Ben 10 Upgrade | Part 2

[FinePoint]

It's is as she see beings through an object

Alright. It is probably fine then.

 

[Ultimate-Rex1]

Alright. It is probably fine then.

Thx for help. Also can you please give input on this?

Text Manipulation (Mana users can write word/rune of things that hold the literal power of things itself.)

 

[FinePoint]

Thx for help. Also can you please give input on this?

Seems like a valid example of Text Manipulation.

 

[Ultimate-Rex1]

Seems like a valid example of Text Manipulation.

I'm really sorry for so many questions but can you give us your opinion on this?

• 1 Layer: Rock Monster, an Golems was charmed by Charmcaster to be resist against Mana. Gwen an Mana user, can affect these Rock Monster, many times.
• 2 Layers: The Geochelone Aerios, an aliens have resistance to Mana, and they shown don't affect by Gwen's mana. Masters of mana like Gwen and Charmcaster after become more powerful, they can ues mana to affect Geochelone Aerios, like Galapagus and Addwaitya, and even sealed them in mana shield.

• His immeasurable LS shouldn't via Telekinesis, since he should be superior to Feedback when he was absorbed big bang

 

[Firestorm808]

Ok

Here

They has ability to manipulate names/words which has literal power of things itself like Ichibe Hyosube


After thinking I think this is not even Instinctive Action

Here.

Her eyes don't glow with mana and this means that it did not use a mana sensor.


She see them through between Dimensions

YES

Here.

What? She also sealed him in her mana shield

He was injured by it, and it counted several times of it, like she sealed him in her mana shield like Aggregor's fusion

Ok

Didn't Ultimate Kevin accept that he owns 10/10 of the Ultimate Aggregor?

Here

Gwen says there's a lot of people out there who she couldn't sense their mana.

1. N/A
2. Only the last of the 4 clips is fine for Text Manip
3. Per our site, "Text Manipulation - The ability to manipulate written media." It doesn't care about the abstract definition of names, just literal text.
4. Okay
5. His Mana Aura does not inherently induce fear in people.
6. The full clip shows that she is using mana from her hand to see them.
7. That would just be a form of enhanced/dimensional vision via magic. X-Rays are a specific thing.
8. "Enhanced senses are when a user has physical senses such as sight, smell, hearing, and touch far above what is normal for humans." Being aware of the thought manipulations is just part of her mind manip resistance.
9. According to Gwen, the specific golems in the scene were specifically charmed to work against her. You would need to prove that all golems moving forward in the series have the same charm to work against Gwen.
10. I'm saying that a baseline Geochelone Aerios's resistance isn't omnidirectional. They can still get hurt by mana shots not to the chest.
11. Like I said, sealing a baseline Geochelone Aerios in a mana ball works, but sealing Aggegor in a ball doesn't. Aggregor's resistance is omnidirectional.
12. N/A
13. According to our scaling thread, we treat Ultimate Kevin as utilizing 1/10 of Ultimate Aggregor's power.
14. Link is unavailable.
15. That doesn't mean that life was literally erased. Just them dying can cause the same effect.

 

[Ultimate-Rex1]

1. N/A
2. Only the last of the 4 clips is fine for Text Manip
3. Per our site, "Text Manipulation - The ability to manipulate written media." It doesn't care about the abstract definition of names, just literal text.
4. Okay

Ok

1. His Mana Aura does not inherently induce fear in people.

It literally when Forever Knights see his aura, they says "Mercy" who used in expressions of surprise or fear.

1. The full clip shows that she is using mana from her hand to see them.

See here, she don't even use her mana.

1. That would just be a form of enhanced/dimensional vision via magic. X-Rays are a specific thing.

She see through barrier between dimensions

1. "Enhanced senses are when a user has physical senses such as sight, smell, hearing, and touch far above what is normal for humans." Being aware of the thought manipulations is just part of her mind manip resistance.

Ok

1. According to Gwen, the specific golems in the scene were specifically charmed to work against her. You would need to prove that all golems moving forward in the series have the same charm to work against Gwen.

Only Charmcaster's golems are immune to Gwen's Mana, and Gwen can affect her golems.

1. I'm saying that a baseline Geochelone Aerios's resistance isn't omnidirectional. They can still get hurt by mana shots not to the chest.

Who is not omnidirectional??? As Aggregor say Geochelone Aerios are unaffected by mana

1. Like I said, sealing a baseline Geochelone Aerios in a mana ball works, but sealing Aggegor in a ball doesn't. Aggregor's resistance is omnidirectional.

It literally says they unaffected by mana

1. N/A
2. According to our scaling thread, we treat Ultimate Kevin as utilizing 1/10 of Ultimate Aggregor's power.
3. Link is unavailable.
4. That doesn't mean that life was literally erased. Just them dying can cause the same effect.

