Gazel Dwargo (Tensura) VS Garfield Tinsel (Re:ZERO)

[Dark_Soul20189]

After discussing with REDACTED, for a Tensura VS Re:Zero matchup, we came to conclude this would be a fun matchup. It's also an attempt to make up for my last one (I do hope it's not gonna be another skill or hax stomp...)

Gazel Dwargo (First key)

VS

Garfield Tinsel (last key)

SBA
Speed equalized
Gazel is limited to his first key


Noteworthy Advantages (I can think of)

Gazel
*Experience
*better Hax and Techniques
*I think Gazel has better senses/perception (whatever the word is)

Garfield
*Much more skilled
*Resist Earth magic (the only magic Gazel uses)
*Lifting strength
*More hax
*Intuition


Votes
Garfield: - @SatellaTheWoE,
Gazel: -
Both get interpreted and forced back to their duties (inconclusive): -

As normal, I will improve the post as the thread continues.

 

[Lycoris4812]

Gazel uses Magic and its gg. But also like, he has a bunch of passives, none of which Garfiel resists. And he can summon a spiritual lifeform.

Also, maybe wait till after you revise Gazel's profile?

 

[Tempestdragon6]

oh buddy another one

 

[Dark_Soul20189]

Gazel uses Magic and its gg

Gazel's only use of magic is his summoning and use of Elemental magic when fused, something that is restricted.

he has a bunch of passives

Funnily enough, We currently don't have them as "passives..." Nor do we actually have a proper skill set for Heroic aura...

And he can summon a spiritual lifeform.

Already covered this.

Also, maybe wait till after you revise Gazel's profile?

Nah.


(Bump)

 

[Ebihara]

Following

 

[Dark_Soul20189]

Following

Waiting for a Re: Zero scaler to lay out arguments and their take on it, before I start the debate on Gazel's side.

 

[Lycoris4812]

Funnily enough, We currently don't have them as "passives..."

Meh, still aura that surrounds him.

Nor do we actually have a proper skill set for Heroic aura...

Wdym.

 

[Dark_Soul20189]

Wdym.

I will explain on Discord tomorrow.

 

[Trxyway]

I feel like the biggest win condition here is landing a Battlewill strike early, which would negate Garfs regen obviously and put him down. Gazels Magic Sense also gives him a strong perception edge which would allowing him to read disturbances in the environment and anticipate Garfs actions, but the issue is that Garfiel’s entire combat style is built around instincts, intuition & fighting without thinking if it makes sense, which directly undercuts mind reading and predictive hax. Garf can adapt to analytical fighters like Elsa Granhiert who could predict any attack she had seen before which matters against Gazel because Gazel relies on foresight and prediction n i think he can turn that advantage into openings. He has fought Kurgan (who is a master swordsman with eight arms, much more skilled than him btw) and kept up despite being outnumbered in limbs which i think demonstrates his ability to handle opponents with unconventional combat traits. Garf gets stronger the longer the battle goes on, so i feel like Gazel wins if he cuts garf once, but will he be able to?

 

[Dark_Soul20189]

Snip

Just curious, how does his intuition work?

 

[Pluto321]

I think Gazel wins, since his opponent doesn't have resistance to cm1 and while his has resistance to magic, it's a normal magic not magic which is cm1, law manipulation, other things, so for gazel for fra

 

[Trxyway]

Just curious, how does his intuition work?

I'd say it works through a combination of instinctive act., esp and analytical prediction, which basically allows him to react faster than his mind can think, anticipate his opponents next moves by reading the form of mana, sense danger and presences and make split second do or die decisions without consciously planning his attacks

 

[SatellaTheWoE]

I think Gazel wins, since his opponent doesn't have resistance to cm1 and while his has resistance to magic, it's a normal magic not magic which is cm1, law manipulation, other things, so for gazel for fra

Apparently the cm1 is the nature of magic so it doesn't actually give any advantage (is what I have been told from a supporter)

And for what it's worth ReZeros magic is also law manipulation

I also think Garfiel outskills here.

