JJK: Relativistic Speed CRT

[Bimbitesthedust]

The feats
Main

• Hakari was able to react to lightning.
• Sukuna was able to react to an Electromagnetic Wave and hit it with a dismantle.
• MBA Kashimo dodged the dismantle mentioned above (Note that while this may be an aim dodge, the calc already accounts for this).

Supportive

• A very weakened Sukuna was able to transform before being killed by the lightning Kashimo fired at him.
• MBA Kashimo was able to blitz the Sukuna who reacted to lightning.
• Gojo states that he'd be able to land Black Flash (Which requires a 0.000001 s timing) at will if it wasn’t luck based. While this may be a timing thing, in order to hit it consistently one shouldn’t be too far off from that perception speed.

The scaling
High Tiers scaling

• Jackpot Hakari and relative should scale to MHS+ (Mach 1304.85) in reaction speed due to him dodging lightning.
• Since this is only reaction speed, the Mach 3 statement isn’t an inconsistency. While they may be slower than Curse Naoya in movement speed, Toji was stated to be able to deal with everything at Naoya's speed and Maki avoided all of Naoya's attacks.

High High Tiers scaling

• 15 f Sukuna, Teen Awakened Gojo and relative scale to MHS+ in combat speed due to blitzing Ryu and Toji respectively. Which are high tiers.

God Tiers scaling

• 20 f Sukuna and relative should have MHS+ combat speeds and also have Relativistic (0.13 c) reaction speeds due to Sukuna reacting to an Electromagnetic Wave.
• 20f Sukuna should also have FTL (1.23 c) attack speed with dismantle.
• MBA Kashimo should have Relativistic (0.11 c) reaction speed due to dodging Sukuna's dismantle and MHS+ combat speed due to blitzing weakened Sukuna, who was comparable to Kashimo's base form speed wise (Base Kashimo is a high tier).

Alright Now im gonna give my Opinions
The feats
Main

• Hakari was able to react to lightning.
• Sukuna was able to react to an Electromagnetic Wave and hit it with a dismantle.
• MBA Kashimo dodged the dismantle mentioned above (Note that while this may be an aim dodge, the calc already accounts for this).

I dont think the Hakari feat suffers from something like the evading punches rule (look at Life of Kings comment for it), a more accurate scenario where this rule applies is when Kamo blocks Naoya and survives a tackle from the guy. However there were other issues that were around for Hakari which were as follows

1) it was way above the Black Flash Limit of around Mach 2938.670 and previous versions had Hakari dodging lightning calced at around Mach 4000+ which would just mean that Hakari shouldve been more likely to land Black Flashes like Crazy since he has the speed to do it (This current version alongside the one from sun is around Mach 1300 to 1800 which is below)

2) It is considered an entire outlier before and can be seen as one now. Now I think there is some potential case for MHS Hakari and MHS JJK to be possible but it is a difficult hill to climb

Overall I think I can agree with Hakari dodging Lightning but its very steep and difficult to argue for given many things in JJK

Sukuna w the EM stuff is really annoying since he doesnt take shit seriously in some instances but like Rel Sukuna and Gojo could happen but idk, Attack speed could be rel but Kashimo in no way scales since it could be aim dodged by sukuna telling him to dodge and stuff like that

• A very weakened Sukuna was able to transform before being killed by the lightning Kashimo fired at him.
• MBA Kashimo was able to blitz the Sukuna who reacted to lightning.
• Gojo states that he'd be able to land Black Flash (Which requires a 0.000001 s timing) at will if it wasn’t luck based. While this may be a timing thing, in order to hit it consistently one shouldn’t be too far off from that perception speed.

I can agree to Sukuna having the perception and reaction to Kashimos attack before pulling off the transformation and Gojo's statement. I dont think Kashimo would scale equal to Sukuna but an atmost could work ig

The scaling
High Tiers scaling

• Jackpot Hakari and relative should scale to MHS+ (Mach 1304.85) in reaction speed due to him dodging lightning.
• Since this is only reaction speed, the Mach 3 statement isn’t an inconsistency. While they may be slower than Curse Naoya in movement speed, Toji was stated to be able to deal with everything at Naoya's speed and Maki avoided all of Naoya's attacks.

High High Tiers scaling

• 15 f Sukuna, Teen Awakened Gojo and relative scale to MHS+ in combat speed due to blitzing Ryu and Toji respectively. Which are high tiers.

God Tiers scaling

• 20 f Sukuna and relative should have MHS+ combat speeds and also have Relativistic (0.13 c) reaction speeds due to Sukuna reacting to an Electromagnetic Wave.
• 20f Sukuna should also have FTL (1.23 c) attack speed with dismantle.
• MBA Kashimo should have Relativistic (0.11 c) reaction speed due to dodging Sukuna's dismantle and MHS+ combat speed due to blitzing weakened Sukuna, who was comparable to Kashimo's base form speed wise (Base Kashimo is a high tier).

