Garou vs Cooler (0-0-0)

[MrTayman616]

there is no proof garou and saitama can scale to that soul resistance just because psykos could do it

Genus's explanation about the limiter.

Everyone has their limiter. Same applies to psychics and their capacity. It applies to all of it.

Not to mention Genus could make psychics as well.

Also Psykos is shown to resist it via willpower, but forced Orochi back via psychonesis

 

[Epiccheev]

And don't even try to say "willpower" because there is a thread to remove willpower from the verse

One Punch Man - Willpower is weird

Willpower and The Limiter page Willpower being a mechanic in-verse is fine and all, but many abilities here do not seem to be related with will. And that's it. I was gonna make a Cursed Energy revision but realized that there's too many JJK crts so I went with this EDIT: People seem to want...

vsbattles.com

So what is usable from it is questionable

It's already been accepted, it's just nobody has volunteered to apply. ( a.k.a edit a lot of pages)

 

[RedReaper616]

Garou has no real reason to get ganged up on by a crazy amount of opponents since he has portal spam teleportation with interdimensional range. Which he can use to transport himself or just BFR the duplicates at will. He'll be able to fight them at his own pace because of that.

Cooler’s teleporting doesn’t require portals, which makes it that little bit faster (as it’s just thought and traveling in the Time Transcendent Space).

Instant transmission also isn't really a counter since it's less versatile and requires explicit energy signatures. And interdimensional range is just a lot more overpowered. And, Garou could likely just... copy Instant Transmission anyway?

IT is Interdimensional in nature, as well. Garou can also be sensed by Cooler, and Cooler can predict where a foe will re-appear in reality (as he did to Goku with his scanner to toss Vegeta at him).

This is apparently a weakness of him and his army thing. Which is... pretty damn bad against an opponent like Garou whose whole thing is that he becomes massively stronger and faster as the fight goes on.

Only in the Big Gete Star, and the energy that overwhelmed the Star was stated to be “infinite.” It’s very consistent within the Toei Anime and Films for Saiyan Ki to be described to have a “bottomless” sense to it despite their finite stamina and power. Baby outright says this about Trunks’ Ki verbatim, Cooler talks about it when they overload him, etc.

Not saying Garou can’t do it, it’s just that how exactly the Star is overwhelmed is basically “Saiyans have no limits!” So I don’t know what exact point you’d have to be before you overwhelmed the Star. Additionally, that only happened after they already beat Goku and Vegeta to directly siphon Ki via wires. Garou would literally have to lose first and get abducted for that strategy to work. Or directly invade the Star and bypass the Coolers.

Would he not just eventually overwhelm the system in the same way with his exponential growth? A massive amount of opponents is cool and all but if Garou just becomes 100x stronger and faster than all of them, it's not really going to matter. And that's apparently all he needs to win the fight anyways.

I’m pretty sure Garou’s AD is better, but the AD/RE of Cooler is also pretty potent. He directly takes the combat data and corrects to “correct that flaw” making him as strong as he needs to be to face his foe. For instance, when Cooler fought Goku, he went 1v1 and was even. Then when Goku hurt him a bit, he started stomping Goku. From there, Vegeta arrived, and they could hurt him again, but right after that they couldn’t until they both went all out. Unquantifiable jumps, for sure, but clearly indicative that he grows to outgun what can hurt him. Basically, they’d be in a massive arms race where Garou evolves faster and on his own, but Cooler would be reacting to match that with his own systems.

What exactly can Cooler do here? People saying he would stomp but... if anything it seems the other way around for me. Anything he does gets copied and power-cliffed.

Their vote is based on the unconventional Time Stop attacks Cooler can do. Garou would have to copy the technique of Cooler while frozen in time, because Film IT works by placing you in a Time-Transcendent Space to move in Zero Time to where you want to go. And Cooler can prep moves when he does that, and even feint, like when he charged to punch Vegeta before using IT to actually catch him off guard with a double axe handle from the other dimension, so when he re-appeared he’d be hitting virtually instantly from an unpredictable angle.

And Cooler literally spams IT. Additionally, the Space is a different dimension, so he wouldn’t be affected by much of Garou’s passives (because he doesn’t share physical space with Garou) until he lands an attack or generally stays in the main reality.

 

[MrTayman616]

IT is Interdimensional in nature, as well. Garou can also be sensed by Cooler, and Cooler can predict where a foe will re-appear in reality (as he did to Goku with his scanner to toss Vegeta at him).

True, but I think he meant it in terms of BFR?

Only in the Big Gete Star, and the energy that overwhelmed the Star was stated to be “infinite.” It’s very consistent within the Toei Anime and Films for Saiyan Ki to be described to have a “bottomless” sense to it despite their finite stamina and power. Baby outright says this about Trunks’ Ki verbatim, Cooler talks about it when they overload him, etc.

Not saying Garou can’t do it, it’s just that how exactly the Star is overwhelmed is basically “Saiyans have no limits!” So I don’t know what exact point you’d have to be before you overwhelmed the Star. Additionally, that only happened after they already beat Goku and Vegeta to directly siphon Ki via wires. Garou would literally have to lose first and get abducted for that strategy to work. Or directly invade the Star and bypass the Coolers.

I'm not really a watcher of dbz movies so i'm not sure, but i don't think that's agreed here.