Battlewill would be able to negate his healing but tbf Garfiel can fight despite being heavily injured and has shown the ability to do so in a lot of his fights. Gazel would still have an uphill battle against him, since Kurgan lost even after heavily damaging Garfiel but yes it did be way more likely for him to win in that scenario

Cuz of this I am leaning towards Garfiel rn

 

[AlexSamDen]

Personally, I think you should first finish your CRT for Gazel, as if what @Trxyway said is true, then formhide and haze can give him a massive advantage in addition to his already advantageous mind hax

 

[Dark_Soul20189]

Personally, I think you should first finish your CRT for Gazel, as if what @Trxyway said is true, then formhide and haze can give him a massive advantage in addition to his already advantageous mind hax

"massive advantage"? You mean his main wincon?

 

[SatellaTheWoE]

Personally, I think you should first finish your CRT for Gazel, as if what @Trxyway said is true, then formhide and haze can give him a massive advantage in addition to his already advantageous mind hax

Formhide and Haze isnt effective as he is superior to Elsa who can hit the vitals of her opponents even when all of her senses have been cut off and her mind was floating in a void.

Essentially, ReZero characters have insane intuition which is combat applicable

 

[Dark_Soul20189]

Formhide and Haze isnt effective as he is superior to Elsa who can hit the vitals of her opponents even when all of her senses have been cut off and her mind was floating in a void.

Yeah, that's why I asked about how their intuition worked, since if it was in any way connected to magic or the 5 senses, it would be useless against Haze.

Though it will still be hard to dodge based on intuition alone. Since even such a being such as "Great Sage" was having a hard time detecting him.

 

[AlexSamDen]

Apparently the cm1 is the nature of magic so it doesn't actually give any advantage (is what I have been told from a supporter)

It is the nature of magic, however some advantage is present, as normal resistances will be hardly working against it. This is because, for example, you can't extinguish magic fire with normal water, due to the fact that this is not actually fire, but the idea of "burning" being projected into reality and taking the form of fire under the influence of Laws of The World, effectively making it a conceptual fire and to stop the fire you need to counter the idea that it originates from

 

[Dark_Soul20189]

It is the nature of magic, however some advantage is present, as normal resistances will be hardly working against it. This is because, for example, you can't extinguish magic fire with normal water, due to the fact that this is not actually fire, but the idea of "burning" being projected into reality and taking the form of fire under the influence of Laws of The World, effectively making it a conceptual fire and to stop the fire you need to counter the idea that it originates from

Yeah, basically it makes it harder to counter, but naturally it doesn't matter much for this matchup, since Gazel doesn't directly use magic...

 

[SatellaTheWoE]

Yeah, that's why I asked about how their intuition worked, since if it was in any way connected to magic or the 5 senses, it would be useless against Haze.

It's not connected to either, its just their gut feeling

Though it will still be hard to dodge based on intuition alone. Since even such a being such as "Great Sage" was having a hard time detecting him.

I doubt this, Great sage uses information and processes it to do stuff whereas intuition doesn't rely on anything

It is the nature of magic, however some advantage is present, as normal resistances will be hardly working against it. This is because, for example, you can't extinguish magic fire with normal water, due to the fact that this is not actually fire, but the idea of "burning" being projected into reality and taking the form of fire under the influence of Laws of The World, effectively making it a conceptual fire and to stop the fire you need to counter the idea that it originates from

In ReZero

Magic is a means of reflecting one's will in reality, defying the laws of nature through chanting. It is an advanced and subtle act of barbarism equivalent to forcibly rewriting a script and changing the ending.

In other words, the chanting of a magic spell is nothing more than a polite greeting saying; "I am going to be destroying the world."

All the magics allowed in the world are essentially the ones which Od Laguna (the creator of the verse) has allowed

 

[Dark_Soul20189]

It's not connected to either, its just their gut feeling

Good.

I doubt this, Great sage uses information and processes it to do stuff whereas intuition doesn't rely on anything

I don't think it will be a guaranteed dodge, though.

In ReZero

Pretty good.



Meanwhile In Tensura

• Magic, Law Manipulation, Reality Warping, Subjective Reality and Conceptual Manipulation (Type 1; Magic manipulates the Laws of the World)

Even more broken

Alright, now let's get back into it. How does Garfiel deal with Gazel, Thought reading? (Dictator)

 

[AlexSamDen]

Quick reminder about Gazel's Analytical prediction:

• Heroic Presence: By imbuing his sword with heroic presence, he can sense his opponents' future moves. He can also use heroic presence to intimidate his opponents, immobilizing them.

