Hollow Knight - Silksong Discussion Thread

[Armorchompy]

You do realize that if we were, say, to come back to the 10~cm or less values for main bugs, we'd basically be nerfing down the kingdom sizes to like 30-50 meters wide at best right? Shaking that kind of area can be done through a truck passing by a bit too fast.

It's not just "shaking", it's threatening to tear it down completely. And Pharloom would still be a hundred meters or more, you can't collapse a mostly stone structure that massive with anything lower than a really really high-power quake. Even if that weren't the case, the Abyss is so deep that the earthquake is clearly not that localized. Trust me, as the wiki's #1 downplayer, the feat is fine

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

You do realize that if we were, say, to come back to the 10~cm or less values for main bugs, we'd basically be nerfing down the kingdom sizes to like 30-50 meters wide at best right? Shaking that kind of area can be done through a truck passing by a bit too fast.

I really doubt it’d be that small. If we take the Knight as being about 10 cm tall, Hallownest would come out to around 145 meters wide, and Pharloom is significantly bigger.

That said, are we totally sure it’s Grandmother Silk causing the earthquakes with her power, and not the Void doing so through her threads? Hornet does call them the “black quakes” and the whole screen darkens when they happen. But Pharloom does also start collapsing in the regular ending, so maybe it is her?
I’ll need to double-check the dialogue.

The other problem is that Grandmother Silk really isn’t that strong compared to the regular enemies.
Lace managed to cut off her arm, and even Cursed Hornet, who's weaker than even the beginning of the game Hornet, can still take her down, so we end up with everyone being in the "Can destroy all of Pharloom" range of power, which feels pretty weird, ya know?

 

[Zabazab]

I’ll need to double-check the dialogue.

It's the death throes of Grand Mother Silk trying desperately to keep Lace protected from the Void. But in any case the only ones who'd scale are GMS, Hornet, Lace (GMS's artificial offspring), and maybe some other Higher Beings. Cursed Hornet is only really weaker in the sense that she cannot Bind afaik.

 

[DavidTPPM]

So many spoilers I have to ignore

 

[Armorchompy]

That said, are we totally sure it’s Grandmother Silk causing the earthquakes with her power, and not the Void doing so through her threads? Hornet does call them the “black quakes” and the whole screen darkens when they happen. But Pharloom does also start collapsing in the regular ending, so maybe it is her?
I’ll need to double-check the dialogue.

I... thought I screenshot the relevant dialogue but did not, and I can't find it right now. But I seem to remember confirmation that it is indeed her thrashing around.

The other problem is that Grandmother Silk really isn’t that strong compared to the regular enemies.
Lace managed to cut off her arm, and even Cursed Hornet, who's weaker than even the beginning of the game Hornet, can still take her down, so we end up with everyone being in the "Can destroy all of Pharloom" range of power, which feels pretty weird, ya know?

That is somewhat of a concern, although I disagree that Cursed Hornet is that weak. She's slower and weakened in some ways but I wouldn't really worry about that being the thing that breaks the scaling.

But in any case the only ones who'd scale are GMS, Hornet, Lace (GMS's artificial offspring), and maybe some other Higher Beings.

This I disagree with. There's no reason to assume the Act 3 bosses do not scale to Hornet when they are clearly meant to be giving her a tough fight outside of arbitrary skepticism. I would say anything in that field of the game that isn't just a speed bump would scale. It might also scale back to some late game HK1 bosses, Hornet has a lot more abilities now but we don't actually know if she's stronger than her HK1 self by the end of Act 2. I am a bit uneasy about scaling this many enemies to this high of a tier, but if we take the feat as legitimate there isn't a good reason to cut them off from the scaling

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

It's the death throes of Grand Mother Silk trying desperately to keep Lace protected from the Void. But in any case the only ones who'd scale are GMS, Hornet, Lace (GMS's artificial offspring), and maybe some other Higher Beings. Cursed Hornet is only really weaker in the sense that she cannot Bind afaik.

