The Revenant Marvel Comics Discussion Thread

[ObberGobb]

2-A is the better choice since that would have been the tier if God Realms were not accepted as 5-D at that time. Scaling heralds to skyfather level is meh.

I don't think that Heralds should scale to Skyfathers (except maybe Thanos and peak Thor but idk). High 1-B Heralds would come from scaling to Thor and Hercules' Yggdrasil feats. 2-A would be good. The big feat for that is Eric Masterson's feat, but are there other 2-A feats that could support it?

 

[Tomfer]

But Moon Knight

You say this to the only street level who has a good excuse to have BS tier 1 haxs and feats, lmao.

 

[Hayato5652]

Who did the large-scale scaling of 1-A?
Because there are so many 1-A characters

 

[ObberGobb]

Who did the large-scale scaling of 1-A?
Because there are so many 1-A characters

I am partially to blame, as my Yggdrasil thread resulted in everyone Skyfather Tier and higher being 1-A. BUT, its not entirely my fault as I initially proposed Yggdrasil being High 1-B in that thread but a concurrent thread upgraded Earth-616 realms to 1-A.

 

[Hayato5652]

I am partially to blame, as my Yggdrasil thread resulted in everyone Skyfather Tier and higher being 1-A. BUT, its not entirely my fault as I initially proposed Yggdrasil being High 1-B in that thread but a concurrent thread upgraded Earth-616 realms to 1-A.

I don’t think it’s too late to re-evaluate the character tiers, but it’s gonna take quite some time

 

[ObberGobb]

I don’t think it’s too late to re-evaluate the character tiers, but it’s gonna take quite some time

Not necessarily. Everyone already seems in agreement on High 1-B

 

[Entity]

The Hulk is canonically rather slow

false

 

[Hayato5652]

false

I think Hulk can have immeasurable speed. Is it possible for his speed to be upgrade?Because he also has Tier 1-A, and immeasurable speed is essential for that

 

[Antvasima]

The based take is give up and make all Marvel Combat speeds Unknown because speed is the worst stat in all of fiction ever and Marvel's host of other problems ain't helping it.

But that is a conversation the "tolerant" left ain't ready to have

Well, either that or only scale them from their own personal speed feats if they have any.

 

[Antvasima]

false

Nope. His running feats are not even supersonic, and his jumping feats are at best massively hypersonic, if I remember correctly, and low level characters can usually outspeed him.

He really truly genuinely is not supposed to be very fast, but since the writers have to accommodate the "Hulk is strongest there is! Smash puny everyone! Me so important even though me behaves like an idiotic maniac with less self-control and emotional maturity than a bipolar toddler! Raah! Also, me used to invent nuclear weapons, but me am hero anyway because writers say so!" hype, they have to cheat by immensely slowing down all of the powerful characters with immensely higher speed feats during any confrontations, or they would not be interesting for the readers.

 

[Hayato5652]

Nope. His running feats are not even supersonic, and his jumping feats are at best massively hypersonic, if I remember correctly, and low level characters can usually outspeed him.

He really truly genuinely is not supposed to be very fast, but since the writers have to accommodate the "Hulk is strongest there is! Smash puny everyone! Me so important even though me behaves like an idiotic maniac with less self-control and emotional maturity than a bipolar toddler! Raah! Also, me used to invent nuclear weapons, but me am hero anyway because writers say so!" hype, they have to cheat by immensely slowing down all of the powerful characters with immensely higher speed feats during any confrontations, or they would not be interesting for the readers.

I don’t think travel speed matters that much, Combat speed and reaction speed are more practical and better, and Hulk already has those, in the form of infinite speed

 

[Entity]

if I remember correctly, and low level characters can usually outspeed him.

Like every other heavy hitter, it's the only plot device for low level charcters to not be annihilated by the strongest characters. But Hulk is stated to be fast, not a slow character, you could also see that in the indestructible Hulk run.

His running feats are not even supersonic, and his jumping feats are at best massively hypersonic

Unfortunately he does not fly

He really truly genuinely is not supposed to be very fast, but since the writers have to accommodate the "Hulk is strongest there is! Smash puny everyone! Me so important even though me behaves like an idiotic maniac with less self-control and emotional maturity than a bipolar toddler! Raah! Also, me used to invent nuclear weapons, but me am hero anyway because writers say so!" hype, they have to cheat by immensely slowing down all of the powerful characters with immensely higher speed feats during any confrontations, or they would not be interesting for the readers.