The wiki accepts it as "The exact durability of the Big Gete Star is unknown", so based on the weakness section;

Too much energy can overload his systems and cause the destruction of the Big Gete Star and the Meta Cooler army

It's just unquantifiable. So i think it just scales to a very high energy based on his profile (in a versus thread).

Their vote is based on the unconventional Time Stop attacks Cooler can do. Garou would have to copy the technique of Cooler while frozen in time, because Film IT works by placing you in a Time-Transcendent Space to move in Zero Time to where you want to go. And Cooler can prep moves when he does that, and event feint, like when he charged to punch Vegeta before using IT to actually catch him off guard with a double axe handle in a different dimension, so when he re-appeared he’d be hitting virtually instantly from an unpredictable angle.

He starts and applies the technique in the normal space. He'd be able to copy it. Also, he just prepares the attack but doesn't really start it, which we know that's how he used it against Goku.

For Vegeta, it can easily be that he'd appear to the normal space a sec later.

Also that's how Garou uses his portals as well, which even he calls his attack "unavoidable" based on how they ignore distance via his mastery over portals. (Though Saitama dodges the point blank portal, cuz he's a goat :d)

And Cooler literally spams IT. Additionally, the Space is a different dimension, so he wouldn’t be affected by much of Garou’s passives (because he doesn’t share physical space with Garou until he lands an attack).

Radiation is more potent the closer you are. Garou's radiation at touching distance is instant death normally, though i'm not sure how it works against inorganic characters.

 

[RedReaper616]

True, but I think he meant it in terms of BFR?

I mean, IT also works between the Afterlife and Living Universe, and Cooler is indicated to be as skilled at it as Goku is, who performs the Interdimensional IT feats, so that remains the same.

I'm not really a watcher of dbz movies so i'm not sure, but i don't think that's agreed here.

It’s agreed on the Saiyan Profiles, (like Cryo said, the Toei Profiles are poorly managed, but I’ve been trying to fix that—Hence my GT Goku Overhaul Thread and Baby Thread), but not added to the Star. And even then…

The wiki accepts it as "The exact durability of the Big Gete Star is unknown", so based on the weakness section;

It's just unquantifiable. So i think it just scales to a very high energy based on his profile (in a versus thread).

…I agree with this. My point wasn’t “You need infinite energy,” it was “Vegeta and Goku used what is described as the infinite-like nature of their Ki to do the trick, so trying to obtain a specific value isn’t really possible/it’s totally unknown/I legitimately don’t know what ‘level’ you’d need to hit before you succeeded.”

That said, what’s described is that the overload overheated it, so if the Gete Star is close enough it’d probably get overheated regardless due to the intense temp of what Garou does. At least, if it’s over the BGS’s heat resistance, which is probably nebulously similar to the Core of Earth (or well, Namek, but Earth is probably a reasonable stand in), given the BGS directly drains a planet.

He starts and applies the technique in the normal space. He'd be able to copy it.

Yeah, but Cooler can chain them nigh-indefinitely. That’s what Goku and him do during their first clash—Chain IT together to hit and dodge before Cooler catches him Mid-IT. Cooler and Goku also react to each other using IT (which isn’t accepted as a speed feat, thank God, but it does mean that the activation of IT is virtually instant outside of the brief moments of contact).

Also, he just prepares the attack but doesn't really start it, which we know that's how he used it against Goku.

No, he starts it too. When he does it to Goku, all Goku feels is the hit colliding on his back (to his surprise).

For Vegeta, it can easily be that he'd appear to the normal space a sec later.

He would, to make contact. It’s not that he can hit while in that space (unless you can use IT too), it’s that he can effectively pull a King Crimson and prepare and throw the hit to you while he can’t so that when he does appear he’ll land the blow.

Also that's how Garou uses his portals as well, which even he calls his attack "unavoidable" based on how they ignore distance via his mastery over portals. (Though Saitama dodges the point blank portal, cuz he's a goat :d)

That’s not quite the same thing? Garou’s attacks ignore distance, but he still has to swing his fist, open a portal, etc. They’re still unavoidable because you can open that portal literally anywhere to hit—Making it basically impossible unless you’re fast enough (like Saitama) to just evade. Cooler is effectively attacking you in a Time Stop. From Garou’s perspective, it’s like the Stardust Crusaders OVA. Instantaneously, Cooler’s fist is in his gut. (And you also explicitly can’t see anything when it happens, as Cooler notes.)

M.Cooler: “Not even I was able to see him move. What did you do?!”

Goku: “Something I call Instantaneous Movement.”

M.Cooler: “What? Then you can do it too?”

Goku: “Me too?” (Gets Punched) “You too, huh?!”

From Garou’s perspective there is almost nothing to pick up. Mind you, Cooler KNOWS IT and couldn’t tell.

Radiation is more potent the closer you are. Garou's radiation at touching distance is instant death normally, though i'm not sure how it works against inorganic characters.

It would probably fry the Cooler bodies, unironically, as soon as they manifest back into reality.

 

[Kachon123]

Give me Garou in 5

 

[MrTayman616]

I mean, IT also works between the Afterlife and Living Universe, and Cooler is indicated to be as skilled at it as Goku is, who performs the Interdimensional IT feats, so that remains the same.

