Hey There, Would You Like to Talk About Homestuck's Weird Metanarrative Tiering?

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

I said I'd only post here sporadically about a few key things that interest me. The fact that one of them is Homestuck probably reflects poorly on me as a person.

Anyway, I noticed that a number of Homestuck pages are currently rated as High 1-A based around statements that come from Feferi's route in the game Pesterquest. However, I believe there's been a slight misinterpretation of them that's resulted in some inflated tiers. I'll try to keep this as simple as possible so it doesn't end up a massive pain in the ass requiring deeper talks about an 8000+ page webcomic.

To cut to the chase, Feferi's page currently treats it as if one of the endings of her route involves her and the MSPA Reader ascending past this "infinite hierarchy of creators", thus justifying the High 1-A rating. The problem is that this isn't what happens. I'm going to post all of Karako's dialogue from the relevant segment, in order, just so it's here in plain text, but you can also watch this video to verify it for yourself.

• "Does a troll who paddles an oar-vessel down a rushing river control her own fate, or does the river control her? The answer is of course: both! The river has its force, but within that the troll can move her boat where she will. You are the Heiress, and thus the fate that sweeps you along is vast and swift and powerful, but also your arms are strong and your oar-vessel stout. Do not despair of your own strength! Yet there is more. We see by mystic means that the rushing river you navigate is itself being swept along by an unimaginably vaster rushing cosmic river, and that the planet which that vast cosmic river traverses is itself being swept along an infinitely greater super-cosmic river. There are many such metaphorical cosmic meta-river levels in this particular instantiation of the Story. Thus, even if you row with utmost power to change your course on the river you are navigating — the river you can see — the other meta-rivers continue to sweep you on as before, without regard for any tiny adjustments you may make down at your level. Yet do not despair! You may yet through long and deep meditation transcend the bounds of this small world, rising higher and higher so that you are able to see and comprehend and transcend those vast and meta-vast cosmic river levels one by one! And what you can see, you can learn how to navigate, using meta-vessels and meta-oars fashioned from meta-cosmic star-stuff! Yet also remain humble! Above the creator of this world is yet another creator, and above him yet another creator greater even than him, and above her yet another creator! These vast powers move all things like pieces on a chessboard — yet if the chess pieces grow wise enough, they may move the movers!! The powers that move in these universes upon universes are unimaginably large, and as yet you are unimaginably small — yet none the less for that you in your smallness and your small world are indispensable, like a key piece at the bottom of an infinitely tall Jenga tower. Knowing these things, do you wish to undertake the great work of awakening and enlightenment that will bear you into the full light of Reality? It is the work of millions of mantras, thousands of sweeps, and hundreds of lives. Or knowing these things, do you instead choose to ply your vessel in the waters of your own world, remaining the person life has made you? Remaining a key yet unknowing piece in the towering stack of universes, influencing your own destiny on the corporeal river, swept to destinations beyond your understanding in fulfillment of the larger Story?? Either choice is noble, little one. Your only duty and burden is to choose the one that seems best to you!"

I've bolded some of the most important bits. A few key points:

1. The meta-rivers that Feferi is given the chance to transcend are not the same thing as the hierarchy of creators. Karako brings up the creators after talking about the rivers, even prefacing it by saying "Yet also remain humble!", clarifying that even enlightened there are things vaster and grander than you. Yes, he also talks about the ability to "move the movers" (which is more likely foreshadowing of something later), but this is not the same as utterly transcending something. Hell, he directly compares it to being a key piece at the bottom of a Jenga tower, which seems like a pretty clear means of showing something that understands its nature in a story can have sway without direct transcendence.
2. At no point are the number of levels Feferi is transcending referred to as "infinite". The closest we get is that "infinitely tall Jenga tower" statement, which is about the hierarchy of creators. In fact, Karako only says there are "many such metaphorical cosmic meta-river levels in this particular instantiation of the Story" and that Feferi can transcend them "one by one", which suggests the number of levels within "this particular instantiation of the Story" (Pesterquest) is very much not infinite. Just "many".
3. Despite the word "meta" being used, the levels of transcendence achieved by Feferi and the MSPA Reader at the end of this path don't actually have any direct signs of R>F. They're simply described as "vaster" and "infinitely greater", which on its own doesn't seem like enough to say they're 1-A in scope (this is honestly less of a problem than the previous two points, to me).
4. You can go through with this in an alternate ending to the route, and the level of transcendence implied by Feferi's profile just straight up doesn't happen. The most that's said about it is "You and Feferi are seated in full lotus position on either side of a fresh-air conch, cozy in a bubble floating deep through the vast oceans of Alternia, where you can never be found by anyone until you emerge fully enlightened and with the power of gods, many yugas hence." This does not feel like it's even close to enough evidence to justify achieving a High 1-A level of transcendence, let alone 1-A. Especially in Homestuck, which is no stranger to showing off the effects of metanarrative meddling.

In fact, I'm pretty sure nobody scales to this full hierarchy of creators, as it's (unsurprisingly) at least partially a metacommentary and not something meant to be purely part of the cosmology in-universe. The reason I say this is because in the true ending, when the Reader is shunted out of the story and into the epilogue, they have a talk with "the Director", who makes it clear that the events occurring are still part of the endless hierarchy of creators.

• "Wait, you did that? But you remember the other story. The real story. The one that just ended with everything fallen to shit! Are you saying all of that didn't happen?
• 'No, it happened. Well, it didn't actually happen, because none of this is happening. Creators all the way down, and suchlike.'"

The Director operates on the same level of metanarrative as Andrew Hussie and Ultimate Dirk, yet acknowledges that the events she's taking part in are still just part of that never-ending series of creators. Which means that right now, quite a few characters are scaled based on transcending a hierarchy they are explicitly a part of.

If there is something else pointing to someone transcending this infinite hierarchy, I'd be more than happy to see it, but to my knowledge this is a concept that was really only brought up in such a capacity within Pesterquest.

 

[Eseseso]

What tiering changes are you proposing for the cosmology?

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

What tiering changes are you proposing for the cosmology?

Currently the top tiers are all scaled based on transcending the aforementioned hierarchy of creators (High 1-A), but as the ending to Pesterquest suggests that even the top metanarrative events of Homestuck take place inside of it, they would just be somewhere within 1-A.

I'm also not sure about the transcendence of certain characters (Hussie is basically made out of anti-feats), but that's probably easier to address after dealing with the tiering in general.

 

[Jinsye]

Don't let this take away from the fact that Toby Fox is voicing John Egbert in the new cartoon.

I think this makes sense though.

 

[Eseseso]

Don't let this take away from the fact that Toby Fox is voicing John Egbert in the new cartoon.

Ok that is honestly sick.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Don't let this take away from the fact that Toby Fox is voicing John Egbert in the new cartoon.

 

[Deonment]

I can see what OP is getting at, and like, I kinda agree, I think it's a fair interpretation and all that, that I do partially disagree with, to quote specific points that I do disagree with

Despite the word "meta" being used, the levels of transcendence achieved by Feferi and the MSPA Reader at the end of this path don't actually have any direct signs of R>F. They're simply described as "vaster" and "infinitely greater", which on its own doesn't seem like enough to say they're 1-A in scope (this is honestly less of a problem than the previous two points, to me).

I mean, kinda kinda not, for example, Ult selves never really got the same sort of treatment despite existing in a "higher textual plane" outside of the obvious Ult Dirk, and given some points that User posted in the last thread (that got ignored but it is what it is) that lead me to believe that the True Light of Reality they ascend to would be the actual full extent of the Furthest Ring (which is 1-A anyways even if all this gets downgraded)

You can go through with this in an alternate ending to the route, and the level of transcendence implied by Feferi's profile just straight up doesn't happen. The most that's said about it is "You and Feferi are seated in full lotus position on either side of a fresh-air conch, cozy in a bubble floating deep through the vast oceans of Alternia, where you can never be found by anyone until you emerge fully enlightened and with the power of gods, many yugas hence." This does not feel like it's even close to enough evidence to justify achieving a High 1-A level of transcendence, let alone 1-A. Especially in Homestuck, which is no stranger to showing off the effects of metanarrative meddling.

The issue here is kinda just solved with the above stuff I mentioned (that being User's points on the past thread), with how it's very much implied that the Wise One is a Horrorterror, and the Full Light of Reality is actually the Furthest Ring, and thus the state you achive in this route as a god would be the one the furthest ring exhibits, which is still 1-A

In fact, I'm pretty sure nobody scales to this full hierarchy of creators, as it's (unsurprisingly) at least partially a metacommentary and not something meant to be purely part of the cosmology in-universe. The reason I say this is because in the true ending, when the Reader is shunted out of the story and into the epilogue, they have a talk with "the Director", who makes it clear that the events occurring are still part of the endless hierarchy of creators.

• "Wait, you did that? But you remember the other story. The real story. The one that just ended with everything fallen to shit! Are you saying all of that didn't happen?
• 'No, it happened. Well, it didn't actually happen, because none of this is happening. Creators all the way down, and suchlike.'"

The Director operates on the same level of metanarrative as Andrew Hussie and Ultimate Dirk, yet acknowledges that the events she's taking part in are still just part of that never-ending series of creators. Which means that right now, quite a few characters are scaled based on transcending a hierarchy they are explicitly a part of.

I mean, I can get what you're saying, but I also disagree because to my understanding (or at least reading of the cosmology), Paradox Space would still contain all the creators seeing as the (or at least the what I'm reading as your understanding of the cosmology) rivers are contained within a Story, these stories are written by Creators, who have their own Rivers dictating them, so on and so forth (which is to my understanding part of the reason why its read that the two heirarchies are one, it's that homestuck does this a lot, where there is some higher force of plot, fate or what have you that governs even higher and higher powers, The Kids are subject to the Trolls, the Trolls are subject to Doc Scratch, Doc Scratch is subject to both Hussie and LE, so on and so forth, ending in Paradox Space being the governing force of all of it), which to simplify this would make this a hierchy of stories within stories, which would still be within Paradox Space, as it is literally Reality itself, it contains everything, yada yada yada, and the true selves of Ult Tiers and the Non-Author Avatars of Hussie and the Director scale to it, and thus would scale to High 1-A through it

I'm also not sure about the transcendence of certain characters (Hussie is basically made out of anti-feats), but that's probably easier to address after dealing with the tiering in general.

That I have a solution to (either he's an (Author) avatar like the bodies of Ult Selves, or he has hax on that level as a Narrator/Author like Doc Scratch (if I get my way that is))

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

I mean, kinda kinda not, for example, Ult selves never really got the same sort of treatment despite existing in a "higher textual plane" outside of the obvious Ult Dirk, and given some points that User posted in the last thread (that got ignored but it is what it is) that lead me to believe that the True Light of Reality they ascend to would be the actual full extent of the Furthest Ring (which is 1-A anyways even if all this gets downgraded)

The issue here is kinda just solved with the above stuff I mentioned (that being User's points on the past thread), with how it's very much implied that the Wise One is a Horrorterror, and the Full Light of Reality is actually the Furthest Ring, and thus the state you achive in this route as a god would be the one the furthest ring exhibits, which is still 1-A

I agree this is all theoretically possible, but my issue is just how it's sort of... not explored? The further ramifications of the entire thing are never elaborated upon at all and, if I recall correctly, the Director's comments are one of the only times anything relating to this aspect of the conversation is mentioned afterward. It's also not helped by the fact that this isn't the volume's true path forward, meaning the true ending of Pesterquest (in which MSPA Reader actually transcends their story) has nothing to do with following this path of enlightenment: even weirder, MSPA Reader's narrative transcendence ends up being a result of holding on to their worldly connections. Basing such an incredibly high tier purely on what it all could possibly mean feels a tad sketchy.

With that being said, if this particular ending was either ignored or put at "Unknown" or whatever, it really wouldn't have any effect except changing a key on Feferi and MSPA Reader's pages. They are the only ones who this applies to, and MSPA Reader already gains R>F from the game's true ending.

