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Midway Mortal Kombat's Profiles are Mid (MK Revisions)
- Thread starter Rex_Eckles
- Start date
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- mortal kombat
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- Thread starter
- #42
Everyone (except for Shang Tsung) has Armageddon keys where they're rated as 7-C.
Most of them are just nebulously scaled to the MK1 Test Your Might feat (9-A), except Shang Tsung who is straight up rated as 7-C.
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- #44
Maybe.
Thoughts on my point about Quan-Chi? He really messes up the current scaling chain.
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What are QC's list of in-lore defeats? Just the elder Subzero?
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- #46
To quote me from a month ago (in the OP):
"But the problem comes with Quan Chi, who defeated Shang Tsung in Deception's intro. Now you might think "Okay, so Quan Chi's 7-C now, so what?" The problem is that Quan Chi has no lore stating he got stronger since his prior appearances, all we know is that he learned how to travel the realms using hidden passageways with Shinnok's ammulet. This becomes a big problem with the scaling because the elder Sub-Zero defeated Quan Chi in MK Mythologies: Sub-Zero, who Sareena and Scorpion both fought (Scoprion was the whole reason Quan Chi was running in the Deadly Alliance intro), and the younger Sub-Zero embarked to complete his brother's mission (implying relativity), and so one and so forth until everyone scales to Shang Tsung to some degree prior to Armageddon." - Me a month ago
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In Summary:
In MK Mythologies, Elder Subzero defeated Scorpion (Alive and Undead), Kia, Jataaka, Sereena, Quan Chi. (I assume in order of increasing strength)
By MK 1, Scorpion grew strong enough to now defeat Elder Subzero.
In MK2?, Young Subzero desires to kill Shang Sung. Unsure if he would have succeeded.
By Deadly Alliance, Scorpion is hunting and a threat to Quan Chi.
By Deception, Quan Chi defeats Shang Tsung.
Scaling:
Since we are shown that MKM Scorpion has grown stronger by MK1, it's reasonable that other characters have gotten "stronger" over time too.
We could say that DA Quan Chi is likely stronger than his MKM self.
I would remove Younger Subzero scaling to Shang Tsung by just his quest objective.
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- #48
It was stated in Deadly Alliance that Scorpion grows stronger while in the Netherrealm, not sure if that was in Mythologies too.
Also, Scorpion attacked and overpowered Quan Chi back in Mortal Kombat 4. The younger Sub-Zero fought Scorpion in MK4, albeit lost. But in his defense, he likely didn’t want to kill Scorpion because Scorpion was attacking him due to Quan Chi’s manipulations, Sub-Zero held no ill will towards Scorpion.
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- #49
MK2 also elaborates that the Lin Kuei sent Sub-Zero in response to learning that his elder brother failed, so they clearly didn't think the elder Sub-Zero is significantly superior to his brother.
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- In MK Mythologies, Elder Subzero defeated Scorpion (Alive and Undead), Kia, Jataaka, Sereena, Quan Chi. (I assume in order of increasing strength)
- By MK1, Scorpion grew strong enough to now defeat Elder Subzero.
- In MK2, Young Subzero is tasked to kill Shang Sung. Unsure if he would have succeeded.
- In MK4, Scorpion attacked and overpowered Quan Chi
- By Deadly Alliance, Scorpion is hunting and a threat to Quan Chi.
- By Deception, Quan Chi defeats Shang Tsung.