Scaling wise, its weird

I can see the high tier scaling and agree with it somewhat, though wouldnt it transfer to combat? but eh reaction could work since mach 3 is a thing

15f and Teen awakened Gojo scaling I can see aswell, agree if the high tiers get that scaling

God tiers, I think my main problems are the Dismantle speed and MBA Kashimos placement, he should be around the high high tiers of scaling rather than God tiers with a possible rating for being higher. Sukuna was mostly toying with Kashimo or was struggling but being able to react when he was at 1% HP and crippled so Idk it doesnt seem as impressive to put MBA kashimo on the same tiers as Gojo and Sukuna at FP

Overall this is my stance but I am not too confident atm as I am focusing on other verses and its surprising to see this kind of thread.

 

[Arkenis]

Ce amount doesn’t affect his output,

Didn't say that. It's an example of how weak he's become is all

 

[Sammy818]

Alright Now im gonna give my Opinions
The feats
Main

• Hakari was able to react to lightning.
• Sukuna was able to react to an Electromagnetic Wave and hit it with a dismantle.
• MBA Kashimo dodged the dismantle mentioned above (Note that while this may be an aim dodge, the calc already accounts for this).

I dont think the Hakari feat suffers from something like the evading punches rule (look at Life of Kings comment for it), a more accurate scenario where this rule applies is when Kamo blocks Naoya and survives a tackle from the guy. However there were other issues that were around for Hakari which were as follows

1) it was way above the Black Flash Limit of around Mach 2938.670 and previous versions had Hakari dodging lightning calced at around Mach 4000+ which would just mean that Hakari shouldve been more likely to land Black Flashes like Crazy since he has the speed to do it (This current version alongside the one from sun is around Mach 1300 to 1800 which is below)

2) It is considered an entire outlier before and can be seen as one now. Now I think there is some potential case for MHS Hakari and MHS JJK to be possible but it is a difficult hill to climb

Overall I think I can agree with Hakari dodging Lightning but its very steep and difficult to argue for given many things in JJK

Sukuna w the EM stuff is really annoying since he doesnt take shit seriously in some instances but like Rel Sukuna and Gojo could happen but idk, Attack speed could be rel but Kashimo in no way scales since it could be aim dodged by sukuna telling him to dodge and stuff like that

• A very weakened Sukuna was able to transform before being killed by the lightning Kashimo fired at him.
• MBA Kashimo was able to blitz the Sukuna who reacted to lightning.
• Gojo states that he'd be able to land Black Flash (Which requires a 0.000001 s timing) at will if it wasn’t luck based. While this may be a timing thing, in order to hit it consistently one shouldn’t be too far off from that perception speed.

I can agree to Sukuna having the perception and reaction to Kashimos attack before pulling off the transformation and Gojo's statement. I dont think Kashimo would scale equal to Sukuna but an atmost could work ig

The scaling
High Tiers scaling

• Jackpot Hakari and relative should scale to MHS+ (Mach 1304.85) in reaction speed due to him dodging lightning.
• Since this is only reaction speed, the Mach 3 statement isn’t an inconsistency. While they may be slower than Curse Naoya in movement speed, Toji was stated to be able to deal with everything at Naoya's speed and Maki avoided all of Naoya's attacks.

High High Tiers scaling

• 15 f Sukuna, Teen Awakened Gojo and relative scale to MHS+ in combat speed due to blitzing Ryu and Toji respectively. Which are high tiers.

God Tiers scaling

• 20 f Sukuna and relative should have MHS+ combat speeds and also have Relativistic (0.13 c) reaction speeds due to Sukuna reacting to an Electromagnetic Wave.
• 20f Sukuna should also have FTL (1.23 c) attack speed with dismantle.
• MBA Kashimo should have Relativistic (0.11 c) reaction speed due to dodging Sukuna's dismantle and MHS+ combat speed due to blitzing weakened Sukuna, who was comparable to Kashimo's base form speed wise (Base Kashimo is a high tier).

Scaling wise, its weird

I can see the high tier scaling and agree with it somewhat, though wouldnt it transfer to combat? but eh reaction could work since mach 3 is a thing

15f and Teen awakened Gojo scaling I can see aswell, agree if the high tiers get that scaling

God tiers, I think my main problems are the Dismantle speed and MBA Kashimos placement, he should be around the high high tiers of scaling rather than God tiers with a possible rating for being higher. Sukuna was mostly toying with Kashimo or was struggling but being able to react when he was at 1% HP and crippled so Idk it doesnt seem as impressive to put MBA kashimo on the same tiers as Gojo and Sukuna at FP

Overall this is my stance but I am not too confident atm as I am focusing on other verses and its surprising to see this kind of thread.

Counterpoint, let’s just place Kashimo in god tier speed(I SWEAR lying, I’m not thinking about agenda at all)

 

[LIFE_OF_KING]

Counterpoint, let’s just place Kashimo in god tier speed(I SWEAR lying, I’m not thinking about agenda at all)

Sammy, can you stop to say random things that aren't relevant? This will make the thread get more pages, making mods care less for this thread. Try to make as few comments as possible.

 

[Sammy818]

Sammy, can you stop to say random things that aren't relevant? This will make the thread get more pages, making mods care less for this thread. Try to make as few comments as possible.

Fine, anyway this thread is doomed until we get the high tiers into high reactions speeds. This thread was tryna swing for a home run, but it’s like a middle schooler going against Paul skenes. Or at least wait to see if THAT statement is retconned in the anime

 

[Sammy818]

Like we gotta stop tryna bump sukujo, or at least bump something to get accepted first(MHS+ perceptions for example)

 

[Brainrotted_powerscaler]

I agree with approving what the CRT is trying to approve. There are these quantities of feats already, and they can be backed up by the more consistent narrative.