Afterlife and Living universe is connected in a special way. Instant Transmission can't go to the room of spirit and time as they can't sense the ki from there, which the reason is it has a "different dimension of time"

I assume that's why Meta Cooler doesn't have interdimensional range normally as well.

It’s agreed on the Saiyan Profiles, (like Cryo said, the Toei Profiles are poorly managed, but I’ve been trying to fix that—Hence my GT Goku Overhaul Thread and Baby Thread), but not added to the Star. And even then…

Could you post one of the profiles please? (I couldn't find it )

…I agree with this. My point wasn’t “You need infinite energy,” it was “Vegeta and Goku used what is described as the infinite-like nature of their Ki to do the trick, so trying to obtain a specific value isn’t really possible/it’s totally unknown/I legitimately don’t know what ‘level’ you’d need to hit before you succeeded.”

That said, what’s described is that the overload overheated it, so if the Gete Star is close enough it’d probably get overheated regardless due to the intense temp of what Garou does. At least, if it’s over the BGS’s heat resistance, which is probably nebulously similar to the Core of Earth, given the BGS directly drains a planet.

I'm talking from a versus thread perspective. As far as i know, it just applies as "higher" compared to his profile in this case or something without giving it a specific value.

That heat resistance isn't much aganist Garou's. He has GRB, nuclear fists etc.

Yeah, but Cooler can chain them nigh-indefinitely. That’s what Goku and him do during their first clash—Chain IT together to hit and dodge before Cooler catches him Mid-IT. Cooler and Goku also react to each other using IT (which isn’t accepted as a speed feat, thank God, but it does mean that the activation of IT is virtually instant outside of the brief moments of contact).

No, he starts it too. When he does it to Goku, all Goku feels is the hit colliding on his back (to his surprise).

I mean, as long as i didn't check the wrong fight, while he does use it a lot, it isn't an "instant hit" or anything like that. The attack doesn't land in the other space. He comes to the normal space and then lands it.

Garou attacks in the three dimensional space everchangingly to make sure his attack lands.

Also that time he kicks Goku is from his behind where he don't see him to begin with. Nothing can be said from that, but literally the next uses show it's not like that.

That’s not quite the same thing? Garou’s attacks ignore distance, but he still has to swing his fist, open a portal, etc. They’re still unavoidable because you can open that portal literally anywhere to hit—Making it basically impossible unless you’re fast enough (like Saitama) to just evade. Cooler is effectively attacking you in a Time Stop. From Garou’s perspective, it’s like the Stardust Crusaders OVA. Instantaneously, Cooler’s fist is in his gut. (And you also explicitly can’t see anything when it happens, as Cooler notes.

Cooler goes to a location and prerapes for an attack. But he doesn't land it instantaneously.

Cooler notes is empty.

It would probably fry the Cooler bodies, unironically, as soon as they manifest back into reality.

What about Cooler himself?

 

[Kachon123]

Afterlife and Living universe is connected in a special way. Instant Transmission can't go to the room of spirit and time as they can't sense the ki from there, which the reason is it has a "different dimension of time"

I assume that's why Meta Cooler doesn't have interdimensional range normally as well.

Which is the main reason why Garou's BFR would work, as it send them into a hyperspace between space-time. Very similar to the time chamber.

 

[RedReaper616]

Afterlife and Living universe is connected in a special way. Instant Transmission can't go to the room of spirit and time as they can't sense the ki from there, which the reason is it has a "different dimension of time"

Ehhhh. They’re still separate dimensions of space and Time. Plus, Goku can teleport to the World of the Kai’s and back. It’s just a matter of range.

I assume that's why Meta Cooler doesn't have interdimensional range normally as well.

Nah, lack of updates.

Could you post one of the profiles please? (I couldn't find it )

Yeah. GTku and Baby Vegeta (from having Vegeta’s body).

“Saiyans are also repeatedly stated to have what appears to be an infinite or bottomless quality to their energy, a trait that is known as their Saiya Power, something that seems to inspire fear and make the opponent genuinely believe their Ki reserves are infinite when they are actually finite.”

I'm talking from a versus thread perspective. As far as i know, it just applies as "higher" compared to his profile in this case or something without giving it a specific value.

Valid.

That heat resistance isn't much aganist Garou's. He has GRB, nuclear fists etc.

Thought as much.

I mean, as long as i didn't check the wrong fight, while he does use it a lot, it isn't an "instant hit" or anything like that. The attack doesn't land in the other space. He comes to the normal space and then lands it.

That’s what I mean, he preps and starts the hit, but the blow only lands in ordinary space, so there’s technically time to avoid it. It’s just virtually zero from a perspective of a Speed Equal like this, especially when you can’t track it even if you’re aware IT exists.

Garou attacks in the three dimensional space everchangingly to make sure his attack lands.

Which is true, but still isn’t the same as Pseudo-King Crimson.

Also that time he kicks Goku is from his behind where he don't see him to begin with. Nothing can be said from that, but literally the next uses show it's not like that.

Sure, but Goku has trained to track movements in the atmosphere since early DB. He should’ve still been able to keep track of him entirely—And yet all Goku can feel is the hit.

Cooler notes is empty.

I mean as he noted in the actual film.