Fine

 

[Ultimate-Rex1]

1. That doesn't mean that life was literally erased. Just them dying can cause the same effect.

What about Resistance to Extrasensory Perception/Mana Sensor, since Gwen can't senses them anymore, and add Resistance Bestowal to Dark Mana?
Also you don't give me your opinion on this

Alien X:

• His immeasurable LS shouldn't via Telekinesis, since he should be superior to Feedback when he was absorbed big bang

 

[Antvasima]

Firestorm808's conclusions here seem fine to me as well.

Also, I think that it seems weird with tier 4-B regular humans in the Ben 10 verse. Shouldn't we consider that as artistic license outliers?

 

[Ultimate-Rex1]

Firestorm808's conclusions here seem fine to me as well.

Also, I think that it seems weird with tier 4-B regular humans in the Ben 10 verse. Shouldn't we consider that as artistic license outliers?

Only Ben and Max are regular humans who has 4-B Tier but they have combat skill, as they are plumbers (they also comparable to Gwen and Kevin).

 

[Adr10K]

mostly agree with Firestorm here

Idk why they didn't ask you about this before and focused on things that don't matter at all in comparison, but, do you agree with Mana being Info Type 2?

• "So IM here is Limited because users need to know the true name of things. But, it should be a weakness since users who know the true names of things wouldn't be limited."
• If other staff are fine with it, sure.

 

[Ultimate-Rex1]

Idk why they didn't ask you about this before and focused on things that don't matter at all in comparison, but, do you agree with Mana being Info Type 2?

He say agreed with full Info Manip (Also True Name is Information Type 2)

 

[FinePoint]

Per our site, "Text Manipulation - The ability to manipulate written media." It doesn't care about the abstract definition of names, just literal text

There was literal text at the top of the portal (though in some alien language).

They changed it multiple times during their demonstration.

 

[Hellformer]

Also, I think that it seems weird with tier 4-B regular humans in the Ben 10 verse. Shouldn't we consider that as artistic license outliers?

You can't have multiple outliers, this ain't Marvel or DC

 

[Ultimate-Rex1]

Bump

 

[Firestorm808]

Bump

What else is there to discuss?

 

[Ultimate-Rex1]

What else is there to discuss?

This

Alien X:

• His immeasurable LS shouldn't via Telekinesis, since he should be superior to Feedback when he was absorbed big bang

And these:

What about Resistance to Extrasensory Perception/Mana Sensor, since Gwen can't senses them anymore, and add Resistance Bestowal to Dark Mana?

Can be add as also Age Manipulation Negation? Because effects of Ascalon's powers was removed and make George back to old.

If this helps, Gwen's trackinc abilities need to travel a physical distance when searching for / trying for detecting something, as shown here [4:31], or at least that's how OV portrayed it.

 

[Firestorm808]

Firestorm808's conclusions here seem fine to me as well.

Also, I think that it seems weird with tier 4-B regular humans in the Ben 10 verse. Shouldn't we consider that as artistic license outliers?

Not sure.

 

[Ultimate-Rex1]

This

And these:

Not sure.

Pls you opinion on these

 

[Firestorm808]

• Alien X: His immeasurable LSshouldn't via Telekinesis, since he should be superior to Feedback when he was absorbed Big Bang
  • What's the justification that he should be superior to Post-Absorption Feedback via regular strength?
• What about Resistance to Extrasensory Perception/Mana Sensor, since Gwen can't senses them anymore
  • You need to show Gwen can sense the recently dead in the first place.
• and add Resistance Bestowal to Dark Mana?
  • Resistance to what?
• Can be add as also Age Manipulation Negation? Because the effects of Ascalon's powers were removed, making George go back to his old self.
  • It's debatable whether George aged because he lost the connection to Ascalon vs Dagon's power directly reversing his age change.
• If this helps, Gwen's tracking abilities need to travel a physical distance when searching for / trying to detect something, as shown here [4:31], or at least that's how OV portrayed it.
  • Giving a speed to her "magic sonar" should be fine.

 

[Hellformer]

• Alien X: His immeasurable LSshouldn't via Telekinesis, since he should be superior to Feedback when he was absorbed Big Bang
  • What's the justification that he should be superior to Past-Absorption Feedback via regular strength?

How about "at least comparable if not superior"
Or
"Possibly at least comparable if not superior"

 

[Ultimate-Rex1]

• Alien X: His immeasurable LSshouldn't via Telekinesis, since he should be superior to Feedback when he was absorbed Big Bang
  • What's the justification that he should be superior to Past-Absorption Feedback via regular strength?

It's says Celestialsapiens is most powerful beings in Universe/Space Beyond and it's stated by Paradox who know everything will happen in the future.