There's not really any in-universe explanation as to why Hornet would suddenly get thousands of times stronger just before the Lace fight, in anything there's stuff that just outright denies that End Game Hornet is just leagues stronger than anyone that isn't a Higher Being (Bell Eater fight and it being killed by Bell Beast) and like the dozen or so Hunter Journal comments about how this specific enemy, boss and not, "can prove even a challenge to [Hornet]"

 

[Armorchompy]

There's not really any in-universe explanation as to why Hornet would suddenly get thousands of times stronger just before the Lace fight, in anything there's stuff that just outright denies that End Game Hornet is just leagues stronger than anyone that isn't a Higher Being (Bell Eater fight and it being killed by Bell Beast) and like the dozen or so Hunter Journal comments about how this specific enemy, boss and not, "can prove even a challenge to [Hornet]"

I mean she 100% does get stronger, obviously it doesn't fully make sense to say it's by that much but at the same time I don't think it's the biggest concession to make with how blatant the feat is. At least that's if there are no contradictions, as you mention the Bell Eater/Beast thing is an issue. I dunno, it'd be a shame not to use the feat since it's a cool one, but we'll see how things go.

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

I mean she 100% does get stronger, obviously it doesn't fully make sense to say it's by that much but at the same time I don't think it's the biggest concession to make with how blatant the feat is. At least that's if there are no contradictions, as you mention the Bell Eater/Beast thing is an issue. I dunno, it'd be a shame not to use the feat since it's a cool one, but we'll see how things go.

Does she? She gets a bunch of new silk skills and the pin does get sharper, but that's about it.
There's the silk point things, but she just needs 1 to fight Lace, and Cursed Hornet can't use any of of her silk skills anyway.

There's some Hunter Journal entries about how Hornet priorities speed over power, so I do think most bosses are just outright stronger than Hornet, but she wins via skill/speed.

 

[Armorchompy]

Does she?

Meh, kinda yeah. The story makes a pretty big deal of how she needs to get her lost power back and is initially weakened, we don't really feel the gameplay effects of it but it's definitely a thing that's going on. And they also do fairly frequently emphasize how her being what she is gives her a lot of power that a lot of creatures can't hope to match, there's even a few times it's a minor plot element how durable she is (Needing to get sharper drills so the parasite can be removed from her because her shell is so tough, not just being immediately torn apart by that parasite or warped by lifeblood, being capable of even being in the Abyss thanks to her durability), her being very powerful is 100% important to the plot. She's not worlds beyond the bosses and is at risk of death against them but she's probably not actually taking two masks of damage whenever some fat bug grazes her.

 

[Armorchompy]

Regarding the cursed thing, there's an argument it's empowering her at least a bit, counteracting the fact that she's weakened. She's sickly, moves slower and can't bind but she is granted a new fairly powerful moveset, and if you get caught by the Slab jailers while cursed the tentacles will actually rip out and destroy the cage. It's obviously a nerf but it's not setting her strength back to beginning of the game status, just making her much worse at utility and endurance

 

[Zabazab]

This I disagree with.

The Clover Dancers, Khan, Nyleth, Karmelita, Lost Lace, Seth, and maybe Bell Eater then? Either way it's a situation where Hornet isn't so far beyond most bosses that they don't challenge her, but she is still of the Pale Being of the Higher Caste who can defeat Higher Beings. I do also recall achievements like getting all 3 silk hearts being named "regenerated" which implies she's back to prime after that, though it's not like your damage output ever changes across the game without needle upgrades anyway.

 

[Armorchompy]

I'd rather not click on that spoiler, I haven't yet beaten all Act 3 fights. But Seth, Khann, Nyleth, Pinstress and Crawfather are the ones I've fought, and of them all I'd say the first 3 should 100% scale, fourth probably should and fifth... feels a bit silly but I can't justify why it shouldn't.

 

[AcidSilver]

Don't think we really need to use water physics to figure out Hornet's height when Team Cherry themselves have used yards as a form of measurement on how far Hornet can throw. Would be kind of crazy for her to throw something even one yard away if she was bug sized.