What about Cooler himself?

The BGS isn’t necessary for Cooler to live. While that far away, the Star would overheat and whatnot and have their communications ****** over, but Cooler was alive as just a head. So it would just live him stuck in the Star (ignoring how his cosmic radiation resistance probably isn’t high enough to survive if Garou got close enough.)

Which is the main reason why Garou's BFR would work, as it send them into a hyperspace between space-time. Very similar to the time chamber.

Kai Kai, which is just IT used without the Ki-range restriction by the Kai’s, (you just imagine and you teleport, that’s the only difference), could function in the Overarching Subspace that acts to hold the other Subspaces (Dimensions) like the RoSaT or Suguroku Space.

 

[MrTayman616]

Ehhhh. They’re still separate dimensions of space and Time. Plus, Goku can teleport to the World of the Kai’s and back. It’s just a matter of range.

That doesn't affect Garou's BFR. In case it happened, he wouldn't be able to come back via instant transmission.

Nah, lack of updates.

No. For the otherworld, which basically just because they allow it inverse, not because it can travel to other dimensions. It's been stated before as well and there is a literal example of incapability of doing it.

Yeah. GTku and Baby Vegeta (from having Vegeta’s body).

“Saiyans are also repeatedly stated to have what appears to be an infinite or bottomless quality to their energy, a trait that is known as their Saiya Power, something that seems to inspire fear and make the opponent genuinely believe their Ki reserves are infinite when they are actually finite.”

Thanks, though i don't see it being a problem here. It's relevant to their scaling to begin with, so it shouldn't make a difference like i said before.

Valid.

That’s what I mean, he preps and starts the hit, but the blow only lands in ordinary space, so there’s technically time to avoid it. It’s just virtually zero from a perspective of a Speed Equal like this, especially when you can’t track it even if you’re aware IT exists.

But he doesn't use it like that. He doesn't just appear the last millisecond or similar. He teleports and then starts the attack.

Sure, but Goku has trained to track movements in the atmosphere since early DB. He should’ve still been able to keep track of him entirely—And yet all Goku can feel is the hit.

First, i see no such thing as "all Goku can feel is the hit" in the entire fight. Nothing in that fight remotely implies this. Also Goku actually turned his head and looked at him here. It's not that it isn't reactable or almost impossible to do it.

I mean as he noted in the actual film.

Can you send it please?

The BGS isn’t necessary for Cooler to live. While that far away, the Star would overheat and whatnot and have their communications ****** over, but Cooler was alive as just a head. So it would just live him stuck in the Star (ignoring how his cosmic radiation resistance probably isn’t high enough to survive if Garou got close enough).

Oh, I didn't mean the BGS but Cooler against Garou. Landing a physical attack itself would require contact, no?

Kai Kai, which is just IT used without the Ki-range restriction by the Kai’s, (you just imagine and you teleport, that’s the only difference), could function in the Overarching Subspace that acts to hold the other Subspaces (Dimensions) like the RoSaT or Suguroku Space.

That would be a superiority of Kai Kai ability. (Or that Kai's can even sense other dimensions of time like that)

But Characters like Goku is shown to be incapable of doing it. They wouldn't scale to those who can.

 

[Phoenks]

Parallel-timeline Garou

And this is also the Garou who was on the verge of using time travel.

Even the psuedo-time stop stuff would likely get copied. And after that Garou is going to just invent his own time travel technique.

Btw instant transmission requires a hand gesture while the portals are actually thought-based. And again, Garou could just copy that too.

Does he really have to? I noticed he's got absorption, why can't he just absorb the GR?

Great way to immediately kill himself? No resistance to radiation on the level that can ionize matter from light-years away.

I’m pretty sure Garou’s AD is better, but the AD/RE of Cooler is also pretty potent. He directly takes the combat data and corrects to “correct that flaw” making him as strong as he needs to be to face his foe. For instance, when Cooler fought Goku, he went 1v1 and was even. Then when Goku hurt him a bit, he started stomping Goku. From there, Vegeta arrived, and they could hurt him again, but right after that they couldn’t until they both went all out. Unquantifiable jumps, for sure, but clearly indicative that he grows to outgun what can hurt him. Basically, they’d be in a massive arms race where Garou evolves faster and on his own, but Cooler would be reacting to match that with his own systems.

Unquantifiable amps don't really match up to Garou who had quantifiable jumps of getting tens of times stronger in a brief fight. And adding in the speed difference that would accumulate on top of that.

An unquantifiable amp could be getting 1.1x stronger, 1.2x stronger, etc.

Also, correct me if I'm wrong, but in Dragons Ball, don't they treat things like 10x and 20x amps over the opponent as it being some absolutely crazy and unbeatable multiplier? Such as Kaoi-ken and the super Saiyan forms?

 

[StekFence]

I believe in the namek arc, relatively small pl gaps were stomps despite being narratively linear to power. Idk if the wiki treats them as such for Toei tho

 

[RedReaper616]

That doesn't affect Garou's BFR. In case it happened, he wouldn't be able to come back via instant transmission.

What I mean is that the two are still separate dimensions/it's still an interdimensional feat.

No. For the otherworld, which basically just because they allow it inverse, not because it can travel to other dimensions. It's been stated before as well and there is a literal example of incapability of doing it.

