Double or Nothing - Narutoverse God Tiers Speed Revision (Part 1)

[HelloThere1089]

All these scans are doing is reminding me what a baddie Kaguya was.

 

[JohnHendrix212]

All these scans are doing is reminding me what a baddie Kaguya was.

No curves tho.

 

[DavidTPPM]

There actually is. She is trying to not get sealed again by the exact same jutsu giving by the same guy that sealed her, on top of that she's trying to collect their chakra first. She's definitely going to attack swiftly and finish things immediately

Is she "trying to not get sealed" in that specific scenario? Is there any threat to her? Has there been a threat to her yet?
She's literally dozens of meters away from Naruto who's going insane-diff against her casual blows. There's literally 0 threat to Kaguya in that scene and there hasn't been any threat so far.

Actually no she immediately took them seriously when she found out they had the seals. At first she attacked straight away and captured both, felt the seals and immediately threw them away, one would assume a character would immediately start attacking with caution and not restricting themselves after doing such.

That's really misleading. She caught them while she was still Madara mid-transformation so it's not like she consciously went straight to attacking. She was very clearly casual up until Naruto repeatedly tricked her.

Actually we don't see her actually hit Naruto. We see the fists and then we see Naruto blown away,

That's wrong. We straight up see 2 fists land a direct blow

Naruto isn't trying to block them, he's not trying to dodge them, he's not reacting to them in any way in general other than yk, grunting in pain.

for all we know she overpowered his fists first.

And they just magically disappeared after that and Naruto just decided to not even like, block the incoming attacks with his regular fists? That's a pretty big leap in logic.

It is also very suss that not once could she replicate this feat when attacking anymore.

She blitzed Narutos clones like 50x on screen wdym?

The entire fight in the ice dimension she could not once blitz Naruto and even had to resort to merging with the dimension when she couldn't catch him again.

Huh? First of all, she didn't "have to resort to merging" she was trying to keep Naruto alive and immobilized to absorb his chakra.
Second of all this is how she "could not once blitz Naruto"

seems like a whole lot of blitzing to me ngl
And thirdly, for the last time, a 2x difference is NOT ENOUGH TO SPEED BLITZ SOMEONE. Especially not when they were dozens of meters apart most of the time.

Not necessarily. She can overpower the fists and still not do too much damage, kinda how Sasuke can be blown away with his susanoo and not take too much damage

Because the susanoo is a massive aurashield that protects Sasukes entire body and acts like a bulletproof vest. Meaning instead of the fists damaging Sasukes body their force was absorbed by the susanoo (which is why it was destroyed).

But Kaguyas fists visibly land 2 direct hits right in Narutos face. There's no shield or anything like that reducing the impact here, it's a straightforward direct hit.

Yes kaguya was being more casual in respect to power, Naruto was clearly putting more effort.

Based on what? You keep saying Kaguya was only holding back power but you're yet to actually say why.
You're yet to give a single argument or anything even resembling an argument as to why she was holding back strength but not speed.

I never argued against that. I'm saying actively slowing yourself down against one of the 2 people that can lock you away for ever when you already have a fear of being locked up sounds like a very bad idea.

No not really? Naruto and Sasuke were still completely inconsequential to her even at that level.
And by that logic, powering down would also be a very bad idea yet you're saying she did that.

You can have whatever interpretation of the smirk you want, that's largely not relevant to the point I'm making

It is very relevant because it shows that Kaguya was not really giving it her all while Naruto was trying his very hardest.

1. Technically she meant to capture Naruto and not send him through a portal, she already separated them.

I really don't care about what she was technically intending to do after she grabs him, it's completely irrelevant. Naruto saw Kaguya stick her hand in a portal to grab Sasuke from behind and then saw her try to do it again. Even an average human could predict what she's going to do is grab Naruto from behind.

Also knowing that someone wants to open a portal doesn't tell you where the person is going to come out from. It took boruto with a jougan to do that.

Yeah but yk what would tell you that? The fact that you've already seen the opponent come out from behind of your friend and the fact that there are blatantly no portals in front of you lmao.