I mean, I can get what you're saying, but I also disagree because to my understanding (or at least reading of the cosmology), Paradox Space would still contain all the creators seeing as the (or at least the what I'm reading as your understanding of the cosmology) rivers are contained within a Story, these stories are written by Creators, who have their own Rivers dictating them, so on and so forth (which is to my understanding part of the reason why its read that the two heirarchies are one, it's that homestuck does this a lot, where there is some higher force of plot, fate or what have you that governs even higher and higher powers, The Kids are subject to the Trolls, the Trolls are subject to Doc Scratch, Doc Scratch is subject to both Hussie and LE, so on and so forth, ending in Paradox Space being the governing force of all of it), which to simplify this would make this a hierchy of stories within stories, which would still be within Paradox Space, as it is literally Reality itself, it contains everything, yada yada yada, and the true selves of Ult Tiers and the Non-Author Avatars of Hussie and the Director scale to it, and thus would scale to High 1-A through it

None of that is actual R>F, though. If we're defining the rivers and creators as such, then the hierarchy isn't one of qualitative superiority at all. Kids < Trolls < Doc Scratch < Hussie/LE is indeed a stack of creators, but none of these creators view the others as fictional. At most, the people below them are subject to metanarrative manipulation and meddling, like in the case of Hussie, but they aren't actually fictional to him. Lord English famously enters Hussie's house and kills him with a gun.

The very idea of this hierarchy of creators being an infinite series of R>F differences doesn't line up with how the original Homestuck presented things, but even if we assume that's the case, the top beings we've been shown in the verse still exist within said hierarchy by their own words (i.e. the Director). The idea of Paradox Space itself (at least as we know it) containing the entirety of this infinite R>F stack also doesn't really make sense, as even the Furthest Ring was getting wrecked by Lord English, who very much does not view normal trolls and humans as fiction. Dude was fist-fighting the ghost army, getting briefly slapped around by Davepetasprite^2, and frozen by Aradia's powers. He's invincible, but certainly not transcendent.

The sheer level of scale being argued for is one that needs more than one unexplained scene in a single piece of post-canon content that appears almost antithetical to how metanarrative was treated in Homestuck proper.

That I have a solution to (either he's an (Author) avatar like the bodies of Ult Selves, or he has hax on that level as a Narrator/Author like Doc Scratch (if I get my way that is))

Honestly, I think it always should have been the latter. Hussie (the character) clearly has a great degree of control over the narrative of Homestuck, but physically he seems to just kind of be a guy. Spades Slick can stab him, bullies can chase him into an attic, Vriska can punch him in the face — and for that last one I don't believe the current suggestion on his page that Lord English killing him somehow dropped him an infinite number of R>F layers.

The joke always kind of seemed to be that he's this comical loser with incredible control over the story, but who was still fully vulnerable to just having his ass kicked.

 

[Deonment]

I agree this is all theoretically possible, but my issue is just how it's sort of... not explored? The further ramifications of the entire thing are never elaborated upon at all and, if I recall correctly, the Director's comments are one of the only times anything relating to this aspect of the conversation is mentioned afterward. It's also not helped by the fact that this isn't the volume's true path forward, meaning the true ending of Pesterquest (in which MSPA Reader actually transcends their story) has nothing to do with following this path of enlightenment: even weirder, MSPA Reader's narrative transcendence ends up being a result of holding on to their worldly connections. Basing such an incredibly high tier purely on what it all could possibly mean feels a tad sketchy.

Yeah fair enough, and technically creators all the way down is mentioned elsewhere (in H^2 but the context is an argument about intelligent design), but I mean, that's kinda why I imagine its gonna be below the true end anyways, since it isn't the True End where MSPA actually transcends the story (whereas this remains within the boundaries of the story)

With that being said, if this particular ending was either ignored or put at "Unknown" or whatever, it really wouldn't have any effect except changing a key on Feferi and MSPA Reader's pages. They are the only ones who this applies to, and MSPA Reader already gains R>F from the game's true ending.

Yeah, I would just scale them to the FR and be done with it

None of that is actual R>F, though. If we're defining the rivers and creators as such, then the hierarchy isn't one of qualitative superiority at all. Kids < Trolls < Doc Scratch < Hussie/LE is indeed a stack of creators, but none of these creators view the others as fictional. At most, the people below them are subject to metanarrative manipulation and meddling, like in the case of Hussie, but they aren't actually fictional to him. Lord English famously enters Hussie's house and kills him with a gun.

Yeah, ofc, I was just bringing that up as an example of like, the whole idea that homestuck has of characters being controlled by a higher power beyond them, but wasn't wholly relevant to my point, and was moreso a side tangent and bringing up some parallels, which is strange honestly the more I think about it
Even in the base quote the rivers are like, explicitly mentioned to be on a personal, then planetary, then cosmic level, and then so up and so forth until it reaches the level of the Story, the "Ultimate River" so to speak, which like, considering the other context Creator is used as a proper noun in homestuck media in general is (that being referring to the kids, or anyone really, who wins their game), I am kinda questioning the exact nature of the hierarchy

The very idea of this hierarchy of creators being an infinite series of R>F differences doesn't line up with how the original Homestuck presented things, but even if we assume that's the case, the top beings we've been shown in the verse still exist within said hierarchy by their own words (i.e. the Director).

I mean, I kinda agree there, but also disagree, I read the "creators all the down" from her PoV, referring to a mix of author avatars and what not with her true form/meta-textual form existing either beyond or at the top of the hierarchy, but I can understand why you wouldn't

The idea of Paradox Space itself (at least as we know it) containing the entirety of this infinite R>F stack also doesn't really make sense, as even the Furthest Ring was getting wrecked by Lord English, who very much does not view normal trolls and humans as fiction. Dude was fist-fighting the ghost army, getting briefly slapped around by Davepetasprite^2, and frozen by Aradia's powers. He's invincible, but certainly not transcendent.

I mean, I'm gonna be deadass, LE doesn't really have any non-hax feats beyond the level of the Furthest Ring that don't involve hax, or is the hussie feat (which I've already pointed out my issues with), every instance of him ******* up "reality" cannot in context refer to anything but the Furthest Ring, which does leave Paradox Space without any real anti-feats that aren't it doing stuff to itself, and given the pretty explicit statements we have regarding the nature of Paradox Space + Ult Selves existing across the whole thing, it wouldn't really make sense to me at the very least for the God Tiers (Ult Selves + Alt Callopie + First Guardian MSPA Reader, the powers of Authors/Narrators) to scale below the creator hierarchy

Honestly, I think it always should have been the latter. Hussie (the character) clearly has a great degree of control over the narrative of Homestuck, but physically he seems to just kind of be a guy. Spades Slick can stab him, bullies can chase him into an attic, Vriska can punch him in the face — and for that last one I don't believe the current suggestion on his page that Lord English killing him somehow dropped him an infinite number of R>F layers.

The joke always kind of seemed to be that he's this comical loser with incredible control over the story, but who was still fully vulnerable to just having his ass kicked.

Yeah, I can agree with that, he always does just kinda read as just having control over the story but not being all that physically capable, was what I was going suggest for his tiering in the first place when the scaling thread came around, just make him 8-A or whatever and give him wherever we scale the god tiers level hax

 

[FoxySonicMaster108]

Before the scaling thread could even be done? Wowwww. (Welcome back btw Azathoth)

After reading what’s been presented here, I agree more with Deon on this personally. Although what would be done about the other characters? Like John Egbert and such?

Also would like to add there actually isn’t any solid proof Hussie got weaker after LE killed him anyway, so, I’m actually fine with him getting downgraded. At most Hussie would be like, 2-A or something, like Doc Scratch (although the stuff with Vriska would probably make him even lower)

 

[Accelerate420]

If there is something else pointing to someone transcending this infinite hierarchy, I'd be more than happy to see it, but to my knowledge this is a concept that was really only brought up in such a capacity within Pesterquest.

Would this not apply to the Furthest Ring? Hussie has stated that it's outside of all possible universes and their space-times and is the default reality, which would mean any possible realities that can exist would be encompassed by it.

"So this is establishing the foundational basis for the afterlife in Paradox Space—not an eternal continuum like heaven or hell, but a purgatory of a more dubious nature, one that is actively maintained by vast, ancient monsters through a network of trillions of relatively small ephemeral bubbles. They pop, they get blown again, ghosts can drift freely from one to another. When we understand the broader cosmology of Paradox Space in this way, it starts to seem reasonable to begin thinking in terms of "bubble-based reality structures,"

"It's implied, as I mentioned a few notes ago, that all comprehensible realities to us (such as dream bubble illusions, or Sburb sessions containing entire universes) actually are confined by little bubbles that these beasts whimsically blow, probably for no humanly comprehensible reason. This suggests that this godawful abyss and its gruesome inhabitants are the default reality. And the much more stable, relatable realms we enjoy, such as "a universe," are actually the rare exceptions: totally anomalous, dreamlike fields of experience that exist only briefly relative to the lifespan of these monsters, as the confining bubbles swell and pop."

would that not imply that the Furthest Ring is superior to this hierarchy and that the Meta Rivers are bubble worlds with this hierarchy? i should also add that the commentary for this and the pesterquest feferi volume were very closely released around the same time. I'm not sure what that means for the power scaling of the Director and Ult Dirk though, but that's besides the point of trying to prove cosmological superiority.

 

[Deonment]

Would this not apply to the Furthest Ring? Hussie has stated that it's outside of all possible universes and their space-times and is the default reality, which would mean any possible realities that can exist would be encompassed by it.

would that not imply that the Furthest Ring is superior to this hierarchy and that the Meta Rivers are bubble worlds with this hierarchy? i should also add that the commentary for this and the pesterquest feferi volume were very closely released around the same time. I'm not sure what that means for the power scaling of the Director and Ult Dirk though, but that's besides the point of trying to prove cosmological superiority

I mean, no?
I'm personally 50/50 on that on if you read the Wise One as being a horrorterror or not (and if it is that they actually reached the FR proper)
If not, you kinda can't just assume that given the nature of the hierarchy, as even the Furthest Ring I can argue is bound by some degree of pre-determinism/fate from a higher entity, which would still put it within the creator hierarchy, somewhere up and above it, but not wholly transcendent of it
Anyways, as I said above I'm not wholly sure about the exact nature of said Meta River hierarchy and whether or not it is wholly literal anyways, considering how much the concept aligns with both in and out-of-universe stuff regarding homestucks nature and themes, the most I can say with confidence would be John and MSPA's readers stuff with the retcon would be outside of the hierachy, and that Paradox Space should contain it, but anything beyond that is kinda just up to conjuecture and interpretation.

 

[Accelerate420]

I mean, no?
I'm personally 50/50 on that on if you read the Wise One as being a horrorterror or not (and if it is that they actually reached the FR proper)
If not, you kinda can't just assume that given the nature of the hierarchy, as even the Furthest Ring I can argue is bound by some degree of pre-determinism/fate from a higher entity, which would still put it within the creator hierarchy, somewhere up and above it, but not wholly transcendent of it
Anyways, as I said above I'm not wholly sure about the exact nature of said Meta River hierarchy and whether or not it is wholly literal anyways, considering how much the concept aligns with both in and out-of-universe stuff regarding homestucks nature and themes, the most I can say with confidence would be John and MSPA's readers stuff with the retcon would be outside of the hierachy, and that Paradox Space should contain it, but anything beyond that is kinda just up to conjuecture and interpretation.

It being bound by the pre-determinism/fate of a higher entity doesn't mean that it's not beyond said hierarchy of creators. If it's the default of reality, this would impose it as the 'natural state' of anything that can be or can't be. These realities would be participating on it, with then Paradox Space as a whole encompassing said default. In Hussie's own words ;

Paradox space is even broader. It encompasses everything, including the Furthest Ring, all Incipispheres ever, and all universes.

Logically speaking, if the Furthest Ring is the default (that is, 'reality' before reality can become reality) this would imply everything else that exists has to exist afterwards, by Hussie's own words. What you're arguing with is the author's imposition of the composition of his work.

What, then, would the Hierarchy of Creators be if this is the case or isn't the case to you?

Regarding the literal or non-literal interpretation of the Creators layers and meta-rivers, I think it's important to keep in mind that terminology in Homestuck isn't the same as applied elsewhere. You have Multiverse's referred to as universes and Paradox Space referred to as a multiverse, so we need to inspect the text carefully by context rather than literal or even non-literal meanings. But again, I'm not arguing this at the moment, just the way the cosmology is set up.

Also, for Feferi and other characters, I'm not debating that. Personally the Director would just exist at an unknown level within this Hierarchy, but not beyond it. So they wouldn't be on the same level as Hussie of course.

I also find the debate about "Lord English killing Hussie with an AK" to be kind of disengenious, when it's implied the Green Sun is used as a power source for it through visual story telling (the staff reforms itself in orientation around the Green Sun.)

