i know that a huge chunk of the Jedi Order wouldn't upscale, i just think every affected character does upscale

 

[Dinobot1996]

Well, if the High Republic era was the general peak of the Jedi, I guess that makes it even more impressive that Cal Kestis could put up a fight against Dagan Gera and defeat Rayvis.

 

[Shadowbokunohero]

grievous has a bunch of anti feats too, like losing to some random gungans lmfao

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

grievous has a bunch of anti feats too, like losing to some random gungans lmfao

God I ******* hate TCW Grievous, he's so ass.

 

[Phsccarvalho]

Just like Legends: I hate scaling to one feat.

But just like legends, I do NOT feel like doing everything required to figure out a new scale

he also says explicitly he had to use Yoda a lot less during Clone Wars because he could basically beat everyone.

Fioli also said that Ventress was the Grand Inquisitor, until she was defeated by a random Inquisitor.

grievous has a bunch of anti feats too, like losing to some random gungans lmfao

Who in Star Wars doesn't have one? (cough cough Jedi from the High Republic being mistaken for smoke)

 

[Nonynho]

grievous has a bunch of anti feats too, like losing to some random gungans lmfao

bro that was an L but was not an anti-feat
Grievous has a glaring weakness and a crazy good strategy that Jedi cannot exploit because they're too much worried being scared shitless by his presence
the gungans are too idiotic and that mf could exploit it because of his dumbass

that was 1000% a Lord of the Rings situation (Hobbits are the only ones that could pull through doing the task)

 

[Nonynho]

Who in Star Wars doesn't have one?

Yoda has the worst
was beating the guy in one room and in the other mf thrown chairs at him so bad that he went into 20 years of exile ;-; (SidiousDatena)

 

[Shadowbokunohero]

Well, who performed the feats we argued were Padawans and knights, and whoever you mean by "people like Grievous" for sure scales heavily above your average HR padawan or knight

Grievous scales to people weaker than most of Jedi Knights in HR.

Grievous? Kylo Ren? Hell, even Ezra? you'd need some crazy good reasons to say that they're < an HR padawan

because HR padawans have objectively much better feats to people like Ezra and anyone grievous defeated properly. (even siege of mandalore Ahsoka struggling to hold back a starfigher is something the padawans can do) i mean theres a reason why grievous is entirely reliant on the baby HR Jedi for giving him his own rating (because his feats suck ass lmfao)

given the insane amount of times the HR jedi are stated to be the jedi at their peak , why should Grievous scale over your average HR Jedi when he has so many anti feats of losing to people not even top tier in his own era.

padawans in the HR have taken on and defeated an army of 500 while people like Ezra have consistently been pushed back into defence by much smaller squads of stormtroopers .

and while i wouldnt use this seriously im going to bring it up because its funny but in the behind the scenes look for The Clone Wars, Dave Filoni outright confirms Dooku would have lost against the small group of pirates because of their numbers, hence why he surrenders and lets himself get captured.