• What about Resistance to Extrasensory Perception/Mana Sensor, since Gwen can't senses them anymore
  • You need to show Gwen can sense the recently dead in the first place.

So Death Manipulation to Dark Mana and Immunity to Mana Sensor for them?

• and add Resistance Bestowal to Dark Mana?
  • Resistance to what?

Nvm

• Can be add as also Age Manipulation Negation? Because the effects of Ascalon's powers were removed, making George go back to his old self.
  • It's debatable whether George aged because he lost the connection to Ascalon vs Dagon's power directly reversing his age change.

Ok

 

[Firestorm808]

How about "at least comparable if not superior"
Or
"Possibly at least comparable if not superior"

With the justification being?

 

[Firestorm808]

It's says Celestialsapiens is most powerful beings in Universe/Space Beyond and it's stated by Paradox who know everything will happen in the future.

Is there a precedent for this sort of LS justification on a different profile on the site?

So Death Manipulation to Dark Mana and Immunity to Mana Sensor for them?

You need to confirm the cause of their death.

There are no immunities here.

 

[Ultimate-Rex1]

Is there a precedent for this sort of LS justification on a different profile on the site?

Yes
Saitama:

possibly Class E (Stated by Tatsumaki to have surpassed her powers)

Xeon Goku:

Immeasurable (Comparable to Dark Broly in the Dark Empire saga. Grew in strength and became comparable to CC Goku who at the time of Universe Mission/Prison Planet Saga is stated to be strongest warrior<a href="https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Son_Goku_(Xeno)#cite_note-Saikyo_Jump_July_2020-189"><span>[</span>188<span>]</span></a> thus making them superior to even Time Power Unleashed Mechikabura)

You need to confirm the cause of their death.

There are no immunities here.

Ok

 

[Firestorm808]

Saitama:
Xeon Goku:

• The Saitama example is a direct comparison of Saitama's physicals to the limits of his psychic powers (including Telekinesis). Saitama doesn't use an esoteric power for his abilities. It's pure muscle, so it's straightforward.
• For Broly, it's comparing his Super Full Power Saiyan 4 Limit Breaker form to Vegito's Super Full Power Saiyan 4 Limit Breaker and then to Dark King Fu's feat.

Do we have a scene of Alien X catching the Galactic Gladiator's punches? That can work for LS.

 

[Ultimate-Rex1]

• The Saitama example is a direct comparison of Saitama's physicals to the limits of his psychic powers (including Telekinesis). Saitama doesn't use an esoteric power for his abilities. It's pure muscle, so it's straightforward.
• For Broly, it's comparing his Super Full Power Saiyan 4 Limit Breaker form to Vegito's Super Full Power Saiyan 4 Limit Breaker and then to Dark King Fu's feat.

Do we have a scene of Alien X catching the Galactic Gladiator's punches? That can work for LS.

Yh we do have (here, here and here)

 

[Firestorm808]

Yh we do have (here, here and here)

Using those to scale AX's LS to GG's Striking should be fine.

 

[Ultimate-Rex1]

Using those to scale AX's LS to GG's Striking should be fine.

Before close this, can you reply to this?

Only Charmcaster's golems are immune to Gwen's Mana, and Gwen can affect her golems.


Who is not omnidirectional??? As Aggregor say Geochelone Aerios are unaffected by mana

 

[Firestorm808]

• Only Charmcaster's golems are immune to Gwen's Mana, and Gwen can affect her golems.
  • Are you saying that Charmcaster's golems from that point onward were always charmed to be immune to Gwen's Mana?
• Who is not omnidirectional??? As Aggregor say Geochelone Aerios are unaffected by mana
  • The clips you provided showed Galapegus being unaffected by mana shots to the chest, but he was knocked down by one to the back of the head. Galapegus was also contained within a mana prison ball.
  • In comparison, Ultimate Aggregor nulled all mana attacks and the mana prison ball.

 

[Ultimate-Rex1]

• Only Charmcaster's golems are immune to Gwen's Mana, and Gwen can affect her golems.
  • Are you saying that Charmcaster's golems from that point onward were always charmed to be immune to Gwen's Mana?

Yes

• Who is not omnidirectional??? As Aggregor say Geochelone Aerios are unaffectedby mana
  • The clips you provided showed Galapegus being unaffected by mana shots to the chest, but he was knocked down by one to the back of the head. Galapegus was also contained within a mana prison ball.

This is because of the area she is in. This is a place that did not have a lot of mana/life and it contains a lot of technology, and when you look at a city that contains many life forms such as humans, aliens and trees, she was literally able to overthrow him.

 

[Firestorm808]

Yes

You need justification to support the claim that this is the case from that point onward.

This is because of the area she is in. This is a place that did not have a lot of mana/life and it contains a lot of technology, and when you look at a city that contains many life forms such as humans, aliens and trees, she was literally able to overthrow him.

