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Star Wars Discussion Thread Canon/Legends- Episode VI Return of the Threadi

Hagane_no_Saiyajin said:
Also, how does ANH Ben Kenobi compare to OWK Obi-Wan?
Click to expand...
Phsccarvalho said:
image.png

When this guide was released, OWK didn't exist, but now that it does, this new context makes this Vader superior to that version, while Kenobi is weaker.
Click to expand...
.
 
@Phsccarvalho Even though we currently call the two continuities "Canon" and "Legends" is that really the correct way to call them? It wasn't George Lucas who made that separation after all, it was Disney.

So shouldn't we instead call the continuities "Disney Canon" and "Expanded Universe Canon"/"Lucasfilm Canon"?
 
Hagane_no_Saiyajin said:
Kanan stronger by Season 4?
Click to expand...
Last key mentions season 2, where the Vader feat i know about happens

Phsccarvalho said:
.
Click to expand...
Ty

Hagane_no_Saiyajin said:
Also, how does ANH Ben Kenobi compare to OWK Obi-Wan?
Click to expand...
Aside from the scan Carvalho brought (which will be indexed), from a feat perspective it is highly doubtable that a Ben Kenobi weaker than his younger self can deal with General Grievous, for example. He doesn't position himself lower on the list because of his fight against Maul and because people with incomplete training do not compare to him in the slightest, still.

Hagane_no_Saiyajin said:
Did you forget about Vader for ANH, ESB, and RotJ?
Click to expand...
Not at all keys. Those, iirc, are all P-Rebels and the note prior to the stuff should be taken into consideration
For a better understanding, characters will be divided between Over the Top, Top, Mid, Bottom tiers together with explanation about why they are there. Some keys encompass a large period of time (for example, "Endor Sidious" gets every single thing between Episode 1 and the end of episode 6) despite the characters varying significantly in power during that period, and it should be taken into consideration before proposing changes to this chain
Click to expand...

Same answer, imo, for:
Hagane_no_Saiyajin said:
Also, wasn't Vader stronger than Ahsoka in Rebels?
Click to expand...
this
Phsccarvalho said:
Endor Sidious > RotS Sidious. It doesn't even make sense to put them as equals.
Click to expand...
and this

Phsccarvalho said:
Cere is much higher up there, at the level of the council.
Click to expand...
Other than the fight with Vader where she got mugged without much difficulty, what's her feat?
Also "level of the council" is something that varies largely, because on the same day where a member of the council was stalemated with/ending Darth-F***ing-Sidious, Mr "aTtAcK oN tHe WoOkIeS" died from 3 blaster shots (and while Kit Fisto negged Grievous completely, both in Legends and (afaik) Canon Shak-Ti was murdered by him), and i already put her above the likes of Poof, Depa Bilaba or Ki-Adi Mundi
 
Also much important and that anyone answered:
Is this writing format acceptable?
Should it be directly on the verse page or should it be a Blog?
 
noninho said:
Other than the fight with Vader where she got mugged without much difficulty, what's her feat?
Also "level of the council" is something that varies largely, because on the same day where a member of the council was stalemated with/ending Darth-F***ing-Sidious, Mr "aTtAcK oN tHe WoOkIeS" died from 3 blaster shots (and while Kit Fisto negged Grievous completely, both in Legends and (afaik) Canon Shak-Ti was murdered by him), and i already put her above the likes of Poof, Depa Bilaba or Ki-Adi Mundi
Click to expand...
First, about the council level. Isn't there really a wide margin? Like, obviously Mace Windu and Yoda are higher up, having been declared the greatest duelist and the greatest Force user within the council. But I don't see how the others are.

Why is Ki-Adi Mundi being killed by blasters relevant? Blasters are things that kill Jedi, even the strongest ones. In episode 7, Kylo Ren takes a blaster shot, and in the novel, it's said that he instinctively used the Force to counter the damage, but he was still badly injured.

Shak-Ti wasn't killed by Grievous; she was killed by Anakin.

