Hazbin Hotel Discussion Thread

[Stellar_Fish]

Hey!

I mean yeah, that would be a far better and more reasonable response than getting all debatebro about it ngl

 

[DeadlyMonarchChewstheDirt]

Question, what is y'all view on what Al and Adam had over each other, cuz my look on it is that you all think:
Al: IQ, Versatility
Adam: AP/Dura, Speed, Angelic Resistance

when it was painfully obvious that it was more

Al: Speed, IQ, Versatility
Adam: AP/Dura, Angelic Resistance

Like, people seem to willfully ignore how Al was toying with him, reacted to the attack that was "actually serious" which proves that Al is still close at least, and all the times he caught him off guard, cuz let me remind all of you, "you can lower how fast you swing, but not how fast you react", which still makes no sense because why the hell are we assuming that Adam is that disciplined when he's shown the opposite, not accounting that its basic knowledge that if your attacks aren't hitting due to the other being faster, you go faster.

And Rosies statement only accounted for power and Adams angelic resistance, CUZ EVEN NIFFTY COULD KILL HIM. I'm so tired of the excuse that he was on deaths door, if Adam was at full health and Niffty gave him the same treatment, he would still die, angelic weapons are literally the equalizer

like, put a normal dude with a gun (and some training) against a polar bear, yes the polar bear is stronger, but the weapon kinda neutralizes that, and Niffty clearly has more than "some training" considering that it's now up for debate that she used to be an overlord like Husk, and how she handled Val.

Me and others have compiled all the evidence (separately) that Al had speed on his side, IK it's a lot of ifs, but they are supported ifs, he hit Adam multiple times, imagine if his shadow just uppercut him with an angelic knife instead of its fist, Adam would be dead, we see that angelic wounds are handled differently, Val gets stabbed multiple times and even through the chest and is just fine, but AL gets one gash across his chest and is out for the count (depowered but still), and Adam got back up from his beating fine enough because of how much Luci was holding back, but one stab through the back has him on the floor.

 

[DaReaperMan]

If Al was faster, would he not have dodged it instead of acting like a dumbass and holding his cane out like a Skaven caster tyring to block a Starstone mace with a ******* book.

 

[DeadlyMonarchChewstheDirt]

If Al was faster, would he not have dodged it instead of acting like a dumbass and holding his cane out like a Skaven caster tyring to block a Starstone mace with a ******* book.

Why would he? he thought he was stronger and could tank it, his own arrogance cost him, there is no contradiction here

 

[DaReaperMan]

If he thought he was stronger why was he dodging every attack up to that point? You're making Alastor more of an IQ deficient idiot in combat than he already is.

 

[DeadlyMonarchChewstheDirt]

If he thought he was stronger why was he dodging every attack up to that point? You're making Alastor more of an IQ deficient idiot in combat than he already is.

To taunt Adam? thats an easy one to answer
on top of the fact that he clearly learned from Adam, because when he fights the Vees, he keeps his staff closer to himself and doesn't try blocking with it again, its called "learning from your mistakes"

 

[DeadlyMonarchChewstheDirt]

actually not even,

To taunt Adam? thats an easy one to answer
on top of the fact that he clearly learned from Adam, because when he fights the Vees, he keeps his staff closer to himself and doesn't try blocking with it again, its called "learning from your mistakes"

he would still dodge because why even take the hit if you don't have to? 2 reasons why he would dodge

 

[DaReaperMan]

To taunt Adam? thats an easy one to answer
on top of the fact that he clearly learned from Adam, because when he fights the Vees, he keeps his staff closer to himself and doesn't try blocking with it again, its called "learning from your mistakes"

How about look at the REST OF THE FIGHT where Alastor is TALKING to taunt.

actually not even,

he would still dodge because why even take the hit if you don't have to? 2 reasons why he would dodge

Now you're catching on!

 

[DeadlyMonarchChewstheDirt]

How about look at the REST OF THE FIGHT where Alastor is TALKING to taunt.