Mana bolts and Mana Beams are two different levels of attack power. Like I said before, Galapegus was unaffected by mana bolts to the chest, but he was knocked down by one to the back of the head.

The mana beam's AP in this case was able to overcome the natural resistance in the torso and cause an effect.

 

[Ultimate-Rex1]

You need justification to support the claim that this is the case from that point onward.

Mana bolts and Mana Beams are two different levels of attack power. Like I said before, Galapegus was unaffected by mana bolts to the chest, but he was knocked down by one to the back of the head.

No, Mana has UES so all Mana blasts beams, blots possess same level of Attack Potency there no statement proof that are different in AP.

The mana beam's AP in this case was able to overcome the natural resistance in the torso and cause an effect.

"Unaffected by Mana" not blots lol.

 

[Firestorm808]

No, Mana has UES so all Mana blasts beams, blots possess same level of Attack Potency there no statement proof that are different in AP.

Ki in Dragon Ball is also a UES, but generic Ki bolts are still scaled differently than a Kamehameha.

"Unaffected by Mana" not blots lol.

That's what Aggregor says about Geochelone Aerios, but demonstrably, it's not entirely the case.

A baseline Geochelone Aerios has a resistance to Mana, but it's not demonstrated as all-encompassing.

 

[Ultimate-Rex1]

Ki in Dragon Ball is also a UES, but generic Ki bolts are still scaled differently than a Kamehameha.

Different system, Different verse, this is because owners of Ki can Use a different level if you want, according to the UES page, if spells work on UeS, then all attacks and physical statistics will be equal in AP, Strength and Durability.

Universal Energy System: Universal Energy Systems (alternatively called a Universal Power System or a Connective Energy System) are systems in which a feat, whether it is one of physical statistics (Striking Strength or Durability) or of supernatural powers (e.g. energy beams), would also scale to all other statistics. That means if such a character for instance demonstrates a Building level fireball spell, they would be assumed to have at least Building level Striking Strength, Attack Potency and Durability. If they have other spells, like for example water blades, they would be assumed to be able to

That's what Aggregor says about Geochelone Aerios, but demonstrably, it's not entirely the case.

A baseline Geochelone Aerios has a resistance to Mana, but it's not demonstrated as all-encompassing.

It doesn't need to be, Pure Mana outperforms the rest of Mana, so this way why Gwen's mana outperforms Geochelone Aerio's resistance, it's on another level than natural mana. Even Aggregor say this when he see Gwen's Mana sealed not Mana blots

 

[Ultimate-Rex1]

Ki in Dragon Ball is also a UES, but generic Ki bolts are still scaled differently than a Kamehameha.


That's what Aggregor says about Geochelone Aerios, but demonstrably, it's not entirely the case.

A baseline Geochelone Aerios has a resistance to Mana, but it's not demonstrated as all-encompassing.

Sorry i forgot this are you OK with Resistance to Power Nullification via Addwaitya's feat?

 

[Ultimate-Rex1]

Bump

 

[Firestorm808]

It doesn't need to be, Pure Mana outperforms the rest of Mana, so this way why Gwen's mana outperforms Geochelone Aerio's resistance, it's on another level than natural mana. Even Aggregor say this when he see Gwen's Mana sealed not Mana blots

What is your reasoning as to why Gwen's mana bolts couldn't affect a Geochelone Aerios to the chest with a visible effect, but she could affect it with a bolt to the back of the head, surround it with a mana shield, and hit the chest with a mana beam with a visible effect?

 

[Firestorm808]

Sorry i forgot this are you OK with Resistance to Power Nullification via Addwaitya's feat?

Upon re-examining the clips, Gwen's "Binding Spell" is not power nullification.

 

[Ultimate-Rex1]

What is your reasoning as to why Gwen's mana bolts couldn't affect a Geochelone Aerios to the chest with a visible effect,

It's because place, it was literally explained that each particular area where Gwen in it would cause reduce or increase in her powers, like when she in forest, it would cause Gwen to becomes stronger than before, since trees are full of mana.

but she could affect it with a bolt to the back of the head, surround it with a mana shield, and hit the chest with a mana beam with a visible effect?

Gwen hit Galapagos in the head just to break the mind control disk, not for harm him. Clearly the area that she is in is not full of mana being an area of experimentation and technology.

 

[Firestorm808]

It's because place, it was literally explained that each particular area where Gwen in it would cause reduce or increase in her powers, like when she in forest, it would cause Gwen to becomes stronger than before, since trees are full of mana.

Gwen hit Galapagos in the head just to break the mind control disk, not for harm him. Clearly the area that she is in is not full of mana being an area of experimentation and technology.

I do not consider that to be a usable reason for those scenes. Such "dis/advantage" was not noted or made apparent in the episodes in question.