 

[Galactidot]

Don't think we really need to use water physics to figure out Hornet's height when Team Cherry themselves have used yards as a form of measurement on how far Hornet can throw. Would be kind of crazy for her to throw something even one yard away if she was bug sized.

I see that one a lot, can someone remind me why we don't accept that measurement again?
(Albeit, that was posted LONG before Hollow Knights release, could be outdated)

 

[Zabazab]

I see that one a lot, can someone remind me why we don't accept that measurement again?

Question of "How far can Hornet throw her needle?" to actually show us the 30 yards. I recall someone using Hornet hookshotting across the acid in Fungal Wastes to the City of Tears entrance for a max length we see her throw.

 

[Arceus0x]

Question of "How far can Hornet throw her needle?" to actually show us the 30 yards. I recall someone using Hornet hookshotting across the acid in Fungal Wastes to the City of Tears entrance for a max length we see her throw.

Might try this one out

 

[OrangeFR]

Might try this one out

I saw a calc for that and IIRC it got the Knight and Hornet to be around 25-40 cm, not 100% sure on the exact value.

 

[Arceus0x]

With my take on the calc I'm getting 42cm just for the Knight.

 

[Arceus0x]

Hollow Knight sizes - another take

vsbattles.fandom.com

 

[Zabazab]

Hollow Knight sizes - another take

vsbattles.fandom.com

I'd link the tweet.

 

[Arceus0x]

After further discussion in pms me n Chompy decided maybe rain size is the most reliable one at the moment.

 

[Ghostimuscrime]

ts is hard

 

[Armorchompy]

After further discussion in pms me n Chompy decided maybe rain size is the most reliable one at the moment.

To elaborate on this a bit, first off the Hornet tweet is old as shit and secondly it could imply that she is just a cracked ass sniper. I mean given her hunter motif it does makes sense, and either way we don't know if the Fungal Wastes feat is the absolute limit of her capacity. In Silksong you eventually get an ability that lets Hornet cross much more than that distance, and given many of the abilities she gains in it are ones from the first game it might be something she was capable of replicating in some capacity. Too many unknowns, and while I personally really dislike the rain measurement it is at least somewhat of an objective one.

 

[Zabazab]

it might be something she was capable of replicating in some capacity.

I definitely wouldn't consider the ability you're thinking of as something for "cutting a bug down."

There's also this dialogue with the Twelfth Architect:

12A: What's this, Bug-Red? Even down here I d-d-did detect its working... Have you climbed our c-c-core, and woken the voices of my l-l-line?
Hornet: I have maker. Clearly it was a climb never intended for regular bugs, and fair fortune that the skills gifted within your lands allowed my ascent.

 

[AcidSilver]

I definitely wouldn't consider the ability you're thinking of as something for "cutting a bug down."

There's also this dialogue with the Twelfth Architect:

But are any of the non Hollow Knight skills even needed to reach Twelfth Architect? Outside of the wall jump I'm pretty sure that any abilities you can get by that point are just ones that Hornet already had and simply regained.

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

Grandmother Silk definitely seems to be behind the quakes, they just straight-up say that her flailing and thrashing is what’s causing Pharloom to fall.
Which is weird, cause [Ending Spoilers] she’s apparently strung up in the middle of her cocoon just weaving silk nonstop, so if anything, the quakes would be from her threads anchoring into Pharloom to keep her cocoon from sinking deeper into the Void and inadvertently dragging Pharloom down with it.
Either way, it’s pretty clearly her doing. Hornet and the Snail Shamans even make a distinction between the threat of the void and the quakes, so yeah

Which is really ducky since Grandmother Silk shouldn't be that strong, at least not the one Hornet fought. There is some stuff that suggests she’s operating way above her usual level, though. Hornet solely blames Lace and is certain that had she not been swallowed with her, Grandmother Silk would’ve been easily consumed.
This actually lines up pretty nicely with the Moss Mother Hunter Journal entry.