You know there are more ways to taunt than that right? otherwise why isn't AL just staying out of range which he is more than capable of? He can literally disappear into shadow and teleport

Now you're catching on!

why are you always so sarcastic? im trying to make a point and it feels like you just cant hold back on wanting to dogpile an opinion you don't like without being able to see its merits, if AL is as fast as Adam, then the fight doesn't change, the guy lost because he didnt bring angelic weapons, he was catching Adam off guard, and blocked the "serious" attack which is literally what reactions are, by definition AL is at least on the same level as Adam in speed, I can believe that, hell, a downscale is fine, but trying to say that he is significantly slower would make that battle make no sense, cuz then why doesn't Adam ever get a hit in until Al decided to block with his staff instead of teleporting?

 

[Ruby_R_Dracula]

This is probably the only thread I saw where the supporters of the verse fight eachother like very very frequently over the scaling of the verse lol
(then again I'm not really in much threads)

 

[Stellar_Fish]

Question, what is y'all view on what Al and Adam had over each other, cuz my look on it is that you all think:
Al: IQ, Versatility
Adam: AP/Dura, Speed, Angelic Resistance

when it was painfully obvious that it was more

Al: Speed, IQ, Versatility
Adam: AP/Dura, Angelic Resistance

Like, people seem to willfully ignore how Al was toying with him, reacted to the attack that was "actually serious" which proves that Al is still close at least, and all the times he caught him off guard, cuz let me remind all of you, "you can lower how fast you swing, but not how fast you react", which still makes no sense because why the hell are we assuming that Adam is that disciplined when he's shown the opposite, not accounting that its basic knowledge that if your attacks aren't hitting due to the other being faster, you go faster.

And Rosies statement only accounted for power and Adams angelic resistance, CUZ EVEN NIFFTY COULD KILL HIM. I'm so tired of the excuse that he was on deaths door, if Adam was at full health and Niffty gave him the same treatment, he would still die, angelic weapons are literally the equalizer

like, put a normal dude with a gun (and some training) against a polar bear, yes the polar bear is stronger, but the weapon kinda neutralizes that, and Niffty clearly has more than "some training" considering that it's now up for debate that she used to be an overlord like Husk, and how she handled Val.

Me and others have compiled all the evidence (separately) that Al had speed on his side, IK it's a lot of ifs, but they are supported ifs, he hit Adam multiple times, imagine if his shadow just uppercut him with an angelic knife instead of its fist, Adam would be dead, we see that angelic wounds are handled differently, Val gets stabbed multiple times and even through the chest and is just fine, but AL gets one gash across his chest and is out for the count (depowered but still), and Adam got back up from his beating fine enough because of how much Luci was holding back, but one stab through the back has him on the floor.

What happened in the fight is: Adam was being cocky, Alastor showed to have an advantage, so Adam got mad and blitzed + one-shotted him. That's pretty much an objective description of it.

I see it like this: A pro MMA fighter is toying with a little kid, that kid insists on biting him and kicking him in the groin and sht like that, so he gets mad and punches the kid with his full strength and kills the lil shit lol (Literally me)

A way to make more sense of this, since Adam was clearly annoyed, is that he was using just some sort of base form that doesn't encapsulate his full angelic power; his axe grew before he humbled Al, so that could be an indication that angels have some kind of angelic transformation analogue to demonic forms. So basically, Alastor surpassed a form of Adam that had a fraction of his power.

Admittedly, that last part is basically headcanon, and the first response is the most likely one. In any case, it's clear that Alastor never stood a chance against Adam, and even his strongest attacks just annoyed him a lil.

 

[Anonymous_Learner]

If Al was faster, would he not have dodged it instead of acting like a dumbass and holding his cane out like a Skaven caster tyring to block a Starstone mace with a ******* book.