That's what I mean. Cooler's page is outdated--He would have it now if he had been updated.

Thanks, though i don't see it being a problem here. It's relevant to their scaling to begin with, so it shouldn't make a difference like i said before.

Yeah, that's why I said "it's basically just 'Saiyans have no limits!' We can't quantify it, so I don't know the exact place Garou would need to outpace Cooler at before the Gete Star overloads from energy."

But he doesn't use it like that. He doesn't just appear the last millisecond or similar. He teleports and then starts the attack.

He does this for both the kick and the attack on Vegeta. Even when he catches Goku, (allowing him to make contact), he re-appears in the air and slams Goku into a mountain. We also see them generally just hit the spam button for the shockwave clashes Goku and Cooler do, with the last exchange basically showing us what exactly they were doing (moving through IT to clash with each other).

First, i see no such thing as "all Goku can feel is the hit" in the entire fight. Nothing in that fight remotely implies this. Also Goku actually turned his head and looked at him here. It's not that it isn't reactable or almost impossible to do it.

Goku couldn't keep track of Cooler and got hit in the back. While he was staring at Cooler. Though, yes, Goku notices the first punch, but it should be noted that Goku has predicted teleporters (though not IT) in the past, and later in the film Cooler outright predicts where Goku would appear. (Which you could say contradicts how he explicitly couldn't before, but I'd personally argue it's just evidence of his adaptability, as this is Cooler after he adapts to Goku.)

Can you send it please?

I'd have to download the whole film and edit it while I'm at the college campus, so not currently. That said, I can tell you the exact timestamp of it in the film if you become a pirate. (21:42). Remember, this is about Cooler being unable to see Goku moving via IT at all despite having IT.

Oh, I didn't mean the BGS but Cooler against Garou. Landing a physical attack itself would require contact, no?

Yeah, but I already mentioned that. It would fry the Cooler bodies. Then you asked "What about Cooler himself?" Dude's just a head. He's not doing anything.

That would be a superiority of Kai Kai ability. (Or that Kai's can even sense other dimensions of time like that)

Except it's explicitly noted the difference in Kai Kai and IT is merely lack of sensory needs. Meaning that regular IT should get the job done. (And the reason GT Goku couldn't IT himself out is because his IT is broken in his kid body without SSJ4 or extra Ki that transcends the limit of his Kid Body to use ordinary IT.)

But Characters like Goku is shown to be incapable of doing it. They wouldn't scale to those who can.

He's never shown himself incapable, though. Goku has teleported across the Macrocosm generally across Z, GT Goku couldn't in that specific instance because of his inability to use IT without SSJ4 in general, and even later in the S17 Arc when he couldn't escape Hell it's made clear that it's due to the funny shenanigans happening in Space-Time due to Negative Karma warping the fabric of reality, as King Yemma's Law Manipulation also failed to transport anyone to Earth but could transport people across the other dimensions. (Also, Goku outright Teleports into Hell during Bio-Broly, using the exact same Teleportation Zone as he did in the Original Broly Movie). Generally speaking, IT has successfully demonstrated interdimensional ability, even to the edge of the Macrocosm to Dimensions that "Orbit" other Dimensions, like the Land of the Kais.

And this is also the Garou who was on the verge of using time travel.

Even the psuedo-time stop stuff would likely get copied. And after that Garou is going to just invent his own time travel technique.

I fully think that's possible.

Btw instant transmission requires a hand gesture while the portals are actually thought-based. And again, Garou could just copy that too.

Untrue. Especially in this film.

Unquantifiable amps don't really match up to Garou who had quantifiable jumps of getting tens of times stronger in a brief fight. And adding in the speed difference that would accumulate on top of that.

An unquantifiable amp could be getting 1.1x stronger, 1.2x stronger, etc.

Valid.

Also, correct me if I'm wrong, but in Dragons Ball, don't they treat things like 10x and 20x amps over the opponent as it being some absolutely crazy and unbeatable multiplier? Such as Kaoi-ken and the super Saiyan forms?

Yesn't. Generally minor gaps in PLs in earlier Sagas lead to pretty big disparities. Issue is that this stops happening as much later, (not explicitly, but more implicitly) and PLs aren't linear. That said, from the quanifiable data we do have, you're completely right.

 

[ShiftCtrlAltDeleteTabFn]

Genos was able to resist Garo's radiation by being a cyborg, so can Meta-Cooler resist it for the same reason?

 

[MrTayman616]

What I mean is that the two are still separate dimensions/are interdimensional.

The verse does apply it in a different way. The difference between other world and other dimension(basically rules). But it isn't normal dimensional travel, very specific one. I'm just saying it wouldn't let him escape from the one Garou sends him.

That's what I mean. Cooler's page is outdated--He would have it now if he had been updated.

Wouldn't be like that. It's not just about the page.

Yeah, that's why I said "it's basically just 'Saiyans have no limits!' We can't quantify it, so I don't know the exact place Garou would need to outpace Cooler at before the Gete Star overloads from energy."

It'd be just based on their shown AP (as their Ki scales to their stats iirc). Being above it etc.

