[Mario & Luigi: Dream Team] Mario & Luigi's Dreamy Luigi Key Revisions (& Antasma)

[AlloyAmi]

Currently on the profiles, Mario has an "Empowered by Dreamy Luigi" key, and Luigi has a "Dreamy Luigi" key, and this is the following justification for both of them:

"Multiverse level (Able to beat the Zeekeeper alongside Mario, who defeated a Dark Stone-empowered Antasma, with him even considering them impressive. The Zeekeeper is capable of destroying Neo Bowser Castle's barrier, which was created by the Dream Stone - an artifact containing a cosmology of 100,000 universes)"

The way this is worded implies Mario was amplified by Dream Luigi when they fuse to defeat the Zeekeeper similar to other standard enemies in the game and that this is performed with base Dream Luigi scaling. Howevever this is not the case. This feat is done by Giant Dreamy Luigi who is amplified by fusing himself with a bunch of Luiginoids and otherwise it is treated like they wouldn't stand a chance. (Watch from 1:11:45:05 to 1:11:47:04).

Mario is not amplified during these fights as they aren't fused (which is what amps mario to begin with), and he merely provides a supportive role during the giant fights such as helping Luigi with healing, his spins, and piloting the star diver for the finisher (which also isn't his own power).

Regarding what tier Mario is while actually fused, it should be similar to his base scaling, nothing significantly higher (but a bit stronger cuz its him + luigi into 1) considering he can still hold his own when Antasma literally pulls Dreamy Luigi out of him and seals him into one of his orbs, with him potentially even eating Dream Luigi if he isn't rescued along with making HIMSELF stronger against base mario who can still hold his own against him at his full power in the dream world.

There ARE higher end dream team fights such as base antasma at his weakest in the real world being able to consume nightmares (bad dreams) like a snack, dreamy luigi can survive being eaten by him, and dreamy luigi becoming one with the dream world, which can explain how he can manipulate and be one with major aspects of the dream world as shown with luiginary works. Of course this scaling likely requires another crt for consistency on the wiki (and theres also the fact that base real world mario and luigi powercreep themselves as they can fight dreamy bowser on par with the zeekeeper by the VERY end) so I'm listing these for the sake of saying they exist

However, the primary focus of this thread is to fix the dreamy luigi keys for now.

Therefore, Mario being amplified by Dreamy Luigi should not be 2-B, along with base Dreamy Luigi in Luigi's page, and it should be:

Mario: High 6-A

Luigi: High 6-A, 2-B as Giant Dreamy Luigi

Edit: It has been brought to be attention that Antasma WITHOUT the dark stone is also rated as 2-B, and this should not be the case.

This is what the profile currently says:

Key: Real World | Dream World | With the Dark Stone

"Unknown (Fought evenly with Dreambert in his Bat form) | Multiverse level (Can fight evenly with Mario powered-up by Dreamy Luigi. According to a Pi’illo Master, Antasma has consumed the nightmares of many Pi’illos) | Multiverse level (Empowered by the Dark Stone, which is the dark equivalent of the Dream Stone, which contains a cosmology of 100,000 universes. Fought the Zeekeeper)"

Regarding the feat where he consumed nightmares, this is done by his real world tiny bat self. However the scan very clearly treats it as them being eaten one by one. This is a very clear cut Low 2-C feat for his Real World self and has no reason to be 2-B.

The Dream World key is where that same feat above is listed and is rated as 2-B for some reason even though it isn't for the reasons i explained above and is Low 2-C. His Dream World Key doesn't have any specific feats but it should be rated as At least Low 2-C as he states this is where he is at his full power. And he went from being evenly matched with Dreambert, to literally No Diffing him in seconds. The last key is fine.

Regarding how this is treated considering Base Mario absolutely scales to the first 2 keys but the wiki currently doesn't have him at low 2-c, i am unsure, since a mario upgrade is a can of worms that would need its own entire crt so it might just be another """outlier""" for now. However this can apply for dreamy luigi at the very least

 

[Dust_Collector]

 

[Speedblitzer50]

Goodbye 2-B Mario...