Adam's lasers are currently accepted as a blitz above his own stats and, before the nerfs, were Mach 70+ when he was Mach 19.
I don't have to explain why that would blitz Alastor

 

[DaReaperMan]

You know there are more ways to taunt than that right? otherwise why isn't AL just staying out of range which he is more than capable of? He can literally disappear into shadow and teleport

Show me Alastor taunting without using his voice. You have uh... him slapping Vaggie on the ass once... and that's about it.

why are you always so sarcastic? im trying to make a point and it feels like you just cant hold back on wanting to dogpile an opinion you don't like without being able to see its merits, if AL is as fast as Adam, then the fight doesn't change, the guy lost because he didnt bring angelic weapons, he was catching Adam off guard, and blocked the "serious" attack which is literally what reactions are, by definition AL is at least on the same level as Adam in speed, I can believe that, hell, a downscale is fine, but trying to say that he is significantly slower would make that battle make no sense, cuz then why doesn't Adam ever get a hit in until Al decided to block with his staff instead of teleporting?

And if Al is slower, him not dodging Adam's holy light attack and instead blocking it actually makes sense, instead of having to pull an assumption like "Alastor was trying to taunt him!" Out of your ass. If you want me to not be a sassy *****, maybe don't pull shit that makes you seem like you just want specific characters or the verse to be stronger constantly, to the point of to the face of me, saying you're going to go ask several leading questions to Vivzie.

Respect is earned, and you've proven to be in the "Big number makes Dopamine so I chase big number" crowd.

Adam's lasers are currently accepted as a blitz above his own stats and, before the nerfs, were Mach 70+ when he was Mach 19.
I don't have to explain why that would blitz Alastor

If we want to say Adam scales in AP to his light, he'll scale in speed, too.

Can't have your cake and eat it to, either Adam is 8-A with tier 7 blitz beams, or he's tier 7 and his beams scale to him in speed and vice versa.

 

[DeadlyMonarchChewstheDirt]

What happened in the fight is: Adam was being cocky, Alastor showed to have an advantage, so Adam got mad and blitzed + one-shotted him. That's pretty much an objective description of it.

I see it like this: A pro MMA fighter is toying with a little kid, that kid insists on biting him and kicking him in the groin and sht like that, so he gets mad and punches the kid with his full strength and kills the lil shit lol (Literally me)

A way to make more sense of this, since Adam was clearly annoyed, is that he was using just some sort of base form that doesn't encapsulate his full angelic power; his axe grew before he humbled Al, so that could be an indication that angels have some kind of angelic transformation analogue to demonic forms. So basically, Alastor surpassed a form of Adam that had a fraction of his power.

Admittedly, that last part is basically headcanon, and the first response is the most likely one. In any case, it's clear that Alastor never stood a chance against Adam, and even his strongest attacks just annoyed him a lil.

Right, but AL DID block that "true power" strike, Im not saying he HAS to be faster, just that he is more comparable to Adam than we give credit for,

"so Adam got mad and blitzed + one-shotted him"

this being my main problem, he didn't "blitz" him, he weakened him and caught him off guard, this doesn't scale to full AL

 

[Anonymous_Learner]

If we want to say Adam scales in AP to his light, he'll scale in speed, too.

Can't have your cake and eat it to, either Adam is 8-A with tier 7 blitz beams, or he's tier 7 and his beams scale to him in speed and vice versa.

his lasers are shown repeatedly to be faster than his physicals and he endured getting beat on by Lucifer who's stronger than his beams so he should still be physically 7-C with blitz amp lasers
Though, depending on my mood, i'll gladly downgrade adam to 8-A with 7-C beam. Downgrades for Hellaverse Adam please me more than Alastor upgrades do

 

[DaReaperMan]

his lasers are shown repeatedly to be faster than his physicals and he endured getting beat on by Lucifer who's stronger than his beams so he should still be physically 7-C

So essentially, you're pullin' my leg here...

Because no, his beams are never shown to be outright faster than he is.

 

[Stellar_Fish]

this being my main problem, he didn't "blitz" him, he weakened him and caught him off guard, this doesn't scale to full AL

Idk why you think that. Alastor was using his full power, as evidenced by the X mark on his forehead. He was also directly looking at Adam, who was insulting him and clearly preparing an attack. Alastor was constantly dodging before, while being in a much more casual state, so he definitely would have dodged that attack if he were as fast as you suggest.