 

[SatellaTheWoE]

Good.


I don't think it will be a guaranteed dodge, though.

it likely will considering how their accuracy does not drop at all, like lmfao Elsa managed to pinpoint the vitals

Meanwhile In Tensura

Even more broken

didnt you say it was just the nature and thus did not really apply to it? Either way, Garfiel is unaffected from earth based magic which is literally just the ground in the same way tensura's is. He will just use his own to counter it even if he couldnt control it (although tbh he wouldnt be hurt by it anyway)

Alright, now let's get back into it. How does Garfiel deal with Gazel, Thought reading? (Dictator)

he doesnt have to, he fights instinctively meaning there is no gap between thought and action, they are simultaneous which means even if you do read his thoughts it wouldnt help since he will already have taken action on those thoughts. This completely counters Gazel's dictator

Quick reminder about Gazel's Analytical prediction:

that doesnt look to be analytical prediction but rather precognition. How does it work?


Now more importantly, how is he going to handle Garfiels constant barrage of attacks which will only get stronger and faster as the fight goes on? Any martial arts he starts using will automatically be copied, while all attacks would be blocked or reflected back at Gazel

 

[Dark_Soul20189]

it likely will considering how their accuracy does not drop at all, like lmfao Elsa managed to pinpoint the vitals

Yeah, my CRT just passed, so it will have better descriptions for how it works now.

didnt you say it was just the nature and thus did not really apply to it?

I did, and it holds true.

Either way, Garfiel is unaffected from earth based magic which is literally just the ground in the same way tensura's is. He will just use his own to counter it even if he couldnt control it (although tbh he wouldnt be hurt by it anyway)

As I said, Gazel doesn't use it himself; it's his summon that does.

he doesnt have to, he fights instinctively meaning there is no gap between thought and action, they are simultaneous which means even if you do read his thoughts it wouldnt help since he will already have taken action on those thoughts. This completely counters Gazel's dictator

Good to know, but he will still have a small window to react. SInce the moment he starts to "act", is the moment Gazel will know. (English , right?)

 

[AlexSamDen]

it likely will considering how their accuracy does not drop at all, like lmfao Elsa managed to pinpoint the vitals

It's not about them hitting some part of Gazel, it's Gazel making a strike he can't physically Dodge

ther way, Garfiel is unaffected from earth based magic which is literally just the ground in the same way tensura's is.

I think we've just discussed it? For Tensura it's not the ground, but the idea of "occupying space" (primarily)

that doesnt look to be analytical prediction but rather precognition. How does it work?

Honestly, no idea, I wasn't there when this was added

 

[Lycoris4812]

that doesnt look to be analytical prediction but rather precognition.

Analytical prediction is precognition.

 

[SatellaTheWoE]

Yeah, my CRT just passed, so it will have better descriptions for how it works now.

Its a form of invisibility no?

I did, and it holds true.

As I said, Gazel doesn't use it himself; it's his summon that does.

which means its essentially not a factor in this matchup, gotcha

Good to know, but he will still have a small window to react. SInce the moment he starts to "act", is the moment Gazel will know. (English , right?)

there isnt a small window to react, Garfiel level characters will exploit even the smallest gaps. Gazel will only know about the attack after the action has started to take place, they start at equal speeds but garfiels going to get faster and faster meaning he is going to overwhelm him

It's not about them hitting some part of Gazel, it's Gazel making a strike he can't physically Dodge

its an ability that allows him to go invisible, so hard disagree. I am talking about the accuracy of their intuition here btw

Actually this reminded me of something, in this specific key Garfiel has already fought Olbart and is superior to him. Olbart is one of the people in ReZero who CAN dodge physically impossible to dodge attacks.