That being said, I'm ok with Hussie being a glass cannon loser too because it fits. I just think using that as an argument is iffy.

 

[Deonment]

It being bound by the pre-determinism/fate of a higher entity doesn't mean that it's not beyond said hierarchy of creators. If it's the default of reality, this would impose it as the 'natural state' of anything that can be or can't be. These realities would be participating on it, with then Paradox Space as a whole encompassing said default. In Hussie's own words ;

I mean, yes and no?
The thing with the Meta-Rivers is that they govern and sweep along the fate of lower and lower "realities", being the default underlying reality doesn't really mean much considering that I could as easily argue it being the "highest river", but I have remembered something that does make me confident in the FR containing the hierachy, with the fact that Doom and Time are things that exist to their highest extent and natural state in the FR, and they as concepts include Fate, Inevitability, Possibilities, so on and so forth, so arguing the FR actually contains (and transcends) the hierachy should be easy enough.

Regarding the literal or non-literal interpretation of the Creators layers and meta-rivers, I think it's important to keep in mind that terminology in Homestuck isn't the same as applied elsewhere. You have Multiverse's referred to as universes and Paradox Space referred to as a multiverse, so we need to inspect the text carefully by context rather than literal or even non-literal meanings. But again, I'm not arguing this at the moment, just the way the cosmology is set up.

I mean, no, homestuck uses consistent terminology, it just doesn't use it in ways we consider to be conventional. Genesis Frogs are called universes because they contain all variations on a single timeline, but nothing more, Paradox Space is a Multiverse because it contains all realities, full stop.
I'm bringing up metaphorical instances of things because homestuck isn't a wholly literal story, and taking it and its cosmology as wholly literal isn't correct, we are attempting to link disparate concepts across series to create a unified view of how the verse works, me bringing up the clear implication of how the rivers being personal then expanding to greater and greater extents, and how that ties into homestucks themes that are brought up in the same book's you're citing isn't that absurd, and I could go on, the Rivers and Creators are not wholly literal, reading it as such is power scaler bias, that doesn't mean that there can't be 1-A jumps or what have you in there, but that clearly the structure is more interwoven with the nature of Paradox Space (or at least the Furthest Ring) than first assumed.

 

[Accelerate420]

I mean, yes and no?
The thing with the Meta-Rivers is that they govern and sweep along the fate of lower and lower "realities", being the default underlying reality doesn't really mean much considering that I could as easily argue it being the "highest river", but I have remembered something that does make me confident in the FR containing the hierachy, with the fact that Doom and Time are things that exist to their highest extent and natural state in the FR, and they as concepts include Fate, Inevitability, Possibilities, so on and so forth, so arguing the FR actually contains (and transcends) the hierachy should be easy enough.

That last point is pretty good, I didn't personally think of that yet, but yes. The Furthest Ring is where all aspects exist outside of all possible universes, it's a blend of all existing concepts so a hierarchy existing above it not only goes against the written text of Homestuck (with said concepts being 'the most real they can be') but makes no sense.

For the Meta-Rivers point though, it does mean much because where wording is concerned, we need to understand how everything works in Homestuck in relation to the Furthest Ring, which has been stated to be the backdrop of everything that isn't Paradox Space. It can't be the highest river because it's not a river. the Furthest Ring IS the Furthest Ring, it's an empty space of nothingness populated by Horrorterrors with everything else participating on it. Not only does the idea of it being a space that has Meta-Rivers or Higher Worlds makes no sense because it is functionally what is 'space' in Homestuck, but Hussie is very consistent in insisting that everything that exists is participating. What we can conceive as 'reality' is preceded by the Furthest Ring here ;

that all comprehensible realities to us (such as dream bubble illusions, or Sburb sessions containing entire universes) actually are confined by little bubbles that these beasts whimsically blow, probably for no humanly comprehensible reason.

And the much more stable, relatable realms we enjoy, such as "a universe," are actually the rare exceptions: totally anomalous, dreamlike fields of experience that exist only briefly relative to the lifespan of these monsters, as the confining bubbles swell and pop."

This is an insistence that the things we navigate like other universes and realities are themselves only relative to the monsters who make them. Thus, the Meta-Rivers and its Hierarchy has to follow suit in logical conclusion. These lower and higher worlds have to be the product of something ultimately greater if this is how the Furthest Ring functions cosmically in the cosmology.

The reason assuming that the Hierarchy is imposed below, or rather, in submission to the Furthest Ring is exactly because of this ; the stance is firm and absolute. By this nature, unless elaborated on, whatever additions to these statements must fall in line or fall below it.

If it were true that the Hierarchy of Creators and its framework were above it, then this would mean that not only is Hussie's own interpretation of his cosmology wrong, but also retconned. And there's not nearly enough info to go assuming that far. Plus, Hussie refers to aspects of the cosmology as a 'bubble-like reality structure', so why would that make the Hierarchy of Creators the exception to this established precedent?

This would mean that, following an interpretation you said earlier, transcendence of this Hierarchy would have you end up in the Furthest Ring which is the most sensible assumption to make, and thus, superior to it.

I mean, no, homestuck uses consistent terminology, it just doesn't use it in ways we consider to be conventional. Genesis Frogs are called universes because they contain all variations on a single timeline, but nothing more, Paradox Space is a Multiverse because it contains all realities, full stop.
I'm bringing up metaphorical instances of things because homestuck isn't a wholly literal story, and taking it and its cosmology as wholly literal isn't correct, we are attempting to link disparate concepts across series to create a unified view of how the verse works, me bringing up the clear implication of how the rivers being personal then expanding to greater and greater extents, and how that ties into homestucks themes that are brought up in the same book's you're citing isn't that absurd, and I could go on, the Rivers and Creators are not wholly literal, reading it as such is power scaler bias, that doesn't mean that there can't be 1-A jumps or what have you in there, but that clearly the structure is more interwoven with the nature of Paradox Space (or at least the Furthest Ring) than first assumed.

I wasn't saying it wasn't consistent, I was saying that it's non-conventional.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Would this not apply to the Furthest Ring? Hussie has stated that it's outside of all possible universes and their space-times and is the default reality, which would mean any possible realities that can exist would be encompassed by it.

would that not imply that the Furthest Ring is superior to this hierarchy and that the Meta Rivers are bubble worlds with this hierarchy? i should also add that the commentary for this and the pesterquest feferi volume were very closely released around the same time. I'm not sure what that means for the power scaling of the Director and Ult Dirk though, but that's besides the point of trying to prove cosmological superiority.

The issue for me in regards to using that statement comes primarily from the fact almost everything about it goes against the idea of a layered, qualitative hierarchy being contained within the Furthest Ring, in the first place.

"It's implied, as I mentioned a few notes ago, that all comprehensible realities to us (such as dream bubble illusions, or Sburb sessions containing entire universes) actually are confined by little bubbles that these beasts whimsically blow, probably for no humanly comprehensible reason. This suggests that this godawful abyss and its gruesome inhabitants are the default reality. And the much more stable, relatable realms we enjoy, such as "a universe," are actually the rare exceptions: totally anomalous, dreamlike fields of experience that exist only briefly relative to the lifespan of these monsters, as the confining bubbles swell and pop."

The Furthest Ring and its Horrorterror inhabitants are the progenitors of the "normal" universes and dream bubbles, but these things aren't actually any sort of fiction or lower reality to them. They are "little bubbles that these beasts whimsically blow", which lines up with the idea of the Horrorterrors being extremely large and unknowable cosmic monstrosities, but not utterly transcendent and unreachable. PM and Jack can see the bleeding, wounded/dead bodies of multiple Horrorterrors floating in the Furthest Ring following Lord English's destruction of a dream bubble, which means entities that are supposed to be the source of all reality that we know of are presented as visible, physically present creatures occupying the same space as two characters who — while powerful — do not possess any degree of narrative transcendence, whatsoever.

Then, at the end of Pesterquest, we have the previously mentioned moment where the Director flat out suggests the events that are occurring are merely part of that endless stack of creators, not above it. These events directly involve her, Andrew Hussie (off screen), and Ultimate Dirk, whom the Director manages to drive off. Ultimate Dirk is at least on the same level of threat as Lord English, who was murdering the Horrorterrors and breaking the Furthest Ring. How then can the Furthest Ring be utterly transcendent of this hierarchy of creators when characters from inside of it have shown the capacity to meaningfully damage it and slaughter its inhabitants?

This is all before even accounting for the fact Hussie's statement of the Furthest Ring being the "default reality" was in relation to "all comprehensible realities to us (such as dream bubble illusions, or Sburb sessions containing entire universes)"; nothing in or out of Homestuck proper suggests this must also hold true to all conceivable higher levels of meta-reality, which are never properly explored or shown and are only ever brought up briefly in spinoff material not written by Hussie. It is trying to use Hussie's explanation of the things he himself wrote as justification for something entirely separate that doesn't necessarily abide by the same framework.

Could you integrate an endless R>F hierarchy into Homestuck in a way that meshes with it? Sure. But you can't really do so by saying that said hierarchy is contained entirely within the Furthest Ring, without breaking the requirements for actual R>F transcendence.

 

[FoxySonicMaster108]

Then, at the end of Pesterquest, we have the previously mentioned moment where the Director flat out suggests the events that are occurring are merely part of that endless stack of creators, not above it. These events directly involve her, Andrew Hussie (off screen), and Ultimate Dirk, whom the Director manages to drive off. Ultimate Dirk is at least on the same level of threat as Lord English, who was murdering the Horrorterrors and breaking the Furthest Ring. How then can the Furthest Ring be utterly transcendent of this hierarchy of creators when characters from inside of it have shown the capacity to meaningfully damage it and slaughter its inhabitants?

With all due respect, what are you talking about? To say they are still apart of this hierarchy of creators (which btw, The Director doesn’t exactly say that) is wrong, given how The Director literally refers to Pesterquest where this infinite hierarchy exists as HER game.

So the fact they’d be lower than a hierarchy which she made anyway just makes NEGATIVE sense in my eyes.

I had to get that out, sorry.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

That is not the dialogue I am referring to, at all. This is.

• "Wait, you did that? But you remember the other story. The real story. The one that just ended with everything fallen to shit! Are you saying all of that didn't happen?
• 'No, it happened. Well, it didn't actually happen, because none of this is happening. Creators all the way down, and suchlike.'"

Also, nowhere does it say she made this hierarchy of creators. Even within Feferi's chapter, it's used as a more meta concept that is not directly tied to Pesterquest. Karako's comment, "There are many such metaphorical cosmic meta-river levels in this particular instantiation of the Story", is a separate thought from when he later says "Yet also remain humble! Above the creator of this world is yet another creator, and above him yet another creator greater even than him, and above her yet another creator!" These are not the same thing, and nowhere does it state Pesterquest contains all of those creators. To say so is to make a pretty huge assumption about an idea that is left exceptionally vague.


Edit: I should probably also point out that this entire thing is a blatant allusion to "turtles all the way down" and the general idea of infinite regress. Philosophically, what's being presented here is that every creator has a creator of its own, and that such a process goes on forever with no "starting point". That is pretty clearly why the Director phrases her comment the way she does: none of this is "happening", because everything is just something that was created by another creator, so using such things as a metric for what's actually "real" is futile. Thus, the actual creators that we see in Homestuck are clearly not meant to be exempt from this endless recursion.

What is currently being suggested on the profiles is that there is an entirely separate infinite regress that is never seen or referenced anywhere else at any other point, said infinite regress does in fact have a "top", and that there are randomly more creators beyond it who are completely exempt from it for completely unexplained reasons. I do not believe this aligns with what is shown or intended, at all.

 

[FoxySonicMaster108]

That is not the dialogue I am referring to, at all. This is.

• "Wait, you did that? But you remember the
• other story. The real story. The one that just ended with everything fallen to shit! Are you saying all of that didn't happen?
• 'No, it happened. Well, it didn't actually happen, because none of this is happening. Creators all the way down, and suchlike.'"

Yes that was what I was referring to when I said “The Director doesn’t exactly say that”, like she doesn’t say directly that they are part of the creator hierarchy.