- At least 9-A, possibly higher
- MKM Scorpion (Alive and Undead) < MKM Kia < MKM Jataaka < MKM Sereena < MKM Quan Chi < MKM Elder Subzero
- At least 9-A, likely higher
- MKM Elder Subzero ≤ MK2 Young Subzero ≤ MK1 Elder Subzero < MK1 Scorpion
- At least 9-A, likely far higher
- MK1 Scorpion ≤ MK4 Scorpion
- MK4 Quan Chi < MK4 Scorpion
- MK4 Young Subzero ≤ MK4 Scorpion
- DA Quan Chi ≤ DA Scorpion
- DA Quan Chi = (Likely) DA Shang Tsung
- MK1 Scorpion ≤ MK4 Scorpion
- At least Low 7-C, possibly higher
- D Raiden Blast
- D Shang Tsung < D Quan Chi < (Likely) D Scorpion
- DA Quan Chi ≤ (Likely) D Quan Chi
- Sealed Blaze = 7-C
- Likely/Solid 7-C
- AGD Shang Tsung
- AGD Quan Chi
- AGD Scorpion
- Likely/Solid 7-C
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- Thread starter
- #51
That’s probably why they’re just used as supporting feats.
Also, there’s literally no difference between Deception and Deadly Alliance Quan Chi, Deception takes place seconds after Deadly Alliance, some parts of the story took place during Deadly Alliance.
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- #53
The original trilogy have unknown, but insignificant timeskips.
MK1 -> MK2: Enough time has passed for the Lin Kuei to recieve word about Sub-Zero's death and send his brother, King Gorbak to hear about Goro's apparent death and send Kintarro, Shao Kahn to set up a new tournament for Outworld, Baraka and his army to raid the Wishi AcademyJax to hear about Sonya's kidnapping, and Johnny Cage to be filming a commercial.
But not too much time has to have passed because Lui Kang only recently arrives at the Wushi Academy ruins who, for all we know, went straight from Shang Tsung's island to the academy.
MK2 -> MK3: It's not clear exactly when Kahn began his preparations for the Earth's invasion, whether is began during or after MK2. But enough time has passed for him to mobilize his army to invade.
I doubt more than a month passed between games, especially not between MK1 and MK2.
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Scaling Chain Draft So Far:
- At least 9-A, possibly higher
- MKM Scorpion (Alive and Undead) < MKM Kia < MKM Jataaka < MKM Sereena < MKM Quan Chi < MKM Elder Subzero
- At least 9-A, likely higher
- MKM Elder Subzero ≤ MK2 Young Subzero ≤ MK1 Elder Subzero < MK1 Scorpion
- At least 9-A, likely far higher
- MK1 Scorpion ≤ MK4 Scorpion
- MK4 Quan Chi < MK4 Scorpion
- MK4 Young Subzero ≤ MK4 Scorpion
- DA/D Raiden = DA/D Shang Tsung ≤ DA/D Quan Chi ≤ DA/D Scorpion
- MK1 Scorpion ≤ MK4 Scorpion
- DA/D Raiden + DA/D Shang Tsung + DA/D Quan Chi < DA/D Raiden Sacrifice Blast = At least Low 7-C, possibly higher < Onaga
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- Thread starter
- #55
That makes more sense. I'd rate Da/D Raiden above Tsung and Quan Chi as they teamed up against Raiden, Raiden was doing very well against them individually, and Shujinko states that Raiden wasn't enough to defeat the Deadly Alliance, implying that it's their teamwork that overcame Raiden.
Also, I think it should be considered that Scorpion's grow might only apply to him while in the Netherrealm, given his Deadly Alliance bio.
See the sandbox for the younger Sub-Zero power growth between MK4 and Deception and Shang Tsung's power growth between MK1 to MK3.
Also, given Shang Tsung's Armageddon lore I mentioned in the OP, at worst the DA/D Shang Tsung will be upscaling Blaze's 7-C, to quote me:
"Look at this excerpt from Shang Tsung's Armageddon profile:
'He had need of me. But I required a host body in which my soul could reside. At the flesh pits, he forged for me a new body. It was weak and grotesque to behold, but it functioned well enough. I craved mortal souls to heal and fortify my new flesh. I found more than enough at a place all too familiar to me: the village where Li Mei was born. I consumed each peasant's life force as Shao Kahn and Goro slew them one by one. I was renewed!'
