Maou Gakuin Discussion Thread

[Jackofalltrades_1]

I’ll take anything i can for now Lol. I can reread them when the official translations are out.

The OTL (Official Translation) is only up to that volume, there's no other translation available unless you can read JP or are willing to read MTL.

 

[EL_xWatcher1234x]

I don’t understand why you’re comparing concepts to the legends that birth the spirits when spirits are solely dependent on their lore to exist. Their “lore” is a fundamental aspect of a spirit. Without it, they cease to exist, it’s that simple. Just the word “fundamental” alone already debunks your argument. I don’t know why you brought up concepts when we’re talking about spirits, not gods.

Isn't the source a concept?

Their "lore" is a collection of info type 1.

Yeah no, you’re actually acting as if AE can’t also be linked to IM2. And are you actually just ignoring scans? Their source is a 100% connected to their lore, just that destroying their source would be irrelevant as long as their lore/rumors remain. And I don’t know if you know this, but i’m almost certain spirits have AE1.

Never said anything about Info 2 not being AE. Their lore is information type 1 and they themselves are not the lore which make them AE type 2 and their ability to ressurect from it fit in with AE type 2.

Again, how is something that’s literally stated to be a fundamental information that shapes a characters being, not be IM2?

Where was it ever stated to be fundamental information?

And no one was arguing for that what? I’m pretty sure no one was arguing that a spirits physical body is what’s IM2. Their lore is what makes up their Source, and because of that we can conclude that their source is also IM2. It’s literally not that hard to understand.

No, unless someone prove that the source is info, which I can't seem to find.

No. All spirits have AE1 not 2. And so why are you making this argument? No one is saying that “Oh, this character hit a spirit, he must have IM2!!”. I’m pretty sure every single MG character who has a profile can affect a spirits source and therefore grant them IM2 interaction.

Like I said anove it should be changed to AE2.

It’s simply not our fault that you couldn’t understand the justifications used in the profiles. Seriously, how many times are we gonna keep repeating this?

There is nothing to justify it. Literally all you got is a perfect example of info type 1.

So? How is that an anti-feat?

It prove that these "information" are knowledge/memory(type 1)

 

[ROZAN-U]

Snip

Idk why are you wasting your time here.
If you're absolutely confident ,you should make a removal thread.

 

[ZillionZeutron]

Isn't the source a concept?

It is, but what relevance does that have on spirits? You phrased that first part of your argument badly, that’s why I told you to rephrase. I don’t know why you’re forcing the source of spirits to only fit CM1 when it also fits IM2. Just their “lore” being a fundamental aspect that births their existence alone proves your argument wrong.

Their "lore" is a collection of info type 1.

Wrong, it’s IM2. I wont bother with this any longer, I already told you why it’s not. Make a thread if you really want to downgrade it. It’ll fail in the end anyway. Their “lore” is IM2 based on the fact that they exist in reality, they form a physical body with their “lore”. If it really was IM1, it would just be mental stuff and they shouldn’t physically exist.

Never said anything about Info 2 not being AE.

You were framing it as if AE couldn’t also be linked to type 2. I was just pointing it out.

Their lore is information type 1 and they themselves are not the lore which make them AE type 2 and their ability to ressurect from it fit in with AE type 2.

Sigh, their lore is IM2 based on what I said above (the supporters can probably make a better explanation for it), their lore is IM2, their source is made from their lore, therefore we can conclude that their source is also IM2 and anyone who can affect/interact with their source has IM2 Interaction.

Where was it ever stated to be fundamental information?

Doesn’t the scans quite literally say that their lore is a fundamental aspect that makes a spirit what it is?

No, unless someone prove that the source is info, which I can't seem to find.

You must be searching with your eyes closed then

Like I said anove it should be changed to AE2.

Nope. Make a downgrade thread like what Rozan said. It’ll fail in the same way that thread failed.

There is nothing to justify it. Literally all you got is a perfect example of info type 1.

Wont bother with you any longer. I already addressed your argument above, i’ll make a more detailed and complete reply if you really plan on getting it removed, though.