The Mach 3 and subsonic statements are to be compared with the feats, like how it's said here:

If the statement conflicts with the story or feats of the character?

The feats you've listened to surpass the statements and are consistent with several other events in the story.

 

[Buraqibear]

Madlad actually did it. This is never passing

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

Sun is online so I'm 89% sure that he is writting some bullshit in a discord server but

At this point we need some discussion rule about this feat. This feat was argued countless times and it's always the same cycle of arguments. The main thing is, do you plan to scale it to Uraume? Since you know, Uraume could barely react to Piercing Blood, calling it FAST, but could also fight Hakari and counter attack him for almost 50 chapters, with no proof of speedblitz. Their difference would be over 200 times, 200 TIMES. That's more than the difference between a car and a turtle.
You cannot just put the value and not explain the scaling in-deep

Also:

This is another problem. Mach 1304, despiste the lightning being Mach 1282. Why are we scaling Hakari BARELY dodging the lightning, above the lightning? In fact, we have a funny calc rule for these kind of stuff, and it was the reason of why this calc was rejected years ago

From our calc page:


I don't understand why are we assuming that Dismantle had to move that fast? Why the EMWS couldn't have moved further? The world split dismantle would have nulled it anyway and blocked it's path, even if it was moving at transonic speed it would still stop it due to how much thicker is in comparasion to the EMWS. This is just a reaction speed for SUKUNA

The same Dismantle that Sukuna warned Kashimo before he fired it, aka aim dodge?

Sukuna does hold back a lot, you know that. His cursed energy does have it's own mechanic where it will weave depending on his motivation and interest, with Uraume saying that he didn't took any battle until Maki seriously, and only went full berserk after his philosophy was in challenge with Maki's existance as a full heavenly restricted, with Sukuna blitzing her completly.

There's no proof of Sukuna using his full power against Kashimo

While I agree with some of the things you mentioned, I have to disagree with the Uraume vs Hakari part.

I think people, including the OP, are ignoring the fact that JP Hakari dodged that lightning when the Jackpot was about to end. It should be noted that Hakari, once he enters the JP, is stated to get faster over time, and his speed completely overwhelmed Kashimo by the end of Chapter 188, before Kashimo pierced Hakari’s stomach when the JP ended. So I don’t think anyone should be scaling to that lightning-dodge feat.

Also, JP Hakari was easily reacting, and his movement was obviously faster than Uraume’s. She only hit him when he was mid-air.

I’m not supporting the OP—I don’t like what he brought up—but scaling Uraume’s speed to Hakari’s is completely
wrong.

 

[Rogue_Forge]

I agree, and also just wanted to say one thing

Some people have said that "Author statements take priority over calcs" which is probably true for something like this

However it is also a direct author statement that Kashimo's electricity either is a bolt of lightning or "like a bolt of lightning" and also would qualify for lighting speed under our guidelines for lightning attacks being eligible for lighting speed

 

[Brainrotted_powerscaler]

While I agree with some of the things you mentioned, I have to disagree with the Uraume vs Hakari part.

I think people, including the OP, are ignoring the fact that JP Hakari dodged that lightning when the Jackpot was about to end. It should be noted that Hakari, once he enters the JP, is stated to get faster over time, and his speed completely overwhelmed Kashimo by the end of Chapter 188, before Kashimo pierced Hakari’s stomach when the JP ended. So I don’t think anyone should be scaling to that lightning-dodge feat.

Also, JP Hakari was easily reacting, and his movement was obviously faster than Uraume’s. She only hit him when he was mid-air.

I’m not supporting the OP—I don’t like what he brought up—but scaling Uraume’s speed to Hakari’s is completely
wrong.

I don't agree that no one should scale to JP Hakari's feat, as the god tiers would still upscale from that. Also, I wouldn't say that it was a complete overwhelm, as both Hakari and Kashimo went all-out for the fight, and him getting faster is because he decided to sacrifice his body/go without thinking about the consequences, which would obviously boost him due to CE being direct empowerment based on the user's emotions. He outright says that he can sacrifice his immortal body and cut loose, whereas he lacked the same conviction when he performed the lightning-dodging feat. Another example of this interpretation being more likely is Yuta becoming faster against Geto after his surge of emotions.

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

I don't agree that no one should scale to JP Hakari's feat, as the god tiers would still upscale from that. Also, I wouldn't say that it was a complete overwhelm, as both Hakari and Kashimo went all-out for the fight, and him getting faster is because he decided to sacrifice his body/go without thinking about the consequences, which would obviously boost him due to CE being direct empowerment based on the user's emotions. He outright says that he can sacrifice his immortal body and cut loose, whereas he lacked the same conviction when he performed the lightning-dodging feat. Another example of this interpretation being more likely is Yuta becoming faster against Geto after his surge of emotions.

Yuta case is completely different and Geto still reacts to it. Yuta didn't had control over his CE. That's all. Hakari vs Kashimo is a different matter to. He had gotten faster in the end. Not because conviction. He is a immortal when he entered JP in the beginning itself. If it's just because of immortality he should be able to main constant speed throughout JP state which is not the case.
Also stop ignoring what I said Lighting dodge happened in the end of JP state not in the beginning. Kashimo and Hakari were not throwing hands equally in the end. Kashimo got overwhelmed.
Arguably only Gojo and Sukuna scales above Hakari feat no one else.