Tsung was resurrected into a weakened body that he needed to fortify with souls, and only consumed the population of a village to regain his strength, a far cry from the hundreds of years he spent absorbing both during his tenure hosting the Mortal Kombat Tournament and the decade between the arcade trilogy and Deadly Alliance where he continuously absorbed souls to retain his youth." - me
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How should we interpret the opening line of Armageddon?
Is it also possible that DA/A Shang Tsung ≤ AMG Shang Tsung?
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- Thread starter
- #57
To quote myself in the OP:
"I would like to clarify that the statement regarding Armageddon and the large amount "super powered warriors" can still be true without making separate keys for each character appearing in Armageddon. Argus created the challenge for Taven and Daegon long before a majority of the Armageddon cast was even born, so it's possible that the characters can still scale to Armageddon Shang Tsung prior to Armageddon because not as many fighters were alive or active at a given time." - Me
Additionally, as established before, it wouldn't make any sense for Tsung to be more powerful in Armageddon because of his weaker body and that Deadly Alliance's Soulnado provided him with the limitless soles of the heavens to retain his youth and power (that was his end of the deal he struck with Quan Chi).
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I see. So something like this?
Scaling Chain Draft So Far:
- At least 9-A, possibly higher
- MKM Scorpion (Alive and Undead) < MKM Kia < MKM Jataaka < MKM Sereena < MKM Quan Chi < MKM Elder Subzero
- At least 9-A, likely higher
- MKM Elder Subzero ≤ MK2 Young Subzero ≤ MK1 Elder Subzero < MK1 Scorpion
- MK1 Shang Tsung
- At least 9-A, likely far higher
- MK1 Scorpion ≤ MK4 Scorpion
- MK4 Quan Chi ≤ MK4 Scorpion
- MK4 Young Subzero ≤ MK4 Scorpion
- MK1 Scorpion ≤ MK4 Scorpion
- At least 7-C, possibly higher
- AMG Shang Tsung ≤ Sealed Blaze
- At least 7-C, likely higher
- AMG Shang Tsung < DA/D Shang Tsung
- MK2 Shang Tsung < MK3 Shang Tsung < DA/D Shang Tsung ≤ DA/D Quan Chi ≤ DA/D Scorpion
- DA/D Raiden ≤ DA/D Shang Tsung + DA/D Quan Chi
- Sektor ≤ DA Young Subzero < DA/D Grand Master Young Subzero
- Hotaru ≤ DA/D Grand Master Young Subzero ≤ DA/D Scorpion
- At least 7-C, likely far higher
- DA/D Raiden + DA/D Shang Tsung + DA/D Quan Chi < DA/D Raiden Sacrifice Blast
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- #60
That looks pretty good. Thanks for your patience with this ever-expanding scaling chain.
There are some things regarding Goro to add that would affect the lower tiers and some things about Shao Kahn that would affect the super high-tiers (mainly Lui Kang because he's the GOAT), I mentioned them in the OP:
1) The Great Kung Lao defeat a young Shang Tsung, who was absorbing souls of his victims back then, Goro defeated him with his overwhelming speed and strength, although it's mentioned the Great Kung Lao still fought long against him, and Johnny Cage, Sonya, and Kano could keep up with Goro in a fight to the death, Johnny claiming they had the Shokan on the ropes. It's this feat stuff that made me consider Option 2 for Proposal 1, everyone scaling to Armageddon Shang Tsung.
2) to quote me:
"
Shao Kahn: At least 7-C, likely far higher (His power had depleted since MK3, yet Quan Chi still needed Tsung's help to defeat him)
- Liu Kang scales for defeating Kahn in MK2, both would be even higher during MK3 (Kahn for absorbing all the souls on Earth and Liu Kang being rage-amped by the apparent death of Kung Lao to defeat him)
- The Elder Gods scale since Kahn feared their wrath, Shinnok might scale here for being a fallen Elder God and being compared to Kahn by Quan Chi, and Onaga would scale in his original body due to requiring Kahn to poison him to be defeated
They don't technically have profiles yet, but it's still important to iron out for later.