What a great level of understanding, all praise mighty Thor

 

[Excellence616]

Nope. His running feats are not even supersonic, and his jumping feats are at best massively hypersonic, if I remember correctly, and low level characters can usually outspeed him.

Same as most fast characters

He really truly genuinely is not supposed to be very fast, but since the writers have to accommodate the "Hulk is strongest there is! Smash puny everyone! Me so important even though me behaves like an idiotic maniac with less self-control and emotional maturity than a bipolar toddler! Raah! Also, me used to invent nuclear weapons, but me am hero anyway because writers say so!" hype, they have to cheat by immensely slowing down all of the powerful characters with immensely higher speed feats during any confrontations, or they would not be interesting for the readers.

Not this again

 

[Antvasima]

The relevant point is just that Hulk doesn't have any impressive speed feats at all of his own, just a lot of plot convention.

I am also not at all fond of any villain protagonists marketed as heroic role models to aspire towards, and consider the Hulk's only validity of existence to be that She-Hulk, who is an awesome and enormously more synpathetic character, wouldn't exist without him, but that is just an aside mention, and there are far worse cases than the Hulk available for Marvel Comics, which has turned distastefully corrupt, morbid, and amoral over the years in general.

 

[Excellence616]

I am also not at all fond of any villain protagonists marketed as heroic role models to aspire towards, and consider the Hulk's only validity of existence to be that She-Hulk, who is an awesome and enormously more synpathetic character, wouldn't exist without him, but that is just an aside mention, and there are far worse cases than the Hulk available for Marvel Comics, which has turned distastefully corrupt, morbid, and amoral over the years in general.

Let She Hulk goes through the same shit as Parker then we decide.

 

[Tomfer]

We should not take Ant's opinions very seriously. Just let him go.

 

[Antvasima]

Let She Hulk goes through the same shit as Parker then we decide.

If the only point of an ongoing story is to convey that everything is hopeless, nothing can ever get any better no matter the effort, and all everybody have to look forward to is endless trauma and misery, then there is no valid point or merit to the story, just doomscrolling demoralising content slop that definitely doesn't qualify as entertainment, and that is designed to get its consumers addicted to its neverending negative oppression without any conclusions, and we get more than enough of that sort of content from the news media already.

That said, Peter himself is quite likeable, especially compared to the X-Men, who are largely villain protagonists at this point, but his narrative definitely isn't.

 

[Hayato5652]

No matter how bad Parker is, he’s still the hero of my childhood and of all of ours and the way I see him in my mind will never change

 

[Antvasima]

Peter Parker is a great character in himself. That is not what I meant. The point is that the story narratives that his authors place him in seem to try to show that all effort and altrusim just lead to endless hopeless suffering, horror, trauma, and despair, no matter the effort, and I do not think that is a healthy moral to teach the audiences.

 

[SamanPatou]

That's sort of the complete opppsite, the writers make Peter go through all sort of misery but he never once lost hope in spite of the odds, so this criticism is fundamentally groundless, I'm sorry.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, to me it seems like he is just endlessly tortured and traumatised for all of his efforts to help others, with nothing ever getting any better for either himself or the world he lives in, and I don't like that kind of destructive story moral. It feels like a pointless version of a groundhog day narrative where everything is endlessly awful.

 

[Antvasima]

What a great level of understanding, all praise mighty Thor

Also, Thor is a hit or miss for me depending on if he is written in a sympathetic manner or not.

 

[SamanPatou]

Well, to me it seems like he is just endlessly tortured and traumatised for all of his efforts to help others, with nothing ever getting any better for either himself or the world he lives in, and I don't like that kind of destructive story moral. It feels like a pointless version of a groundhog day narrative where everything is endlessly awful.

I feel like you only stop at halfway through the stories, because of course things have to unfold negatively for the protagonist in order to convey a story, but Peter's efforts nearly-always (because drama's as well necessary) culminate in either the salvation of the world, of his loved ones or the resolution of a considerable problem, with his will to push through hardships being the driving factor that lets him come out triumphant.
One could draw a comparison to real life, which is necessarily hard to navigate through and can't act like it always will be without misery. The moral of these stories is to teach to never give up and they fundamentally do it.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, maybe it is just the circular storytelling without any endings that I have grown tired of over the years, and now consider inherently destructive overall, since there is no true change for the better within them and Peter just keeps being miserable almost all the time. I do not perceive any joy, hope, or enthusiasm for life within such stories, at best just tenacity to endure endless torture.