-

Cere made an OWK Vader take the fight seriously, something a weaker version of Vader didn't do against a dark side-enhanced version of Eeth Koth. And a non-dark side Eeth Koth was described as one of the council's finest duelists, who could have defeated Grievous early in the war, a duel Koth fought while wounded by a blaster.
 
One last thing:
Phsccarvalho said:
Endor Sidious > RotS Sidious. It doesn't even make sense to put them as equals.
Click to expand...
I have never said it, i just do exactly as i've said and go by the keys
IMO we are having enough discussion to base an RotS Sidious key, very simple stuff: Rivaled by RotS Anakin, Superior to Dooku and Yoda
Bam, problem solved
 
noninho said:
One last thing:

I have never said it, i just do exactly as i've said and go by the keys
IMO we are having enough discussion to base an RotS Sidious key, very simple stuff: Rivaled by RotS Anakin, Superior to Dooku and Yoda
Bam, problem solved
Click to expand...
We can make a key for it later, but the scale chain is not mandatory to just have keys that exist in the profiles.
 
Phsccarvalho said:
Shak-Ti wasn't killed by Grievous; she was killed by Anakin.
Click to expand...
Ah yes, good to remember, ty

Phsccarvalho said:
Why is Ki-Adi Mundi being killed by blasters relevant?
Click to expand...
Context is very important, and i firmly believe that everyone above him on the chain wouldn't die like he did on that situation.

Phsccarvalho said:
In episode 7, Kylo Ren takes a blaster shot, and in the novel, it's said that he instinctively used the Force to counter the damage, but he was still badly injured.
Click to expand...
I only believe that Kylo Ren>Ki-Adi Mundi because of that source you gave us, other than that i'd put him below the Jedi Master
Phsccarvalho said:
Cere made an OWK Vader take the fight seriously, something a weaker version of Vader didn't do against a dark side-enhanced version of Eeth Koth. And a non-dark side Eeth Koth was described as one of the council's finest duelists, who could have defeated Grievous early in the war, a duel Koth fought while wounded by a blaster.
Click to expand...
Understood, it made sense
So it sounds reasonable to say:
Rey w/ Jedi Spirits > Post-Endor Sidious = Sequels Luke > RoJ Luke = OWK Obi-Wan ≥ RotS/Endor Sidious = Yoda > Rebels Ahsoka = Post-Rebels Vader ≥ Kit Fisto / Plo Koon / Windu = JS Cal / Cere Junda = Post-Mustafar Vader ≥ Dooku = RotS Obi-Wan = RotS Anakin = Grievous
Click to expand...
?
Phsccarvalho said:
a duel Koth fought while wounded by a blaster.
Click to expand...
See what i mean when i say that the council is being poorly represented by a guy who dies by the blaster ambush? lmao
In all seriousness, this is further reasoning for the point that people in the council vary largely in power
Let's remember that some council members were put there not by fighting prowess but by knowledge in the force and dedication to the Code being factors
 
Phsccarvalho said:
We can make a key for it later, but the scale chain is not mandatory to just have keys that exist in the profiles.
Click to expand...
Yes it is?
Specially if it's something that we intend on putting on the verse page?
There is a note explaining that the keys encompass a large period of time, the characters that fight those unexisting keys are mentioned to have scaled "at some point" or detailing where said points in time are. Other than those, would basically make Vader keys work like ads lol
 
noninho said:
Understood, it made sense
So it sounds reasonable to say:
?
Click to expand...
Post-Mustafar includes Jedi Survivor Vader. And even if Vader took it seriously, he was still superior—maybe a ">~"? I'm not good at scaling, so I'm talking about where I roughly think a character is, like Cere being similar to a high-level member of the council.

As far as I know, Cal is only Cere-level when he's driven by the dark side (do they both have the same moveset?), but I guess it doesn't matter.

noninho said:
See what i mean when i say that the council is being poorly represented by a guy who dies by the blaster ambush? lmao
In all seriousness, this is further reasoning for the point that people in the council vary largely in power
Let's remember that some council members were put there not by fighting prowess but by knowledge in the force and dedication to the Code being factors
Click to expand...
I personally don't take what happened in Order 66 too seriously, because, like, even ordinary Jedi sometimes face multiple adversaries.