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- #61
Can I mark you as agree for any specific proposal?
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Yes, you can mark me as agree on for the MHS speed and on the minor proposals too.
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I think it makes perfect sense for Quan Chi to be weaker prior to Armageddon given Armageddon's lore of the fighters growing stronger. I'm sure that didn't happen from 1 day to the next, but do we know how much time happened from the game before Armageddon to Armageddon itself? That's quite the window for Quan Chi to grow stronger.
Also, more than just the intro of Armageddon stated that power growth, there was at least another statement about it. Can't remember where tho, but maybe we should find it and use it before editing profiles, if possible.
Also, more than just the intro of Armageddon stated that power growth, there was at least another statement about it. Can't remember where tho, but maybe we should find it and use it before editing profiles, if possible.
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- #64
I was referring to the time between MK4 and Deadly Alliance for Quan Chi not getting stronger, where he was running from Scorpion. I'm arguing there's nothing definitive that suggests Deadly Alliance Quan Chi is stronger than MK4 Quan Chi, the most we get is that he learned about secret portals between the realms.
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My bad there, got the titles mixed up there.
In my opinion, it still makes the most sense for Quan Chi to grow stronger; There is a time frame where it could have happened, even if we don't know how it happened. We know the upper scaling is not just something anyone has. And again because of Armageddon, we know ages of kombat have been vaguely making everyone stronger over time in unclear ways.
In my opinion, it still makes the most sense for Quan Chi to grow stronger; There is a time frame where it could have happened, even if we don't know how it happened. We know the upper scaling is not just something anyone has. And again because of Armageddon, we know ages of kombat have been vaguely making everyone stronger over time in unclear ways.
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- #66
I see. What are your thoughts on the Armageddon Shang Tsung scaling?
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Is excellent. 1 issue, I don't see how he goes from "At least Small Building level" to "At least Small Building level, likely far higher" via gaining more power than ever, that would just be a higher level of "At least Small Building level", no?
Also, I would change the wording here and there:
Also, I would change the wording here and there:
- From: "Scaling to the strongest Test Your Might feat of shattering a diamond block"
- To: "Portrayed as capable of performing strongest Test Your Might feat of shattering a diamond block"
- From: "Scaling to Blaze who can displace storm clouds that he formed when the Pyramid of Argus that he was on burst from the earth, since Argus anticipated a plan that would make use of the kombatants' growing power, plus , meaning he scales to Blaze"
- To: "According to Argus, the foreseen day in which kombatants would grow too powerful has come to pass. And like moths to flame, they[24] [video_of_the_intro all tried to conquer the Pyramid of Argus],<note>The actions of the kombatants in the intro are not canon, if they are representative of the events in-game and the dynamics between each other.<note> which would require them to defeat Blaze at the end; Being honest and pragmatic, Blaze believed that he could be defeated by any one of the kombatants,[25] Blaze himself being able to displace storm clouds he formed while on the Pyramid of Argus, as it burst from the earth"
- From "Quan Chi, scaling to the latter's feat of reacting to Raiden's lightning by erecting a wall of skulls to block it"
- To: "Quan Chi, who reacted to Raiden's lightning by erecting a wall of skulls to block it. In-gameplay, those who canonically fight Raiden can also dodge and block his lightning"
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And 1 more thing, is that first Shang Tsung quote from the first ever MK comic? That should be super non-canon, at the very least the Shang Tsung and Raiden part of it, since Raiden is like a wild god who knows nothing of the mortal world and gets pride-baited by Shang into participating on the tournament.
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- #69
That was already on his profile, I didn't care enough to change it. I'll get to it later.