I think we've just discussed it? For Tensura it's not the ground, but the idea of "occupying space" (primarily)

accoridng to OP this isnt gonna work

Honestly, no idea, I wasn't there when this was added

Analytical prediction is precognition.

its a form of precognition. Heroic Prescence seems to be a divination type precog instead of an analytical one, meaning the indexing is wrong. If it isnt then Garfiel will easily counter it because literally everybody and their mothers have good analytical precognition. Even the most untrained version of Emilia could dodge perception blitzing danmaku via Analytical precognition

 

[AlexSamDen]

there isnt a small window to react, Garfiel level characters will exploit even the smallest gaps. Gazel will only know about the attack after the action has started to take place, they start at equal speeds but garfiels going to get faster and faster meaning he is going to overwhelm him

Perception amp goes brrr

its an ability that allows him to go invisible, so hard disagree. I am talking about the accuracy of their intuition here btw

I'm also talking about intuition, just the fact that it might be not as advantageous as it seems

Actually this reminded me of something, in this specific key Garfiel has already fought Olbart and is superior to him. Olbart is one of the people in ReZero who CAN dodge physically impossible to dodge attacks.

Well, to be fair, the wiki admins hate Re: Zero for this part, I still remember that Q&A where people were discussing, how tf do they scale dodging rain based on skill. The conclusion was: f*ck re:zero

accoridng to OP this isnt gonna work

I'm talking about general mechanics to clear misunderstandings

 

[AlexSamDen]

As I said, Gazel doesn't use it himself; it's his summon

Actually, isn't Battlewill also magic? It's just using magicules in a very specific way, but in the end, it holds the same principles

 

[Dark_Soul20189]

Its a form of invisibility no?

no? Invisibility only hides it from the naked eye. Haze hides it from all senses, it also hides one's spirit and aura. and stops one from interacting with magicules itself, leaving any sensing/detective ability useless.

which means its essentially not a factor in this matchup, gotcha

Yep

there isnt a small window to react, Garfiel level characters will exploit even the smallest gaps. Gazel will only know about the attack after the action has started to take place, they start at equal speeds but garfiels going to get faster and faster meaning he is going to overwhelm him

Here, I am not the best at debating, since my knowledge on "skill" is not well off, but I can say that Gazel will exploit the "delay" as much as possible

Honestly, I am unsure if AD, will be much of a factor, for the reason of, the longer the fight lasts, the more likely GAzel will evolve, not by "Becoming stronger", but gaining skills.

Actually, isn't Battlewill also magic? It's just using magicules in a very specific way, but in the end, it holds the same principles

Not exactly, but it is "akin" to it, but we have not accepted it as such on the wiki yet.

 

[SatellaTheWoE]

Perception amp goes brrr

Gazel doesnt have it, Garfiel does. If anything this is a disadvantage for him

I'm also talking about intuition, just the fact that it might be not as advantageous as it seems

you did have to prove why though, matter of fact is that it has even better feats that arent on the profile yet

Well, to be fair, the wiki admins hate Re: Zero for this part, I still remember that Q&A where people were discussing, how tf do they scale dodging rain based on skill. The conclusion was: f*ck re:zero

Nah, most vibe with it. Only a certain part of society hates on ReZero for having difficult to index skill slop

I'm talking about general mechanics to clear misunderstandings

Thank you

no? Invisibility only hides it from the naked eye. Haze hides it from all senses, it also hides one's spirit and aura. and stops one from interacting with magicules itself, leaving any sensing/detective ability useless.

invisibility from everything yeah, btw does it hide the general intent of the user? I dont see intent and that is one thing that is detectable by re zero characters so this might even be sensed by garfiel anyway

Here, I am not the best at debating, since my knowledge on "skill" is not well off, but I can say that Gazel will exploit the "delay" as much as possible

Garfiel wont let him and there doesnt seem to be anything that contradicts that point

Honestly, I am unsure if AD, will be much of a factor, for the reason of, the longer the fight lasts, the more likely GAzel will evolve, not by "Becoming stronger", but gaining skills.