Like Cal's master, who defeated several clones during Order 66 and in the end died at the hands of a few clones despite having a million ways to defeat them.

I see it more as a PIS.

noninho said:
Yes it is?
Specially if it's something that we intend on putting on the verse page?
There is a note explaining that the keys encompass a large period of time, the characters that fight those unexisting keys are mentioned to have scaled "at some point" or detailing where said points in time are. Other than those, would basically make Vader keys work like ads lol
Click to expand...
I don't see why you can't include multiple versions of the character to "explain it better," like including a Rebels Vader because of Ashoka. It'll get bigger, but scale chains are always big.

(Try to imagine the Dragon Ball scale chain)
 
Phsccarvalho said:
As far as I know, Cal is only Cere-level when he's driven by the dark side (do they both have the same moveset?), but I guess it doesn't matter.
Click to expand...
From what the profile says, he mastered everything she does and outdoes her or something like it
Phsccarvalho said:
Post-Mustafar includes Jedi Survivor Vader.
Click to expand...
I was throwing JS at Post-Rebels, but yeah, imma adequate considering that
Phsccarvalho said:
personally don't take what happened in Order 66 too seriously, because, like, even ordinary Jedi sometimes face multiple adversaries.
Click to expand...
And a Council member died like most of them ordinary Jedi, making him not quite impressive as other guys...Like Ahsoka, who could survive more clones shooting in a way higher firerate.

Phsccarvalho said:
Like Cal's master, who defeated several clones during Order 66 and in the end died at the hands of a few clones
Click to expand...
Cal's master..? She died because Vader killed her, think you're talking about other people

Phsccarvalho said:
I don't see why you can't include multiple versions of the character to "explain it better," like including a Rebels Vader because of Ashoka. It'll get bigger, but scale chains are always big.

(Try to imagine the Dragon Ball scale chain)
Click to expand...
As something that is on the verse page, i think it is very important to mention only what the pages present, as well as mentioning that things happened in a period of time

Ahsoka, as you mentioned
Rebels Ahsoka (Who matched him and overperformed him later in life)
Click to expand...
How is that imprecise enough to justify "Rebels Vader"???
It would also generate the need of a "Post-Rebels Ahsoka", because her TV Show also has no key in the profile
See that this is generating other needs and just unnecesarily enlarges the chain?

More on that Dragon Ball comparison: Not only there's time passage but there are also tons of transformations, making that typical kilometric scaling chain...All of that is in the profiles.
So like...it's not comparable
 
noninho said:
From what the profile says, he mastered everything she does and outdoes her or something like it
Click to expand...
This was a younger Cere, when she was still the second sister's master. She had grown stronger, as Vader noticed.

noninho said:
Cal's master..? She died because Vader killed her, think you're talking about other people
Click to expand...


Jaro Tapal faces about 5 clones and then dies from 5 clones, lol.

noninho said:
As something that is on the verse page, i think it is very important to mention only what the pages present, as well as mentioning that things happened in a period of time

Ahsoka, as you mentioned
How is that imprecise enough to justify "Rebels Vader"???
It would also generate the need of a "Post-Rebels Ahsoka", because her TV Show also has no key in the profile
See that this is generating other needs and just unnecesarily enlarges the chain?
Click to expand...
If you only want to put keys that exist in the profiles on the scale, why are you putting keys that don't exist like RosT Sidious?

If you only want to include existing profiles, why are you including non-existent ones, like RoST Sidious? There's only the Endor and post-Endor keys.