It prove that these "information" are knowledge/memory(type 1)

Disagree FRA fr.

 

[EL_xWatcher1234x]

It is, but what relevance does that have on spirits? You phrased that first part of your argument badly, that’s why I told you to rephrase. I don’t know why you’re forcing the source of spirits to only fit CM1 when it also fits IM2. Just their “lore” being a fundamental aspect that births their existence alone proves your argument wrong.

Wrong, it’s IM2. I wont bother with this any longer, I already told you why it’s not. Make a thread if you really want to downgrade it. It’ll fail in the end anyway. Their “lore” is IM2 based on the fact that they exist in reality, they form a physical body with their “lore”. If it really was IM1, it would just be mental stuff and they shouldn’t physically exist.



You were framing it as if AE couldn’t also be linked to type 2. I was just pointing it out.

Sigh, their lore is IM2 based on what I said above (the supporters can probably make a better explanation for it), their lore is IM2, their source is made from their lore, therefore we can conclude that their source is also IM2 and anyone who can affect/interact with their source has IM2 Interaction.

Doesn’t the scans quite literally say that their lore is a fundamental aspect that makes a spirit what it is?

You must be searching with your eyes closed then

Nope. Make a downgrade thread like what Rozan said. It’ll fail in the same way that thread failed.

Wont bother with you any longer. I already addressed your argument above, i’ll make a more detailed and complete reply if you really plan on getting it removed, though.

Disagree FRA fr.

All of this and you couldn't bring a single statment of "fundamental information".

 

[ZillionZeutron]

All of this and you couldn't bring a single statment of "fundamental information".

I never said anything about a scan outright saying “fundamental information”. I said that the “lore” of a spirit is a fundamental information that is needed for them to exist.

You quite literally just failed to read my comment.

 

[ROZAN-U]

All of this and you couldn't bring a single statment of "fundamental information".

Make a thread already and end the maou wank.

Just make sure to read the previous removal threads(my gut says your thread will get closed for bringing the already debunked topic.)

Also,Source=Fundamental aspect.
Lore and rumors is an information that forms a fundamental aspect.
Guess what it means for lore now.

 

[Grabbing_dragon]

Where was it ever stated to be fundamental information?

You should probably stop just saying fundamental information since it is misleading, as there are different levels. What you are saying is true, for information it is the "building block" of reality part, for concepts it is whatness of reality (what reality is) , for laws, rules how reality works, etc. All of them you can put the word fundamental, but they are fundamental for different reasons.

I never said anything about a scan outright saying “fundamental information”. I said that the “lore” of a spirit is a fundamental information that is needed for them to exist.

The word fundamental for spirits in this context fits the concept more, as they get their whatness from legends and rumor, which their source will be based on.

 

[ZillionZeutron]

The word fundamental for spirits in this context fits the concept more, as they get their whatness from legends and rumor, which their source will be based on.

I don’t know why you think it wouldn’t be both at the same time, this isn’t same case with DDLC where everything is covered by code (IM2) and that’s why their CM got removed. What births a spirit? It’s their lore (legends, rumors, folktales etc), their lore is information that makes up what they are. That is blatantly just IM.

EDIT: I will be going out for a while, so forgive me if I can’t immediately reply responses.

 

[Grabbing_dragon]

I don’t know why you think it wouldn’t be both at the same time, this isn’t same case with DDLC where everything is covered by code (IM2) and that’s why their CM got removed. What births a spirit? It’s their lore (legends, rumors, folktales etc), their lore is information that makes up what they are. That is blatantly just IM.

Because information here is knowledge about them, about what they are. If they are forgotten, they will cease to exist as spirits. Essentially, it is a special condition for spirits to dependent on knowledge of about them in order to exist, whereas we humans are independent of whether others know us. We don’t need people to know us in order to exist. This comes from someone who also has a verse that knows how to define what a concept is, but not information type 2. My arguments are the same as yours, but they don’t qualify.