2. You can't just keep attributing everything to danger sense,

I'm not attributing everything to it I'm attributing most of it to the fact that TWO TIMES DIFFERENCE ISN'T ENOUGH TO BLITZ.
It's just that you keep ignoring both of these facts and I have to keep reminding you of them.

you still have to be able to react in time coz like you don't know where the danger is coming from in this case.

Doesn't Narutos danger sense track exactly where the danger is coming from? It's not MCU spider-sense that just tells him danger is coming, he specifically used it to track Ays precise stab and Obitos movements mid fight.

He couldn't sense momoshiki or kinshiki until they were right above his head in the chunin exams. Yet he he even has cosmic awareness

BASE Naruto couldn't use his 6 PATHS SAGE MODE sensory abilities? Well that changes everything!

Your scaling chains is wrong. There's nothing tying kaguya to the susanoo speed. She never blitzed it.

She just straight up slammed the susanoo without it even having the chance to block

She absorbed it coming from a distance away.

Suddenly distance matters to stop a blitz

But when it goes against your argument distance suddenly doesn't matter.

She can be equal in speed or even slower and would be able to do that. Sasuke kept up with fatigued kaguya in his susanoo fine for a while while Naruto yapped with obito.

All we've seen Sasuke do while Naruto yapped is a single punch on Kaguya which she reacts to. There was no keeping up, Kaguya reacted to him and blitzed him right away while fatigued.

Also Naruto can be a blitz tier above Sasuke in the battle, it doesn't matter. Clearly Naruto was greater in capabilities than Sasuke in that fight and it was well shown

Idc, but then you're not arguing against the 2x increase but in favor of upscaling Naruto even further to Kaguya levels.

 

[HelloThere1089]

No curves tho.

Her robes are deceptive. Trust.

 

[karo_senpaii]

Is she "trying to not get sealed" in that specific scenario? Is there any threat to her? Has there been a threat to her yet?
She's literally dozens of meters away from Naruto who's going insane-diff against her casual blows. There's literally 0 threat to Kaguya in that scene and there hasn't been any threat so far.

That's really misleading. She caught them while she was still Madara mid-transformation so it's not like she consciously went straight to attacking. She was very clearly casual up until Naruto repeatedly tricked her.

That's wrong. We straight up see 2 fists land a direct blow

Naruto isn't trying to block them, he's not trying to dodge them, he's not reacting to them in any way in general other than yk, grunting in pain.

And they just magically disappeared after that and Naruto just decided to not even like, block the incoming attacks with his regular fists? That's a pretty big leap in logic.

She blitzed Narutos clones like 50x on screen wdym?

Huh? First of all, she didn't "have to resort to merging" she was trying to keep Naruto alive and immobilized to absorb his chakra.
Second of all this is how she "could not once blitz Naruto"

seems like a whole lot of blitzing to me ngl
And thirdly, for the last time, a 2x difference is NOT ENOUGH TO SPEED BLITZ SOMEONE. Especially not when they were dozens of meters apart most of the time.

Because the susanoo is a massive aurashield that protects Sasukes entire body and acts like a bulletproof vest. Meaning instead of the fists damaging Sasukes body their force was absorbed by the susanoo (which is why it was destroyed).

But Kaguyas fists visibly land 2 direct hits right in Narutos face. There's no shield or anything like that reducing the impact here, it's a straightforward direct hit.

Based on what? You keep saying Kaguya was only holding back power but you're yet to actually say why.
You're yet to give a single argument or anything even resembling an argument as to why she was holding back strength but not speed.

No not really? Naruto and Sasuke were still completely inconsequential to her even at that level.
And by that logic, powering down would also be a very bad idea yet you're saying she did that.

It is very relevant because it shows that Kaguya was not really giving it her all while Naruto was trying his very hardest.

I really don't care about what she was technically intending to do after she grabs him, it's completely irrelevant. Naruto saw Kaguya stick her hand in a portal to grab Sasuke from behind and then saw her try to do it again. Even an average human could predict what she's going to do is grab Naruto from behind.

Yeah but yk what would tell you that? The fact that you've already seen the opponent come out from behind of your friend and the fact that there are blatantly no portals in front of you lmao.

