Nanatsu no Taizai: Upgrade speed

[Demon_Lord18]

Flash​

Spoiler: Old OP

I propose categorizing Ludociel’s Flash as travel speed rather than general speed, since it’s stated that he moves at that velocity. This would be more consistent with what’s shown, as Ludociel has been intercepted at least twice while moving with Flash.

Here, while using Flash, he attempts to finish off Derieri and Monspiet, but midway he is intercepted by Diane in Drole’s body. Ludociel has fought opponents faster than Drole, yet he still fails to outpace Diane’s attack while traveling with Flash.

Ludociel uses this movement again to try to reach Zeldris before his magic returns to normal, but he’s intercepted by Cusack. Although Cusack was superior to Ludociel in combat speed, he was still comparable. We also see Ludociel face the Original Demon — a fusion of two characters faster than him — and still manage to match them in combat with his true body.

One could argue that Ludociel was using his combat speed when Cusack intercepted him, but that really doesn’t make sense. It would be like saying a fighter running toward an opponent is using combat speed — which clearly isn’t true.

Updating the OP to remove Flash’s light-speed claim, which invalidates that calculation — not that it worked properly to begin with.

Looking through some CRTs, I noticed that part of the staff opposes using editor’s notes that aren’t included in the final volume version. When reviewing other editor notes in Nanatsu no Taizai, it’s clear that they’re often exaggerated and don’t align with the actual story.

Fiddich is said to attack at light speed, but in the fanbook, his ability section only states that he cuts the enemy in an instant.

Cath is described as transcending the Gods, yet he’s damaged by characters on the level of 50% Demon King.

These notes also contain misinformation and contradictions. For example, one note claims the Supreme Deity cursed Elizabeth, but the manga states it was the Demon King — and a later note confirms it was the Demon King who cursed her.

Nakaba always includes the Q&A sections in the fanbooks, since they don’t make it into the final volume and could be lost over time. However, he’s never done that with any editor’s note, which casts doubt on how important they really are to him.

I propose removing the sol from Ludociel's profile based on the flash and keeping only the 'higher with flash'.

Ark​

It was accepted that the beam-shaped Ark is Sol, but not every beam is an Ark.

This attack that hits Derieri is not a beam-shaped Ark.

Reasons: It has a completely different invocation than Ludociel’s, where you can literally see the Ark in the attack. The only beam-shaped Ark we see doesn’t reflect off any material with skin, unlike the attack launched by Tarmiel.

The attack launched at King is clearly not an Ark — it’s a completely different ability, so I won’t waste time on it.

Based on that accepted calculations, I propose the following for Ludociel:

FTL+ (Superior to Post-Revival Demon Mark Meliodas), higher with Flash

Here is the scaling for the other characters.

Agree:​

Finepoint

Neutral:​

Disagree:​

 

[Zezu1995]

i agree but the ability fired at king is ark based you can see the shiny glitters from the start of the beam

 

[Jey-kun52]

Looks fire

 

[Faa_Tzy]

Will Ludociel's reaction speed and perception also become FTL+?

 

[Demon_Lord18]

Will Ludociel's reaction speed and perception also become FTL+?

Yes, but I don't think it would be necessary to put this in the profile.

 

[karo_senpaii]

Flash​

I propose categorizing Ludociel’s Flash as travel speed rather than general speed, since it’s stated that he moves at that velocity. This would be more consistent with what’s shown, as Ludociel has been intercepted at least twice while moving with Flash.

Here, while using Flash, he attempts to finish off Derieri and Monspiet, but midway he is intercepted by Diane in Drole’s body. Ludociel has fought opponents faster than Drole, yet he still fails to outpace Diane’s attack while traveling with Flash.

Ludociel uses this movement again to try to reach Zeldris before his magic returns to normal, but he’s intercepted by Cusack. Although Cusack was superior to Ludociel in combat speed, he was still comparable. We also see Ludociel face the Original Demon — a fusion of two characters faster than him — and still manage to match them in combat with his true body.

One could argue that Ludociel was using his combat speed when Cusack intercepted him, but that really doesn’t make sense. It would be like saying a fighter running toward an opponent is using combat speed — which clearly isn’t true.

It was accepted that the beam-shaped Ark is Sol, but not every beam is an Ark.

This attack that hits Derieri is not a beam-shaped Ark.

Reasons: It has a completely different invocation than Ludociel’s, where you can literally see the Ark in the attack. The only beam-shaped Ark we see doesn’t reflect off any material with skin, unlike the attack launched by Tarmiel.

The attack launched at King is clearly not an Ark — it’s a completely different ability, so I won’t waste time on it.

Based on these two accepted calculations, I propose the following for Ludociel:

FTL+ combat speed (Superior to Post-Revival Demon Mark Meliodas), Speed of Light travel speed with Flash

Here is the scaling for the other characters.

You'd have to do a better argument than this. Basically you're saying "it must be travel speed because if it is combat speed it make no sense for other characters to intercept him"

You're ignoring the fact that it's not hard for rel or rel+ characters to intercept sol characters and also that's not how we index travel speed. Travel speed is Indexed based on either a statement or a feat. For example if a character runs round the earth in a second, he has rel travel speed, or he crosses a city in a second he has like hypersonic travel speed. If a character is stated to move at the speed of sound or light, we don't assume that it is travel speed unless he actually shows feats of doing such. We've never seen ludociel use flash to cross great distances to warrant travel speed.