EDIT: I will be going out for a while, so forgive me if I can’t immediately reply responses.

all good, time to enjoy isekai at peace

 

[ThienDe01]

Even though I've read through many discussions about this, I think the only source of the spirit is AE1 information type 2/story because the source of the spirit is rumor and legend.

“Spirits are formed from rumors and legends. In most cases, spirits are born from widespread rumors or famous legends and are fully developed at birth, but this isn’t the case for half-spirit, half-demon children. The spirit source is influenced by the demon half of their body. A newly created, weak rumor forms their source.”

“This was a lie. He lied about the child of the Great Spirit Reno. There was no child born between Reno and Shin, and Misa’s spirit lore was not the order to destroy the Demon King. The legend of Avos Dilhevia is the lore that formed her source.”

As for the spirit itself, I see it as only AE2 when the spirit is created by the source and is changed when the source (aka rumor and legend) changes.

“If Avos Dilhevia were to be replaced by a spirit with the same name, Misa would be able to live in harmony with her spirit heart. Spirits change as their legends and rumors change, so achieving this wouldn’t be impossible. The problem there, however, is that spirits are most influenced by the original lore at the point of their birth.”

“They say you’re wilting,” I said.

“Yes, that’s right. I am fading. I will never again resurrect.” “Does that mean your lore has ceased to exist?”

A gentle chuckle echoed through the forest. “It seems there is something I can teach you besides the ways of war,” Migelonov said happily. “If a rumor or legend comes to an end, the spirit born from that lore will pass away. But one more situation can result in a spirit’s death: when that spirit turns against their own lore.”

Spirits lived according to the rumors and legends from which they were born. Just like how Gennul was the Wolf of Hiding and Ennunien was the Great Tree of Learning, all spirits lived their lives accordingly.''

Even the existence of spirits is completely dependent on source.

“Reno...” Shin murmured.

“The mother of all spirits faded away by going against her lore, giving birth to a demon. But the Great Spirit Avos Dilhevia has now regained her original form as a spirit, as the legends foretold.”

Avos Dilhevia was no longer half spirit, half demon. She was a pureblood spirit called Misa.

“And so, there is no reason for the Great Spirit Reno to have faded away at all.”

Reno defying her lore was now a thing of the past. As long as the new lore didn’t fade away, they could revive over and over again.

“M-Mother?”

 

[ElPapucho80]

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

Just make the downgrade thread.

 

[Huesito88]

Just make the downgrade thread.

And you'll agree with it right? ()

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

And you'll agree with it right? ()

Only if Tatsumi and Kuma defends it.

 

[Tatsumi504]

Because information here is knowledge about them, about what they are. If they are forgotten, they will cease to exist as spirits. Essentially, it is a special condition for spirits to dependent on knowledge of about them in order to exist

You would be right except you are missing two things.

“The power of a spirit originates from a current rumor or feeling. In other words, that rumor or feeling shapes their source. That is why supplying you with magic directly won’t alter your condition.”

I tried sending Sheila some magic, but she showed no signs of recovery. That was to be expected though, since rewinding time had also been ineffective. With her source in this state, even reincarnation would be ineffective.

“Another spirit may be able to lend you their power.”

“You mean I can share my magic with Lay’s mom?” Misa asked.

“Yes. But it won’t work with regular magic. Even if a half spirit tried to send magic as one normally would, the result wouldn’t differ from my own.”

“Then what can I do...?”

“Your source is shaped by a rumor or legend. That means that rumor or legend has taken on a kind of power within you that gets converted into your source. If I link your source to Sheila’s, you may be able to send your power to her before it undergoes that conversion, helping her recover to some extent.”

We made our way to the other side of the fog to see a completely transformed Aharthern. Every plant of the once lush forest had wilted, and the screams of fleeing spirits rang through the air. Huge beasts with silver fur and sharp fangs were dashing about the forest. And there were far more than just one or two—they were everywhere, gnawing away at the trees. The green rapidly wilted wherever they passed. They were devouring the spirit itself.

“Watch out!”

“Our lore will be eaten!”

“We’ll die!”

“Even spirits can die!”