It's inaccurate because you first included "Post-Rebels" Vader, someone who "Rebels Ashoka" never faced, since it's a post-Rebels Vader. Besides, Vader becomes stronger, surpassing his Rebels version at least twice as much. If you consider Rebels Ashoka as truly equal to Rebels Vader, then it would be "Vader (ROJ) > Vader (ANH) > Vader (Rebels) = Ashoka (Rebels)".

noninho said:
More on that Dragon Ball comparison: Not only there's time passage but there are also tons of transformations, making that typical kilometric scaling chain...All of that is in the profiles.
So like...it's not comparable
Click to expand...
Just using Vader's Strength-boosting statements, we have:
Anakin (CW) < Anakin (RotS/Pré-Sith) < Anakin (RotS/Post-Sith) < Vader (Post-Suit) < Vader (LotS) < Vader (OWK) < Vader (ANH) < Vader (post-ESB) < Vader (ROJ).

-
Besides talking about it:
Will be categorized as Over the Top tier Post-Rebels Darth Vader, one of the most impressive powerhouses in the verse, and characters beside or above him, such as Rebels Ahsoka (Who matched him and overperformed him later in life), Obi-Wan Kenobi in his homonimous TV Show (Also outperformed him, though way more seriously), Luke Skywalker in his RoJ self (Claimed to be a threat to both Sidious and Vader) and in his Sequels' self (Is implied to be much more powerful than before) Darth Sidious in both his Endor (Could completely dominate Vader without effort; this makes Grandmaster Yoda be on this tier too, who matched him at some point)
Click to expand...
It starts off wrong because OWK never faced Post-Rebels Vader, he faced OWK Vader, a weaker version.

Also, about that incident you mentioned about Sidious easily defeating Vader. It was in "Darth Vader (2020) #6. (after episode 5)" It wasn't exactly a fight and he didn't just have to deal with Sidious.

Anyway. After that Vader got stronger.

Later, Vader handles Palpatine's attacks better, even acknowledging him as strong.

In the end, we are reminded that both Vader and Palpatine grow stronger over time, with Palpatine remaining superior (by also feeding on Vader's hate).

-

Anyway, I highly doubt that a ROJ Vader, for example, wouldn't surpass RotS's Sidious because of scale, but that would only be important to discuss in a CRT.

Sidious (RotS) >~ Anakin (RotS/Pré-Sith) < Anakin (RotS/Post-Sith) < Vader (Post-Suit) < Vader (LotS) < Vader (OWK) < Vader (ANH) < Vader (post-ESB) < Vader (ROJ).
 
Phsccarvalho said:
Anyway, I'll stay out of Vsbattle for the rest of the day.

I'll play DB:kakarot.
Click to expand...
Peak decision making, amazing game.

Phsccarvalho said:
This was a younger Cere, when she was still the second sister's master. She had grown stronger, as Vader noticed.
Click to expand...
to me it feels heavily implied that Cal is in similar level to her by the end of JS, because in the end of Fallen Order he somewhat survives meeting Vader even before her interference, and he grows largely after this
Phsccarvalho said:
Jaro Tapal faces about 5 clones and then dies from 5 clones, lol.
Click to expand...
Well, i know jack **** about Cal's games, but this also proves what i said
Bro, if we're dying on this hill about masters/council being a consistent thing, riddle me this:
Qui-Gon is a good fighter and has an amazing view about the force and his own vision of the Jedi code. Even though he wasn't the best in obeying orders, people thought he'd make a good council member.
And Maul murdered him without much difficulty, only to lose to a Padawan.
Again, Ki-Adi Mundi dies from like 3 clones with blasters, a very known council member. Ahsoka, banned from the order as a padawan iirc, could survive more than 10 shooting her at the same time from all directions.

Yeah, both padawans i mentioned eventually became some of the craziest biggest baddest MFs of all time, and this is to say that "Padawan", "Master" and "Council Member" aren't immediate signs of great power and great position in the chain.
Phsccarvalho said:
If you only want to put keys that exist in the profiles on the scale, why are you putting keys that don't exist like RosT Sidious?