There's a bigger problem here which is the narrative. Graces are given by the supreme deity to be absolute and their trump cards in combat. Sariel and tarmiel have their spaces and mael has his sun. These are all trump cards that help them instantly turn the tide against characters that might be evenly matched with them prior. They are clearly meant for combat. The supreme deity suddenly giving ludociel a grace that is useless in combat and only used to travel makes no sense. If ludociel is ftl+ his grace is useless, he'd never even use it in combat. Sorry being almost 20 times faster than your trump card used in battle just makes no sense

 

[Damage3245]

There's a bigger problem here which is the narrative. Graces are giving by the supreme deity to be absolute and their trump cards in combat. Sariel and tarmiel have their spaces and meal has his sun. These are all trump cards that help them instantly turn the tide against characters that might be evenly matched with them prior. They are clearly meant for combat. The supreme deity suddenly giving ludociel a grace that is useless in combat and only used to travel makes no sense. If ludociel is ftl+ his grace is useless, he'd never even use it in combat. Sorry being almost 20 times faster than your trump card used in battle just makes no sense

I do think that this is a good point that needs consideration here.

 

[Jey-kun52]

I do think that this is a good point that needs consideration here.

Light is not something that can be used on its own. In combat, you can neither create a collision with its mass, nor can you create a barrier, nor can you emit enough heat to melt weapons. I think it is a feature that has not been thought through with much care. Assuming that all goddesses can use light, they cannot only travel at the speed of light. Their external attacks can only reach the speed of light. Even the lowest rank ones can already attack at the speed of light, except for the grace. I think the grace, which is described as something superior, should be more comprehensive.

 

[Demon_Lord18]

You're ignoring the fact that it's not hard for rel or rel+ characters to intercept sol characters

You can't start behind and still catch up to a sol character by being just rel+

There's a bigger problem here which is the narrative. Graces are given by the supreme deity to be absolute and their trump cards in combat. Sariel and tarmiel have their spaces and mael has his sun. These are all trump cards that help them instantly turn the tide against characters that might be evenly matched with them prior. They are clearly meant for combat. The supreme deity suddenly giving ludociel a grace that is useless in combat and only used to travel makes no sense. If ludociel is ftl+ his grace is useless, he'd never even use it in combat. Sorry being almost 20 times faster than your trump card used in battle just makes no sense

Ludociel’s Flash doesn’t just grant him speed. The Graces give Archangels abilities to face the Commandments, such as immunity to their curses and even immortality. Ludociel used a Flash technique that was supposed to burn Zeldris — it’s not limited to speed. That said, I understand your point.

I’ll update the Flash section to remove it, since I’ve noticed many team members are against editor’s notes (which is where the Ludociel quote comes from), and those notes in Seven Deadly Sins have proven to be exaggerated at times.

 

[Demon_Lord18]

I do think that this is a good point that needs consideration here.

I’ve updated the CRT. Do you have any thoughts on it?

 

[karo_senpaii]

Flash​

Spoiler: Old OP

I propose categorizing Ludociel’s Flash as travel speed rather than general speed, since it’s stated that he moves at that velocity. This would be more consistent with what’s shown, as Ludociel has been intercepted at least twice while moving with Flash.

Here, while using Flash, he attempts to finish off Derieri and Monspiet, but midway he is intercepted by Diane in Drole’s body. Ludociel has fought opponents faster than Drole, yet he still fails to outpace Diane’s attack while traveling with Flash.

Ludociel uses this movement again to try to reach Zeldris before his magic returns to normal, but he’s intercepted by Cusack. Although Cusack was superior to Ludociel in combat speed, he was still comparable. We also see Ludociel face the Original Demon — a fusion of two characters faster than him — and still manage to match them in combat with his true body.

One could argue that Ludociel was using his combat speed when Cusack intercepted him, but that really doesn’t make sense. It would be like saying a fighter running toward an opponent is using combat speed — which clearly isn’t true.

Updating the OP to remove Flash’s light-speed claim, which invalidates that calculation — not that it worked properly to begin with.

Looking through some CRTs, I noticed that part of the staff opposes using editor’s notes that aren’t included in the final volume version. When reviewing other editor notes in Nanatsu no Taizai, it’s clear that they’re often exaggerated and don’t align with the actual story.

Fiddich is said to attack at light speed, but in the fanbook, his ability section only states that he cuts the enemy in an instant.

Cath is described as transcending the Gods, yet he’s damaged by characters on the level of 50% Demon King.

These notes also contain misinformation and contradictions. For example, one note claims the Supreme Deity cursed Elizabeth, but the manga states it was the Demon King — and a later note confirms it was the Demon King who cursed her.

Nakaba always includes the Q&A sections in the fanbooks, since they don’t make it into the final volume and could be lost over time. However, he’s never done that with any editor’s note, which casts doubt on how important they really are to him.

I propose removing the sol from Ludociel's profile based on the flash and keeping only the 'higher with flash'.

Ark​

It was accepted that the beam-shaped Ark is Sol, but not every beam is an Ark.

This attack that hits Derieri is not a beam-shaped Ark.

Reasons: It has a completely different invocation than Ludociel’s, where you can literally see the Ark in the attack. The only beam-shaped Ark we see doesn’t reflect off any material with skin, unlike the attack launched by Tarmiel.

The attack launched at King is clearly not an Ark — it’s a completely different ability, so I won’t waste time on it.

Based on that accepted calculations, I propose the following for Ludociel:

FTL+ (Superior to Post-Revival Demon Mark Meliodas), higher with Flash

Here is the scaling for the other characters.

Agree:​

Neutral:​

Disagree:​

You didn't update it properly. Like there was great pain done to upgrade ludociel to sol, you're supposed to do a CRT to remove that first. You also didn't post scans to show flash speed was removed in the final volume or something.

Also I disagree with the speed scaling.
1.. base Mel isn't superior to drole, he's superior to a heavily injured drole who was just almost wiped out by escanor. They also can clearly fight him in his enlarged demon mark mode. They should all be scaling to 1c tbh. Base Mel should be 0.25c.

2. What's fiddich and gowther doing in the scaling? assuming gowther remained stagnant in speed is very bad, especially since you believe the sins are a challenge for Arthur now considering not a while ago gowther was nowhere near the god tiers.