Right, but AL DID block that "true power" strike, Im not saying he HAS to be faster, just that he is more comparable to Adam than we give credit for,

Alastor was fast enough to block it instinctively before the attack landed. You can say that, but he didn't even know what happened, so saying that his reaction speed is comparable to Adam's speed is a little silly, blocking by instinct only shows that he knows how to fight well enough to unconsciously cover himself when he sees something that he can't avoid, basically like having a jumpscare if a tiger attacked you out of the woods.

 

[DaReaperMan]

Listen I think Stellar Fish here has had a lot of shittakes... but shiitake mushrooms this ain't one of em.

 

[DeadlyMonarchChewstheDirt]

Show me Alastor taunting without using his voice. You have uh... him slapping Vaggie on the ass once... and that's about it.

remember when he said, "tougher than you" and proceeded to weave all his attacks easily? that's a form of taunting believe it or not

And if Al is slower, him not dodging Adam's holy light attack and instead blocking it actually makes sense, instead of having to pull an assumption like "Alastor was trying to taunt him!" Out of your ass

I'm not saying he was a million times above him, I'm just trying to respect what power he has, if he downscales that's fine, but he shouldn't be more than 1 level beneath Adam, or the fight makes no sense, if Adam gets MHS, then Al could have an "at most" or go down to high hyper, considering we did that exact same thing for Red Rush in invincible except on AP/DURA

If you want me to not be a sassy *****, maybe don't pull shit that makes you seem like you just want specific characters or the verse to be stronger constantly,

that doesn't excuse being sassy when you could just prove me wrong that AL can't even downscale

to the point of to the face of me, saying you're going to go ask several leading questions to Vivzie

I've gone past that

Respect is earned, and you've proven to be in the "Big number makes Dopamine so I chase big number" crowd.

Powerscaling is debating, I'm trying to argue my point, if I get proof that I'm wrong then I. am. wrong. But I haven't gotten anything that wouldn't still put AL close to Adam/downscale him, which is better than him being supersonic while Adam is MHS (assuming the re-calc goes through)

Can't have your cake and eat it to, either Adam is 8-A with tier 7 blitz beams, or he's tier 7 and his beams scale to him in speed and vice versa.

Then he scales to his beams and AL downscales hard

 

[DeadlyMonarchChewstheDirt]

Idk why you think that. Alastor was using his full power, as evidenced by the X mark on his forehead. He was also directly looking at Adam, who was insulting him and clearly preparing an attack. Alastor was constantly dodging before, while being in a much more casual state, so he definitely would have dodged that attack if he were as fast as you suggest.

Alastor was fast enough to block it instinctively before the attack landed. You can say that, but he didn't even know what happened, so saying that his reaction speed is comparable to Adam's speed is a little silly, blocking by instinct only shows that he knows how to fight well enough to unconsciously cover himself when he sees something that he can't avoid, basically like having a jumpscare if a tiger attacked you out of the woods.

Cant he at least get high hyper then? (assuming the re-calc goes through)

 

[Stellar_Fish]

Listen I think Stellar Fish here has had a lot of shittakes... but shiitake mushrooms this ain't one of em.

Lmao, this is my first actual powerscaling take here

Cant he at least get high hyper then?

I don't think he should scale to Adam's speed unless you jumpscared when a tiger attacks you means you're as fast as a tiger

 

[Anonymous_Learner]

So essentially, you're pullin' my leg here...

Because no, his beams are never shown to be outright faster than he is.

He gets repeatedly dodged by Alastor? Blitzes him with lasers before no diffing weakened Al. Pentious charges laser that could've hit and harmed him? Uses laser that took one frame that's 67 m in diameter. Gets blitzed by Lucifer? spams lasers that either get aimed dodged or dodged (i'm not sure what we do with Lucifer's speed. if we accept that he dodges them, he should upscale Adam's lasers speed...whenever it's calced).
Though, if you really don't think they're a blitz amp, as i've stated, i'm more than happy removing it

 

[Stellar_Fish]

I don't think he should scale to Adam's speed unless you jumpscared when a tiger attacks you means you're as fast as a tiger

Actually, forget that lmao. When a tiger attacks you, you can actually see the tiger and understand what's happening, so that's a bad analogy; the gap is much bigger than that. Alastor probably didn't even see Adam's actual attack; he just saw Adam preparing to attack for an instant and covered himself as best as he could. I'm pretty sure a person could somehow react the same way to a bullet if someone shot from a long enough distance.