Also, nowhere does it say she made this hierarchy of creators. Even within Feferi's chapter, it's used as a more meta concept that is not directly tied to Pesterquest. Karako's comment, "There are many such metaphorical cosmic meta-river levels in this particular instantiation of the Story", is a separate thought from when he later says "Yet also remain humble! Above the creator of this world is yet another creator, and above him yet another creator greater even than him, and above her yet another creator!" These are not the same thing, and nowhere does it state Pesterquest contains all of those creators. To say so is to make a pretty huge assumption about an idea that is left exceptionally vague.


Edit: I should probably also point out that this entire thing is a blatant allusion to "turtles all the way down" and the general idea of infinite regress. Philosophically, what's being presented here is that every creator has a creator of its own, and that such a process goes on forever with no "starting point". That is pretty clearly why the Director phrases her comment the way she does: none of this is "happening", because everything is just something that was created by another creator, so using such things as a metric for what's actually "real" is futile. Thus, the actual creators that we see in Homestuck are clearly not meant to be exempt from this endless recursion.

What is currently being suggested on the profiles is that there is an entirely separate infinite regress that is never seen or referenced anywhere else at any other point, said infinite regress does in fact have a "top", and that there are randomly more creators beyond it who are completely exempt from it for completely unexplained reasons. I do not believe this aligns with what is shown or intended, at all.

I mean, the hierarchy didn't really exist until Pesterquest, yeah? (I guess there is something similar in Friendsim though). I think even with all this said, it doesn't make sense for them to be below the hierarchy to begin with. We already know authors in the verse can just write stuff into existence (or draw, whatever), and Pesterquest is The Director's game where the infinite hierarchy exists as mentioned before.

Thus, someone (whether it's Hussie, The Director, or otherwise) would've had to write all this stuff into existence, so I don't see the argument of author tier characters being apart of it, especially given Ult Selves (Dirk especially because he's an author tier being in the verse) exist in a "higher textual plane" (The Narrative given the text, but maybe Paradox Space given the other narrative powers?)

Naturally, despite what you said, it's why I don't buy them somehow being apart of the hierarchy, it doesn't make sense in my eyes.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Yes that was what I was referring to when I said “The Director doesn’t exactly say that”, like she doesn’t say directly that they are part of the creator hierarchy.

If that comment isn't suggesting the events are taking place inside the hierarchy, then it's not saying anything at all. There's really not another way to interpret it based on what we know where it isn't just a non-sequitur.

I mean, the hierarchy didn't really exist until Pesterquest, yeah? I think even with all this said, it doesn't make sense for them to be below the hierarchy to begin with. We already know authors in the verse can just write stuff into existence (or draw, whatever), and Pesterquest is The Director's game where the infinite hierarchy exists as mentioned before.

It was not mentioned until Pesterquest. But this does not mean it exists in its entirety inside Pesterquest, or even the version of Homestuck that we're viewing. This hierarchy is never shown. All we're told is that it exists. The idea that the Director is the one that created it would run directly counter to one of the only things we actually know about it, based on what Karako said.

"Above the creator of this world is yet another creator, and above him yet another creator greater even than him, and above her yet another creator!"

There is, within the actual context, effectively no reason to assume "this world" is referring to something other than the reality of Pesterquest. Without actual proof, it's just inserting another R>F hierarchy where one doesn't exist and then assuming the one we're actually shown is something else entirely, instead of actually being the aforementioned hierarchy.

Thus, someone (whether it's Hussie, The Director, or otherwise) would've had to write all this stuff into existence, so I don't see the argument of author tier characters being apart of it, especially given Ult Selves (Dirk especially because he's an author tier being in the verse) exist in a "higher textual plane" (The Narrative given the text, but maybe Paradox Space given the other narrative powers?) Naturally, despite what you said, it's why I don't buy them somehow being apart of the hierarchy, it doesn't make sense in my eyes.

What you are describing is literally the problem of infinite regress, which is the entire reason the assumption of this hierarchy existing within Pesterquest/Homestuck and not being a largely meta thing doesn't work.

Why is all this stuff there? Because someone created it.

Then who created that creator? Why, another creator, obviously.

Then who created that creator?

You see where this is going.

This is not something made up purely for Homestuck. It is an actual philosophical concept that's being referenced. The assumption of "well, these authors had to write all this stuff into existence, so clearly no one created them" misses the entire point of why this idea is even being presented. To say that they are somehow transcendent of this hierarchy (instead of one of the only examples we even have of it actually existing), you would need something that very, very clearly says such. We cannot base one of the highest tiers on the site on something with basically zero supporting evidence.

 

[Deonment]

The issue for me in regards to using that statement comes primarily from the fact almost everything about it goes against the idea of a layered, qualitative hierarchy being contained within the Furthest Ring, in the first place.

"It's implied, as I mentioned a few notes ago, that all comprehensible realities to us (such as dream bubble illusions, or Sburb sessions containing entire universes) actually are confined by little bubbles that these beasts whimsically blow, probably for no humanly comprehensible reason. This suggests that this godawful abyss and its gruesome inhabitants are the default reality. And the much more stable, relatable realms we enjoy, such as "a universe," are actually the rare exceptions: totally anomalous, dreamlike fields of experience that exist only briefly relative to the lifespan of these monsters, as the confining bubbles swell and pop."

The Furthest Ring and its Horrorterror inhabitants are the progenitors of the "normal" universes and dream bubbles, but these things aren't actually any sort of fiction or lower reality to them. They are "little bubbles that these beasts whimsically blow", which lines up with the idea of the Horrorterrors being extremely large and unknowable cosmic monstrosities, but not utterly transcendent and unreachable. PM and Jack can see the bleeding, wounded/dead bodies of multiple Horrorterrors floating in the Furthest Ring following Lord English's destruction of a dream bubble, which means entities that are supposed to be the source of all reality that we know of are presented as visible, physically present creatures occupying the same space as two characters who — while powerful — do not possess any degree of narrative transcendence, whatsoever.

I mean, sure, (Though the Ring does just have its own 1-A Feats off its own stuff, from the aspects and being the default reality and stuff) but we also don't know the exact nature/scale of those terrors killed, (our current profile has the Middling Gods as the ones able to create Dream Bubbles, and honestly I question the validity of the noble circle having scaling on that level when we have exactly zero feats for them, like, at all, outside of "they exist here" which I take exception to considering certain things about the FR)

Then, at the end of Pesterquest, we have the previously mentioned moment where the Director flat out suggests the events that are occurring are merely part of that endless stack of creators, not above it. These events directly involve her, Andrew Hussie (off screen), and Ultimate Dirk, whom the Director manages to drive off. Ultimate Dirk is at least on the same level of threat as Lord English, who was murdering the Horrorterrors and breaking the Furthest Ring. How then can the Furthest Ring be utterly transcendent of this hierarchy of creators when characters from inside of it have shown the capacity to meaningfully damage it and slaughter its inhabitants?

I do take an issue with this, mostly because by necessity this entire hierarchy has to be within Paradox Space, whom all the god tiers (whether hax or otherwise) scale to. Their capabilities within reality is another question, (and honestly, that can very well be the solution, that the Director, Dirk and Hussie as we see them are avatars, written into beings by a higher self, which we know is explicit in the second case, and is something we have seen Hussie do, creating the badly drawn versions, the stuff about the yellow yard, etc)

This is all before even accounting for the fact Hussie's statement of the Furthest Ring being the "default reality" was in relation to "all comprehensible realities to us (such as dream bubble illusions, or Sburb sessions containing entire universes)"; nothing in or out of Homestuck proper suggests this must also hold true to all conceivable higher levels of meta-reality, which are never properly explored or shown and are only ever brought up briefly in spinoff material not written by Hussie. It is trying to use Hussie's explanation of the things he himself wrote as justification for something entirely separate that doesn't necessarily abide by the same framework.

Could you integrate an endless R>F hierarchy into Homestuck in a way that meshes with it? Sure. But you can't really do so by saying that said hierarchy is contained entirely within the Furthest Ring, without breaking the requirements for actual R>F transcendence.

I mean, the default reality also has the context of being able to contain every possible world created by Skaia, which, to quote the fandom wiki

Legend holds that Skaia exists as a dormant crucible of unlimited creative potential - a well of potential from which every conceivable possibility arises

Which isn't much for saying "oh the furthest ring has an infinite R>F hierarchy within itself", but it does provide context
Anyways, as I mentioned above, I really really really doubt that this hierachy is wholly literal and isn't in of itself a reference to the concepts homestuck plays with regarding fate and being controlled by a higher unseen power, (I already blathered on about it above), which is very remenincent about the nature of Doom as Fate and Time including inevitability and such (thanks Caliborn). Even moreso when you remember the only other context Creator is used in (in a similar manner with the whole "Creators all the way down bit") is with regards to the players creating their worlds, which could be described as an egress unto itself, but that's a can of worms I'm not wholly sure about.
Is this potentially a reach? Yes. Do I think it explains the nature of a random hierarchy introduced and then discarded with no further elaboration? Also yes.
I can very well see an argument for how the jumps themselves are not fundamentally 1-A, if you take the Creator argument as meaning players creating players so on and so forth.
I do realize I may be derailing at this point, so let me just go back to my central point
I think that the hierarchy no matter what has to be less than Paradox Space, The Retcon and the Blackout (which was cancelled out by First Guardian MSPA Reader)
I think it would be a fair reading to see the hiearchy as something not wholly literal, and instead partially in reference to the nature of the Furthest Ring and Paradox Space as a whole, creators creating realities within which these lesser beings play along the tune designed for them, their singular fate entangled with the fates of greater and greater things, and by the nature of both the Doom, and Time Aspects, what they encompass and that they exist at their highest extent in the FR, makes it so that the creator hiearchy has to exist within it
I would also think its fair to not read it as such, but instead as an infinite regress, that goes higher and higher without any end, author inserts of author inserts, fourth walls within fourth walls, so on and so forth, but which should stop at Paradox Space, which contains everything.

It was not mentioned until Pesterquest. But this does not mean it exists in its entirety inside Pesterquest, or even the version of Homestuck that we're viewing. This hierarchy is never shown. All we're told is that it exists. The idea that the Director is the one that created it would run directly counter to one of the only things we actually know about it, based on what Karako said.

"Above the creator of this world is yet another creator, and above him yet another creator greater even than him, and above her yet another creator!"

There is, within the actual context, effectively no reason to assume "this world" is referring to something other than the reality of Pesterquest. Without actual proof, it's just inserting another R>F hierarchy where one doesn't exist and then assuming the one we're actually shown is something else entirely, instead of actually being the aforementioned hierarchy.

I mean, to my understanding of the argument, it is that the director quite literally wrote that hierarchy into existence, wrote the lines and scenes that contain the information that outline and define said hierarchy's existence, and thus the Director transcends it like someone who writes a story that contains an infinite hierachy of dimensions would, even if those higher dimensions are not shown, an example on wiki rn would be like the Old Ones from dnd ig

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

I mean, sure, (Though the Ring does just have its own 1-A Feats off its own stuff, from the aspects and being the default reality and stuff)

Yeah, I'm not disputing 1-A. I'm only disputing High 1-A based off the current way the hierarchy is implemented on here.

but we also don't know the exact nature/scale of those terrors killed, (our current profile has the Middling Gods as the ones able to create Dream Bubbles, and honestly I question the validity of the noble circle having scaling on that level when we have exactly zero feats for them, like, at all, outside of "they exist here" which I take exception to considering certain things about the FR)

I actually agree with this, considering we have such little information on the Noble Circle. I recall them being referred to as "omnipotent", but that's not really a valid measure of their power considering the same has been said of multiple other characters who very much aren't. I'm almost certain Jade is referred to as such.

I do take an issue with this, mostly because by necessity this entire hierarchy has to be within Paradox Space, whom all the god tiers (whether hax or otherwise) scale to.

See, I don't necessarily agree here. There is really nothing within the main story or otherwise that necessitates such a hierarchy must exist within Paradox Space as we understand it and not some meta level beyond. No information is presented saying this is so, nor is this more meta concept elaborated on further (to my knowledge) beyond what we've already discussed here. It is simply assumed to be true, even if doing so causes intense friction with the primary canon. That is far too big of an assumption to make without proper evidence, especially when talking about the second highest tier a profile on this site can have.

Their capabilities within reality is another question, (and honestly, that can very well be the solution, that the Director, Dirk and Hussie as we see them are avatars, written into beings by a higher self, which we know is explicit in the second case, and is something we have seen Hussie do, creating the badly drawn versions, the stuff about the yellow yard, etc)

This is absolutely a possibility that could align with the infinite regression presented by Pesterquest. But I don't believe anyone would actually scale to these higher selves if we never see them and they are never mentioned. For example, we know Dirk's Ultimate Self has both physical form and a higher, metatextual self. We can scale both of these, but can't assume there are Dirks beyond that for purposes of tiering. It is purely a hypothetical until mentioned within the actual text.