Rumors, lore, legend etc. is information (knowledge) which is type 1 however, this knowledge gets converted into something fundamental- type 2- before becoming the source of a spirit and the spirit itself. Not only their sources, their bodies too are formed from this.

 

[Grabbing_dragon]

You would be right except you are missing two things.


Rumors, lore, legend etc. is information (knowledge) which is type 1 however, this knowledge gets converted into something fundamental- type 2- before becoming the source of a spirit and the spirit itself. Not only their sources, their bodies too are formed from this.

They are fundamental due to being the origin, source, and very definition of the entire existence of spirits, which is not in a way that matters for information type 2, which is information being the building block of existence, since there’s a difference between why something exists and what it is made of.

 

[ThienDe01]

information type 2, which is information being the building block of existence,

Source of spirit is indeed Information type 2 when source is what makes characters, including spirits.

It was the truth, but Leorg didn’t seem inclined to believe it. After all, magic is born from each individual’s source. These sources reside within our bodies, beyond our souls, beyond our spirits—deep within the abyss. It’s what makes us who we are. When sources of different classes face each other, fear of the greater source can make one’s magic go berserk.

“Spirits are formed from rumors and legends. In most cases, spirits are born from widespread rumors or famous legends and are fully developed at birth, but this isn’t the case for half-spirit, half-demon children. The spirit source is influenced by the demon half of their body. A newly created, weak rumor forms their source.”

 

[Grabbing_dragon]

Source of spirit is indeed Information type 2 when source is what makes characters, including spirits.

The first one is essence and the second one is origin, which don’t prove information is the building block of reality.

 

[Tatsumi504]

They are fundamental due to being the origin, source, and very definition of the entire existence of spirits, which is not in a way that matters for information type 2, which is information being the building block of existence, since there’s a difference between why something exists and what it is made of.

and the spirit is made of the lore. They not only exist because of their lore (why they exist), they are made up of their lore as well hence Anos saying their lore was being devoured by the divine beasts even with the knowledge of them still existing.

Your thought process;
Rumors and Lore exist > Spirit is spawned, hence it is why they exist

As against;
Rumors and Lore exist > Rumors get converted to something fundamental > Fundamental lore constructs the source and body of the spirit.

Type 1 is the "why they exist", type 2 is the building block of their existence which forms them as well as affects the reality surrounding the spirit without the spirit doing anything which is the reason Avos Dilhevia is the demon king and all of Anos subordinates were in her servitude, Reno is the mother of all spirits (not a mother figure nor seen as one but their actual other) without being the first spirit and giving birth to all spirits, Gennul is a wolf that doesn't exist to a person visually observing him etc.

 

[ThienDe01]

The first one is essence and the second one is origin, which don’t prove information is the building block of reality.

Why not when the source of spirit is rumor (information), and that information creates spirit as I have demonstrated?

“Spirits are formed from rumors and legends. In most cases, spirits are born from widespread rumors or famous legends and are fully developed at birth, but this isn’t the case for half-spirit, half-demon children. The spirit source is influenced by the demon half of their body. A newly created, weak rumor forms their source.”

“This was a lie. He lied about the child of the Great Spirit Reno. There was no child born between Reno and Shin, and Misa’s spirit lore was not the order to destroy the Demon King. The legend of Avos Dilhevia is the lore that formed her source.”

 

[Grabbing_dragon]

and the spirit is made of the lore. They not only exist because of their lore (why they exist), they are made up of their lore as well hence Anos saying their lore was being devoured by the divine beasts even with the knowledge of them still existing.

Your thought process;
Rumors and Lore exist > Spirit is spawned, hence it is why they exist

As against;
Rumors and Lore exist > Rumors get converted to something fundamental > Fundamental lore constructs the source and body of the spirit.

Type 1 is the "why they exist", type 2 is the building block of their existence which forms them as well as affects the reality surrounding the spirit without the spirit doing anything which is the reason Avos Dilhevia is the demon king and all of Anos subordinates were in her servitude, Reno is the mother of all spirits (not a mother figure nor seen as one but their actual other) without being the first spirit and giving birth to all spirits, Gennul is a wolf that doesn't exist to a person visually observing him etc.