Either way Uraume shouldn't scale.

 

[Brainrotted_powerscaler]

Yuta case is completely different and Geto still reacts to it. Yuta didn't had control over his CE. That's all. Hakari vs Kashimo is a different matter to. He had gotten faster in the end. Not because conviction. He is a immortal when he entered JP in the beginning itself. If it's just because of immortality he should be able to main constant speed throughout JP state which is not the case.
Also stop ignoring what I said Lighting dodge happened in the end of JP state not in the beginning. Kashimo and Hakari were not throwing hands equally in the end. Kashimo got overwhelmed.
Arguably only Gojo and Sukuna scales above Hakari feat no one else.

Either way Uraume shouldn't scale.

Not at all; it's made perfectly clear by the narrative that CE responds to the user's emotions. Also, Geto reacting to it doesn't mean that the argument is invalid, nor would better CE control allow a character to become stronger due to their emotions, as it's the nature of CE to be produced from negative emotions. Your rebuttal in this case lacks substance because you're trying to debunk a point made clear by the narrative with conclusions that don't correlate, because Yuta getting faster is due to his surge of emotions, the same as Hakari, or even when Yuji got mad at Sukuna and could perform way better while enraged.

I didn't say that Hakari being immortal led him to be faster; that's a blatant straw man. I just said that him deciding to sacrifice his immortal body and cutting loose IS the reason he got faster because that would amp him. Also, I never said whether or not it happened in the end of jackpot; I just added context that would go against your rebuttal.

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

Not at all; it's made perfectly clear by the narrative that CE responds to the user's emotions. Also, Geto reacting to it doesn't mean that the argument is invalid, nor would better CE control allow a character to become stronger due to their emotions, as it's the nature of CE to be produced from negative emotions. Your rebuttal in this case lacks substance because you're trying to debunk a point made clear by the narrative with conclusions that don't correlate, because Yuta getting faster is due to his surge of emotions, the same as Hakari,

Yuta didn't got faster because of surge of emotions he got faster because he started manipulating his CE better. Unless you think JP Hakari surge of emotions made him so faster than Kashimo couldn't keep up with him while Yuta's surge of emotions only amped his travel speed while combat speed is same as before where Geto and Yuta were. Your arguments doesn't stand here. Combat and travel speed are entirely different. Yuta's amps didn't Blitz Geto in combat speed. While Hakari speed did Blitz Kashimo.

or even when Yuji got mad at Sukuna and could perform way better while enraged.

Yuji has been growing and Sukuna's stuff was reduced. There is nothing indicates Yuji is slower than Sukuna and Yuji gotten faster all of sudden where Sukuna couldn't keep up with Yuji. Like I already mentioned Hakari Combat speed overwhelmed Kashimo while your examples of Yuta and Yuji didn't do the same Yuta's case is travel speed.

I didn't say that Hakari being immortal led him to be faster; that's a blatant straw man. I just said that him deciding to sacrifice his immortal body and cutting loose IS the reason he got faster because that would amp him. Also, I never said whether or not it happened in the end of jackpot; I just added context that would go against your rebuttal.

You are acting like he didn't had same conviction before is complete lie. Why don't you explain Hakari getting hit Kashimo swinging the metal doors. You think it's faster than Lighting attack itself? Why didn't he dodge that? Also hakari never mentioned anything about Sacrificing or conviction stuff when he dodged Lightning discharge. So your arguments are null. It has nothing to do with conviction. Yuji and Yuta in Shinjuku arguably has more conviction still we don't see them blitzing or getting faster in any scenes. Heck when 100% Yuta needed a sneak attack and Todos help to take down Kenjaku. Where was this your conviction arguments go? If you think just conviction can amp speed. Same Yuta was already pissed because of Gojo's death. I'm not buying this whole conviction giving a Blitz tier amp.

 

[TheGunsFinalWrath]

Uraume could barely react to Piercing Blood, calling it FAST,

Just like how Gojo can be one shotted by a regular holding back dismantle from 20F Sukuna if he had his durability lowered due to being off guarded, he'll call it "too strong!"
. No sorcerer is always using their CE reinforcement at 100%. Neither is Gojo. Uraume is the same because she considered a nerfed Choso as fodder. Surprise surprise, he has a technique that just so happens to excel in speed. And what's more, he got rage amped (Todo said you can use it to amp yourself so yes) at that time "muhh brother! Kamo Noritoshi die!".
Sorcerers also are not so stagnant either. Just like how we know that different sorcerers differ in the usage of piercing blood in power and speed based on the level of the sorcerer itself. Choso certainly too improved, as he underwent a life and death fight before, even though yes, he's weakened.
引っこめ三下
これ以上私を待たせるな
Uraume: “Back off, you underling.
Don’t make me wait any longer.”

三下 → “third-rate,” “low-ranker,” “underling,” “small fry”


Yeah. She views him as a genuine fodder. How are we acting like she's in full CE reinforcement or something lmao.
Though idk why we're acting like she's relative to it even at that moment or thinking it's too fast? She's able to react to it and put her hand up to defend her head despite being off guarded and what not. Can also think to herself and go "so this is PB". But even ignoring that, she's holding back extremely anyways.