Motherhood is an instinct that can push creatures beyond what seems their normal limits. It turns even weaker beasts like these into formidable foes.

Which tracks thematically, but it's still really weird for it to make Grandmother Silk jump several tiers in power, but ehh, better than the alternative where every single boss, from Bell Beast to Trobbio, have enough power to just nuke Pharloom lol

Ig one could also argue that it's the power of her Silk specifically rather than her raw strength, but there’s not much to back that up yet.

On a side note, Grandmother Silk seems to have at least a x3 multiplier over the Act 3 dream bosses, since it takes three of their powers combined to cast a spell that only maybe rivals her power (Hornet also implies she herself isn’t strong enough to fuel that spell, so there's that too).

 

[Armorchompy]

Which is really ducky since Grandmother Silk shouldn't be that strong, at least not the one Hornet fought. There is some stuff that suggests she’s operating way above her usual level, though. Hornet solely blames Lace and is certain that had she not been swallowed with her, Grandmother Silk would’ve been easily consumed.
This actually lines up pretty nicely with the Moss Mother Hunter Journal entry.

Which tracks thematically, but it's still really weird for it to make Grandmother Silk jump several tiers in power, but ehh, better than the alternative where every single boss, from Bell Beast to Trobbio, have enough power to just nuke Pharloom lol

I think that's pretty silly, Hornet is making a statement on how fiercely a parent can fight for their children, not introducing a verse mechanic that gives you an actual power boost. And nobody's suggesting that all bosses should have this, just the act 3 ones, which are mostly canonically very powerful beings. As you mention there are some weird things with the scaling but... I'd rather give a few characters a bizarrely high rating than pretend The Mom Boost is something that exists in canon. And hey if it does, maybe it's what Bell Beast used to kill Bell Eater

Ig one could also argue that it's the power of her Silk specifically rather than her raw strength, but there’s not much to back that up yet.

I would say that's a more convincing argument than the above, at least. In that case she'd be a glass cannon of sorts. I'm not exactly sure about that, but I guess it's worth looking into.

On a side note, Grandmother Silk seems to have at least a x3 multiplier over the Act 3 dream bosses, since it takes three of their powers combined to cast a spell that only maybe rivals her power (Hornet also implies she herself isn’t strong enough to fuel that spell, so there's that too).

Silk is definitely the strongest being in the game outside of true ending stuff (Maybe, I haven't gotten there yet lol), I'd say Hornet is fairly consistently portrayed as comparable but not quite on her level, which she makes up for in speed, mobility and so on. With that said I dunno if I'd say that their actual AP would be x3 lower, clearly they're inferior but "power" is a vague thing and aspects such as training and martial skill (which two of the three dream bosses clearly employ) can affect your AP without your "power" increasing. I suppose I might not be opposed to everyone except Silk only scaling to 1/3 of the feat but it depends.

 

[Armorchompy]

I definitely wouldn't consider the ability you're thinking of as something for "cutting a bug down."

It does damage. It's not primarily a combat tool but it does fit the description, and really my main argument was that we don't know how far she can throw it (with deadly accuracy), not that we have hard proof she can throw much farther. With that said, the fungal wastes feat of her zipping across it isn't her attacking anyone either, so if you think that means a range showing of hers is unapplicable for the statement... there you go.

Unrelated but, once we're reading to make the profiles and everything, how should we handle things? There's clearly a few things in contention right now and it'd be good to formally vote on them. We should also figure out how to partition the work for various profiles. I think I can handle a lot of Hornet herself, I've got a bunch of screenshots of rare dialogue saved and generally enjoy going through stuff for game protagonists, but obviously it's a lot of stuff so help may be appreciate it.

 

[Zabazab]

Hornet being talkative, of the higher caste, and very old/knowledgeable has made Silksong a wonder in terms of lore. Can't count how many times I've climbed up to Mask Maker.

 

[Armorchompy]

Hornet being talkative, of the higher caste, and very old/knowledgeable has made Silksong a wonder in terms of lore. Can't count how many times I've climbed up to Mask Maker.