He does this for both the kick and the attack on Vegeta. Even when he catches Goku, (allowing him to make contact), he re-appears in the air and slams Goku into a mountain. We also see them generally just hit the spam button for the shockwave clashes Goku and Cooler do, with the last exchange basically showing us what exactly they were doing (moving through IT to clash with each other).

We don't see the kick as he just appears from behind. Vegeta one didn't even happen and vague to begin with(His movement there doesn't equal to him using it that way).

IT doesn't shown to be working that way. That fight doesn't show it at all.

Goku couldn't keep track of Cooler and got hit in the back. While he was staring at Cooler. Though, yes, Goku notices the first punch, but it should be noted that Goku has predicted teleporters (though not IT) in the past, and later in the film Cooler outright predicts where Goku would appear. (Which you could say contradicts how he explicitly couldn't before, but I'd personally argue it's just evidence of his adaptability, as this is Cooler after he adapts to Goku.)

The man literally teleported to his back and kick him. Goku not being able to respond to that doesn't mean anything at all. He literally reacted to the same IT attack before that.

Not to mention Goku uses IT after Cooler comes back to the normal space, which shows he can actually perceive it happening to begin with. There is no instantaneous attack or something similar based on this. At least not shown.

I'd have to download the whole film and edit it while I'm at the college campus, so not currently. That said, I can tell you the exact timestamp of it in the film if you become a pirate. (21:42). Remember, this is about Cooler being unable to see Goku moving via IT at all despite having IT.

I'll check it

Except it's explicitly noted the difference in Kai Kai and IT is merely lack of sensory needs. Meaning that regular IT should get the job done. (And the reason GT Goku couldn't IT himself out is because his IT is broken in his kid body without SSJ4 or extra Ki that transcends the limit of his Kid Body to use ordinary IT.)

You misunderstood me. Characters are incapable of sensing others in other spaces like that, which is why they simply can't teleport. It applies to every other dimension except the other world as it is connected to the universe in a special way.

The technique itself isn't the problem. Simply the limitation of the characters which we don't see Goku or Cooler being able to use it like that as well. He just wouldn't be able to escape from the dimension Garou sends him.

He's never shown himself incapable, though. Goku has teleported across the Macrocosm generally across Z, GT Goku couldn't in that specific instance because of his inability to use IT without SSJ4 in general, and even later in the S17 Arc when he couldn't escape Hell it's made clear that it's due to the funny shenanigans happening in Space-Time due to Negative Karma warping the fabric of reality, as King Yemma's Law Manipulation also failed to transport anyone to Earth but could transport people across the other dimensions. (Also, Goku outright Teleports into Hell during Bio-Broly, using the exact same Teleportation Zone as he did in the Original Broly Movie). Generally speaking, IT has successfully demonstrated interdimensional ability, even to the edge of the Macrocosm to Dimensions that "Orbit" other Dimensions, like the Land of the Kais.

Like i said before. It's because of DB's universe being connected.

Most of the characters, including Goku, is incapable of sensing it from another dimension of time. But the places in the macrocosm, they have a special connection. That doesn't mean anything for the dimension Garou would send him.

Genos was able to resist Garo's radiation by being a cyborg, so can Meta-Cooler resist it for the same reason?

That's a resistance for Genos rather than Meta-Cooler.

 

[Jaynic1]

Garou fra

 

[TiltedFN]

The verse does apply it in a different way. The difference between other world and other dimension(basically rules). But it isn't normal dimensional travel, very specific one. I'm just saying it wouldn't let him escape from the one Garou sends him.

Otherworld is a different spacetime altogether and Goku can teleport to it. Nothing is "Connected" so I have absolutely no idea what you're talking about. It has interdimensional range so Cooler can get out.

You misunderstood me. Characters are incapable of sensing others in other spaces like that, which is why they simply can't teleport. It applies to every other dimension except the other world as it is connected to the universe in a special way.

Wrong, it's just for specific spaces in Dragon Ball that have this issue regarding sensory capabilities. Goku can teleport to the otherworld, living realm, and the kaioshin realm which are all separate spacetimes. This is a nothing point. Cooler can come back no issue even IF he got trapped, which he won't. Kai Kai is just I.T without the need of sensory. If and I.T user can sense energy, they can go anywhere they please.

A bunch of clones will just be jumping Garou in Zero time with I.T and get completely overwhelemed.

 

[Jaynic1]

A bunch of clones will just be jumping Garou in Zero time with I.T and get completely overwhelemed.

The technique is activated in normal time in front of him, garou can copy it. Even if he cant, he could just spam his nuclear attacks so the moment they appear back in reality they get obliterated.

 

[MrTayman616]

Otherworld is a different spacetime altogether and Goku can teleport to it. Nothing is "Connected" so I have absolutely no idea what you're talking about. It has interdimensional range so Cooler can get out.

Goku can teleport to the otherworld, living realm, and the kaioshin realm which are all separate spacetimes. This is a nothing point. Cooler can come back no issue even IF he got trapped, which he won't. Kai Kai is just I.T without the need of sensory. If and I.T user can sense energy, they can go anywhere they please.

Those locations have the statements of being capable to be traveled to via instant transmission.

It's clearly stated that they can't sense others because they were fighting in a "different dimension of time". That's the reason, which the statement iself is quite clear.

It's not about what you call space-time, but the limitation the verse puts here. Saying "But it's a space-time" is irrelevant. It's a limit in the settings. The exceptions are the locations like Otherworld, not the opposite.