I'm not attributing everything to it I'm attributing most of it to the fact that TWO TIMES DIFFERENCE ISN'T ENOUGH TO BLITZ.
It's just that you keep ignoring both of these facts and I have to keep reminding you of them.

Doesn't Narutos danger sense track exactly where the danger is coming from? It's not MCU spider-sense that just tells him danger is coming, he specifically used it to track Ays precise stab and Obitos movements mid fight.

BASE Naruto couldn't use his 6 PATHS SAGE MODE sensory abilities? Well that changes everything!

She just straight up slammed the susanoo without it even having the chance to block


Suddenly distance matters to stop a blitz

But when it goes against your argument distance suddenly doesn't matter.

All we've seen Sasuke do while Naruto yapped is a single punch on Kaguya which she reacts to. There was no keeping up, Kaguya reacted to him and blitzed him right away while fatigued.

Idc, but then you're not arguing against the 2x increase but in favor of upscaling Naruto even further to Kaguya levels.

I yield bro. I can't keep going

 

[DavidTPPM]

I yield bro. I can't keep going

 

[Testarossa002]

In order to end this back n forth, I've modified Naruto's section a bit
Now, let's all drop the matter

 

[Ghostimuscrime]

In order to end this back n forth, I've modified Naruto's section a bit
Now, let's all drop the matter

Would this not make Bijuu Susano Sasuke on that same level for being able to blitz his avatars? (not gonna argue this just a question)

 

[JohnHendrix212]

Also means Sasuke with Chidori is also in that ballpark of speed, as he tagged Naruto.

 

[Testarossa002]

Would this not make Bijuu Susano Sasuke on that same level for being able to blitz his avatars? (not gonna argue this just a question)

It would
Thanks for pointing this out

 

[Testarossa002]

Also means Sasuke with Chidori is also in that ballpark of speed, as he tagged Naruto.

That, I would heavily disagree with
He did that with Ameno and it still wasn't a blitz
As Naruto managed to raise his arm in an attempt to block it even with the angle against him
Not to mention, the circular scaling it'll cause (Kaguya > Chidori > Naruto's Reactions > Kaguya)

 

[JohnHendrix212]

He did that with Ameno and it still wasn't a blitz

Sasuke still had to swing his arm.

As Naruto managed to raise his arm in an attempt to block it even with the angle against him

Isn't this practically the same situation as Naruto reacting to Kaguya's portal grab, but arguably more impressive because Naruto's danger senses couldn't fully allow him to avoid getting punted? The same position and all, since Kaguya's attempt was also at Naruto's back.

Not to mention, the circular scaling it'll cause (Kaguya > Chidori > Naruto's Reactions > Kaguya)

Sasuke's Chidori was weighed down by Kaguya's gravity dimension, so It's not that Kaguya was significantly faster than Chidori at its full speed. Plus I just don't think Kaguya was using her full speed/serious when Naruto barely dodged her attempt, as BZ was practically singsonging while praising Naruto's reflexes..

To me, it's more like (Kaguya > Chidori >~ Naruto's Reactions >~ casual Kaguya)

 

[Testarossa002]

Man, if it's not a serious Kaguya, there's no need to scale naruto to her at all

Sasuke's Chidori was weighed down by Kaguya's gravity dimension

That should be helping him hit her faster not slower
it's not as if Kaguya was above him in that sequence

so It's not that Kaguya was significantly faster than Chidori at its full speed

That's not the only feat going against Chidori

Even while not fully revived, she intercepted a blitz attempt from Sasuke, who was using both Body Flicker and Chidori simultaneously

Madara:

Capable of reacting to both Naruto and Sasuke at the same time (Sasuke was with chidori)

Isn't this practically the same situation as Naruto reacting to Kaguya's portal grab, but arguably more impressive because Naruto's danger senses couldn't fully allow him to avoid getting punted? The same position and all, since Kaguya's attempt was also at Naruto's back.

It's not
Naruto was occupied with the Katon
Which made any complex evasions difficult
He was free against Kaguya

 

[JohnHendrix212]

Man, if it's not a serious Kaguya, there's no need to scale naruto to her at all

I'd prefer this to keep things way more consistent ngl. Besides, a single feat of barely dodging a casual Kaguya versus a sea of getting overwhelmed and blitzed isn't really that arguable (Sorry Karo).