So for now the scaling chain is still 2c ludociel and it goes upward from there.


But here's my question for you.

How did you establish these former characters scaling to Diane?
like she's is quite superior to most of the people in the blog. The person she was fighting was mael, not just mael but 4 commandments mael who is faster and stronger than anyone on that blog save for true form ludociel and maybe just normal ludociel. You're also the one that pointed out that her and king could keep up with ludociel when they were sent back in time. Sure they can still be slower but not by that much

 

[Apex_Predator_GX]

OP looks fine to me.

 

[Demon_Lord18]

You didn't update it properly. Like there was great pain done to upgrade ludociel to sol, you're supposed to do a CRT to remove that first.

I think this can be done here

I will only be able to answer the rest when I get back from the hospital.

 

[Demon_Lord18]

Also I disagree with the speed scaling.
1.. base Mel isn't superior to drole, he's superior to a heavily injured drole who was just almost wiped out by escanor. They also can clearly fight him in his enlarged demon mark mode. They should all be scaling to 1c tbh. Base Mel should be 0.25c.

He wasn't seriously injured. Even so, that wouldn't have slowed his reaction time — we see that Meliodas is faster than him even in his base form. When Meliodas ripped off his four arms, at no point in the fight is it implied that the injuries affected his physical abilities.

Meliodas in Demon Mark mode completely overwhelmed him; Drole stood no chance. Drole implies that Meliodas wasn't going all out

To me, it doesn't make sense to scale Drole based on someone he only touched twice throughout the entire fight — and that only happened when Meliodas was focused on Gloxinia. Because when Meliodas turned his attention to Drole, Drole couldn't escape or stall him.

You also didn't post scans to show flash speed was removed in the final volume or something.

Here

How did you establish these former characters scaling to Diane?
like she's is quite superior to most of the people in the blog. The person she was fighting was mael, not just mael but 4 commandments mael who is faster and stronger than anyone on that blog save for true form ludociel and maybe just normal ludociel. You're also the one that pointed out that her and king could keep up with ludociel when they were sent back in time. Sure they can still be slower but not by that much

She wasn't fighting Mael; the attack came from his cocoon.

It was Diane in her base form who was intercepting the light attacks. Her strongest version is when she uses Drole's Dance. That Diane is comparable to base Drole. That's why all these characters are being scaled based on her.

Melascula can easily dodge some of Diane's attacks, even though she's one of the weaker Commandments.

So for now the scaling chain is still 2c ludociel and it goes upward from there.

If that Meliodas were only 1c in his Demon Mark form, Ludociel would still be 4c.

edit: I think I won't be able to answer tomorrow.

 

[karo_senpaii]

He wasn't seriously injured. Even so, that wouldn't have slowed his reaction time — we see that Meliodas is faster than him even in his base form. When Meliodas ripped off his four arms, at no point in the fight is it implied that the injuries affected his physical abilities.

That's blood all over his body. He was struck with magic equal to estarossa. He was 100% seriously injured. A statement saying his combat abilities were reduced isn't necessary. We know for certain that he wasn't at full capacity, that's enough.

Meliodas in Demon Mark mode completely overwhelmed him; Drole stood no chance. Drole implies that Meliodas wasn't going all out

To me, it doesn't make sense to scale Drole based on someone he only touched twice throughout the entire fight — and that only happened when Meliodas was focused on Gloxinia. Because when Meliodas turned his attention to Drole, Drole couldn't escape or stall him.

Drole always tagged him with the power of earth, his attack speed , which is also giants greatest strength. Gloxinna could also keep up fine with him. They are all comparable to some point at least in speed. They weren't trying to escape, they probably knew the other commandments would come. Not like they had the strength too either way

Here

She wasn't fighting Mael; the attack came from his cocoon.

Yeah same thing. Those stuff are much more superior to anything we've seen from the angels prior

It was Diane in her base form who was intercepting the light attacks. Her strongest version is when she uses Drole's Dance. That Diane is comparable to base Drole. That's why all these characters are being scaled based on her.

Her strength is comparable to drole using the power of earth. Idk how you got speed there.

Melascula can easily dodge some of Diane's attacks, even though she's one of the weaker Commandments.

Melascula is the weakest commandment in terms of pure strength and that's it. You can't judge like that, she also has something no commandment can break unless it's zeldris himself, if she has great speed feats then she's faster than most of them. You've forgotten some of the commandents like derierei couldn't even dodge ark

If that Meliodas were only 1c in his Demon Mark form, Ludociel would still be 4c.

edit: I think I won't be able to answer tomorrow.

That's not my main point. You've used Diana and gloxinna being able to keep up with Ludociel to an extent as an argument for an upgrade, now you've switched and want to make ludociel 16x times faster? That immediately makes that feat impossible to happen unless if they are not that much slower or only a bit slower? Show consistency

 

[Demon_Lord18]

That's blood all over his body. He was struck with magic equal to estarossa. He was 100% seriously injured. A statement saying his combat abilities were reduced isn't necessary. We know for certain that he wasn't at full capacity, that's enough.

Meliodas, extremely exhausted and wounded after fighting several characters of equal strength and taking a combined attack from them, still managed to keep up with Gilthunder and fight evenly against Hendrickson infused with Red Demon blood. Whether Drole injured or not isn't affecting the battle.

Drole always tagged him with the power of earth, his attack speed , which is also giants greatest strength. Gloxinna could also keep up fine with him. They are all comparable to some point at least in speed. They weren't trying to escape, they probably knew the other commandments would come. Not like they had the strength too either way

I was talking about dodging Meliodas attacks, not fleeing the battle. We can see that Drole couldn't do anything against Meliodas's Demon Mark when Meliodas was focused on him, even Meliodas while using only his base form. Gloxinia proved to be faster than Drole.