 

[TiltedFN]

Those locations have the statements of being capable to be traveled to via instant transmission.

They can be traveled to since instant transmission (which is just teleportation) has the ability to bypass that limitation and go to different dimensions.

It's clearly stated that they can't sense others because they were fighting in a "different dimension of time". That's the reason, which the statement iself is quite clear.

We went over this in a crt where people tried to use this exact same logic lmao. The ROSAT completely shuts you out from all others which is stated by Goku. That puts a limit on whose energy they can sense. Otherwise they can go wherever.

It's not about what you call space-time, but the limitation the verse puts here. Saying "But it's a space-time" is irrelevant. It's a limit in the settings. The exceptions are the locations like Otherworld, not the opposite.

There is no rule or limitation that the verse puts. The limitation is just on the ability itself. We have seen countless times that characters using I.T have interdimensional travel. They can go to other dimensions and they can sense others in other dimensions. This feels like 3-A DBS all over again. It being a spacetime is relevant here since its the whole reason interdimensional range and abilities exist. There are no exceptions. Kibito kai was surprised that Goku could get there in the first place. I.T just has interdimensional capabilities, simple as that. I won't be talking about this irrelevant point any further.

 

[TiltedFN]

The technique is activated in normal time in front of him, garou can copy it. Even if he cant, he could just spam his nuclear attacks so the moment they appear back in reality they get obliterated.

Would Garou copy it straight away? If not, then Cooler starting out with higher AP just smacks him around and kills him since he has no reason to toy with Garou especially since he can scan the energy coming from him. Even if Garou copes it, that doesn't mean he can counter getting hit in Zero time by multiple clones. And by multiple, I mean hundreds of clones that cooler can decide to use any time he needs to do it. He'll also be adapating via his RE which makes it even worse for Garou even WITH AD.

 

[Jaynic1]

Would Garou copy it straight away? If not, then Cooler starting out with higher AP just smacks him around and kills him since he has no reason to toy with Garou especially since he can scan the energy coming from him. Even if Garou copes it, that doesn't mean he can counter getting hit in Zero time by multiple clones. And by multiple, I mean hundreds of clones that cooler can decide to use any time he needs to do it. He'll also be adapating via his RE which makes it even worse for Garou even WITH AD.

He will copy it as soon as he sees its worth having, probably after experiencing it once since it is pretty strong. As for AP and growth, I dont think cooler compares in this section, garou can immeadetyly copy coolers stats to match him and then continue growing from there, even with cooler also growing at best he will just be always equal to garou since garou will be copying him the moment he surpasses him. Coolers number advantage gets mitigated by garous nuclear aoe since cooler doesnt resist the heat nor radiation.

 

[Kazuma_kuwabara]

He will copy it as soon as he sees its worth having, probably after experiencing it once since it is pretty strong. As for AP and growth, I dont think cooler compares in this section, garou can immeadetyly copy coolers stats to match him and then continue growing from there, even with cooler also growing at best he will just be always equal to garou since garou will be copying him the moment he surpasses him. Coolers number advantage gets mitigated by garous nuclear aoe since cooler doesnt resist the heat nor radiation.

Any Supernova that Cooler lands in zero time one shots Garou and will atomize him, even if the nuclear radiation kills him, Cooler is appearing with the attack on hand just to explode it near him

Now add hundreds of supernovas

Garou is not copying nor surviving that

Inconclusive for me if Garou finds the Gete star quickly and wins, if not, Cooler overwhelms with IT tactics and Supernova is a massive amp

 

[Kachon123]

Garou is not copying nor surviving that

Why not lol

 

[MrTayman616]

They can be traveled to since instant transmission (which is just teleportation) has the ability to bypass that limitation and go to different dimensions.

Yes. I didn't say Instant Transmission isn't able to do it.

We went over this in a crt where people tried to use this exact same logic lmao. The ROSAT completely shuts you out from all others which is stated by Goku. That puts a limit on whose energy they can sense. Otherwise they can go wherever.

Can you send the link please?

Never heard about it before, nor in that context.

Would Garou copy it straight away? If not, then Cooler starting out with higher AP just smacks him around and kills him since he has no reason to toy with Garou especially since he can scan the energy coming from him. Even if Garou copes it, that doesn't mean he can counter getting hit in Zero time by multiple clones. And by multiple, I mean hundreds of clones that cooler can decide to use any time he needs to do it. He'll also be adapating via his RE which makes it even worse for Garou even WITH AD.

Can he even physically interact with him? Garou's radiation is instant death level at point blank distance.

There is no "hitting in zero time". While he 's able to prepare for the attack, he comes back and then launches it.It's shown to be that way almost the entire fight(didn't watch the movie, so dunno if there are some extra unmentioned moments)

Garou has other things in his arsenal like black holes and divine energy based nuclear fists which can handle them easily as well.

 

[Jaynic1]

Any Supernova that Cooler lands in zero time one shots Garou and will atomize him, even if the nuclear radiation kills him, Cooler is appearing with the attack on hand just to

For the supernova to oneshot garou he would need to be weaker or equal to cooler. Hes straight up not going to be weaker than him as he can use power mimicry to instantly become as strong as him and according to phoenks and redreapers conversation garous jumps are superior to coolers own RE so unless his very first move is IT + supernova not only is it not oneshotting him if it lands but he wont even be able to make it just appear near him. He will have already copied IT and not only perfected it but also elevated it.