But, my point is that nearly any JJK character can be overwhelmed, surprised or blitzed EVEN if they are IN reality stronger than their opponent, SO as long as they aren't using their reinforcement at full output or the necessary output to surpass X opponent. Uraume similarly got caught lacking especially against a speed based technique.

You would need MASSIVE proof for Uraume holding back to the point of thinking that a mach 2-3 piercing blood is fast while also moving at mach 1300. Uraume is no Saitama or wathever

Just like how Gojo can hold back extremely against Pre Gw YUJI whilst sparring with him lmao. It's not that crazy.

Idk if I'm losing my marbles but how do people think that's a regular dismantle? Kashimo points out its the world slasher. Maybe you didn't think it should be named appropriately here but if not, there's no reason regular dismantles should be FTL. The rest is really just whether we think it's narratively consistent for Sukuna, the fight for the most part demonstrates superiority, just don't think mhs+ superior.

There's barely any difference between world slash and regular dismantle. It's just like Kusakabe said. It just has its target technique expanded, allowing it to hit deeper than before, and a + is that it's strengthened. Basically higher output than normal. That's really it. Unless changing target techniques somehow alters speed — it doesn't. What matters is OUTPUT. Everything else is irrelevant.

 

[Buraqibear]

Just like how Gojo can be one shotted by a regular holding back dismantle from 20F Sukuna if he had his durability lowered due to being off guarded, he'll call it "too strong!"
. No sorcerer is always using their CE reinforcement at 100%. Neither is Gojo. Uraume is the same because she considered a nerfed Choso as fodder. Surprise surprise, he has a technique that just so happens to excel in speed. And what's more, he got rage amped (Todo said you can use it to amp yourself so yes) at that time "muhh brother! Kamo Noritoshi die!".
Sorcerers also are not so stagnant either. Just like how we know that different sorcerers differ in the usage of piercing blood in power and speed based on the level of the sorcerer itself. Choso certainly too improved, as he underwent a life and death fight before, even though yes, he's weakened.
引っこめ三下
これ以上私を待たせるな
Uraume: “Back off, you underling.
Don’t make me wait any longer.”

三下 → “third-rate,” “low-ranker,” “underling,” “small fry”


Yeah. She views him as a genuine fodder. How are we acting like she's in full CE reinforcement or something lmao.
Though idk why we're acting like she's relative to it even at that moment or thinking it's too fast? She's able to react to it and put her hand up to defend her head despite being off guarded and what not. Can also think to herself and go "so this is PB". But even ignoring that, she's holding back extremely anyways.


But, my point is that nearly any JJK character can be overwhelmed, surprised or blitzed EVEN if they are IN reality stronger than their opponent, SO as long as they aren't using their reinforcement at full output or the necessary output to surpass X opponent. Uraume similarly got caught lacking especially against a speed based technique.


Just like how Gojo can hold back extremely against Pre Gw YUJI whilst sparring with him lmao. It's not that crazy.

There's barely any difference between world slash and regular dismantle. It's just like Kusakabe said. It just has its target technique expanded, allowing it to hit deeper than before, and a + is that it's strengthened. Basically higher output than normal. That's really it. Unless changing target techniques somehow alters speed — it doesn't. What matters is OUTPUT. Everything else is irrelevant.

This guy cooked.

Anyways we should move one step at a time instead of just immediately reaching for rela, I had plans to make a couple CRT's for this typa thing

 

[Arkenis]

There's barely any difference between world slash and regular dismantle. It's just like Kusakabe said. It just has its target technique expanded, allowing it to hit deeper than before, and a + is that it's strengthened. Basically higher output than normal. That's really it. Unless changing target techniques somehow alters speed — it doesn't. What matters is OUTPUT. Everything else is irrelevant.

Why would higher output not increase speed.

 

[FroYoSans]

agreed. using "they didnt move around as much" as an argument is just.. wrong
you could downgrade so many verses with roughly the same line of reasoning

cough Pain Fight Naruto cough

 

[TheGunsFinalWrath]

Why would higher output not increase speed.

Um. Did I just not say output matters? It means output is what dictates its speed, whether it's normal dismantle or dismantle with expanded target technique. Their speed is dependent on output.

 

[Arkenis]

Um. Did I just not say output matters? It means output is what dictates its speed, whether it's normal dismantle or dismantle with expanded target technique. Their speed is dependent on output.

So you read the manga, you know world slash requires hand signs and chants, things which increase output. Why would the world slash not be faster than a regular dismantle, the ct which doesn't require hand sign and chants?

 

[Brainrotted_powerscaler]

Yuta didn't got faster because of surge of emotions he got faster because he started manipulating his CE better. Unless you think JP Hakari surge of emotions made him so faster than Kashimo couldn't keep up with him while Yuta's surge of emotions only amped his travel speed while combat speed is same as before where Geto and Yuta were. Your arguments doesn't stand here. Combat and travel speed are entirely different. Yuta's amps didn't Blitz Geto in combat speed. While Hakari speed did Blitz Kashimo.