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- #70
I thought some verbage to indicate further power growth was appropriate. Maybe just higher instead of far higher would be better?
Also, do you think it'd be logical to consider a young Shang Tsung (pre-MK1) superior to Armageddon Shang Tsung? My logic is A) his original body wouldn't have been "weak and grotesque" back in his youth and B) He was already absorbing souls back when he was the Mortal Kombat Champion and likely accumulated more souls over 500 years than one village in Outworld.
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Everyone uses profiles like that but I don't like it, since it has nothing to do with the numbers of the tier of the character, just power next to prior power. I would just leave it as it was before, and let the text saying that he grew stronger do all the work.
Armageddon was crazy, letting weak characters rise to the Town level, and Town level characters stay Town level. Pre-MK 1 Shao should be on the same level as Goro at the time, no? Shao lost to the Great Kung Lao, and Goro beat the Great Kung Lao, respecting the man. Plus, he was likely absorbing even more souls than ever when they cursed his aging, at which point the amount of souls he got pre-MK 1 didn't matter much.
Armageddon was crazy, letting weak characters rise to the Town level, and Town level characters stay Town level. Pre-MK 1 Shao should be on the same level as Goro at the time, no? Shao lost to the Great Kung Lao, and Goro beat the Great Kung Lao, respecting the man. Plus, he was likely absorbing even more souls than ever when they cursed his aging, at which point the amount of souls he got pre-MK 1 didn't matter much.
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- #72
I assume by "Shao" you mean Shang Tsung, and we know that he got cursed to use souls to prevent his aging long before MK1 or when he met Goro (it was probably why he participated in the first place, to be honest). And upon his death in Deception's intro, we know he lost the souls he absorbed in the centuries prior because Liu Kang's soul got released, so I'm pretty sure he's consumed less souls by the time of Armageddon than even his young self by the time he lost to the Great Kung Lao.
Remember that it's normal for a Mortal Kombat tournament to have so many combatants that dozens of ships each carrying ten or more people at least are required to get all of them to Tsung's island.
Edit: My main question is that do you think Young Pre-MK1 Tsung is superior to Armageddon Tsung. If yes, that greatly impacts who scales to 7-C.
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Yes.
Great Kung Lao beats him in that image. There is also the matter of how strong those souls were; Maybe they were all peak human level?
That's the MK 1 comic, which I argued likely got retconned.
If he was, Goro would be. And 7-C comes from the full power, full godly essence of Raiden self-destroying in such a way that would have annihilated Tsung and Quan Chi - if the blast had reached them both.
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- #74
Maybe, but the same could be said for the village of people Tsung absorbed in Amrageddon.
Only Raiden's personality and Shang Tsung's role in the story. You can even unlock the MK1 comic in Deadly Alliance's Krypt.
Actually no, the 7-C comes from Blaze's feat in the Armageddon intro, which Armageddon Tsung scales to.
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- #76
Option 1 for you then? Before you commit, I urge you to read my previous comments if you haven't already.
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Nice catch. Okey then.
Correct, I keep getting stuff wrong here. That said, I still disagree with Pre-MK1 Tsung being superior to Armageddon Tsung.
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- #78
Very well then, I take it you're leaning towards Option 1?
I'll add in an updated scaling chain that Firestorm808 and I were ironing out earlier to Option 1 (later).
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So something like this?