 

[DeadlyMonarchChewstheDirt]

I don't think he should scale to Adam's speed unless you jumpscared when a tiger attacks you means you're as fast as a tiger

fine then, not like I use this as my only source anyway, just helps with vs match ups with my friends, no use in me getting more mad if my arguments are just seen as wrong

Alastor was fast enough to block it instinctively before the attack landed. You can say that, but he didn't even know what happened, so saying that his reaction speed is comparable to Adam's speed is a little silly, blocking by instinct only shows that he knows how to fight well enough to unconsciously cover himself when he sees something that he can't avoid,

"what just happened" was him being shocked he got knocked out of his demon form, and even if it was instinctual, considering that he is a good fighter, downscaling still makes sense if that was his limit

basically like having a jumpscare if a tiger attacked you out of the woods.

well...AL is more akin to a trained boxer, who have "superhuman" c/r, so using me as the example when I'm not used to fighting doesnt make much sense to me, but I see your point

 

[DeadlyMonarchChewstheDirt]

He gets repeatedly dodged by Alastor? Blitzes him with lasers before no diffing weakened Al. Pentious charges laser that could've hit and harmed him? Uses laser that took one frame that's 67 m in diameter. Gets blitzed by Lucifer? spams lasers that either get aimed dodged or dodged (i'm not sure what we do with Lucifer's speed. if we accept that he dodges them, he should upscale Adam's lasers speed...whenever it's calced).
Though, if you really don't think they're a blitz amp, as i've stated, i'm more than happy removing it

Luci dodges most of them with aim dodge, though there are some he dodges directly too, I would say that it warrants a "possibly" rating

 

[Stellar_Fish]

get aimed dodged

Lucifer dodged some of them with closed eyes

 

[DaReaperMan]

remember when he said, "tougher than you" and proceeded to weave all his attacks easily? that's a form of taunting believe it or not

No, dodging attacks is basic combat skill, not a taunt. So is blocking.

I'm not saying he was a million times above him, I'm just trying to respect what power he has, if he downscales that's fine, but he shouldn't be more than 1 level beneath Adam, or the fight makes no sense, if Adam gets MHS, then Al could have an "at most" or go down to high hyper, considering we did that exact same thing for Red Rush in invincible except on AP/DURA

I know how At most works. I have made like a dozen profiles of that variety. I am fine with Alastor downscaling from Adam in speed, if he didn't scale at all, Adam would have split him in two rather than just mortally wound him(In fact the position Alastor is in when he's hit says he was partway through dodging). My disagreement is saying Alastor scales to or above Adam.

(Basically, Al's prime speed would be "At most Adam's speed")

that doesn't excuse being sassy when you could just prove me wrong that AL can't even downscale

Why do you think I'm not staff, mate? People like to joke I should be(or actually believe it, god forbid) but I'm only really fit for Image Helper and maybe Content Mod.

I've gone past that

Powerscaling is debating, I'm trying to argue my point, if I get proof that I'm wrong then I. am. wrong. But I haven't gotten anything that wouldn't still put AL close to Adam/downscale him, which is better than him being supersonic while Adam is MHS (assuming the re-calc goes through)

Your argument before was that Al upscales, I'm fine with him downscaling.

Then he scales to his beams and AL downscales hard

Indeed.

He gets repeatedly dodged by Alastor? Blitzes him with lasers before no diffing weakened Al.

Oh wow the casual Adam got dodged. You know where I stand on this subject.

Pentious charges laser that could've hit and harmed him? Uses laser that took one frame that's 67 m in diameter.

false equivalence, prove Adam's beams and Pentious' beams are comparable.

Gets blitzed by Lucifer?

If someone behind you punches you in the back of the head, are they blitzing you? The answer is no. Now, show me where Adam's eyes where when Lucifer started attacking him.