That's not the only feat going against Chidori

forgot about that one.

Naruto was occupied with the Katon

Fair. I'm fairly sure the Katon had been dealt with by the time he turned, but eh...

I will not press further so the thread can continue.

 

[JohnHendrix212]

Also, isn't your justification for Naruto's reactions redundant? You already used it for his overall speed.

 

[Tony_di_bugalu]

Hagoromo says that Madara is approaching him and his mother, this kinda implies he is talking about Hagoromo at his peak which is the ten-tails vessel

^

 

[Dark_Soul20189]

Honestly, this entire scaling chain (Looking at the chain and speed itself) just feels extremely off, and don't match at all what I remember from the anime and manga...

The speed feels heavily inflated....

 

[Kaydee1648]

Honestly, this entire scaling chain (Looking at the chain and speed itself) just feels extremely off, and don't match at all what I remember from the anime and manga...

The speed feels heavily inflated....

Honey, “It doesn’t match what I remember” isn’t an argument, neither is it an attempt at a refutation. Either come up with a proper rebuttal or don’t clad the thread based on what you feel

 

[Dark_Soul20189]

Honey, “It doesn’t match what I remember” isn’t an argument, neither is it an attempt at a refutation. Either come up with a proper rebuttal or don’t clad the thread based on what you feel

Nor did I claim it to be a refutation; I simply mentioned it doesn't fit with the narrative, nor inverse scaling from my knowledge of the verse, so I think it's enough to bring it up.

Is it a valid debunk to the OP? No, but it's worth bringing up.

 

[Damage3245]

Nor did I claim it to be a refutation; I simply mentioned it doesn't fit with the narrative, nor inverse scaling from my knowledge of the verse, so I think it's enough to bring it up.

Is it a valid debunk to the OP? No, but it's worth bringing up.

If you're going to bring up objections to the OP based on in-verse scaling or narrative flaws, then you need to be specific, with examples.

 

[Kaydee1648]

I simply mentioned it doesn't fit with the narrative

You didn’t mention this in your original post, so now that you are, prove why it doesn’t fit with the narrative.

nor inverse scaling from my knowledge of the verse,

Okay cool, state your reasons based on your “knowledge”

 

[DavidTPPM]

Honey, “It doesn’t match what I remember” isn’t an argument,

How bro felt saying this

 

[HelloThere1089]

How bro felt saying this

As he should . Slay, KDX.

 

[Shadowbokunohero]

Tess bribed me with food so im obligated to say i agree with this thread.

 

[Ghostimuscrime]

Honestly, this entire scaling chain (Looking at the chain and speed itself) just feels extremely off, and don't match at all what I remember from the anime and manga...

The speed feels heavily inflated....

Dude’s arguing with “Muh feelings”
You have nothing of substance to say and are arguing for the sake of arguing

You’re free to ask questions about the scaling chain but outright accusing it of being inflated when you can’t even produce a genuine counter is distasteful and clutters up the thread quit it

 

[MeiouHades]

While Kaguya was like

 

[Testarossa002]

Yah
Let's leave Dark alone until he comes back with something better
Since Damage's thread directly affects this one, it would be on hold until that's concluded
We don't need to lock it. Fact-based discussions about scaling can still continue (I'm hoping the kaguya stuff is concluded)
Just don't fill this thread with unnecessary messages before then
With how "hot" that thread is, I doubt we'll wait long before a conclusion is reached

Thank you all

 

[Damage3245]

With how "hot" that thread is, I doubt we'll wait long before a conclusion is reached

I promise to try and get through it as quickly as I can, just not able to respond to everyone's posts till later tonight.