Yuji has been growing and Sukuna's stuff was reduced. There is nothing indicates Yuji is slower than Sukuna and Yuji gotten faster all of sudden where Sukuna couldn't keep up with Yuji. Like I already mentioned Hakari Combat speed overwhelmed Kashimo while your examples of Yuta and Yuji didn't do the same Yuta's case is travel speed.

You are acting like he didn't had same conviction before is complete lie. Why don't you explain Hakari getting hit Kashimo swinging the metal doors. You think it's faster than Lighting attack itself? Why didn't he dodge that? Also hakari never mentioned anything about Sacrificing or conviction stuff when he dodged Lightning discharge. So your arguments are null. It has nothing to do with conviction. Yuji and Yuta in Shinjuku arguably has more conviction still we don't see them blitzing or getting faster in any scenes. Heck when 100% Yuta needed a sneak attack and Todos help to take down Kenjaku. Where was this your conviction arguments go? If you think just conviction can amp speed. Same Yuta was already pissed because of Gojo's death. I'm not buying this whole conviction giving a Blitz tier amp.

Sure, but it's also because of his body coursing with CE due to the passion that Geto mentioned, which led to him being in a position in which he could understand the flow of CE better (also, he literally broke his own sword by haphazardly adding too much CE, and you can visually see the shift in emotions he goes through). Like I told you, the case of Geto not being blitzed and Kashimo getting outspeeded don't contradict the fact that a character's stats are boosted by emotions; that's one of the core parts of the narrative. CE itself is negative emotion that is triggered by that, and two distinct conclusions don't debunk the notion. For the part about Sukuna vs. Yuji, Yuji just had the stat boost due to that, with even Sukuna asking himself where his strength came from, even if he was blatantly superior. Again, a different conclusion ≠ an argument being debunked if the core of the examples is the same and indifferent from the conclusions.

Why don't you explain Hakari getting hit Kashimo swinging the metal doors. You think it's faster than Lighting attack itself? Why didn't he dodge that?

The last part is a clear logical fallacy: if Hakari was MHS+ and Kashimo was going relative to him and the door was swung by the latter, then the door slam was at the same speed Kashimo could attack Hakari since the object was guided by the character's momentum. Also, obviously, Hakari didn't mention that they were different events. Let me explain it in a way that can be clear:

Hakari after becoming faster > Kashimo ≈ Hakari, who dodged the lightning discharge.

The chapter in which he decided to sacrifice his body was the 188th, while the lightning-dodging feat happened two chapters earlier.My whole point is that Hakari outspeeded Kashimo because of a surge of emotions, which EMPOWER the characters in the series. Being convicted up to the point of wanting to sacrifice your immortal body and risking everything is very different from having things planned in every detail. Everything i'm saying is basic narrative as well. Also, Kashimo being outspeeded makes more sense than being outright blitzed.

I'll reply to your rebuttal whenever I can since i'm going to sleep. Have a great day/night

 

[Testarossa002]

A calc being correct math wise doesn't automatically mean it's valid for scaling
E.g Hakari being faster than an attack he could barely dodge at the last minute

 

[Sammy818]

Couldn’t teh WCS ignore wind resistance, genuine question

 

[GoodSamaritan07]

Agree with the Gojo, Sukuna and MBA Kashimo upscale but i feel like some staff should overlook the other justifications made for the lower scaling

Still not a fan of how both Gojo and Sukuna don't upscale from Takaba and Yuki's feats considering they're outright stated to be THE strongest of the cast multiple times across the manga. It shouldn't matter at that point if CE isn't a UES since we outright have confirmation that both of them outscale everyone.

 

[Rogue_Forge]

Agree with the Gojo, Sukuna and MBA Kashimo upscale but i feel like some staff should overlook the other justifications made for the lower scaling

Still not a fan of how both Gojo and Sukuna don't upscale from Takaba and Yuki's feats considering they're outright stated to be THE strongest of the cast multiple times across the manga. It shouldn't matter at that point if CE isn't a UES since we outright have confirmation that both of them outscale everyone.

tf feats does Yuki have? the black hole isn't like an attack or anything, its a suicide move that no one knew she had, no one scales to it

Also Takaba is stated to be able to surpass Gojo / Sukuna if he found it to be funny

 

[Bimbitesthedust]

Agree with the Gojo, Sukuna and MBA Kashimo upscale but i feel like some staff should overlook the other justifications made for the lower scaling

Still not a fan of how both Gojo and Sukuna don't upscale from Takaba and Yuki's feats considering they're outright stated to be THE strongest of the cast multiple times across the manga. It shouldn't matter at that point if CE isn't a UES since we outright have confirmation that both of them outscale everyone.

Takabas a weird case given how the comedian works

But Yuki's off limits, her black hole is simply something thats beyond anything and is a suicide bomb that wouldve wiped the entire planet off

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

Sure, but it's also because of his body coursing with CE due to the passion that Geto mentioned, which led to him being in a position in which he could understand the flow of CE better (also, he literally broke his own sword by haphazardly adding too much CE, and you can visually see the shift in emotions he goes through). Like I told you, the case of Geto not being blitzed and Kashimo getting outspeeded don't contradict the fact that a character's stats are boosted by emotions; that's one of the core parts of the narrative. CE itself is negative emotion that is triggered by that, and two distinct conclusions don't debunk the notion. For the part about Sukuna vs. Yuji, Yuji just had the stat boost due to that, with even Sukuna asking himself where his strength came from, even if he was blatantly superior. Again, a different conclusion ≠ an argument being debunked if the core of the examples is the same and indifferent from the conclusions.