Thats right, Adam wasn't even looking at him, he was looking up, dazed as ****, then Lucifer started attacking.

spams lasers that either get aimed dodged or dodged (i'm not sure what we do with Lucifer's speed. if we accept that he dodges them, he should upscale Adam's lasers speed...whenever it's calced).

He should, because Luci was definitely casual that whole fight.

Though, if you really don't think they're a blitz amp, as i've stated, i'm more than happy removing it

I think that as long as we're saying Adam is comparable to his beams in AP, he's comparable to them in speed too.

 

[DeadlyMonarchChewstheDirt]

Lucifer dodged some of them with closed eyes

This was a better one, he transformed from a horse and dodged it directly

 

[DeadlyMonarchChewstheDirt]

No, dodging attacks is basic combat skill, not a taunt. So is blocking.

I know how At most works. I have made like a dozen profiles of that variety. I am fine with Alastor downscaling from Adam in speed, if he didn't scale at all, Adam would have split him in two rather than just mortally wound him(In fact the position Alastor is in when he's hit says he was partway through dodging). My disagreement is saying Alastor scales to or above Adam.

(Basically, Al's prime speed would be "At most Adam's speed")

Your argument before was that Al upscales, I'm fine with him downscaling.

Ok then, sorry for not clarifying that downscaling was something I'd be happy with, that's my bad, I apologize

I think that as long as we're saying Adam is comparable to his beams in AP, he's comparable to them in speed too.

He really should, he is made of the same stuff he shoots, think like a less gross esidisi from JoJo, he deserves it

 

[DeadlyMonarchChewstheDirt]

Hazbin Hotel: Adam's lasers recalc

vsbattles.fandom.com

gonna put this in a calc eval thread

 

[DeadlyMonarchChewstheDirt]

its up now, how many do I need for it to be considered worthy of a CRT? I'm pretty sure the hellaverse only needs 2 mods, etc for a CRT, but I dunno about the calc eval

 

[Stellar_Fish]

This was a better one

Rewatching the fight, while Lucifer was dodging Adam's lasers with closed eyes, Adam was capable of grabbing him on two occasions, so I don't know where the idea that he's slower than his lasers comes from.
The fact that Lucifer can still be grabbed by Adam despite him dodging his lasers with closed eyes probably means that Lucifer has some form of enhanced senses or extrasensory perception, or he's just a very good fighter. Since the gap in speed isn't as big as it might look at first.

 

[DeadlyMonarchChewstheDirt]

Rewatching the fight, while Lucifer was dodging Adam's lasers with closed eyes, Adam was capable of grabbing him on two occasions, so I don't know where the idea that he's slower than his lasers comes from.
The fact that Lucifer can still be grabbed by Adam despite him dodging his lasers with closed eyes probably means that Lucifer has some form of enhanced senses or extrasensory perception, or he's just a very good fighter. Since the gap in speed isn't as big as it might look at first.

I think that Adam just sucks at aiming, not like Luci couldn't handle a sharpshooter Adam even if he didnt suck, I'd say that he deserves the same speed with the justification that he is faster than serious Adam (also transformed Charlie would scale)

 

[Anonymous_Learner]

Lucifer dodged some of them with closed eyes

He should, because Luci was definitely casual that whole fight.

Lucifer upscaling Adam's laser speed is fine by me (always thought it was weird he didn't have it on profile)
Oh, and Prime Alastor's faster than Adam's nonlaser combat because I say so

 

[Anonymous_Learner]

so, reaper, are we waiting for more context before we nerf Vox or nah?

 

[DaReaperMan]

so, reaper, are we waiting for more context before we nerf Vox or nah?

I'm waiting until the season ends to touch a damn thing.

 

[Anonymous_Learner]

fair enough.

 

[ShionAH]

Anyone who thinks Adam isn't one of the highest angels of Heaven (he isn't weaker than featless bums) is wrong

 

[Anonymous_Learner]

can't believe I agree with Adam's biggest glazer

 

[FinePoint]

I hate that literal Lucifer from the Bible is equalized by... a type of metal.