Yeah same thing. Those stuff are much more superior to anything we've seen from the angels prior

Diane didn't engage him directly and casually dodged Cocoon's attacks, while Estarossa himself, with one commandment, was stronger than that same Diane.

Her strength is comparable to drole using the power of earth. Idk how you got speed there.

Characters with equal strength have always had equal speed; there's no reason for it to be any different here.

Melascula is the weakest commandment in terms of pure strength and that's it. You can't judge like that, she also has something no commandment can break unless it's zeldris himself, if she has great speed feats then she's faster than most of them. You've forgotten some of the commandents like derierei couldn't even dodge ark

Ark already appears directly on the target; Derieri not being able to dodge it is nothing unusual.

That's not my main point. You've used Diana and gloxinna being able to keep up with Ludociel to an extent as an argument for an upgrade, now you've switched and want to make ludociel 16x times faster? That immediately makes that feat impossible to happen unless if they are not that much slower or only a bit slower? Show consistency

I never tried to scale Drole and Gloxinia to Ludociel's level; that was just to show that Flash was slower than Ludociel's combat speed. However, looking back, that wasn't a strong argument, since it could've simply been Drole's attack speed.

 

[karo_senpaii]

Meliodas, extremely exhausted and wounded after fighting several characters of equal strength and taking a combined attack from them, still managed to keep up with Gilthunder and fight evenly against Hendrickson infused with Red Demon blood. Whether Drole injured or not isn't affecting the battle.

It's because Mel is just simply that guy. Like buddy he's superior to all of them in every way that's why they teamed up. Mel power level is significantly higher than hendrikson normally. It's not a shock that even while not at full strength he could keep up fine.

When Elizabeth healed him completely he could keep up with grey demon hendrikson in speed with no difficulty at all, he just couldn't damage him. I don't need to explain the ridiculous gap between this hendrikson and the one with demon blood.

I'm not even sure why this needs explanation, it should be common sense, the more you're injured, the less capable you'll be fighting physically.

I was talking about dodging Meliodas attacks, not fleeing the battle. We can see that Drole couldn't do anything against Meliodas's Demon Mark when Meliodas was focused on him, even Meliodas while using only his base form. Gloxinia proved to be faster than Drole.

Actually even in demon mark drole tagged him severally with his earth magic, which is like his main combat style..

Diane didn't engage him directly and casually dodged Cocoon's attacks, while Estarossa himself, with one commandment, was stronger than that same Diane.

He's stronger than her sure but he has no speed advantage over her.

Characters with equal strength have always had equal speed; there's no reason for it to be any different here.

That's just completely wrong. Mel strength wasn't even close to grey demon hendrikson yet he could keep up fine in speed, chandler and chusack could hardly be damaged until Merlin amplified their weaknesses yet ludociel is superior to them in speed. I can keep going on but it's not necessarily because that assumption has never been true for any fictional series ever

Ark already appears directly on the target; Derieri not being able to dodge it is nothing unusual.

it's not like omega arc itself has a certain speed, that point was to show that among the commandents there is speed disparity and it doesn't necessarily mean you're on a certain speed level if you can fight archangels

I never tried to scale Drole and Gloxinia to Ludociel's level; that was just to show that Flash was slower than Ludociel's combat speed. However, looking back, that wasn't a strong argument, since it could've simply been Drole's attack speed.

That scene is a combat speed scene and not a travel speed scene. Gloxinna and drole are definitely not getting blitz by ludociel. Also even if it's attack speed it still proves my point. There's no ridiculous speed difference going on there

 

[Demon_Lord18]

It's because Mel is just simply that guy. Like buddy he's superior to all of them in every way that's why they teamed up. Mel power level is significantly higher than hendrikson normally. It's not a shock that even while not at full strength he could keep up fine.

Dude... It's said that they're on the same level as Meliodas. All of them can keep up with a fully rested Meliodas and, at times, even surpass him.

When Elizabeth healed him completely he could keep up with grey demon hendrikson in speed with no difficulty at all, he just couldn't damage him. I don't need to explain the ridiculous gap between this hendrikson and the one with demon blood.

He definitely can't keep up with Hendrickson. All he does in the fight is tried to hold Hendrickson back so he doesn't attack the others while they're getting hit. Meanwhile, Hendrickson is distracted, thinking about something else, as he casually defends Meliodas's attacks.

Actually even in demon mark drole tagged him severally with his earth magic, which is like his main combat style..

He only hits Meliodas twice, and that only happens when Meliodas is focused on Gloxinia. Gloxinia manages to dodge and escape some of Meliodas's attacks, while Drole gets hit by all of them.

He's stronger than her sure but he has no speed advantage over her.
That's just completely wrong. Mel strength wasn't even close to grey demon hendrikson yet he could keep up fine in speed, chandler and chusack could hardly be damaged until Merlin amplified their weaknesses yet ludociel is superior to them in speed. I can keep going on but it's not necessarily because that assumption has never been true for any fictional series ever

Power levels in Nanatsu no Taizai consist of three attributes, with magic and strength directly affecting speed — as shown multiple times. It's even possible to convert magic into strength, which measures a person's physical capabilities, not just raw power. Characters with similar power levels or strength are comparable to each other. That's always been the case in Nanatsu no Taizai, and I don't care how it's handled in the rest of fiction.

Spoiler: Feats

Here are feats that show magic and strength scaling into physical attributes like speed.

before Ban stole half of Galand's strength, he was constantly being overtaken by Galand. But when Ban steals half of Galand's strength, he, who couldn't compete with Galand, started to keep up with him. The same happens when he steals Meliodas' strength: Ban gets faster while Meliodas gets weaker and slower.

Highlighting Melascula’s statement, where she refers to combat class to claim that Ban was superior to Galand. She also says that if she stole Galand’s entire strength attribute, he would be left immobile.

Galand is able to convert magic into physical attributes. When he does this, he claims he could fight Meliodas — who had previously dominated him completely.