If you only want to include existing profiles, why are you including non-existent ones, like RoST Sidious? There's only the Endor and post-Endor keys.
Click to expand...
wym?
Darth Sidious in both his Endor (Could completely dominate Vader without effort; this makes Grandmaster Yoda be on this tier too, who matched him at some point) and Post-Endor (Like Sequels' Luke, it's implied to be severely more powerful; This brings together Rey Palpatine with the Jedi Spirits, because she bested him) selves.
Click to expand...
I think the existence of RotS Sidious is justified, yes
But i'm not mentioning it lol

Phsccarvalho said:
It's inaccurate because you first included "Post-Rebels" Vader, someone who "Rebels Ashoka" never faced, since it's a post-Rebels Vader.
Click to expand...
P-Rebels Vader and Rebels Ahsoka are the last keys in both profiles, and in Ahsoka's case i clearly mentioned that later in life she surpasses him.
There are no imprecisions here, mate!
Phsccarvalho said:
Besides, Vader becomes stronger, surpassing his Rebels version at least twice as much. If you consider Rebels Ashoka as truly equal to Rebels Vader, then it would be "Vader (ROJ) > Vader (ANH) > Vader (Rebels) = Ashoka (Rebels)".
Click to expand...
Phsccarvalho said:
Just using Vader's Strength-boosting statements, we have:
Anakin (CW) < Anakin (RotS/Pré-Sith) < Anakin (RotS/Post-Sith) < Vader (Post-Suit) < Vader (LotS) < Vader (OWK) < Vader (ANH) < Vader (post-ESB) < Vader (ROJ).
Click to expand...
RoJ, ANH, LotS, OWK and ESB are not existing keys! That's why i'm not taking into consideration!
That you mentioned, Anakin only has his CW and RotS keys and Vader has a P-Mustafar (or Post-Suit, as you called) and P-Rebels.
please take into consideration the note that i put exactly because of it

Some keys encompass a large period of time (for example, "Endor Sidious" gets every single thing between Episode 1 and the end of episode 6) despite the characters varying significantly in power during that period, and it should be taken into consideration before proposing changes to this chain
Click to expand...

Phsccarvalho said:
It starts off wrong because OWK never faced Post-Rebels Vader, he faced OWK Vader, a weaker version.
Click to expand...
Ain't OWK after Rebels... making it Post-Rebels?
Please tell me if this is wrong.


Look, IMO having a trillion Vaders would make the chain uglier, but if it really bugs you that the chain doesn't have all those Vaders and all those Sidious, create them keys!
You're mentioning so many Vader events and so many Vader keys that i'm really confused and think it's best to even suspend the work i'm doing rn and let you tell me Vaders' location here. Would you please have the work of checking the "Gross Mode" and index to me where should the Vaders be and why? Will be applying unless i see contest as necessary
I think that it's not a hill that deserves me to die on like the Yoda one, but i lack the time and dedication towards Vader that you show me you got, so i will be putting those non-existing keys there.
 
Would the heat of the Lightsaber be able to cut someone with no heat res/Very low heat res compared to the heat of the lightsaber, but is a completely different tier above the Lightsaber in AP?

just wondering....
 
Ms.Luzifer said:
Would the heat of the Lightsaber be able to cut someone with no heat res/Very low heat res compared to the heat of the lightsaber, but is a completely different tier above the Lightsaber in AP?

just wondering....
Click to expand...
Heat is a type of dura neg hax. The 8-A is only because it can cut someone with 8-A durability.

Unless the wiki changes the system so that guys with high durability have high heat resistance, kind of ignore the lightsaber tier.
 
noninho said:
to me it feels heavily implied that Cal is in similar level to her by the end of JS, because in the end of Fallen Order he somewhat survives meeting Vader even before her interference, and he grows largely after this
Click to expand...
At the end of JS, yes, with the dark side.

In the first game, Vader was just playing around, easily defeating both of them with one hand, which means he wasn't even taking things seriously.

Being able to escape and face someone is different.

Kanan and Erza managed to face and escape Vader, however, Fioli compares the Ghost Crew to being level 5 while Vader was level 80. They didn't even have a chance.

noninho said:
Well, i know jack **** about Cal's games, but this also proves what i said
Bro, if we're dying on this hill about masters/council being a consistent thing, riddle me this:
Qui-Gon is a good fighter and has an amazing view about the force and his own vision of the Jedi code. Even though he wasn't the best in obeying orders, people thought he'd make a good council member.
And Maul murdered him without much difficulty, only to lose to a Padawan.
Again, Ki-Adi Mundi dies from like 3 clones with blasters, a very known council member. Ahsoka, banned from the order as a padawan iirc, could survive more than 10 shooting her at the same time from all directions.