Why don't you explain Hakari getting hit Kashimo swinging the metal doors. You think it's faster than Lighting attack itself? Why didn't he dodge that?

The last part is a clear logical fallacy: if Hakari was MHS+ and Kashimo was going relative to him and the door was swung by the latter, then the door slam was at the same speed Kashimo could attack Hakari since the object was guided by the character's momentum. Also, obviously, Hakari didn't mention that they were different events. Let me explain it in a way that can be clear:

Hakari after becoming faster > Kashimo ≈ Hakari, who dodged the lightning discharge.

The chapter in which he decided to sacrifice his body was the 188th, while the lightning-dodging feat happened two chapters earlier.My whole point is that Hakari outspeeded Kashimo because of a surge of emotions, which EMPOWER the characters in the series. Being convicted up to the point of wanting to sacrifice your immortal body and risking everything is very different from having things planned in every detail. Everything i'm saying is basic narrative as well. Also, Kashimo being outspeeded makes more sense than being outright blitzed.

I'll reply to your rebuttal whenever I can since i'm going to sleep. Have a great day/night

Like you failed to give example where a character getting amp so vast they can blitz others & failed to tackle my arguments regarding Yuta vs Kenjaku I'll just gonna skip your arguments too since you are just repeating the same with no proof.

 

[BoastJr]

This verse will never escape the mach 3 allegations

 

[Brainrotted_powerscaler]

Like you failed to give example where a character getting amp so vast they can blitz others & failed to tackle my arguments regarding Yuta vs Kenjaku I'll just gonna skip your arguments too since you are just repeating the same with no proof.

I would suggest to actually read what the other person says, understanding what they're trying to say and how to not commit fallacies to attempt to win the argument, but it's fine; I don't want to waste both of our times either. Have a great day.

 

[Shadowbokunohero]

Op fighting for his life in this thread

 

[Buraqibear]

The mods aren't even taking this seriously bro js give it up and let this be closed

 

[MyriadOfHeartsSpiritualFlowerGarden]

However it is also a direct author statement that Kashimo's electricity either is a bolt of lightning or "like a bolt of lightning" and also would qualify for lighting speed under our guidelines for lightning attacks being eligible for lighting speed

That is however not a direct speed statement and thus you're only assuming the author intended for kashimo to produce lightning as fast as its irl counterpart (which for all intents and purposes, he likely didn't)

If anything all i remember from the statement is he doesn't directly control lightning, but rather makes positive and negative charges that invoke it(and the ability is likened to electricity), idk but it seems that bro is just a walking tesla coil.



There is no way I can see myself ever accenting "relativistic" with all those speeds statements the author gave us, and I think a lot of people are the same here...for different reasons, but the same lol.

 

[Brainrotted_powerscaler]

If anything all i remember from the statement is he doesn't directly control lightning, but rather makes positive and negative charges that invoke it(and the ability is likened to electricity), idk but it seems that bro is just a walking tesla coil.



There is no way I can see myself ever accenting "relativistic" with all those speeds statements the author gave us, and I think a lot of people are the same here...for different reasons, but the same lol.

But the thing is that it's the separation of the charges that makes irl lightning, well...lightning speed.

I just made this imgur post explaining why it is MHS+ Here

For the part about the speed statements, they have to be checked whether or not they're coherent with feats that characters perform and if they're consistent.

 

[ElJoaki5]

Sun is online so I'm 89% sure that he is writting some bullshit in a discord server but

At this point we need some discussion rule about this feat. This feat was argued countless times and it's always the same cycle of arguments. The main thing is, do you plan to scale it to Uraume? Since you know, Uraume could barely react to Piercing Blood, calling it FAST, but could also fight Hakari and counter attack him for almost 50 chapters, with no proof of speedblitz. Their difference would be over 200 times, 200 TIMES. That's more than the difference between a car and a turtle.
You cannot just put the value and not explain the scaling in-deep

Yes, Uraume would scale to this.
The piercing blood inconsistency is overblown, she got offguarded and still stopped it.
The MHS+ could be dropped but the Rela should actually be fine.

Also:

This is another problem. Mach 1304, despiste the lightning being Mach 1282. Why are we scaling Hakari BARELY dodging the lightning, above the lightning? In fact, we have a funny calc rule for these kind of stuff, and it was the reason of why this calc was rejected years ago

From our calc page:

You're taking a line out of this out of context. What this is saying is that you shouldnt calculate feats where a character nearly dodges an attack from someone else that is equal to him. This is not the case here so drop it.

I don't understand why are we assuming that Dismantle had to move that fast? Why the EMWS couldn't have moved further? The world split dismantle would have nulled it anyway and blocked it's path, even if it was moving at transonic speed it would still stop it due to how much thicker is in comparasion to the EMWS. This is just a reaction speed for SUKUNA

This is explained in the calc blog

The same Dismantle that Sukuna warned Kashimo before he fired it, aka aim dodge?