Which isn't much for saying "oh the furthest ring has an infinite R>F hierarchy within itself", but it does provide context
Anyways, as I mentioned above, I really really really doubt that this hierachy is wholly literal and isn't in of itself a reference to the concepts homestuck plays with regarding fate and being controlled by a higher unseen power, (I already blathered on about it above), which is very remenincent about the nature of Doom as Fate and Time including inevitability and such (thanks Caliborn). Even moreso when you remember the only other context Creator is used in (in a similar manner with the whole "Creators all the way down bit") is with regards to the players creating their worlds, which could be described as an egress unto itself, but that's a can of worms I'm not wholly sure about.
Is this potentially a reach? Yes. Do I think it explains the nature of a random hierarchy introduced and then discarded with no further elaboration? Also yes.
I can very well see an argument for how the jumps themselves are not fundamentally 1-A, if you take the Creator argument as meaning players creating players so on and so forth.
I do realize I may be derailing at this point, so let me just go back to my central point
I think that the hierarchy no matter what has to be less than Paradox Space, The Retcon and the Blackout (which was cancelled out by First Guardian MSPA Reader)
I think it would be a fair reading to see the hiearchy as something not wholly literal, and instead partially in reference to the nature of the Furthest Ring and Paradox Space as a whole, creators creating realities within which these lesser beings play along the tune designed for them, their singular fate entangled with the fates of greater and greater things, and by the nature of both the Doom, and Time Aspects, what they encompass and that they exist at their highest extent in the FR, makes it so that the creator hiearchy has to exist within it
I would also think its fair to not read it as such, but instead as an infinite regress, that goes higher and higher without any end, author inserts of author inserts, fourth walls within fourth walls, so on and so forth, but which should stop at Paradox Space, which contains everything.

If you take the whole thing as not entirely literal and more about the endless cycle of creators already presented in Homestuck proper, I do think that solves most of the problems with it. The trolls obviously do not have R>F transcendence over the beta kids, for example. Like I said, I also believe a more literal version of such a hierarchy that does actually abide by R>F could certainly exist, but I don't believe such a thing is contained exclusively within the story/Paradox Space as shown to us and transcended by the "author-tier" characters we see.

I do ultimately believe that whatever is used for the actual profiles' tiers needs significant backing.

Do we treat this hierarchy not as an actual endless R>F stack but instead a more abstract, almost cyclical example of infinite regression? Then it's not High 1-A, but it's a lot easier to fit into Homestuck's story without bending and breaking things.

Or do we treat it as it's currently rated, an infinite regression of R>F with multiple characters also being completely transcendent of it? Then it needs a lot more justification than it has currently: actual examples of these supposed creators that aren't Hussie or the Director, explicit confirmation such a meta hierarchy is wholly confined within the known incarnation of Paradox Space seen in Homestuck, and proving true qualitative transcendence beyond a reasonable doubt would all be necessary. I do not believe any of that has been done, which is why I have such a problem with using it as effectively the only thing holding up a High 1-A rating.

I mean, to my understanding of the argument, it is that the director quite literally wrote that hierarchy into existence, wrote the lines and scenes that contain the information that outline and define said hierarchy's existence, and thus the Director transcends it like someone who writes a story that contains an infinite hierachy of dimensions would, even if those higher dimensions are not shown, an example on wiki rn would be like the Old Ones from dnd ig

The big problem with that argument is that such a hierarchy is never demonstrated to exist inside Pesterquest, which would be the actual requirement for the Director scaling above it. We cannot say that simply because it was acknowledged to exist, it exists in its entirety within the game. Especially since if it did, all of Karako's comments about creators wouldn't even make sense. Who else would he be talking about, when referring to the "creator of this world"? Just someone else never referred to or suggested to exist, anywhere?

If we assume the actual creators we're shown aren't part of this creator hierarchy, then the whole idea of said hierarchy is based on something with no known members that isn't demonstrated to actually exist anywhere and which for some reason excludes anyone who actually fits the criteria of being part of it, simply because they're assumed to scale above it for entirely unsubstantiated reasons.

We have evidence for 1-A, but these current ratings should need more backing them to remain as they are.

 

[Grand_Astartes]

Agree with OP FRA

 

[Deonment]

I actually agree with this, considering we have such little information on the Noble Circle. I recall them being referred to as "omnipotent", but that's not really a valid measure of their power considering the same has been said of multiple other characters who very much aren't. I'm almost certain Jade is referred to as such.

Jade is referred to as such due to First Guardian Stuff, all First Guardians and those who drawn on the Green Sun's Power are actually called Omnipotent, (not even Ult Dirk has been referred to as such iirc, so you could read that as the Horrorterrors having an even greater connection to the Green Sun outside of "It exists in the furthest ring"

See, I don't necessarily agree here. There is really nothing within the main story or otherwise that necessitates such a hierarchy must exist within Paradox Space as we understand it and not some meta level beyond. No information is presented saying this is so, nor is this more meta concept elaborated on further (to my knowledge) beyond what we've already discussed here. It is simply assumed to be true, even if doing so causes intense friction with the primary canon. That is far too big of an assumption to make without proper evidence, especially when talking about the second highest tier a profile on this site can have.

I mean, Paradox Space to my understanding, of Paradox Space is basically that it is either the sum total of all stories that could ever and will ever be told, or the framework within which all these stories are contained and can be written and thus something like this would by necessity be contained within it due to its own metanarrative nature. Though I would have to find those scans that made me believe it (or if I somehow made it up because me and homestuck metaphysics have been fighting for a bit because I think it can do more with its concepts), but from what I can think of off the top of my head, its stuff to do with how Canon, it's three pillars, and The Retcon and it unsticking people all function within it, but I'm honestly fine with just like, discarding this point for now until I can find it, since that'll prolly take me longer than this thread has than I can do.

This is absolutely a possibility that could align with the infinite regression presented by Pesterquest. But I don't believe anyone would actually scale to these higher selves if we never see them and they are never mentioned. For example, we know Dirk's Ultimate Self has both physical form and a higher, metatextual self. We can scale both of these, but can't assume there are Dirks beyond that for purposes of tiering. It is purely a hypothetical until mentioned within the actual text.

I mean to my understanding of how this all works, the metatextual self would be the one at the theoretical highest level, due to a couple of statements, honestly. Firstly, it's the thing being referred to as metatextual in the first place; text, or some equivalent medium, by necessity defines all narratives to begin with, and thus something which transcends it should be beyond those higher and more meta narratives to begin with, and those who can **** around with it are very easily capable of creating avatars for themselves, who can create avatars, so on and so forth, we see this a bunch with hussie, we also see this to some degree with Ult Dirk in Pesterquest with how he manifests peice by peice, drawing himself into existence and all, going from speaking in raw text, directly to the reader, to a physical form.
We also have various statements from the books regarding stuff like this

Spoiler: Book WoGs

Spoiler: Spoilers cause quotes in spoilers are broken

It's a critical question of Homestuck: is AH, the "real" person, closer to the self-insert buffoon or the nefarious meta-villains he has created as projections of his antagonistic creative proclivities? Here we see a better-rendered version of myself positioning a shittily-rendered version of myself to begin typing this white-texted excerpt as if he were a stage prop. You could look at this as a funny gag, which it is. I also see it as a visual expression of the textual detachment between the "real me" and the "cartoon me". I myself am just another prop I can play with for whatever creative purposes i have, and statements I might be making. It's just another way of tipping my hand in these otherwise innocuous seif-insert segments: nothing is really what it appears to be.

Spoiler: Spoilers cause quotes in spoilers are broken

LE arguably is me, but detached from the literel AH persona by several layers of symbolism and exaggerated, ********, in-story avatar composites, to create the ultimate anti-narrative, anti-reader, anti-Homestuck monstrosity. Implacable and invincible. So invincible that, even in a state of imminent defeat, his death can't be shown, because…why would he "give" that to you? But getting into any of that would be skipping too far ahead to Act 7 meta. For now, this just reads as more self-insert buffoonery. It takes a very long time for all of this symbolism to become manifest. (Though for the record, when it finally does, I consider the conclusions about LE as a complex, wrathful, multi-faceted author avatar to be pretty evident. l don't think I'm spilling much Hot Dirt here. ) ... Probably even AH, the character here, doesn't have the slightest idea what LE's true nature is. He's not even really me. He's semi-me, an in-story projection of AH the buffoon, the megalomaniac "godhead" who goofs around, and on some level knows he's just a clown at the mercy of the thing he's making, as much as its creator. He's sort of an innocent victim of this endeavor, almost as much as other characters are.

Spoiler: Spoilers cause quotes in spoilers are broken

It seems like poor AH here doesn't know what he's doing when he's doing this, but clearly I did. This is about as illustrative as anything of the fact that there's a significant difference between AH the character and AH the author.

Quotes I can think of off the top of my head that indicate the so called "real" hussie, the one basically one step removed from the real one by simple fact of being fictional, should exist at the top, but even I can see that this isn't that strong, dependent upon how legitimate you think the stuff referring to hussie the author is, but that's mostly because while I was searching for these book WoG's, I found this statement

It's like a sort of membrane, producing an almost electrostatic buffer that shields one field of narrative potential from another. And if AH understands this on some level, then he's making some (for now) good faith effort to insulate the narrative from this 4th wall meta-fuckery. But the shielding can only last as long as LE himself has not been summoned yet, and is not wearing the coat, which would remove it from the wall (this happens in Cascade, conveniently just before Jade's golden ship crashes through the wall to traverse between sessions, or narrative realms). And since this construct is associated with LE, its partitioning effect also has some insidious implications.

Hussie, what the **** do you mean sessions/genesis frogs are narratives unto themselves. The worst part is that this makes sense considering stuff from ^2 regarding Earth C and what not.
So like, that's something to consider and I'm honestly not sure how much weight I put into it, but its something alright (I DO NOT want every genesis frog to be 1-A)

The big problem with that argument is that such a hierarchy is never demonstrated to exist inside Pesterquest, which would be the actual requirement for the Director scaling above it. We cannot say that simply because it was acknowledged to exist, it exists in its entirety within the game. Especially since if it did, all of Karako's comments about creators wouldn't even make sense. Who else would he be talking about, when referring to the "creator of this world"? Just someone else never referred to or suggested to exist, anywhere?

If we assume the actual creators we're shown aren't part of this creator hierarchy, then the whole idea of said hierarchy is based on something with no known members that isn't demonstrated to actually exist anywhere and which for some reason excludes anyone who actually fits the criteria of being part of it, simply because they're assumed to scale above it for entirely unsubstantiated reasons.

We have evidence for 1-A, but these current ratings should need more backing them to remain as they are.

I mean, honestly I have issues with stuff, but one could read the "creator of this world" using the more metaphorical instantiation of the hierachy as being the 48 squiddles that made the Troll Universe, in the more literal thought, it could be the middling gods/noble circle who made the universe, honestly the more I think on it the more I have issues I have with the hiearchy in general, some with the fact that the Wise One, who reads as a horrorterror, gives the knowledge about the nature of the hiearchy and allows them to ascend or outright transcend it, I genuinely can't in good faith say the hierachy extends beyond the Furthest Ring.

(There is also the thought that the use of Creator in Karako's statement and The Director's own are two separate usages, with the latter being more of a nod to her nature as a self-insert of the actual Director of the game, and thus, "none of this being real" because she's a fictional character writing a fictional story, which contains a fictional version of herself writing, so on and so forth)

But anyways, the hierarchy not being demonstrated to exist in it isn't an issue because the details and stuff regarding it is something she wrote into existence, it's a concept she made and placed into the game, gave Karako/The Wise One dialogue that spoke to its existence, she by kinda just has to transcend it by necessity for the same reason a book saying "I, the author, am part of this story" doesn't actually affect the author's own reality, because it's fiction to them, its something they wrote, no matter how much they try and say otherwise, it doesn't make it any more real, or them any less real.

 

[Apex_Predator_GX]

Azathoth is back!