Yeah, both padawans i mentioned eventually became some of the craziest biggest baddest MFs of all time, and this is to say that "Padawan", "Master" and "Council Member" aren't immediate signs of great power and great position in the chain.
Click to expand...
Maul underestimated Obi-Wan that's why he was defeated.

Something Maul did again in Rebels, underestimating Obi-Wan because he was old and still using the technique he used to kill Quin (something old Obi-Wan already expected). Which was a serious flaw that led to his quick death.

noninho said:
RoJ, ANH, LotS, OWK and ESB are not existing keys! That's why i'm not taking into consideration!
That you mentioned, Anakin only has his CW and RotS keys and Vader has a P-Mustafar (or Post-Suit, as you called) and P-Rebels.
please take into consideration the note that i put exactly because of it
Click to expand...
That's why we've included the last interaction in the wiki. When we talk about the Post-Rebels, we're essentially talking about ROJ Vader.

noninho said:
Ain't OWK after Rebels... making it Post-Rebels?
Please tell me if this is wrong.
Click to expand...
The Obi-Wan series takes place years before Rebels. He faced Vader post-Mustafar.

noninho said:
Look, IMO having a trillion Vaders would make the chain uglier, but if it really bugs you that the chain doesn't have all those Vaders and all those Sidious, create them keys!
You're mentioning so many Vader events and so many Vader keys that i'm really confused and think it's best to even suspend the work i'm doing rn and let you tell me Vaders' location here. Would you please have the work of checking the "Gross Mode" and index to me where should the Vaders be and why? Will be applying unless i see contest as necessary
I think that it's not a hill that deserves me to die on like the Yoda one, but i lack the time and dedication towards Vader that you show me you got, so i will be putting those non-existing keys there.
Click to expand...
Honestly, I might make my own version later. Not like yours of putting someone as objectively stronger or weaker, but only those who scale to x values, you know? I think it's easier and less confusing that way.

Star Wars always seems to have characters that are either comparable or not. And honestly, it gets confusing after a while.

If you want, when I start working on it, we can talk in DM or on Discord. Since we'll be able to speak in Portuguese.

You're better at writing than I am, so it would still be helpful.
 
Phsccarvalho said:
Being able to escape and face someone is different.

Kanan and Erza managed to face and escape Vader, however, Fioli compares the Ghost Crew to being level 5 while Vader was level 80. They didn't even have a chance.
Click to expand...
Yeah, and because afaik JS Cal = Cere >> FO Cal and because Kanan and Ezra should be dead, that they have largely different positions
Phsccarvalho said:
The Obi-Wan series takes place years before Rebels. He faced Vader post-Mustafar.
Click to expand...
As I told the other fella before, that's new to me and it's important to know how much has Vader grown since OWK, cuz depending on it, it's debatable to say "OWK Obi-Wan = P-Rebels Vader"

Phsccarvalho said:
Honestly, I might make my own version later. Not like yours of putting someone as objectively stronger or weaker, but only those who scale to x values, you know? I think it's easier and less confusing that way.

Star Wars always seems to have characters that are either comparable or not. And honestly, it gets confusing after a while.

If you want, when I start working on it, we can talk in DM or on Discord. Since we'll be able to speak in Portuguese.

You're better at writing than I am, so it would still be helpful.
Click to expand...
Seems to me like we should be working on the same thing: A blog about scaling chain on both senses.

Whenever you start working on it, DM me, unfortunately Discord would be a bit inconvenient for me to use cuz i work on those things whenever my work lets me or on my phone. I won't put my discord up at work and Hagane took all my phone storage space with Yoda material lmfao. Until there, i'll stop working on this chain and will be working on Yoda and Ordem Paranormal so i'll be the occupied person.
 
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