 

[Testarossa002]

^

I honestly thought someone responded to you.
Apologies

If you peeked thr initial sandbox, I was scaling Madara to JJ Hags.
Apparently, the currently accepted interpretation of those statements was that it was made in reference to Ghost Hags
While I ultimately disagree with that, it'll take a bit more from me to overhaul the AP sections of the affected individuals — something I don't have the capacity for atm.
In addition, the speed ratings verse wide won't get affected whether I scale madara that way or not. So, it's like a high effort - low reward thing for me
So, I just scaled Kaguya to JJ Hags as that's way more easier with a lot more evidence supporting it
Tl;dr
I'm with you, but, for the sake of progressing with this thread, not for you

 

[JohnHendrix212]

Bumpity Bump

 

[Testarossa002]

You don't need to bump it
The thread is mostly paused for now

Yah
Let's leave Dark alone until he comes back with something better
Since Damage's thread directly affects this one, it would be on hold until that's concluded
We don't need to lock it. Fact-based discussions about scaling can still continue (I'm hoping the kaguya stuff is concluded)
Just don't fill this thread with unnecessary messages before then
With how "hot" that thread is, I doubt we'll wait long before a conclusion is reached

Thank you all

 

[JohnHendrix212]

You don't need to bump it
The thread is mostly paused for now

I completely forgot about Damage's thread.

My bad.

 

[Testarossa002]

Since Damage's thread is all but accepted, we can continue here

---

Since the 8th gate multiplier isn't applicable anymore, this is the new scaling

Scaling Note:

• The Sub-Relativistic characters scale to Kakashi’s feat (0.028 c)
  • Base Naruto
• The lowest FTL characters like Eight Gates Guy upscale heavily from Sasuke’s feat (1 c)
  • Pre Shinju Absorbtion Madara
  • Sasuke
  • Ghost and Alive Hagoromo
  • Juubi
  • Hamura
• The highest FTL Characters like SOSP Hagoromo scale 2x the FTL characters (2 c)
• The lowest FTL+ characters like Six Paths Naruto downscale from the low-mid FTL+ characters (10 c)
  • Post Shinju Absorption Madara
  • Sasuke with Chidori, its variants and other speed boosts
• The middle FTL+ characters like Kaguya scale 1000x the Sub-Relativistic characters (28 c)
  • DMS Kakashi with Raikiri

I'll get to updating the sandbox, but the indented lists show the characters scaling to the primary scaling routes
I do have something planned for 8th gate as a multiplier but since it affects like 5 characters with no verse-wide (with regards to the god tiers) implications, I'll make a separate thread for it at a TBD date.

Spoiler: Read II

Potential Counterarguments for Character scaling
C: Why isn't Naruto scaling fully to Kaguya?
A: David and I have already explained why that is simply not possible. Naruto, with his reactions and Empowerment, would still scale fully, though.
C: What's with the Sasuke downplay?
A: I've had time to look at his performance during the fights against Madara, Kaguya, and Naruto, and I don't believe he has any noteworthy feats to KSPSM Naruto and 2 Eye Madara speed-wise. His feats against them are usually with the Chidori and other speed boosts, which is why he's scaling with those instead
C: You must hate those with special eyes. Why is JJ Hags 5x slower than Naruto and Sasuke?
A: The interesting thing about Hags statement about Madara approaching his level and how we scale it on-site is that it goes both ways. 1 Eye Madara has no scaling to peak Hags. Conversely, JJ Hags has no scaling to 2E Madara. He could be faster, but the current scaling implication has no proof for that. Believe me, I'd love to scale them to each other off that one Databook statement but it is what it is. I'm open to more supporting stuff though
C: Base Naruto should be downscaling from Sasuke
A: The one feat that is being used to scale them is wonky for a lot of reasons. Chief among them being:

• It's a one-off feat. Naruto has zero feats on that level apart from this one
• The feat itself should fall under PIS. Sasuke, with his superior reactions, should have counterattacked like he did against A4 but instead, rushed to clash with Naruto.
• Unlike his later forms, the speed gap between Base and Base SPSM is massive. Base SPSM is considered to be leagues above KCM. KCM is also a significant boost from his base. It wasn't until boruto that the line between Base and KSPSM become blurred. As at Naruto (series), it is a massive jump in speed.

Like I mentioned early on in the thread, while my threads are mostly upgrades, they are also made with the intention to rectify perceived scaling errors both from others and myself. So yeah, it would result in downgrades for some characters


Further counter/supporting arguments to the proposed scaling are welcome

 

[JohnHendrix212]

I know this is mostly because we don't have a solid value, but Rinnegan Sasuke having only an upscale to his FAR weaker self from a few hundred chapters back is.... something.