 

[Antvasima]

Just to clarify, to avoid misunderstandings:

Altruism, bravery, genuine heroism, protecting innocents and civilians, and fighting against evil: Great.

Marvel Comics as a whole has largely turned into a hopeless, joyless, morbid, and dystopian mess populated by antiheroes and villain protagonists, where there is no gradual progress for the better: Not great at all.

That is pretty much it.

 

[MrKerf]

Marvel Comics as a whole

Though, it is worth mentioning that some stories are awesome. 8 deaths of Spider-Man is a great one of recent (well, recent-ish). What is more heroic than redeeming Cyttorak himself?

 

[Antvasima]

Yes. That was a good story. Agreed. Maybe Joe Kelly will continue to try to make the Spider-Man stories less depressing. I think that he has expressed similar sentiments to myself about modern superhero stories in the past, and he was one of the creators of Ben 10.

 

[Jimmy.robinson.5099]

Yes. That was a good story. Agreed. Maybe Joe Kelly will continue to try to make the Spider-Man stories less depressing. I think that he has expressed similar sentiments to myself about modern superhero stories in the past.

FWIW, Peter himself seems pretty happy in space with the not-Guardians of the Galaxy.

 

[Antvasima]

I suppose so, yes. Like I said, I have been following Marvel Comics since I was very small, and at this point it all just blends together into one long extremely messy storyline that seems to turn increasingly darker, hopeless, and unheroic, so I am likely biased from that perspective.

However, on the other hand, the older stories likely largely only seemed to be less dark due to nostalgia.

As I showed with a few Fantastic Four scans earlier in this thread, yes, those stories had more of a shiny happy optimistic surface, but both Stan Lee and John Byrne, for example, both used "nuke the commies back to the stone age"-style genocidal rhetorics within their stories, Stan Lee used to demonise Asians within some of his other stories, he created Galactus as an embracement of might makes right social Darwinism, and said that it is perfectly fine for Doctor Doom to want to enslave the entire world, whereas John Byrne completely endorsed Galactus as a concept, and made seemingly genocidal statements about Muslims after 9/11. And I suspect that old-style cold war mentalities from other writers such as the Ayn Rand fanatic Steve Ditko, weren't really any nicer.

I think that most of the modern writers are likely considerably kinder and more idealistic people as such than the older generation in terms of personal values (Yes, Bill Willingham seems to be an evil monster, but speaking more generally). I just find most of their stories depressingly and unconstructively dystopian, morbid, joyless, and hopeless.

 

[MrKerf]

I think that most of the modern writers are likely considerably kinder and more idealistic people as such than the older generation in terms of personal values

I find it hard to believe. But in general, every questionable writing decision of old can be summed up as the product of its time. And probably most decisions of today too.

I, too, dislike how heroes are treated these days.

Abandon cynicism. Embrace hopefulness. Read Chronicles of Narnia.

 

[Antvasima]

Yes. Largely agreed.

 

[AcidSilver]

I am also not at all fond of any villain protagonists marketed as heroic role models to aspire towards, and consider the Hulk's only validity of existence to be that She-Hulk, who is an awesome and enormously more synpathetic character, wouldn't exist without him, but that is just an aside mention, and there are far worse cases than the Hulk available for Marvel Comics, which has turned distastefully corrupt, morbid, and amoral over the years in general.

It's kind of crazy to say this when the most popular modern Hulk story ends on a hopeful note and the statement that the Hulk isn't the mindless rage monster that people see him as who was only created to be a force of pain and destruction. That he's just as capable of good and kindness as everyone else because all of us have two sides and it's up to us to choose to be kind and merciful and refuse the world's attempts to make that choice for you.

 

[Entity]

It's kind of crazy to say this when the most popular modern Hulk story ends on a hopeful note and the statement that the Hulk isn't the mindless rage monster that people see him as who was only created to be a force of pain and destruction. That he's just as capable of good and kindness as everyone else because all of us have two sides and it's up to us to choose to be kind and merciful and refuse the world's attempts to make that choice for you.

With these hands I build
With other hands I break
I break to build anew

Have you my strength?
Have you an arm like mine?
Would you build, or break?

You are my creation
I made you the counterweight

To ask of you
Are you Geburah or Golachab?
And what of Chesed?
What of Mercy?

What will you become?
For the left hand is strength
But the right hand is mercy

 

[Antvasima]

It's kind of crazy to say this when the most popular modern Hulk story ends on a hopeful note and the statement that the Hulk isn't the mindless rage monster that people see him as who was only created to be a force of pain and destruction. That he's just as capable of good and kindness as everyone else because all of us have two sides and it's up to us to choose to be kind and merciful and refuse the world's attempts to make that choice for you.