Demon King; before, he was overpowered by base Meliodas, but upon gaining more darkness, he easily surpassed base Meliodas. Upon gaining even more darkness, he easily surpassed Meliodas's amplified mark.

When Tristan lost his magic, he was extremely exhausted and could barely move, showing that the lack of magic directly affects speed.

Characters with equal or greater power than others should scale to them, unless there are anti-feats preventing it. A statement confirming equal strength is more than enough to justify speed scaling in Nanatsu no Taizai.

Meliodas is slower than ash Hendrickson.

Cusack and Chandler are comparable to Ludociel in both strength and speed, what are you even talking about?

it's not like omega arc itself has a certain speed, that point was to show that among the commandents there is speed disparity and it doesn't necessarily mean you're on a certain speed level if you can fight archangels

The only Commandment who fled was one of the slowest on the battlefield.

That scene is a combat speed scene and not a travel speed scene. Gloxinna and drole are definitely not getting blitz by ludociel. Also even if it's attack speed it still proves my point. There's no ridiculous speed difference going on there

That’s exactly what I said: that wasn’t Ludociel’s travel speed. I never claimed that Drole and Gloxinia were being attacked by Ludociel. This doesn’t prove your point. The fact that Drole has attack speed comparable to Ludociel means nothing — it only shows that his attack speed is higher than his combat speed. I was rereading the chapter: Ludociel launched from the top of the trees, which are comparable to Grace Light and over 2 km tall. He definitely covered a much greater distance than Drole.

I don't know why I have to keep debating things that are already accepted and listed in the profiles.

 

[karo_senpaii]

Dude... It's said that they're on the same level as Meliodas. All of them can keep up with a fully rested Meliodas and, at times, even surpass him.

Captain level ≠ Captain. All commandments are commandment level but their strength varies.
Also Mel is clearly holding back in season 1. He said it when he split the hill with a twig and he also held back to save veronica

He definitely can't keep up with Hendrickson. All he does in the fight is tried to hold Hendrickson back so he doesn't attack the others while they're getting hit. Meanwhile, Hendrickson is distracted, thinking about something else, as he casually defends Meliodas's attacks.

He can't keep up in strength and not speed. The mere fact that he can hold hendrikson back is proof of keeping up in speed.

He only hits Meliodas twice, and that only happens when Meliodas is focused on Gloxinia. Gloxinia manages to dodge and escape some of Meliodas's attacks, while Drole gets hit by all of them.

No, Mel made it specifically that the 2 are never fighting him at once because he knew he would loose at that point. He was distracted, he was fully aware and still got hit.

Power levels in Nanatsu no Taizai consist of three attributes, with magic and strength directly affecting speed — as shown multiple times. It's even possible to convert magic into strength, which measures a person's physical capabilities, not just raw power. Characters with similar power levels or strength are comparable to each other. That's always been the case in Nanatsu no Taizai, and I don't care how it's handled in the rest of fiction.

Spoiler: Feats

Here are feats that show magic and strength scaling into physical attributes like speed.

before Ban stole half of Galand's strength, he was constantly being overtaken by Galand. But when Ban steals half of Galand's strength, he, who couldn't compete with Galand, started to keep up with him. The same happens when he steals Meliodas' strength: Ban gets faster while Meliodas gets weaker and slower.

Highlighting Melascula’s statement, where she refers to combat class to claim that Ban was superior to Galand. She also says that if she stole Galand’s entire strength attribute, he would be left immobile.

Galand is able to convert magic into physical attributes. When he does this, he claims he could fight Meliodas — who had previously dominated him completely.

Demon King; before, he was overpowered by base Meliodas, but upon gaining more darkness, he easily surpassed base Meliodas. Upon gaining even more darkness, he easily surpassed Meliodas's amplified mark.

When Tristan lost his magic, he was extremely exhausted and could barely move, showing that the lack of magic directly affects speed.

Characters with equal or greater power than others should scale to them, unless there are anti-feats preventing it. A statement confirming equal strength is more than enough to justify speed scaling in Nanatsu no Taizai.

Spoiler: Feats

This entire yap session is not worthy of my time and is just wrong.

Meliodas is slower than ash Hendrickson.

Cusack and Chandler are comparable to Ludociel in both strength and speed, what are you even talking about?

Vessel ludociel could not harm a hair on the both of them

The only Commandment who fled was one of the slowest on the battlefield.

Mospeet is slow?

That’s exactly what I said: that wasn’t Ludociel’s travel speed. I never claimed that Drole and Gloxinia were being attacked by Ludociel. This doesn’t prove your point. The fact that Drole has attack speed comparable to Ludociel means nothing — it only shows that his attack speed is higher than his combat speed. I was rereading the chapter: Ludociel launched from the top of the trees, which are comparable to Grace Light and over 2 km tall. He definitely covered a much greater distance than Drole.

I don't know why I have to keep debating things that are already accepted and listed in the profiles.

You're arguing things on profiles because you're making a very bizarre upgrade.

You started this thread by saying that gloxinna and drole were able to react fine to Ludociel and it doesn't make any sense so it must be travel speed, I corrected you that they can be slower and still react , you immediately changed you stance and said uhhn flash doesn't have a certain speed and actually Ludociel is 16c, I'm now bringing it back to you that you who initially thought that drole and gloxinna are fast enough to react to Ludociel, you now want to make him 16 times faster than them? This is a very messy upgrade that clearly doesn't even give a shit about accuracy.

Are you changing it now to drole is 1c but his attack speed is 16c? Which means you'd be making Mel pre purgatory who was able to dodge some of his attacks 16c? But wait that Mel is actually 4c. Are you actually thinking about the impact of your upgrades?