Does he have more dialogue if you do that? Cool.

 

[AcidSilver]

I think that's pretty silly, Hornet is making a statement on how fiercely a parent can fight for their children, not introducing a verse mechanic that gives you an actual power boost. And nobody's suggesting that all bosses should have this, just the act 3 ones, which are mostly canonically very powerful beings. As you mention there are some weird things with the scaling but... I'd rather give a few characters a bizarrely high rating than pretend The Mom Boost is something that exists in canon. And hey if it does, maybe it's what Bell Beast used to kill Bell Eater

There's no real reason to think it's some mystical power boost. It's no different from irl people being able to push far beyond their limits when a loved one is in danger due to hysterical strength.

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

And nobody's suggesting that all bosses should have this, just the act 3 ones, which are mostly canonically very powerful beings.

The mostly is doing a lot of heavy lifting, because yeah, we’ve got bosses like Nyleth and Karmelita, but we’ve also got ones like Gurr and Crawfather.
And one of them is legit just Trobbio but he painted himself purple.

Plus, even if we disregard the Bell Beast thing, Lace definitely scales to Grandmother Silk’s durability and she’s fought in Act 2 with no special power-up beforehand, so it’d feel pretty arbitrary to suddenly stop the scaling right at her fight.
And if we went that route, we’d end up with Lace and the less hyped Act 3 bosses sitting in Tier 7, while Second Sentinel, First Sinner, Last Judge, and Phantom are down at like 9-B (Since the current 9-A feat scales to current Hornet) which is definitely not intended I feel.

 

[Zabazab]

Does he have more dialogue if you do that? Cool.

His dialogue updates as events occur in Pharloom, and with other triggers like bringing him the paint from the Courier Wish. Due to him having the Vision, and a lot of knowledge, we get a good perspective on Hornet and the Higher Beings from the perspective of a normal bug. Plus lore on some Weaver/GMS history with the Citadel.

 

[Armorchompy]

The mostly is doing a lot of heavy lifting, because yeah, we’ve got bosses like Nyleth and Karmelita, but we’ve also got ones like Gurr and Crawfather.
And one of them is legit just Trobbio but he painted himself purple.

I mean he's clearly Gotten stronger, it doesn't make sense that it'd be such an upgrade but, i 'unno, I don't think some weird results should invalidate what's clearly intended to be a feat of power for Grandma Silk. For the rest of them, they're not higher beings or whatever but it's not really alien to HK lore for normal bugs to somewhat go toe to toe with people on that level of power. Dung Defender and the other knights were very powerful in their heyday, the Mantis Lords were a rival to the Weavers and the Traitor Lord threatens to kill the White Lady, Vespa trained Hornet in combat, Quirrel is comparable to Hornet in the comic and can hit Uumuu way harder than a late-game Knight, so on so forth. I'm not gonna deny that it's silly for such mundane bosses to get to at most tier 7 (I emphasize the "at most" because he heavily downscales from silk, given it's Grandma Silk > Hornet > most Act 3 bosses), but it's not unheard of for "normal" bugs to match higher beings in the lore.

And I guess you could argue only the dream bosses scale and the live ones don't, although I dunno if I'd be in favor of that.

Plus, even if we disregard the Bell Beast thing, Lace definitely scales to Grandmother Silk’s durability and she’s fought in Act 2 with no special power-up beforehand, so it’d feel pretty arbitrary to suddenly stop the scaling right at her fight.
And if we went that route, we’d end up with Lace and the less hyped Act 3 bosses sitting in Tier 7, while Second Sentinel, First Sinner, Last Judge, and Phantom are down at like 9-B (Since the current 9-A feat scales to current Hornet) which is definitely not intended I feel.

Lace is fought at the very end of Act 2 minutes before Silk, she'd definitely scale to Hornet at that point lol. And I dunno about the "not intended" stuff. I don't think those people you listed except for First Sinner (who is maybe intended to be found in Act 3? I dunno it's a tight jump to get her without Silk Soar) are necessarily meant to be all that powerful in the grand scheme.