Which scan proves the building block? If it is ‘Spirits are formed from rumors and legends,’ that basically means, from the context, rumors and legends make spirits begin to exist.

That is vague, I will just take from the context I have. If spirits are lore itself or embodiment of it, how exactly is it their building block? In that sense, it makes sense that eating a spirit itself is eating their lore.

We made our way to the other side of the fog to see a completely transformed Aharthern. Every plant of the once lush forest had wilted, and the screams of fleeing spirits rang through the air. Huge beasts with silver fur and sharp fangs were dashing about the forest. And there were far more than just one or two—they were everywhere, gnawing away at the trees. The green rapidly wilted wherever they passed. They were devouring the spirit itself. “Watch out!” “Our lore will be eaten!” “We’ll die!” “Even spirits can die!”

 

[ThienDe01]

Which scan proves the building block? If it is ‘Spirits are formed from rumors and legends,’ that basically means, from the context, rumors and legends make spirits begin to exist.

you are right, rumor is what creates spirit so spirit can start to exist, it qualifies for info 2 when it creates some object

 

[Tatsumi504]

If it is ‘Spirits are formed from rumors and legends,’ that basically means, from the context, rumors and legends make spirits begin to exist.

That is vague, I will just take from the context I have. If spirits are lore itself or embodiment of it, how exactly is it their building block? In that sense, it makes sense that eating a spirit itself is eating their lore

Umm, no. The divine beasts weren't eating them the way one would eat something edible for sustenance. They were draining their lore- without affecting peoples knowledge of it- from the spirits itself just by being near them, touching them or their powers.. Biting Gennul was just a bonus, they wouldn't be beasts without shredding, ripping and mauling something.
Placing emphasis on how Titi says they will "die" if their lore is devoured not "be destroyed" shows their sources weren't affected so the lore being devoured was their bodies. The beasts power to devour a spirits lore doesn't affect the source, the gods are unaffected (so concepts, law, fate and other abstract existences surrounding "order" are ruled out) things made up of physical matter are unaffected, peoples knowledge and memories are unaffected so it only affects spiritual existences in the sense of what a spirit is.
If I break it down further, the source can be split into 3 pseudo sources namely the heart, vessel and magic power. Aharthern is a spirit that has no magic power yet it's lore too was being devoured so you can further rule out magic power/lifeforce being what the beasts were absorbing.

No rudeness intended but this is a "you" issue. It seems to me that for you, you're unable to associate how they are the lore or its embodiment themselves with the same lore being their building block however we are shown the transformation process of said lore into the said building block case in point being Sheila's body slowly recovering from looking like a typical ghost into something ore physical

Spirits don't begin to exist just because rumors exist. Not every rumor automatically births a spirit that transformation process is involved so unlike how you understand it, they don't just spawn randomly.

The context tells us that type 1 info is transformed into something fundamental (type 2) before it constructs the source and body of a spirit. Spirits literally drain their source whenever they use their powers but it is immediately reconstructed by the transformed lore

“Crafting a spell is easy. The problem is that it’s untested. Sending Sheila the power of a different tale could potentially have an adverse effect.”

At worst, she would die. But if she was already prepared for that, that would be a risk worth taking.

“It could also be dangerous for you, Misa. If my suspicions are correct, spirits drain both their source and their magic to cast spirit magic.”

After witnessing Misa use Fuska on several occasions, I was fairly certain that was the case⁠—even more so considering most half spirits were said to struggle to get to their feet after using spirit magic.

“The depleted source of a spirit recovers through the strength of their rumor or legend. In other words, Misa, you will be casting spirit magic to purposefully deplete your source, triggering its recovery. It is that recovery power that will then be sent to Sheila.”

 

[ThienDe01]

Everyone, can you tell me what the bold part in this excerpt means? The word "form" will belong to which of the following cases?