 

[Demon_Lord18]

Captain level ≠ Captain. All commandments are commandment level but their strength varies.
Also Mel is clearly holding back in season 1. He said it when he split the hill with a twig and he also held back to save veronica

In the first season, Meliodas was at Great Holy Knights level. He wasn’t holding back at that time, man. He doesn’t even say he’s holding back for Veronica. In fact, he doesn’t even talk to her.

He can't keep up in strength and not speed. The mere fact that he can hold hendrikson back is proof of keeping up in speed.

No. And based on how the fight went, Meliodas wouldn’t need to be anywhere near Hendrickson in speed to do what he did.

No, Mel made it specifically that the 2 are never fighting him at once because he knew he would loose at that point. He was distracted, he was fully aware and still got hit.

So what? That doesn't change anything. Drole is still inferior to Meliodas. Meliodas just didn’t attack earlier because he wouldn’t have been able to defeat both of them in a 2v1 from the start. In fact, throughout the entire fight, one of them was always down. This is stated in the manga.

This entire yap session is not worthy of my time and is just wrong.

LMAO

Vessel ludociel could not harm a hair on the both of them

Just like he was slower than both of them, the point still stands.

Mospeet is slow?

Galand was the only one who escaped. Monspiet probably used his ability to switch places with something.

You're arguing things on profiles because you're making a very bizarre upgrade.

You started this thread by saying that gloxinna and drole were able to react fine to Ludociel and it doesn't make any sense so it must be travel speed, I corrected you that they can be slower and still react , you immediately changed you stance and said uhhn flash doesn't have a certain speed and actually Ludociel is 16c, I'm now bringing it back to you that you who initially thought that drole and gloxinna are fast enough to react to Ludociel, you now want to make him 16 times faster than them? This is a very messy upgrade that clearly doesn't even give a shit about accuracy.

Are you changing it now to drole is 1c but his attack speed is 16c? Which means you'd be making Mel pre purgatory who was able to dodge some of his attacks 16c? But wait that Mel is actually 4c. Are you actually thinking about the impact of your upgrades?

I think you're just replying because you don't like the verse, not actually reading what's being said, lol.


I never tried to scale Drole to Ludociel. The CRT literally said that Flash Ludociel couldn’t be limited to light speed because, while he was flying toward Derieri, he got hit by Drole. Even though he clearly outclassed him in combat. That was never about scaling Drole to Ludociel. Both then and now, Drole is 1c and Ludociel is 16c in Margaret’s body.


Anyway, I’d be satisfied if you could show Meliodas dodging Drole’s attacks. And it’s funny how you’re just ignoring the fact that Ludociel was starting from a much greater distance. just so your argument makes sense (which I already pointed out in my last reply).


Just to be clear, my original take was this:
Ludociel: FTL+ combat speed, Speed of Light travel with Flash.

 

[karo_senpaii]

In the first season, Meliodas was at Great Holy Knights level. He wasn’t holding back at that time, man. He doesn’t even say he’s holding back for Veronica. In fact, he doesn’t even talk to her.

Meliodas was well stronger than even the great holy knights at it couldn't be made more abundantly clear just based on his power level. The mere fact that hendrikson called for help and it required 3 people to fight Mel couldn't make it more abundantly clear.

No. And based on how the fight went, Meliodas wouldn’t need to be anywhere near Hendrickson in speed to do what he did.

He actually needed to. Hendrikson first rushed at everyone and immediately tried to kill them when Liz healed everyone. He immediately intercepted him and pushed him back before encouraging everyone and telling them of his plan.

So what? That doesn't change anything. Drole is still inferior to Meliodas. Meliodas just didn’t attack earlier because he wouldn’t have been able to defeat both of them in a 2v1 from the start. In fact, throughout the entire fight, one of them was always down. This is stated in the manga.

If he's 4 times faster than them, considering how superior he was to them strength wise, he should be able to even take on 4, of them at once

LMAO

Just like he was slower than both of them, the point still stands.

What ? Ludociel was in no way slower than chandler or chusack

Galand was the only one who escaped. Monspiet probably used his ability to switch places with something.

Gaaland escaped coz he senses something ahead of time, monspiet is just head canon since he needs to replace with someone of similar proportion to him which was not present. Also derierei escaped

I think you're just replying because you don't like the verse, not actually reading what's being said, lol.

Sure bro

I never tried to scale Drole to Ludociel. The CRT literally said that Flash Ludociel couldn’t be limited to light speed because, while he was flying toward Derieri, he got hit by Drole. Even though he clearly outclassed him in combat. That was never about scaling Drole to Ludociel. Both then and now, Drole is 1c and Ludociel is 16c in Margaret’s body.

You did try to scale them. You acknowledge that their speeds are similar. But for some reason you couldn't fully come to terms with that fact and you instead came up with your own headcanon that "flash" is light speed and ludociel is actually much faster than his grace

Anyway, I’d be satisfied if you could show Meliodas dodging Drole’s attacks. And it’s funny how you’re just ignoring the fact that Ludociel was starting from a much greater distance. just so your argument makes sense (which I already pointed out in my last reply).

Meliodas dodged some of his initial rocks before some hit him.
Just so know. Drole attack isn't thought based, he'd have to end up having >ftl+ reactions for being able to activate it in time. This brings back the problem of pre purgatory Mel scaling

Just to be clear, my original take was this:
Ludociel: FTL+ combat speed, Speed of Light travel with Flash.

The take now and then has and will always be dumb. Ludociel can't be 16x faster than his ultimate technique, the one that he is so proud of and superior in everyone else with. You know that and you knew it would immediately make your arguments go up in smoke so you tried to mask your stance and say "flash doesn't have a set speed".

Based on your current arguments flash would still be superior to Ludociel normal combat speed which is ftl+. Which means ludociel used an ultimate technique superior to his combat speed and got intercepted by gloxinia and drole

 

[Jey-kun52]

Meliodas did this with his demon mark

I dont understand why you adapted the scaling to 16c. Arent we basing our scale on Cusacks calcs?