Yes, but the Hulk also has a long history of being portrayed as an anti-hero at best, and again, he started out by inventing more powerful nuclear weapons, so I do not much care for setting him up as some sort of ideal to strive towards.

However, the childlike Hulk is likely much nicer than the other versions, yes.

 

[ObberGobb]

Ok I'm thinking this in regards to Heralds:

Option 1: Everyone who scales to Thor scales to Yggdrasil. Heralds end up at probably High 1-B. This would be everyone currently 3-C or Low 1-C being upgraded to High 1-B.

Option 2: Same as above but we treat Yggdrasil as 2-A, and everyone becomes 2-A.

Option 3: High Heralds scale to Thor's Yggdrasil feat and will be High 1-B (Peak Thor, peak Hercules, peak Hulk, Thanos, Sentry, Kurse, Mangog, 2nd key Silver Surfer, maybe Ultron). Normal Heralds (Everyone currently Low 1-C or 3-C) scale to 2-A based on Eric Masterson's feat and hopefully some supplemental feats.

Option 4: Same as above, but if there are no other feats around 2-A, we might have to drop it. In this case, something in Tier 3 or even as low as Tier 4.


My thoughts on the scaling are that nobody should scale to feats done by characters like Thor, Hulk, Hercules, etc., but they should be able to scale to their normal states. So if we have statements of a character being on Thor's level, that would be treated as them scaling to Herald Tier. Characters who are explicitly and consistently more powerful than someone like Thor should either scale to his soon-to-be High 1-B Yggdrasil feats, or get a "possibly." I think Ultron falls into this category as to my knowledge, Thor has never so much as scratched him. Characters like Sentry and Thanos should be a flat High 1-B as not only are they shown to be more powerful than Thor, they also have feats against Skyfather Tier characters.

My thoughts on Thor's scaling have changed. For one, only one of his Yggdrasil feats is him in a "Beyond peak" state, the Worldengine feat. If even literal baby Thor scales to Yggdrasil, I don't think we have a reason to think he only scales to Yggdrasil at his peak. I also think he operates at "normal" Herald level 99% of the time. In Blood and Thunder, when he was shown to be vastly more powerful than Silver Surfer, Beta Ray Bill, and Adam Warlock even before getting the Power Gem amp, Sif thought his strength was amped 10x by Warrior's Madness. It wasn't, this is just how strong bloodlusted Thor is. This is important because it shows peak Thor is vastly above Herald Tier, but also that even Sif, a fellow god, had never seen him this strong before, so she judges Thor's strength to be comparable to those three.

I don't want to do a CRT yet, but I want to hear your thoughts on my thoughts so far.

 

[Antvasima]

Good post.

Option 2 seems best to me, or possibly option 4.

 

[Antvasima]

I think that I misunderstood ObberGob's post above. Basically, I think that Thor and the others genuinely on his level should preferably be tier 2-A, but that not remotely all heralds should scale to it, but given that 2-A is unlikely to be accepted, I still prefer High 1-B to 1-A if it is absolutely necessary, and I tried to adjust my answers accordingly in my last post here.

 

[ObberGobb]

I think that I misunderstood ObberGob's post. Basically, I think that Thor and the others genuinely on his level should preferably be tier 2-A, but that not remotely all heralds should scale to it, but given that 2-A is unlikely to be accepted, I still prefer High 1-B to 1-A if it is absolutely necessary, and I tried to adjust my answers accordingly in my last post here.

So basically you think Thor and some of the other characters I outlined should scale to Yggdrasil, and everyone else should scale to whatever feats we find for them? Would you prefer normal Heralds scaling to Yggdrasil, scaling to Eric Masterson's 2-A feat, or ending up at like 3-C or something?

 

[Antvasima]

So basically you think Thor and some of the other characters I outlined should scale to Yggdrasil, and everyone else should scale to whatever feats we find for them?

Yes, that is correct.

Would you prefer normal Heralds scaling to Yggdrasil, or normal Heralds ending up at like 3-C or something?

The latter, but it depends on what you find for them.

 

[ObberGobb]

Yes, that is correct.

The latter, but it depends on what you find for them.

My thought is that if Eric Masterson's feat is the only 2-A we should unfortunately drop it. There are a good number of Galaxy level feats I think, and maybe some Universal ones, but Ill have to look into it more.