I think thats generally useless since tensura characters, while they do gain skills, dont do it as fast as Rimuru and his companions do. He doesnt have that buff anyway and so i doubt he would gain anything at all even if the fight dragged on for more than 10 minutes (which tbf is unlikely since Garfiel constantly goes in for the kill)


Anyways, so far I think Garfiel has an edge on so i will be voting for him

 

[Lycoris4812]

I think thats generally useless since tensura characters, while they do gain skills, dont do it as fast as Rimuru and his companions do. He doesnt have that buff anyway and so i doubt he would gain anything at all even if the fight dragged on for more than 10 minutes (which tbf is unlikely since Garfiel constantly goes in for the kill)

It's not really a buff, more of a difference in willpower. We see other people besides Rimuru gain skills out of nowhere, like Shogo, who gained a unique skill due to his immense desire to survive. Resist skills can also be gained by just constantly being affected by something. Benimaru gained Resist poison after trying Shion's cooking a bunch of times etc. Gazel is a unique skill holder, which makes him at least equal to Shogo in terms of willpower, since Shogo was also a unique skill holder before he gained his other unique skill.

 

[AlexSamDen]

You did have to prove why though, matter of fact is that it has even better feats that arent on the profile yet

Because this is basically a reaction amp? And Gazel has advanced invis

invisibility from everything yeah, btw does it hide the general intent of the user? I dont see intent and that is one thing that is detectable by re zero characters so this might even be sensed by garfiel anyway

The spirit is hidden, meaning yes

Anyways, so far I think Garfiel has an edge on so i will be voting for him

We still didn't lay out Gazel's main wincon

• Fear Manipulation, Confusion Inducement, and Sleep Manipulation (On a scale of 210 with Heroic Aura)

• Aura, Empathic Manipulation, and Paralysis Inducement (Through actively suppressing the enemy with Aura, ignoring resistance to paralysis)

 

[Dark_Soul20189]

invisibility from everything yeah, btw does it hide the general intent of the user?

AH, my bad. I used Tensura terms again, but yes, it also hides intent, since that is included in "aura/spirit" in Tensura.

Garfiel wont let him and there doesnt seem to be anything that contradicts that point

I agree with that, if it were just a prolonged sword fight, Gazel would lose, luckily, Gazel has some tricks to play with.

I think thats generally useless since tensura characters, while they do gain skills, dont do it as fast as Rimuru and his companions do. He doesnt have that buff anyway and so i doubt he would gain anything at all even if the fight dragged on for more than 10 minutes (which tbf is unlikely since Garfiel constantly goes in for the kill)

Thats actually wrong, the condition is not necessarily time, but rather how "bad" his situation is without dying, as well as how strong Gazel's emotions get, so if he gets his ass beat for 10 minutes, he would without a doubt evolve, in a way that would be helpful to him, but to what degree is hard to say.

Anyways, so far I think Garfiel has an edge on so i will be voting for him

Alright.

 

[Trxyway]

We still didn't lay out Gazel's main wincon

Is this not literally a stomp then? As in he stands infront of garfiel and garf just goes to sleep, since he has no resistance to sleep manip, or how does heroic Aura work?

 

[Dark_Soul20189]

Is this not literally a stomp then? As in he stands infront of garfiel and garf just goes to sleep, since he has no resistance to sleep manip, or how does heroic Aura work?

Heroic aura currently does not exist on the profile; what we have is "corrosion", a much weaker version of it. (So yeah, that is not relevant for the debate)

• Fear Manipulation & Confusion Inducement & Sleep Manipulation (Coercion can cause targets to run away, induce confusion, faint and soil themselves. Even basic users can use this on a scale of 210 people)

 

[AlexSamDen]

Heroic aura currently does not exist on the profile; what we have is "corrosion", a much weaker version of it. (So yeah, that is not relevant for the debate)

It's literally called heroic aura on profile. It comes from Rimuru comparing the 2

 

[Dark_Soul20189]

It's literally called heroic aura on profile. It comes from Rimuru comparing the 2

Yes, it is called "heroic aura", but that is simply wrong. If it were Heroic aura, its effect would be far greater. and not just some "copy-paste" description, with no scans.

 

[AlexSamDen]

Yes, it is called "heroic aura", but that is simply wrong. If it were Heroic aura, its effect would be far greater. and not just some "copy-paste" description, with no scans.

Still works just fine here

 

[Dark_Soul20189]

Still works just fine here

"it works fine", but it's not accurate. For example, Coercion does not instantly knock people out; it puts pressure on them, challenging their willpower. The only cases of knocking them out would be if they were much weaker.