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Jade is referred to as such due to First Guardian Stuff, all First Guardians and those who drawn on the Green Sun's Power are actually called Omnipotent, (not even Ult Dirk has been referred to as such iirc, so you could read that as the Horrorterrors having an even greater connection to the Green Sun outside of "It exists in the furthest ring"

Yeah, this is my point. "Omnipotent" isn't really a signifier of being legitimately all-powerful in Homestuck, but more so of "absurdly strong being that is also probably connected to the Green Sun". Which gives us a sort of baseline for where the Noble Circle should be in terms of power, but not much beyond that.

[snip about Paradox Space]

Appreciate the effort. There's some stuff I'd like to dig up more direct quotes for as well, but unfortunately the website is still a bit of a mess and Homestuck is long as hell. Not to mention typing quirks can make Ctrl+F sort of a pain in the ass, even if everything wasn't split across thousands of pages. lol

Been meaning to do a reread via the Unofficial Collection sometime soon, so maybe I'll have more after that.

I mean to my understanding of how this all works, the metatextual self would be the one at the theoretical highest level, due to a couple of statements, honestly. Firstly, it's the thing being referred to as metatextual in the first place; text, or some equivalent medium, by necessity defines all narratives to begin with, and thus something which transcends it should be beyond those higher and more meta narratives to begin with,

But again, this is sort of my problem here. The metatextual characters of Homestuck are basically the only ones who showcase actual 1-A levels of qualitative transcendence over the narrative. It's extremely clear how to them, everything becomes like a fictional story that can be changed and edited to their will. If we assume they aren't part of the infinite regress of creators, then what actually makes the infinite stack of creators 1-A+ and not High 1-B? Without examples of what it actually is, the only information we have to go off of isn't enough to establish an endless series of true qualitative superiority. Karako's line of "These vast powers move all things like pieces on a chessboard — yet if the chess pieces grow wise enough, they may move the movers!!" even suggests the exact opposite.

and those who can **** around with it are very easily capable of creating avatars for themselves, who can create avatars, so on and so forth, we see this a bunch with hussie, we also see this to some degree with Ult Dirk in Pesterquest with how he manifests peice by peice, drawing himself into existence and all, going from speaking in raw text, directly to the reader, to a physical form.

Yeah, this is what I'd mentioned before. But once more, nothing about what he does or says implies an infinite stack of Dirks. There's the metatextual Dirk, who exists in the narrative itself, and the corporeal Dirk, who is merely an avatar representing a force that's transcended the bounds of personhood. This is the extremely clear level of R>F transcendence that isn't demonstrated on any lesser scale.

It's a critical question of Homestuck: is AH, the "real" person, closer to the self-insert buffoon or the nefarious meta-villains he has created as projections of his antagonistic creative proclivities? Here we see a better-rendered version of myself positioning a shittily-rendered version of myself to begin typing this white-texted excerpt as if he were a stage prop. You could look at this as a funny gag, which it is. I also see it as a visual expression of the textual detachment between the "real me" and the "cartoon me". I myself am just another prop I can play with for whatever creative purposes i have, and statements I might be making. It's just another way of tipping my hand in these otherwise innocuous seif-insert segments: nothing is really what it appears to be.

LE arguably is me, but detached from the literel AH persona by several layers of symbolism and exaggerated, ********, in-story avatar composites, to create the ultimate anti-narrative, anti-reader, anti-Homestuck monstrosity. Implacable and invincible. So invincible that, even in a state of imminent defeat, his death can't be shown, because…why would he "give" that to you? But getting into any of that would be skipping too far ahead to Act 7 meta. For now, this just reads as more self-insert buffoonery. It takes a very long time for all of this symbolism to become manifest. (Though for the record, when it finally does, I consider the conclusions about LE as a complex, wrathful, multi-faceted author avatar to be pretty evident. l don't think I'm spilling much Hot Dirt here. ) ... Probably even AH, the character here, doesn't have the slightest idea what LE's true nature is. He's not even really me. He's semi-me, an in-story projection of AH the buffoon, the megalomaniac "godhead" who goofs around, and on some level knows he's just a clown at the mercy of the thing he's making, as much as its creator. He's sort of an innocent victim of this endeavor, almost as much as other characters are.

It seems like poor AH here doesn't know what he's doing when he's doing this, but clearly I did. This is about as illustrative as anything of the fact that there's a significant difference between AH the character and AH the author.

I'm actually really glad you brought these up, because they're good further evidence for Homestuck having R>F in general, as well as helping solidify LE's tier — the middle quote pretty effectively explains why his defeat literally could not exist within the "canon" Homestuck written purely by Hussie, and why he could only be fully killed in the post-canon/dubiously canon/beyond canon/whatever aftermath.

But I'll reiterate: if some of the only true examples of R>F exist at the apex of the narrative, and we really want to say this implied hierarchy of creators isn't part of it, then what actual reason is there for said hierarchy to have R>F transcendence?

Hussie, what the **** do you mean sessions/genesis frogs are narratives unto themselves. The worst part is that this makes sense considering stuff from ^2 regarding Earth C and what not.
So like, that's something to consider and I'm honestly not sure how much weight I put into it, but its something alright (I DO NOT want every genesis frog to be 1-A)

Tbf, based on the context I'm not entirely sure he's equating sessions to the narrative as a whole, but yeah it's kind of vague.

That said, immediately after the bit you posted he says:

• "As a supreme author-tier villain who wears this thing, its insulating, enveloping effect serves to keep him detached and distinct from the narrative field which he terrorizes. In his absence, it seems I’m “unwittingly” using it to envelop the narrative itself, starting now. It’s almost like the story is now wearing the coat. And as a result, he’s managing to stake a sort of claim over it. As if to say, this is mine, or intrinsically consists of me and my evil desires. The story is keeping my coat warm until I’m able to fill it physically. And now is also the moment where Doc is beginning to become more aggressive in directly pulling the strings on the story to bring about the emergence of his master."

More Lord English upscaling. This is pretty fantastic explanation of Lord English's metatextual self, even if it doesn't manifest in the same way as Ultimate Dirk's. The Cairo Overcoat being enveloped over the narrative itself, even in LE's physical absence, is representative of how Homestuck is intrinsically his story, which bends and warps around his disembodied presence. He could not be defeated in Homestuck, because Homestuck ultimately belongs to him.

Gotta say, even though Alternate Calliope claims she would still have been stronger than English at his best, I don't know if any other character actually has quite his level of metanarrative immortality. Homestuck had to stop and enter a period of "dubious authenticity" for him to be killed, because otherwise the narrative was still about him.

I mean, honestly I have issues with stuff, but one could read the "creator of this world" using the more metaphorical instantiation of the hierachy as being the 48 squiddles that made the Troll Universe, in the more literal thought, it could be the middling gods/noble circle who made the universe, honestly the more I think on it the more I have issues I have with the hiearchy in general

You are not the only one.

But anyways, the hierarchy not being demonstrated to exist in it isn't an issue because the details and stuff regarding it is something she wrote into existence, it's a concept she made and placed into the game, gave Karako/The Wise One dialogue that spoke to its existence, she by kinda just has to transcend it by necessity for the same reason a book saying "I, the author, am part of this story" doesn't actually affect the author's own reality, because it's fiction to them, its something they wrote, no matter how much they try and say otherwise, it doesn't make it any more real, or them any less real.

This applies to the real world Director (even though the Director's irl self is Aysha U. Farah and Feferi's Pesterquest route was written by Thomas Carr), but obviously we're not scaling the real world Aysha or the real world Andrew Hussie, who are not actually a part of "Homestuck" as a story. In Hussie's own words from one of the quotes you brought up:

• "Probably even AH, the character here, doesn't have the slightest idea what LE's true nature is. He's not even really me. He's semi-me, an in-story projection of AH the buffoon, the megalomaniac "godhead" who goofs around, and on some level knows he's just a clown at the mercy of the thing he's making, as much as its creator. He's sort of an innocent victim of this endeavor, almost as much as other characters are."

Both the Director and the Hussie that appear in Homestuck are still constructs existing within the story, and for all their power, still do not have complete control. Hussie is very deliberate in this assertion. We cannot scale the Director, a fictional representation of Aysha U. Farah within the narrative of Pesterquest, to the real Aysha U. Farah because she wrote about a thing. Especially when the fictional Aysha says, "Well, it didn't actually happen, because none of this is happening. Creators all the way down, and suchlike.", which is a pretty clear acknowledgment that regardless of how we determine this hierarchy of creators, she's aware that she isn't real.


TL;DR: IMPORTANT STUFF BELOW

The longer we go on with this, the more I worry we may stray from the initial point and get nothing done, so I'll try to condense what I believe to be most important, below. I'd advise anyone contributing to read this part, whether they're a newcomer or familiar with the thread.

The current interpretation of the hierarchy of creators given on the Homestuck pages, which provides the verse with High 1-A tiering, is not properly substantiated.

There are three main ways to fix this:

1. As the Director implies in Pesterquest's final route, treat "author-tier" characters as if they're part of this endless hierarchy. This solves the problem of an infinite regress of R>F characters that are never seen nor mentioned somehow being present.
2. Treat this hierarchy not as an endless stack of qualitative superiority, but a quantitative one. This solves the problem of the creatures that exist within the "default reality" of the Furthest Ring being perceptible and able to be affected by "lower beings", as well as why the examples of legitimate R>F transcendence are treated as so much more spectacular. This also solves the problem of why what is likely a Horrorterror would know about it.
3. Keep the hierarchy as is, being an infinite stack of qualitative superiority, which "author-tier" characters transcend entirely. If this one is done, we need substantially better evidence and to address a number of problems. Such as...

• If the actual creators we see in the series aren't part of this endless series of creators, then who is? Why do we never see them and why are they never referred to, anywhere else? Provide at least a single example of a higher level in this hierarchy that demonstrates R>F transcendence.
• What is the actual evidence provided for this being a qualitative hierarchy and not a quantitative one? Karako's words about it directly state lesser "pieces" can still "move the movers", and the idea of being "infinitely greater" is a quantitative measure. We need to give quotes that actually show lesser levels are fiction/dreams/illusions/etc., to these creators.
• Why does the Director, a being who we are saying transcends this hierarchy of creators, refer to events on her level of existence as not actually happening, before saying "Creators all the way down"? If this does not suggest she is in fact just another creator in this hierarchy, what text from the story can be used to provide a more likely alternative?

The first two options change anyone who is currently High 1-A to 1-A. The second also upgrades the highest level of reality before true narrative transcendence to High 1-B, though I can't think of how important that actually is.

The third option is what we currently have, but if we keep it, it needs legitimate evidence. I'm not saying such evidence doesn't exist in the vast mass of clusterfuckery that is Homestuck, but it certainly isn't being provided here.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Azathoth is back!

Temporarily, and only because I read Homestuck as a teenager and unknowingly initiated an infernal blood-pact, and now Andrew Hussie has an eternal vise-grip on my neck as he slowly siphons my soul to create more Makeship plushies.

 

[Deonment]

Gotta say, even though Alternate Calliope claims she would still have been stronger than English at his best, I don't know if any other character actually has quite his level of metanarrative immortality. Homestuck had to stop and enter a period of "dubious authenticity" for him to be killed, because otherwise the narrative was still about him.

I mean, tbh, that's honestly how I interpret why Alt Calliope got stronger after consuming LE, because she overtook English, in a similar way to how the Green Sun, which was only made of two universes, was the fulcrum of the narrative, with narrative weight that was very much beyond everyone else, and so as someone who works on a narrative level and such like, it wasn't just the physical power, but also the narrative ones, the role, symbolism, and what have you, that she had spike.

Tbf, based on the context I'm not entirely sure he's equating sessions to the narrative as a whole, but yeah it's kind of vague.

I mean honestly, yeah, it is pretty vague (could just read it as instead talking about them passing through the Fenstrated Planes/Fourth Walls, but there's also stuff from the epilogues and ^2 about Earth C, its sheningans and timelines that make me think its possible, but I will not be the one to argue that (and put that evil on this verse)

This applies to the real world Director (even though the Director's irl self is Aysha U. Farah and Feferi's Pesterquest route was written by Thomas Carr), but obviously we're not scaling the real world Aysha or the real world Andrew Hussie, who are not actually a part of "Homestuck" as a story. In Hussie's own words from one of the quotes you brought up:

• "Probably even AH, the character here, doesn't have the slightest idea what LE's true nature is. He's not even really me. He's semi-me, an in-story projection of AH the buffoon, the megalomaniac "godhead" who goofs around, and on some level knows he's just a clown at the mercy of the thing he's making, as much as its creator. He's sort of an innocent victim of this endeavor, almost as much as other characters are."