He had a point. Venuzdonoa had a time limit—it couldn’t keep destroying the order of nihility for eternity. No magic could stop order from returning to its original form forever. When the sword was sheathed, reason would return, the normal order of things would resume, and the nothingness left behind would form Graham once again.

Call the initial state of Graham's source Nothingness 1, the state after being destroyed by Venuzdonoa the first time is Nothingness 2.
1. Nothingness 2 will reincarnate Nothingness 1, and source Graham = Nothingness 1 even after being destroyed by Venuzdonoa many times because it will be reincarnated by Nothingness 2.
2. Source Graham = Nothingness 2. If destroyed again then source Graham = Nothingness 3 and continues indefinitely.

 

[ElPapucho80]

 

[Ddzn]

MEOCD has same powers chaotic galaxy Chaos. Amur can blast that away with his EGA and Resists that with hatred power. Also GN is deeper magic than Chaos from I understand hence it's superior to that.
Anyway the whole point is if Anos can take the step or not. If Anos takes the steps he wins otherwise I got Amur, Zinnia and Noah cooking him. He got no other spells capable of doing anything to them

Apologies I haven’t read past this part of the thread yet so if this is cleared up later on I do apologise but I’ll say my piece.

MEOCD seems to be fundamentally different from the chaos within the galaxy, considering it’s not bounded by reason/logic compared to the galaxy. Amur doesn’t resist it either, his arm turned to light similarly to Noah, although the latter was eventually able to resist it, Amur just blew it away with EGA.

Stopping the steps won’t matter, all that they do is release the destructive power condensed within Anos’ root, which he constantly suppresses with his own power. It’s evident enough to suggest that his source will overcome attacks by any of the 3. Neverless what if he decides to stop offsetting his own magical power and release all of his source’s destructive power at once? they would all be cooked.

 

[Fyodol_Empyrean]

Uhmm.. a lott new names. Give me dem chaos

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

Apologies I haven’t read past this part of the thread yet so if this is cleared up later on I do apologise but I’ll say my piece.

MEOCD seems to be fundamentally different from the chaos within the galaxy, considering it’s not bounded by reason/logic compared to the galaxy. Amur doesn’t resist it either, his arm turned to light similarly to Noah, although the latter was eventually able to resist it, Amur just blew it away with EGA.

Stopping the steps won’t matter, all that they do is release the destructive power condensed within Anos’ root, which he constantly suppresses with his own power. It’s evident enough to suggest that his source will overcome attacks by any of the 3. Neverless what if he decides to stop offsetting his own magical power and release all of his source’s destructive power at once? they would all be cooked.

I'm really tired to argue Chaos part but Anos can't defeat Amur with Chaotic eyes. He himself stated he needs Nirvana steps. Also he was letting loose everything he had during the fight.

 

[Dereck03]

I'm really tired to argue Chaos part but Anos can't defeat Amur with Chaotic eyes. He himself stated he needs Nirvana steps. Also he was letting loose everything he had during the fight.

@Fixxed Elde is downplaying MEoCD

 

[Wesker018]

Elde is an opp

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

@Fixxed Elde is downplaying MEoCD

Elde is an opp

 

[ThienDe01]

Everyone, can you tell me what the bold part in this excerpt means? The word "form" will belong to which of the following cases?

Call the initial state of Graham's source Nothingness 1, the state after being destroyed by Venuzdonoa the first time is Nothingness 2.
1. Nothingness 2 will reincarnate Nothingness 1, and source Graham = Nothingness 1 even after being destroyed by Venuzdonoa many times because it will be reincarnated by Nothingness 2.
2. Source Graham = Nothingness 2. If destroyed again then source Graham = Nothingness 3 and continues indefinitely.

bump

 

[Wesker018]

Bro, can you tell the guys that my DS account was banned for the same reason as theirs?

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

Bro, can you tell the guys that my DS account was deleted for the same reason as theirs?

 

[ElPapucho80]

Vol 10 act 2 translation is over?

 

[ROZAN-U]

Vol 10 act 2 translation is over?

It will release next month

 

[ElPapucho80]

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

Damn what a wanker

 

[Shar122]

When tier 1?