Now add hundreds of supernovas

Could probably just escape this with his own dimensional travel that cooler wouldnt have acess to. And like I said unless he uses supernova right at the start his speed will also be slower than garous

Inconclusive for me if Garou finds the Gete star quickly and wins, if not, Cooler overwhelms with IT tactics and Supernova is a massive amp

How would he go about finding the star?

 

[Viktorian97]

Is the gamma ray burst Garou's starting move? If not, I can't think of how he would keep up with the dozens of coolers without being overwhelmed really quickly and maybe just dying (lots of clones with higher AP and a handful of supernovas).

Cooler IT zero time stuff seems WAY more reliable than garou's portals. But, garou being able to just copy it + explosive growth would turn the tides

Also, the big gete star seems more of a disadvantage to cooler than anything xD

 

[ShiftCtrlAltDeleteTabFn]

That's a resistance for Genos rather than Meta-Cooler.

Ok, I guess.

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

I'm gonna vote Incon personally.

 

[StekFence]

How would he go about finding the star?

How would he not??? It’s huge???

 

[Jaynic1]

How would he not??? It’s huge???

I thought it was hidden or something.

 

[Kachon123]

I thought it was hidden or something.

 

[RedReaper616]

Those locations have the statements of being capable to be traveled to via instant transmission.

That's not because of the Dimension, that's because of IT itself.

The Afterlife and Living Worlds are "separated," by "space-time," with the Afterlife being a place that "only the dead and those in Heaven can enter," as well as "transcends dimensions." From there the Kaioshin Realm is a "different dimension" from those two. The Dimensions of the Macrocosm are separated by the Overarching Subspace, that lacks Space and Time. Additionally, we know that Ki can affect the Dimensions of the Macrocosm, as you just distort space, and this "Dimension Hole" can be used not just on HTC (which is one of the Subspaces within Overarching Subspace), but affects Dimensions in general and treats them as comparable, as seen with Buuhan.

It's not that the realms specifically let IT in and work differently. It's because they're literally different dimensions and IT is the only thing that exists that travel dimensions (outside of the Angels' Warp and what was recently revealed in Daima with the giant interdimensional portal fish).

Speaking outside of the Toei Continuity for a bit, Warp allows characters to travel across different Macrocosms, the Zeno Palace, etc. And we're shown that Kai Kai can teleport users to some of those same locations. Verbatim. And like mentioned prior, IT and Kai Kai are treated as identical, but that IT has the limit of Sensing Ki whereas Kai Kai is wherever you imagine. Even back in the Toei Anime, we see Kai Kai use the Instant Transmission Subspace. (Meaning there is literally no reason to assume that Cooler's IT wouldn't work). Considering one of the very limits to getting to the Supreme Kai World is teleportation that traverses dimensions, like Kibito's, (as you yourself linked, which ALSO compares IT to it), I don't see how that implies Otherworld (and the Land of the Kais) has some special "Instant Transmission Weakness."

(Also, the fact HTC cuts people off from the rest of the Macrocosm is something brought up in the Granolah Arc, where the Wish for the Strongest didn't apply to Frieza due to not existing "In the Universe." Mind you, Eternal Dragons also can use their power across Dimensions, like when Porunga revived Vegeta and Earth {and brought their Souls from Otherworld back}. The HTC is unique in that it as a Dimension severes ties, and it's never indicative to be due to it's Space-Time. It's just something the HTC has.)

How would he not??? It’s huge???

Yeah, anyone saying the BGS would be hard for Garou to figure out is off their rocker. Garou would definitely be able to see and hear (whatever else) that far, and the BGS is a massive, planet-draining tumor. It would not be that hard, at all, for Garou to figure something "strange" is going on with the giant metal parasite on the planet and that the Coolers come from it.

 

[TiltedFN]

Anyways my vote is for Cooler if I hadn't made that clear.

 

[Jaynic1]

Is the gamma ray burst Garou's starting move? If not, I can't think of how he would keep up with the dozens of coolers without being overwhelmed really quickly and maybe just dying (lots of clones with higher AP and a handful of supernovas).

Cooler IT zero time stuff seems WAY more reliable than garou's portals. But, garou being able to just copy it + explosive growth would turn the tides

Also, the big gete star seems more of a disadvantage to cooler than anything xD

Well his first move would be to create multiple massive nuclear explosions that would vape all the coolers sine they dont resist its radiation or heat. The grb wouldnt be far behind after that. The moment garou realises cooler has a slight ap advantage he would just copy his stats to be equal and then surpass him from there.

And ye the gete star is huge, garou could just teleport there and nuke it.

 

[Epiccheev]

What if Garou starts inside the cooler.

 

[RedReaper616]

Cooler yells at him for invading his personal space and then tries to have an intense therapy session (he melts into nothing the moment he tries):

 

[Arkansalter2]

What if Garou starts inside the cooler.

Pardon?

 

[CastoriceTheFifth]

What if Garou starts inside the cooler.

 

[StekFence]

The cooler would get quite warm considering his radiation