Both the Director and the Hussie that appear in Homestuck are still constructs existing within the story, and for all their power, still do not have complete control. Hussie is very deliberate in this assertion. We cannot scale the Director, a fictional representation of Aysha U. Farah within the narrative of Pesterquest, to the real Aysha U. Farah because she wrote about a thing. Especially when the fictional Aysha says, "Well, it didn't actually happen, because none of this is happening. Creators all the way down, and suchlike.", which is a pretty clear acknowledgment that regardless of how we determine this hierarchy of creators, she's aware that she isn't real.

Honestly, fair enough (though I still think that like with the earlier quote regarding the difference between the "real hussie" and the "cartoon hussie" is still something that applies in universe, but that isn't wholly relevant to this debate)

TL;DR:

I personally am leaning towards the second option in retrospect, considering the discussion we've had during this thread, and for who it would scale to, it would allow for like Noble Circle/Middling Gods/whichever one of the two we decide scales to dream bubbles to be High 1-B or Low 1-A, end dependent on how we treat their statements, but I'll leave the decision up to voting staff

Temporarily, and only because I read Homestuck as a teenager and unknowingly initiated an infernal blood-pact, and now Andrew Hussie has an eternal vise-grip on my neck as he slowly siphons my soul to create more Makeship plushies.

This implies hussie is some kind of undead or demon, (which I would buy honestly) and I have fallen for the same ruse too sadly (LE knows the animation is going to have the strength of an industrial strength on my soul)

And I will say, this was a fun debate ngl, thanks for having it with me

 

[FoxySonicMaster108]

There is the stuff from Friendsim, but how relevant it is, I’m actually not sure.

Regardless I think it’d be best to keep High 1-A as a possibly, but I don’t exactly disagree with the infinite hierarchy being High 1-B, but people can interpret that differently as 1-A+, but if y’all just want it to stay as High 1-B, that’s fine too.

But yeah, what Deon said, this was a great debate (even if I didn’t do that much)

 

[Accelerate420]

If a decision has to be made, I'm alright with the second option or a "possibly" rating. I do think there's room to reinterpret the logic being put forth regarding how we're assuming the structure isn't R > F with what's been said about the recursion perspective, but at the moment I don't personally have time to fight that battle so there's always next time to get into a greater debate about it. I also assume more proof is needed than just a convincing perspective, so there's that too.

 

[Withersoul_235]

Though I am not staff, I'm personally fine with the High 1-B / Low 1-A rating for the infinite hierarchy.

 

[Zarovut]

With the Infintie Hierarchy in agreement to be either High 1-B or Low 1-A, what characters will have their tiers affected?

 

[Deonment]

With the Infintie Hierarchy in agreement to be either High 1-B or Low 1-A, what characters will have their tiers affected?

if the hierarchy is accepted to be High 1-B (I wasn't arguing for it to be Low 1-A mind you), then by our current scaling (which I have issues with but ones that I will deal with in the scaling thread if the other character overhaul ever actually gets accepted)
Hierachy=High 1-B
Middling Gods/Possible Noble Circle, Transcendence Path MSPA Reader and Feferi=High 1-B or Low 1-A, im partial to the latter
Furthest Ring, Possibly Noble Circle=1-A
Paradox Space=1 Layer into 1-A
Metatexual/Narrative Characters=2 Layer into 1-A
First Guardian MSPA Reader=3 Layers into 1-A
Basically bar some reshuffling about of where people scale, it's just replacing the High 1-A in the scaling chain with 1-A

 

[Thelastmlg]

sorry for not responding before, i was frankly not in the mood to deal with a downgrade relatively soon after the damn thread got accepted

The meta-rivers that Feferi is given the chance to transcend are not the same thing as the hierarchy of creators. Karako brings up the creators after talking about the rivers, even prefacing it by saying "Yet also remain humble!", clarifying that even enlightened there are things vaster and grander than you. Yes, he also talks about the ability to "move the movers" (which is more likely foreshadowing of something later), but this is not the same as utterly transcending something. Hell, he directly compares it to being a key piece at the bottom of a Jenga tower, which seems like a pretty clear means of showing something that understands its nature in a story can have sway without direct transcendence.

separating the rivers from the hierachy of creators makes no sense to me tbh, the meta-rivers are not literal rivers, that's the metaphorical part, rivers are a common way of explaining fate and choices, and it is a call back to friendsim where the reader imagines causality like a river

1. both the hierachy and rivers are extremely similarily explained, they are both higher worlds that control the events of the lower ones, that are controlled by even higher forces while unbound by the lower ones, and in both cases Karako mentions the ability of influencing them (moving your course through the river and moving the movers) the only difference we see there is that the rivers seem to be just the fates of those worlds while the hierachy seems to be sentient beings controlling the lower worlds, and well, i think that works togheter actually, the way i interpreted was simply that the rivers are the metaphor for fates of each of those universes where the creators are.

2. Karako gives them the choice to transcend and comprehend all of those things to reach the full light of reality, which doesn't make sense to me if at the end they are only able to understand only half of those things while the other is infinitely harder and unreachable.

3. the finaly dialogue effectively blends the hierachy and rivers togheter:

Or knowing these things, do you instead choose to ply your vessel in the waters of your own world, remaining the person life has made you? Remaining a key yet unknowing piece in the towering stack of universes, influencing your own destiny on the corporeal river, swept to destinations beyond your understanding in fulfillment of the larger Story?? Either choice is noble, little one. Your only duty and burden is to choose the one that seems best to you!"

i honestly not sure how we can interpret this as him talking about two distinct cosmological planes, it just sounds like he's refering to the rivers and universes (which are refering to the creators worlds as we see in the dialogue) as basically the same "system" that they have the choice of ascending through them.

At no point are the number of levels Feferi is transcending referred to as "infinite". The closest we get is that "infinitely tall Jenga tower" statement, which is about the hierarchy of creators. In fact, Karako only says there are "many such metaphorical cosmic meta-river levels in this particular instantiation of the Story" and that Feferi can transcend them "one by one", which suggests the number of levels within "this particular instantiation of the Story" (Pesterquest) is very much not infinite. Just "many".

This is fair if we don't agree on my explanation on why they are the same system, but if you do, he only calls it infinite way after this so his many could be refering to infinite, again, if you accept them as the same thing of course.

but the "one by one" doesn't actually contradict it, is common in fiction for infinite things to be done overtime, and in fact, homestuck has this in some plot points:

1. The Red Miles were shown to both destroy the frog itself and actually enter the timelines inside to rip them apart, there are infinite timelines there and calliope states that from their point of reference, the red miles were destroying those universes for eons, and some took longer to reach due to being shoved deeper in the frog's blowsack thingie.

2. Rose and Dave were buried in the center of the Green Sun, which is larger than a Genesis Frog, and they reached the surface, with the book saying that "it would take a while" for them to come out.

3. even not counting those, Lord English was destroying reality overtime, and even if you ignore the evidence of it being affecting paradox space (which i'm neutral on and wanna tackle on the future scaling thread), Furthest ring is still infinite, and yet he was considered a threat to it even when he was just caliborn, in fact, calliope implies that Lord English would destroy it all in a "given cosmic span", a finite measure of time.

so really only separating the hierachy and rivers implies it to be finite with the "many" line, not Feferi's trascendence speed

Despite the word "meta" being used, the levels of transcendence achieved by Feferi and the MSPA Reader at the end of this path don't actually have any direct signs of R>F. They're simply described as "vaster" and "infinitely greater", which on its own doesn't seem like enough to say they're 1-A in scope (this is honestly less of a problem than the previous two points, to me).

This one is totally fair if you are separating them actually, i do agree that most of the explanation makes it seem like they are, at best, infinitely larger than lower ones, but the end dialogue does say that:

Remaining a key yet unknowing piece in the towering stack of universes, influencing your own destiny on the corporeal river, swept to destinations beyond your understanding in fulfillment of the larger Story

Homestuck pretty much always use the term "story" on the meta sense, rather than referring to "history" or something, however, you could argue this is referring to the final level, the "full light of reality", and i think that's fair

since i'm leaning on them being the same thing, i think it would work to use likely/possibly at a worst case scenario, but i frankly think it is solid enough for them to be the same (and we see later that those creators are the narrative style ones)

You can go through with this in an alternate ending to the route, and the level of transcendence implied by Feferi's profile just straight up doesn't happen. The most that's said about it is "You and Feferi are seated in full lotus position on either side of a fresh-air conch, cozy in a bubble floating deep through the vast oceans of Alternia, where you can never be found by anyone until you emerge fully enlightened and with the power of gods, many yugas hence." This does not feel like it's even close to enough evidence to justify achieving a High 1-A level of transcendence, let alone 1-A. Especially in Homestuck, which is no stranger to showing off the effects of metanarrative meddling.

i don't see why this being an alternate ending is relevant, for one, i'm pretty sure all endings are canon? i might be misrembering it but i recall something about MSPAReader recalling/talking about all the other endings they could've taken? i might be misremebering it

but anyway, it being an alternate route, even if it never happens doesn't actually change anything.

for the cosmology: the only relevant part is those higher universes being a thing, not either or not the characters ever acknowledge them, the route being noncanon/never happening doesn't change that.

for feferi: the key in her page is not for her actual canon self (after all pesterquest's story is its own timeline), it is specifically the feferi of this route that's being scaled, not main timeline feferi and not even the feferi in the other endings of pesterquest

though if this is not enough for a key for her and MSPAReader, i am not against that ofc

In fact, I'm pretty sure nobody scales to this full hierarchy of creators, as it's (unsurprisingly) at least partially a metacommentary and not something meant to be purely part of the cosmology in-universe. The reason I say this is because in the true ending, when the Reader is shunted out of the story and into the epilogue, they have a talk with "the Director", who makes it clear that the events occurring are still part of the endless hierarchy of creators.

• "Wait, you did that? But you remember the other story. The real story. The one that just ended with everything fallen to shit! Are you saying all of that didn't happen?
• 'No, it happened. Well, it didn't actually happen, because none of this is happening. Creators all the way down, and suchlike.'"

The Director operates on the same level of metanarrative as Andrew Hussie and Ultimate Dirk, yet acknowledges that the events she's taking part in are still just part of that never-ending series of creators. Which means that right now, quite a few characters are scaled based on transcending a hierarchy they are explicitly a part of.

being a metacommentary doesn't change much, most of homestuck is that, they are still presented as something that's part of their cosmology.

for the other, I don't see the issue here? they are referring to the story MSPAReader is going through, they are not talking about the limit of the cosmology or the extent of their power? remember, Ultimate Dirk is using a corporeal form there while his form is in a higher textual plane and the director actually showcases some hints of that form not being her true self, such as:

-talking about using ren'py, including voice acting, saving and modifying files, which she points out not even dirk can do
-calling dirk not real
-refering to programmers and artists of the game
-her fight with dirk not being an actual fight but being refered to as "two people fighting over a pen to write, or pushing each other off a keyboard"
-her form fading in and out while dirk's corporeal form has its "art layers" glitched around, then later she leveas fading slowly

this kind of connects with another point i noticed in the comments, that certain characters like hussie and lord english shouldn't scale that high because they don't transcend everyone else, and like, no? they are just smurfs in stats and hax (well hussie is more contentions to just hax), we have accepted characters scaling to higher dimensional levels while being 3D, both in stats and hax, why is it a issue in homestuck?

so yeah i disagree with the premise of this thread, a lot of it seems to be, admitedly, subjective interpretations of the dialogue, but i think the current interpretation works just fine on its own and at best, it would involve adding likely/possibly to the cosmology's level in the pages and such

EDIT: also minor point that i forgot to write, but they are called universes, meanwhile the sum of existence is refered to as the multiverses, both by vriska and ultimate dirk, though this being just some labels doesn't hold as much weight as the other points, just a tiny support

imma reply to some points made in the replies too, if i miss any please point them out

The Furthest Ring and its Horrorterror inhabitants are the progenitors of the "normal" universes and dream bubbles, but these things aren't actually any sort of fiction or lower reality to them. They are "little bubbles that these beasts whimsically blow", which lines up with the idea of the Horrorterrors being extremely large and unknowable cosmic monstrosities, but not utterly transcendent and unreachable. PM and Jack can see the bleeding, wounded/dead bodies of multiple Horrorterrors floating in the Furthest Ring following Lord English's destruction of a dream bubble, which means entities that are supposed to be the source of all reality that we know of are presented as visible, physically present creatures occupying the same space as two characters who — while powerful — do not possess any degree of narrative transcendence, whatsoever.