 

[Demon_Lord18]

Meliodas was well stronger than even the great holy knights at it couldn't be made more abundantly clear just based on his power level. The mere fact that hendrikson called for help and it required 3 people to fight Mel couldn't make it more abundantly clear.

That’s not true. Hendrickson was able to block and dodge some of Meliodas’s attacks. Gilthunder held his own 1v1 against Meliodas for a large part of the time, and the fight was even between them.

He actually needed to. Hendrikson first rushed at everyone and immediately tried to kill them when Liz healed everyone. He immediately intercepted him and pushed him back before encouraging everyone and telling them of his plan.

He did that with his demon mark.

If he's 4 times faster than them, considering how superior he was to them strength wise, he should be able to even take on 4, of them at once

That’s not how it works. Gloxinia was faster than Drole (this is evident in the fight). And again, Drole implied that Meliodas was holding back; when he was about to kill them, the Commandments arrived.

What ? Ludociel was in no way slower than chandler or chusack

Did you see the linked scan? Ludociel didn’t even realize he had received several cuts on his body.

Gaaland escaped coz he senses something ahead of time, monspiet is just head canon since he needs to replace with someone of similar proportion to him which was not present. Also derierei escaped

You’re saying it’s possible to escape from the Ark, even though no one has ever done it before, not even when someone stayed inside it for a long time. It’s much more likely that Monspiet took them out with his ability than that they somehow managed to get out of the Ark on their own. It’s also worth noting that Monspiet was touching Fraudrin and Derieri, which supports the idea that he was the one who pulled them out.

You did try to scale them. You acknowledge that their speeds are similar. But for some reason you couldn't fully come to terms with that fact and you instead came up with your own headcanon that "flash" is light speed and ludociel is actually much faster than his grace

Flash isn’t lightspeed, man. Are you stuck in the past? This isn’t even being debated anymore.

Meliodas dodged some of his initial rocks before some hit him.

No

Just so know. Drole attack isn't thought based, he'd have to end up having >ftl+ reactions for being able to activate it in time. This brings back the problem of pre purgatory Mel scaling

You ignored the scan and what I wrote in the previous message. Drole doesn’t scale to Ludociel in either attack speed or reaction speed, because when I reread the chapter I realized this:

I was rereading the chapter: Ludociel launched from the top of the trees, which are comparable to Grace Light and over 2 km tall. He definitely covered a much greater distance than Drole.

Drole doesn’t get any speed scaling from intercepting Flash

Ludociel can't be 16x faster than his ultimate technique, the one that he is so proud of and superior in everyone else with. You know that and you knew it would immediately make your arguments go up in smoke so you tried to mask your stance and say "flash doesn't have a set speed".

You should prove that Flash is lightspeed instead of just saying it’s wrong because you want it to be.

Based on your current arguments flash would still be superior to Ludociel normal combat speed which is ftl+. Which means ludociel used an ultimate technique superior to his combat speed and got intercepted by gloxinia and drole

Based on both the current and earlier arguments, Drole does not scale to Ludociel.

 

[Demon_Lord18]

I dont understand why you adapted the scaling to 16c. Arent we basing our scale on Cusacks calcs?

Read the OP

 

[Imaginym]

I was asked to comment here.
Not very familiar with Nanatsu no Taizai. I'll wait for others to input on the topics of this debate.

 

[Demon_Lord18]

I was asked to comment here.
Not very familiar with Nanatsu no Taizai. I'll wait for others to input on the topics of this debate.

I believe we won’t have any more debates beyond the ones we’ve already had. Based on the comments already made, could you give your opinion?

 

[Imaginym]

I believe we won’t have any more debates beyond the ones we’ve already had. Based on the comments already made, could you give your opinion?

Unfortunately, due to my unfamiliarity with the verse, attempting to read the arguments, which are somewhat extensive, I'm not sure I understand the substance of the topic of the debate enough to weigh in. Perhaps a summary of the sides of the debate may help, but I'm not sure.
So again, I'd say that I'd prefer to wait for others to input on the topics of this debate.

 

[Demon_Lord18]

I do think that this is a good point that needs consideration here.

Could we get your opinion here? Since you are an experienced member of the verse, it would be of great help.

 

[Demon_Lord18]

Bump

 

[Cursed_Copycat]

Bump

Yo, i’m a new member on here and was considering if you could either make yourself/help me make a content revision upgrade page with the recent manga statements that should upscale the Lady of the Lake, by extension Chaos/Arthur/Cath, Lancelot, and Meliodas (potentially trickling down to others.) The statements of the Lady having an infinite realm full of “water” (her condensed magic) and that being where Lancelot’s ‘boundless’ magic comes from according to Arthur, and her statement of Chaos creating it all. (I don’t know how to hyperlink scans onto words like others here do, sorry)

 

[Demon_Lord18]

Yo, i’m a new member on here and was considering if you could either make yourself/help me make a content revision upgrade page with the recent manga statements that should upscale the Lady of the Lake, by extension Chaos/Arthur/Cath, Lancelot, and Meliodas (potentially trickling down to others.) The statements of the Lady having an infinite realm full of “water” (her condensed magic) and that being where Lancelot’s ‘boundless’ magic comes from according to Arthur, and her statement of Chaos creating it all. (I don’t know how to hyperlink scans onto words like others here do, sorry)

Actually, I was already planning to do that, but I intend to wait until the end of the arc to release the CRT. Do you have Discord?

 

[Dooyo]

Looks fine to me.

 

[Demon_Lord18]

Bump

 

[Demon_Lord18]

Bump

 

[FinePoint]

Could someone provide a summary of who supports what here, and why?

I read the debate, but it's very context-heavy and I'm not familiar with the verse, so I'm a bit lost.

 

[Demon_Lord18]

Could someone provide a summary of who supports what here, and why?