With that said they'd be higher than 9-B. Fourth Chorus has a very good feat when it wakes up and crushes all the rocks around itself, should get 9-A.

 

[DavidTPPM]

So I think I'm very close to Act 3 (I'm only missing 1 of the 3 songs) but I read somewhere that if you don't do certain things in act 2 before getting to the 3rd act you'll lock yourself out of some content.

Does anyone know if that's true and if so what should you do before finishing act 2?

 

[Divini]

So I think I'm very close to Act 3 (I'm only missing 1 of the 3 songs) but I read somewhere that if you don't do certain things in act 2 before getting to the 3rd act you'll lock yourself out of some content.

Does anyone know if that's true and if so what should you do before finishing act 2?

It is true, 2 boss fights and 1 game ending at the very least. Act 3 causes a good amount of changes in general

 

[Armorchompy]

So I think I'm very close to Act 3 (I'm only missing 1 of the 3 songs) but I read somewhere that if you don't do certain things in act 2 before getting to the 3rd act you'll lock yourself out of some content.

Does anyone know if that's true and if so what should you do before finishing act 2?

• There's a few minor things. First off a few quests disappear, so you might wanna clear all the ones you wanna do. In particular the "Volatile Flintbeetles" quest is the only way to meet the related enemy meaning if you don't do it you can't complete the bestiary. A few delivery quests disappear too, though there's nothing super important about them.
• There's a cool boss (not needed for bestiary) you can miss. It's found to the right of bellhart in greymoor, if you hit the ring Shakra's left there you get to duel her.
• You might've already locked yourself out of this one but there's also a duel against Garmond and Zaza, found on the roof above whispering vaults. But if you've beaten the high halls gauntlet then you can't do it (maybe, check anyways to be sure if you wanna). It's a pretty simple and easy fight though so don't beat yourself up over it, it's just neat if you get to do it. Once again the entry is not needed for 100% hunter's journal.
• There's an NPC in Deep Docks that disappears in act 3, as does their associated minigame, but you can get the reward anyways (Sorry for the weird spoilering I just wanna keep it ambiguous lol). A few merchants disappear but their loot can be bought elsewhere.
• If you haven't been to the Slab yet it's worth to look for a certain unique enemy and letting them hit you. There's one that can be found in the Deep Docks area near Hunter's March.
• This isn't a missable thing but the optional boss in Deep Docks becomes harder in an unfun way in Act 3 (that might honestly be a dev mistake) so might be worth fighting them now.

There's nothing you can miss out on completion-wise, though, 100% completion is always achievable. There's an achievement and unique ending you can miss out on, which involve beating the Act 2 final boss while affected by the Witch Crest's curse but up to you if that's worth the trouble (You might also have locked yourself out of it if you've done that questline). I didn't mention a few minor things (For example a quest in an area you might not have found yet has a different storyline in act 2 vs 3, but plays out the same otherwise) but that should be the important stuff.

 

[Divini]

There's a few minor things. First off a few quests disappear, so you might wanna clear all the ones you wanna do. In particular the "Volatile Flintbeetles" quest is the only way to meet the related enemy meaning if you don't do it you can't complete the bestiary. A few delivery quests disappear too, though there's nothing super important about them.

The game does give you instantly the bestiary if you can't find said enemy again

 

[Armorchompy]

Gotcha, didn't know.

Unrelated, but is the soul/mind/life resistance stuff on the HK pages right now correct? It sounds a bit weird but I'm not really too knowledgeable on HK lore so I wouldn't know for sure.

 

[Divini]

Gotcha, didn't know.

I randomly found that during the lost Verdania where i got the all the bugs from there for free after i left since i couldn't access that area anymore since i killed the green prince. although there are more examples but yeah

Unrelated, but is the soul/mind/life resistance stuff on the HK pages right now correct? It sounds a bit weird but I'm not really too knowledgeable on HK lore so I wouldn't know for sure.

I don't know if its relevant to the question but Silksong has soul stuff with how the silk and the void affect the soul