It's almost like ive already mentioned how this is taken into account in the calc

Sukuna does hold back a lot, you know that. His cursed energy does have it's own mechanic where it will weave depending on his motivation and interest, with Uraume saying that he didn't took any battle until Maki seriously, and only went full berserk after his philosophy was in challenge with Maki's existance as a full heavenly restricted, with Sukuna blitzing her completly.

There's no proof of Sukuna using his full power against Kashimo

I dont see how this even responds to anything. MBA Kashimo scaling to MHS+ is because he blitzes the 1hp meguna which blocked base Kashimo's attack two pages before. With base Kashimo having MHS+ reaction speed. Im not scaling MBA Kashimo directly to Sukuna.

 

[ElJoaki5]

Can we at least get rela reaction for god tiers and FTL World Cutting Slash

 

[ElJoaki5]

God tiers, I think my main problems are the Dismantle speed and MBA Kashimos placement, he should be around the high high tiers of scaling rather than God tiers with a possible rating for being higher. Sukuna was mostly toying with Kashimo or was struggling but being able to react when he was at 1% HP and crippled so Idk it doesnt seem as impressive to put MBA kashimo on the same tiers as Gojo and Sukuna at FP

I just put MBA Kashimo there cause he is also MHS+ with relativistic reactions, im not comparing him to Gojo or Sukuna.

 

[ElJoaki5]

Your attempt to mischaracterize it as only reaction speed gets put in the garbage when we pull up several instances of people getting blitzed by Uraume's ct yet also can fight her in combat. Or Yuki blocking a point blank uzumaki or Yuta or Rika blocking Granite Blast or Uro. This is NOT reaction speed. So this scaling would need to be also applied to combat speed since you know they move their arms and body in several of these examples.

No idea how these examples prove what youre claiming. Are you assuming these attack are MHS+? For the Uraume thing, her ct has been shown to be faster than herself an it has a massive area that cant really be dodged without moving a massive distance.

Idk if I'm losing my marbles but how do people think that's a regular dismantle? Kashimo points out its the world slasher. Maybe you didn't think it should be named appropriately here but if not, there's no reason regular dismantles should be FTL. The rest is really just whether we think it's narratively consistent for Sukuna, the fight for the most part demonstrates superiority, just don't think mhs+ superior.

Changed

This the same "he held back thousands of times to have a good time" argument and given we know it's a weakened Sukuna and we know he's about or just above Yuta in terms of overall ce doesn't help at all.

Even when really weakened he was still able to blitz Maki when he stopped holding back. Sukuna is not capped at any speed.

 

[Testarossa002]

20 f Sukuna and relative should have MHS+ combat speeds and also have Relativistic (0.13 c) reaction speeds due to Sukuna reacting to an Electromagnetic Wave.

This should be a combat speed rating
Like, the dude stood there, chanted, and even gave prior notice to Kashimo before counterattacking
Limiting it to RS feels like there's a hidden agenda here
Also, didn't Sukuna blitz Kashimo here? Arguing against it with blocked FoV is null since kashimo has X-ray eyes and still didn't see Sukuna
I'm honestly fine with Gojo/Sukuna (and Mahogara ig) scaling to Rel/FTL. Where I'll vehemently oppose scaling is if (when, if we're being real) someone tries to scale Maki or Yuji or someone else to that level

 

[MrTayman616]

Hakari was able to react to lightning.

Completely disagree with this.

He doesn't react to it at all. We don't see it clearly if it's attacking to his head because of the perspection. But there is no movement effect on Hakari so i wouldn't say so.

Not to mention, Hakari couldn't react to this at all which the distance itself was massively higher. He doesn't react to it here either.

Sukuna was able to react to an Electromagnetic Wave and hit it with a dismantle.

I don't think it's stated that the attack itself is fully made of electromagnetic waves.

It's his physical body that has those effects. I don't think this implies his beams are a beam of electromagnetic waves.

A very weakened Sukuna was able to transform before being killed by the lightning Kashimo fired at him.

How do we know that? We did see an explosion from the attack and Sukuna's transformation fully heals his body like RCT.

Isn't it that he regens here rather than "He healed himself before the attack hits and then tanked the attack"?

 

[MyriadOfHeartsSpiritualFlowerGarden]

But the thing is that it's the separation of the charges that makes irl lightning, well...lightning speed.

I just made this imgur post explaining why it is MHS+ Here

Charge separation is a requisite for lightning, but it's not really enough by itself, a balloon when rubbed against your hair has negative and positive charges (your hair becomes positively charged and the balloon negatively charged)

Even with a high enough voltage, the result would be something like a Tesla coil, this isn't really evidence for lightning speed especially with the ecplicit speed statements we have.

For the part about the speed statements, they have to be checked whether or not they're coherent with feats that characters perform and if they're consistent.

They are very much consistent, if you look only at the statements nothing ever paints the image of characters hundreds of thousands of times faster than sound.

the only outlierish thing is the EW (edit: also wasn't Sukuna hit with actual soundwaves in that fight?), otherwise piercing blood, mach 3 Naoya, the time frames in the Gojo vs Sukuna fight, literally nothing gives them impression of relativistic, not even characters statue each other at all for us to argue they're hundreds of times faster than each other (or hell, neither is piercing blood ever treated like an absolute joke)

I just can't see it.