Scaling Chain Draft So Far:
- At least 9-A, possibly higher
- MKM Scorpion (Alive and Undead) < MKM Kia < MKM Jataaka < MKM Sereena < MKM Quan Chi < MKM Elder Subzero
- Johnny Cage = Sonya = Kano
- Young Shang Tsung ≤ Great Kung Lao ≤ Young Goro
- At least 9-A, likely higher
- MKM Elder Subzero ≤ MK2 Young Subzero ≤ MK1 Elder Subzero < MK1 Scorpion
- Young Shang Tsung ≤ Great Kung Lao ≤ Young Goro < MK1 Goro < MK1 Shang Tsung < MK2 Shao Kahn < MK2 Liu Kang
- Johnny Cage = Sonya = Kano ≤ MK1 Goro
- At least 9-A, likely far higher or At least 9-A, at most 7-C
- MK1 Scorpion ≤ MK4 Scorpion
- MK4 Quan Chi ≤ MK4 Scorpion
- MK4 Young Subzero ≤ MK4 Scorpion
- MK1 Scorpion ≤ MK4 Scorpion
- At least 7-C, possibly higher
- AMG Shang Tsung ≤ Sealed Blaze
- At least 7-C, likely higher
- AMG Shang Tsung < DA/D Shang Tsung
- MK2 Shang Tsung < MK3 Shang Tsung < DA/D Shang Tsung ≤ DA/D Quan Chi ≤ DA/D Scorpion
- Post MK3 Shao Kahn = DA/D Raiden ≤ DA/D Shang Tsung + DA/D Quan Chi
- Sektor ≤ DA Young Subzero < DA/D Grand Master Young Subzero
- Hotaru ≤ DA/D Grand Master Young Subzero ≤ DA/D Scorpion
- At least 7-C, likely far higher
- DA/D Raiden + DA/D Shang Tsung + DA/D Quan Chi < DA/D Raiden Sacrifice Blast
- At least 7-C, likely even higher
- MK3 Shao Kahn w/ Souls ≤ MK3 Lui Kang w/ Rage
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- #80
Mostly perfect, let me just adjust a few things:
1) Given how the Mortal Kombat champion is immortal and doesn't age, Goro shouldn't be significantly different between the Great Kung Lao fight and MK1
2) MK2 Shao Kahn would be superior to his Deadly Alliance clone, so he and MK2 Liu Kang would upscale 7-C
3) We don't know if Old Shang Tsung is superior to Goro, we just know he challenged Liu Kang despite him defeating Goro
So this should be the finalized scaling chain:
- 9-A
- MKM Scorpion (Alive and Undead) < MKM Kia < MKM Jataaka < MKM Sereena < MKM Quan Chi < MKM Elder Subzero
- Johnny Cage = Sonya = Kano
- At least 9-A
- Johnny Cage, Sonya and Kano ≤ Goro
- Young Shang Tsung ≤ Great Kung Lao ≤ Goro > Old Shang Tsung
- MKM Elder Subzero ≤ MK2 Young Subzero ≤ MK1 Elder Subzero < MK1 Scorpion
- Young Shang Tsung ≤ Great Kung Lao≤ Goro > Old Shang Tsung < MK2 Shang Tsung < MK3 Shang Tsung
- MK1 Scorpion ≤ MK4 Scorpion
- MK4 Quan Chi ≤ MK4 Scorpion
- MK4 Young Subzero ≤ MK4 Scorpion
- Sektor ≤ DA Young Subzero < DA/D Grand Master Young Subzero
- Hotaru ≤ DA/D Grand Master Young Subzero
- 7-C
- AMG Shang Tsung ≤ Sealed Blaze
- At least 7-C
- AMG Shang Tsung < DA/D Shang Tsung
- DA/D Shang Tsung ≤ DA/D Quan Chi ≤ DA/D Scorpion < Moloch and Dhramin
- DA/D Scorpion < Shujinko < Shujinko w/ Power Mimicry
- Post MK3 Shao Kahn and DA/D Raiden ≤ DA/D Shang Tsung + DA/D Quan Chi
- At least 7-C, likely far higher
- DA/D Raiden + DA/D Shang Tsung + DA/D Quan Chi < DA/D Raiden Sacrifice Blast
- Post MK3 Shao Kahn < MK2 Shao Kahn < MK2 Liu Kang
- At least 7-C, likely even higher
- MK3 Shao Kahn w/ Souls ≤ MK3 Lui Kang w/ Rage
- Status