I read the debate, but it's very context-heavy and I'm not familiar with the verse, so I'm a bit lost.

Perhaps a summary of the sides of the debate may help

I hope this helps

Spoiler: Summary

Karo Senpai argues that since Drole was injured, his speed was affected:

base Mel isn’t superior to Drole, but rather to a heavily injured Drole who had just been nearly wiped out by Escanor

I argue that this doesn’t interfere with speed, using other examples from the manga:

Meliodas, extremely exhausted and wounded after fighting several characters of equal strength and taking a combined attack from them, still managed to keep up with Gilthunder and fight evenly against Hendrickson infused with Red Demon blood. Whether Drole injured or not isn't affecting the battle.

He says that Meliodas was superior to them, and that’s why even when tired he was still equal in speed:

It's because Mel is just simply that guy. Like buddy he's superior to all of them in every way that's why they teamed up. Mel power level is significantly higher than hendrikson normally. It's not a shock that even while not at full strength he could keep up fine.

I show that they were able to keep up with Meliodas while he was still rested.

Dude... It's said that they're on the same level as Meliodas. All of them can keep up with a fully rested Meliodas and, at times, even surpass him.

Here, Karo is arguing that Drole should scale to Enlarged Demon Mark Meliodas

They also can clearly fight him in his enlarged demon mark mode. They should all be scaling to 1c tbh. Base Mel should be 0.25c.

I argue that Drole shouldn’t scale since he was overpowered.

Meliodas in Demon Mark mode completely overwhelmed him; Drole stood no chance. Drole implies that Meliodas wasn't going all out

To me, it doesn't make sense to scale Drole based on someone he only touched twice throughout the entire fight — and that only happened when Meliodas was focused on Gloxinia. Because when Meliodas turned his attention to Drole, Drole couldn't escape or stall him.

I believe this is the relevant part.

Here he asks why I am scaling Drole to Diane.

How did you establish these former characters scaling to Diane?
like she's is quite superior to most of the people in the blog. The person she was fighting was mael, not just mael but 4 commandments mael who is faster and stronger than anyone on that blog save for true form ludociel and maybe just normal ludociel. You're also the one that pointed out that her and king could keep up with ludociel when they were sent back in time. Sure they can still be slower but not by that much

I reply this:

She wasn't fighting Mael; the attack came from his cocoon.

It was Diane in her base form who was intercepting the light attacks. Her strongest version is when she uses Drole's Dance. That Diane is comparable to base Drole. That's why all these characters are being scaled based on her.

he reply this:

Yeah same thing. Those stuff are much more superior to anything we've seen from the angels prior
Her strength is comparable to drole using the power of earth. Idk how you got speed there.

I say that characters with equal strength have equal speed.

Diane didn't engage him directly and casually dodged Cocoon's attacks, while Estarossa himself, with one commandment, was stronger than that same Diane.

Characters with equal strength have always had equal speed; there's no reason for it to be any different here.

he reply this:

He's stronger than her sure but he has no speed advantage over her.
That's just completely wrong. Mel strength wasn't even close to grey demon hendrikson yet he could keep up fine in speed, chandler and chusack could hardly be damaged until Merlin amplified their weaknesses yet ludociel is superior to them in speed. I can keep going on but it's not necessarily because that assumption has never been true for any fictional series ever

I reply this:

Power levels in Nanatsu no Taizai consist of three attributes, with magic and strength directly affecting speed — as shown multiple times. It's even possible to convert magic into strength, which measures a person's physical capabilities, not just raw power. Characters with similar power levels or strength are comparable to each other. That's always been the case in Nanatsu no Taizai, and I don't care how it's handled in the rest of fiction.

Spoiler: Feats

Here are feats that show magic and strength scaling into physical attributes like speed.

before Ban stole half of Galand's strength, he was constantly being overtaken by Galand. But when Ban steals half of Galand's strength, he, who couldn't compete with Galand, started to keep up with him. The same happens when he steals Meliodas' strength: Ban gets faster while Meliodas gets weaker and slower.

Highlighting Melascula’s statement, where she refers to combat class to claim that Ban was superior to Galand. She also says that if she stole Galand’s entire strength attribute, he would be left immobile.

Galand is able to convert magic into physical attributes. When he does this, he claims he could fight Meliodas — who had previously dominated him completely.

Demon King; before, he was overpowered by base Meliodas, but upon gaining more darkness, he easily surpassed base Meliodas. Upon gaining even more darkness, he easily surpassed Meliodas's amplified mark.

When Tristan lost his magic, he was extremely exhausted and could barely move, showing that the lack of magic directly affects speed.

Characters with equal or greater power than others should scale to them, unless there are anti-feats preventing it. A statement confirming equal strength is more than enough to justify speed scaling in Nanatsu no Taizai.

Meliodas is slower than ash Hendrickson.

Cusack and Chandler are comparable to Ludociel in both strength and speed

he reply this:

Spoiler: Feats

This entire yap session is not worthy of my time and is just wrong.

There are things that were left out, such as Ark, which doesn’t interfere with the scaling at all; Meliodas keeping up with Ash Hendrickson, since he thought it was base Meliodas who did that, but it was actually him with Demon Mark.
There’s also the part about Drole scaling to Ludociel with his attack speed, but the distance Ludociel covered was much greater than Drole’s, making it impossible for him to scale.
And he also says that Meliodas dodged some of Drole’s rocks, but that was incorrect.

 

[FinePoint]

I hope this helps

I see.

I'm not knowledgeable on the verse, but it does seem like contextually them being injured probably didn't affect much.

 

[Demon_Lord18]

I see.

I'm not knowledgeable on the verse, but it does seem like contextually them being injured probably didn't affect much.

So you agree with the CRT?

 

[FinePoint]

So you agree with the CRT?

I believe so.

 

[Shigeonnt]

How many more people need to agree for it to be closed?