AP and Hax, they don't need to be physically trascendent over them, large size is not really a requirement for outer and above, at best they'd have beyond dimensional existence, but regardless of that, we have no idea which horrorterrors blow bubbles or not, since we know that there is a hierachy of them of different sizes and powers, but have no idea which is which and which does what, the page currently puts the middling gods as in charge of it but the story never seems to indicate who does that, for all we know, those wounded horrorterrors can be weaker ones that don't do anything

this text does imply that any horrorterror can do that but i think that just proves that they simply have the power to do that and that they don't necessarily need to have higher sizes or anything to do so, or real even view them as actual fiction, just being disconnected from their reality and events.

pretty much all comments talking about Lord English fighting the army and all that

imma be real this point of you guys makes no sense, lord english scales to paradox space (yes i have seen the arguments of him only scaling to the furthest ring, i wanna leave that discussion to the scaling thread once the P&A one gets done), due to his lasers and hax, the page does put a justification of him scaling to the characters that transcend the rivers but i have my issues with that too and wanna remove it, but tbh, again, you guys seem to be implying that is required of you to have larger size to be outer

he can fist fight the army because he scales high in stats and hax, not existence beyond some acausality and state of nigh omnipresence, well, sort of, you guys did show that he does have a metatextual self different from ultimate selves, but i think that form doesn't really debunk the scaling since it is more so the form that embodies his hax, immortality and reach in the story, while his physical form can just, scale to whatever level we have it through his direct attacks and such

let's say he gets downgraded to low outer or even high hyper, what's the difference, how did this argument fix that if he's still infinite dimensional and fighting 3D characters? is just kind of the same thing

yeah i don't see how this debunks anything

i think that's all, from what i saw most of the discussion is still talking about if the characters within the hierachy or not, or based on the rivers and hierachy are distinct, which i disagree with so i'm not sure what i could provide to the discussion

 

[Accelerate420]

I do think that using "the pieces may move the movers" as proof of there not being r > f superiority was a very interpretive stance to take rather than one logically sound, as one can easily just say they mean this by other means such as of emotions and not actually physically rough housing them. There are examples of meta authors having been 'moved' by those lesser than them (see Featherine and Umineko as an example), and, since the thread has been keen to also see authors as vehicles of meta commentary (which yes they are its one of the cool parts of homestuck), this can also translate to how an author can be affected by their work as well in other ways.

Even then, we could impose that the pieces could also find means to transcend their reality to reach their creators as well. I mean, we have plenty of instances of metatexual transcendence in characters anyways. Why would we assume that the creators creations would not be capable of the same feats depending on the scenario? This one is assuming a lot, but it's pointing out that there's a precedent.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Sorry for the delay. For some reason, I never got a notification about any new responses and lost track of time.

Anyway, because a lot of discussion has been had since the OP, I am only going to reply to anything immediately relevant to the most recent discussion. Trust me, this isn't meant as a slight. I just want to make sure we're actually covering the main point that this has already been boiled down to and not accidentally going in circles.

This one is totally fair if you are separating them actually, i do agree that most of the explanation makes it seem like they are, at best, infinitely larger than lower ones, but the end dialogue does say that:

Remaining a key yet unknowing piece in the towering stack of universes, influencing your own destiny on the corporeal river, swept to destinations beyond your understanding in fulfillment of the larger Story

Homestuck pretty much always use the term "story" on the meta sense, rather than referring to "history" or something, however, you could argue this is referring to the final level, the "full light of reality", and i think that's fair

since i'm leaning on them being the same thing, i think it would work to use likely/possibly at a worst case scenario, but i frankly think it is solid enough for them to be the same (and we see later that those creators are the narrative style ones)

It does often do this. But the times "story" is used during Karako's dialogue are as follows:

1. "There are many such metaphorical cosmic meta-river levels in this particular instantiation of the Story. Thus, even if you row with utmost power to change your course on the river you are navigating — the river you can see — the other meta-rivers continue to sweep you on as before, without regard for any tiny adjustments you may make down at your level."
2. "Or knowing these things, do you instead choose to ply your vessel in the waters of your own world, remaining the person life has made you? Remaining a key yet unknowing piece in the towering stack of universes, influencing your own destiny on the corporeal river, swept to destinations beyond your understanding in fulfillment of the larger Story??"

If we assume the hierarchy of creators and these meta-river levels are one and the same, neither of these indicate that the idea of "the Story" is a single layer of this hierarchy, but instead that the hierarchy is encompassed within it. The reason that's an issue is something I've already brought up, and will again address below.

for the other, I don't see the issue here? they are referring to the story MSPAReader is going through, they are not talking about the limit of the cosmology or the extent of their power? remember, Ultimate Dirk is using a corporeal form there while his form is in a higher textual plane and the director actually showcases some hints of that form not being her true self, such as:

-talking about using ren'py, including voice acting, saving and modifying files, which she points out not even dirk can do
-calling dirk not real
-refering to programmers and artists of the game
-her fight with dirk not being an actual fight but being refered to as "two people fighting over a pen to write, or pushing each other off a keyboard"
-her form fading in and out while dirk's corporeal form has its "art layers" glitched around, then later she leveas fading slowly

[...]

so yeah i disagree with the premise of this thread, a lot of it seems to be, admitedly, subjective interpretations of the dialogue, but i think the current interpretation works just fine on its own and at best, it would involve adding likely/possibly to the cosmology's level in the pages and such

With the current interpretation listed on the pages, every character in Homestuck that has demonstrated actual R>F transcendence scales above this hierarchy. The problem with that is then that there is nothing that supports the hierarchy being one of complete qualitative superiority in the first place, instead of simply one of quantitative superiority.

If the hierarchy is fully within "this particular instantiation of the Story" and we assume the Director's words aren't meant to reflect she's actually within the hierarchy, then characters like her, Ultimate Dirk, Hussie, etc. all scale above it. Which means none of the creators within said hierarchy are even shown, nor are their degrees of transcendence elaborated upon. The most we get from Karako is the following:

1. The higher levels of this hierarchy are referred to as "unimaginably vaster" and "infinitely greater."
2. The term "meta" is repeatedly used to describe them and other things in Karako's speech, which he also claims are "metaphorical" representations of the truth.
3. There are greater creators beyond the creator of this world, stacking indefinitely or potentially infinitely.
4. The way they move the beings below them is compared to moving pieces on a chessboard, though Karako also says, "if the chess pieces grow wise enough, they may move the movers!!"
5. These powers are "unimaginably large" while Feferi and MSPA Reader are "unimaginably small", but they and their world are indispensable and compared to "a key piece at the bottom of an infinitely tall Jenga tower."

The issue here is obvious. While statements like beings existing on an "infinitely greater" scale are enough to provide a jumps all the way up to High 1-B if this is truly an infinite regress, nothing here is actually enough to prove this is a R>F hierarchy. There are, to my knowledge, no direct statements within the story likening the levels of transcendence in this hierarchy to fiction/illusions/anything truly insubstantial, and no one has brought them up if there actually are. This is the most explanation this hierarchy gets.

Why then is it treated as an endless R>F hierarchy, without proper evidence? We need something far more substantial to link on pages than the mere possibility that it could be, but we don't seem to have that. We don't even seem to have any example of members of this hierarchy even a single layer up, meaning we can't use them to figure out what type of transcendence they possess. All of it is based on what Karako says, but nothing in his speech warrants R>F, let alone infinite layers of it, without proper support.

This largely seems to come from the fact that these unseen "creators" are being treated as though their transcendence comparable to Hussie or whoever else operates on his level, but then also treating Hussie and anyone else in that league as fundamentally beyond this creator hierarchy entirely, which gives no reason for these other creators to possess true R>F transcendence, at all.

AP and Hax, they don't need to be physically trascendent over them, large size is not really a requirement for outer and above

We are specifically discussing R>F transcendence, which is the entire reason Homestuck currently is where it is. Such physical transcendence isn't a requirement if there's overwhelming evidence to their qualitative superiority anyway, which there isn't. It's less so that things like this are deal-breakers on their own and more so that it's just one of many things that makes them having infinite R>F transcendence based on a largely unexplored hierarchy more and more unlikely.

The most important question of this whole thing is really just, "What is the actual evidence that this endless stack of creators is a true R>F hierarchy?" The current High 1-A tiers are based entirely upon that assumption, thus we should be able to substantiate it beyond a reasonable doubt, if it's to stay as is. Nothing brought up so far has actually done so, which is why I feel something like the tiers mentioned here are much easier to back up.

he can fist fight the army because he scales high in stats and hax, not existence beyond some acausality and state of nigh omnipresence, well, sort of, you guys did show that he does have a metatextual self different from ultimate selves, but i think that form doesn't really debunk the scaling since it is more so the form that embodies his hax, immortality and reach in the story, while his physical form can just, scale to whatever level we have it through his direct attacks and such

Though this is divergent from the main topic, as Deonment and I discussed above, I do actually agree now that the fact LE can be smacked around in his physical form and is susceptible to various things he should be completely beyond isn't really relevant to his tiering, due to the the explanation of his metatextual nature Hussie gave in the book commentary. It covers certain things about him more clearly and concisely than the webcomic itself.

 

[Withersoul_235]

Based on the current answers, I'm in favour of downgrading the Jenga Tower to High Hyper, unless I missed something that implies otherwise.

 

[Withersoul_235]

Nothing brought up so far has actually done so, which is why I feel something like the tiers mentioned here are much easier to back up.

Out of curiosity, why would the Furthest Ring be placed at 1-A, as it was formerly Low 1-A? Even the Noble Circle is still placed (largely) at Low 1-A in that reply, so I'm curious what the change is for.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Out of curiosity, why would the Furthest Ring be placed at 1-A, as it was formerly Low 1-A? Even the Noble Circle is still placed (largely) at Low 1-A in that reply, so I'm curious what the change is for.

I believe Deonment was basing it off our current scaling, though I don't know what the exact reason for it is. I think it might just be Low 1-A if the hierarchy becomes High 1-B, though the number of pages that meaningfully affects is pretty slim.

I'm also not sure MSPA Reader should be an entire narrative layer above every other metatextual character, all things considered. Aren't they currently scaled an entire R>F level above Alternate Calliope for doing something extremely similar? May have to look at that one, again.

But the general idea of the scale is sound.

 

[Deonment]

he can fist fight the army because he scales high in stats and hax, not existence beyond some acausality and state of nigh omnipresence, well, sort of, you guys did show that he does have a metatextual self different from ultimate selves, but i think that form doesn't really debunk the scaling since it is more so the form that embodies his hax, immortality and reach in the story, while his physical form can just, scale to whatever level we have it through his direct attacks and such

I mean, the issue here is that existence and AP for 1-A and up are the same thing, they have 1-A AP because their existence is literally more real, if you don't have the existence you don't have the AP (unless you have hax on a higher level, ie, someone in a CN commanding a 1-A Dao)

Out of curiosity, why would the Furthest Ring be placed at 1-A, as it was formerly Low 1-A? Even the Noble Circle is still placed (largely) at Low 1-A in that reply, so I'm curious what the change is for.

believe Deonment was basing it off our current scaling, though I don't know what the exact reason for it is. I think it might just be Low 1-A if the hierarchy becomes High 1-B, though the number of pages that meaningfully affects is pretty slim.

I already asked ultima about it before (offsite) but to actually explain why (I can grab the scans if needed)
The aspects are platonic concepts, including those of space and time, with the Furthest Ring existing as the default reality and canvas in which every other reality is contained, including all realities that can be created by Skaia, all the while remaining untouched by their space and time/laws of physics (and more stuff I can't fit in this).
They each qualify for 1-A on their own merits (to my understanding at least), but their connection to each other helps matters greatly

I'm also not sure MSPA Reader should be an entire narrative layer above every other metatextual character, all things considered. Aren't they currently scaled an entire R?R>F level above Alternate Calliope for doing something extremely similar? May have to look at that one, again.

But the general idea of the scale is sound.

I also disagreed with that on the cosmology thread but I decided to leave my issues with the scaling thread (mostly because in addition to just doing alt calliope's feat, they also talk in the same way Ult Dirk did before he made himself a body)