 

[Ghostimuscrime]

Further counter/supporting arguments to the proposed scaling are welcome

A few notes from my end

• Base Naruto downscales from SPSM naruto so he would sit at rel+
• SPSM Naruto bullied the shit out of 1E Juubidara pre absorption so he's 1c at least
• Rinnegan Sasuke needs to be equal to K-SPSM naruto that's law
• JJ hags should backscale from 2E Juubidara due to the statements saying Madara attains the true power of six paths (I can write a quick little justification for JJ Hags = 2E Juubidara if need be)
• KSPSM naruto, rinnegan sasuke and 1E Post Absorption Madara being baseline FTL+ is fine but you should note that naruto should get the full (not downscaled) rating for his reactions and enraged state and downscaled for combat
• similarly Sasuke in bijuu susano form would also get that 28c line of scaling
• rest are fine

 

[JohnHendrix212]

I also support Rinnegan Sasuke scaling to KSPSM Naruto and Post-Shinju 1 Rinnegan Madara. Sasuke even without using Chidori doesn't really seem to be out of his depth during those fights. And he did react to JJ Madara's blitz attempt and Lightning Dispatch. As well as generally being able to fight KSPSM Naruto (although most if it was in his PS).

Also, does the Chidori's speed boost apply to all Chidori variants? Wasn't the speed boost only apply for when the user has to run at a distance and attaining a speed that causes tunnel vision, and only for thrusting? So Sasuke smacking Naruto with a Chidori is a legitimate arm-swing/combat speed since the Chidori's speed boost doesn't really work that way.

Correct me If I'm wrong though.

 

[Testarossa002]

Base Naruto downscales from SPSM naruto so he would sit at rel+

Like I said, I don't think that one-off feat warrants a downscale considering other things. Unless you have a different reason for downscaling

SPSM Naruto bullied the shit out of 1E Juubidara pre absorption so he's 1c at least

Oh yeah, he's definitely scaling. Must have missed that

Rinnegan Sasuke needs to be equal to K-SPSM naruto that's law

He is. All of his capabilities don't need to.
He mostly keeps up (and even outspeeds) Naruto while using speed boosts. He doesn't need to have a flat rating equal to Naruto. Even Naruto doesn't have an equal rating to Naruto (regular vs reactions)
Even moreso when the speed boosts are easy to activate and combat applicable. Fought Kaguya, Madara and Naruto with these boosts

(I can write a quick little justification for JJ Hags = 2E Juubidara if need be)

It's needed, yeah

• KSPSM naruto, rinnegan sasuke and 1E Post Absorption Madara being baseline FTL+ is fine but you should note that naruto should get the full (not downscaled) rating for his reactions and enraged state and downscaled for combat
• similarly Sasuke in bijuu susano form would also get that 28c line of scaling
• rest are fine

Sure

I know this is mostly because we don't have a solid value, but Rinnegan Sasuke having only an upscale to his FAR weaker self from a few hundred chapters back is.... something.

My 8th gate stuff might change that but the implications are minimal

 

[Ghostimuscrime]

Spoiler: madara = hagoromo

At last, the time has come—! By reclaiming both Rinnegan, Madara unleashes the true power of the Six Paths. The piercing brilliance released from both eyes is truly…

here sage of six paths refers to feats performed by hagoromo when he was a juubi jinchuriki
all the lore surrounding SO6P are just that hag's JJ form achievements, they include the creation of juts, bijuu, ninshu, creed etc (373, 446, 467, 510)



edit : the priesthood shit probably started when we was preaching ninshuu which is confirmed to have happened after jinchurikification in the last
so madara attaining the true power of the six paths would be him reaching Hagoromos sO6p power level

 

[JohnHendrix212]

Is this an argument for Madara's scaling to JJ Hagoromo?

I thought you disagreed with that?

 

[Ghostimuscrime]

Yeah, because no one bothered to reason why he is here at the time, I didn't wanna feel like we were cherry picking a specific form for the sake of benefits without any solid base and now I am providing that basis with explicit databook statements and lore