 

[Ghengiroo115]

I agree with the 2-B downgrade as it’s never made much sense to me why they’re scaling to the feats of a transformation, unless they were downscaling from Giant Dreamy Luigi being a fusion of a finite number of Luiginoids. However because they are a finite number, I’m not 100% sure if going all the way down to High 6-A is the right option.

There ARE higher end dream team fights such as base antasma at his weakest in the real world being able to consume nightmares (bad dreams) like a snack, dreamy luigi can survive being eaten by him, and dreamy luigi becoming one with the dream world, which can explain how he can manipulate and be one with major aspects of the dream world as shown with luiginary works. Of course this scaling likely requires another crt for consistency on the wiki (and theres also the fact that base real world mario and luigi powercreep themselves as they can fight dreamy bowser on par with the zeekeeper by the VERY end) so I'm listing these for the sake of saying they exist

The stuff with Antasma eating nightmares and Dreamy Luigi being one with the dream world suggests Low 2-C to 2-C power. While the tiering system doesn’t apply multipliers to Tier 2 in this way, I feel like it would be internally more realistic for a fusion of Low 2-Cs to become 2-B than a fusion of High 6-As.

As for how Mario can go against Antasma, I guess just handwave it as an outlier like with Dreamy Bowser. I personally don’t like that answer, but I’d prefer if Antasma and Dreamy Luigi still scaled to their own feats/statements.

At the end of the day though this is just my preference. They shouldn’t be scaling to Giant Dreamy Luigi’s feats, so whether they end up Tier 6 or Tier 2 at the end I’m not too bothered.

 

[AlloyAmi]

I agree with the 2-B downgrade as it’s never made much sense to me why they’re scaling to the feats of a transformation, unless they were downscaling from Giant Dreamy Luigi being a fusion of a finite number of Luiginoids. However because they are a finite number, I’m not 100% sure if going all the way down to High 6-A is the right option.


The stuff with Antasma eating nightmares and Dreamy Luigi being one with the dream world suggests Low 2-C to 2-C power. While the tiering system doesn’t apply multipliers to Tier 2 in this way, I feel like it would be internally more realistic for a fusion of Low 2-Cs to become 2-B than a fusion of High 6-As.

As for how Mario can go against Antasma, I guess just handwave it as an outlier like with Dreamy Bowser. I personally don’t like that answer, but I’d prefer if Antasma and Dreamy Luigi still scaled to their own feats/statements.

At the end of the day though this is just my preference. They shouldn’t be scaling to Giant Dreamy Luigi’s feats, so whether they end up Tier 6 or Tier 2 at the end I’m not too bothered.

I agree they should be tier 2 in base via those feats and a variety of others, but based on how the wiki currently treats marios base tier scaling id need a much more extensive crt on the franchise as a whole to provide that consistency which is not the battle im willing to argue for atm.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Seems reasonable at first, but Luiginoids are more or less the same context of Naruto using Shadow Clone Jutsu. Though, that does not take away context of proposal, but individually shouldn't be too much lower. And proposals having a decent placeholder seems fine.

Though, Low 2-C scaling is for another day, and absolutely up to 2-B via Power of Bonds is a real must though.

 

[JPTheGamer]

Seems like this would count as further evidence for a 2-B base

 

[Starsprite53]

I agree with this, always hated that tiering.

 

[ZespeonGalaxy]

Great points provided all around. Unfortunate but given how mario simply does not scale. I sadly have to agree.

 

[Apex_Predator_GX]

Seems reasonable at first, but Luiginoids are more or less the same context of Naruto using Shadow Clone Jutsu. Though, that does not take away context of proposal, but individually shouldn't be too much lower. And proposals having a decent placeholder seems fine.

Though, Low 2-C scaling is for another day, and absolutely up to 2-B via Power of Bonds is a real must though.

Agree.

 

[AlloyAmi]

Regarding the Luiginoids and "shadow clone jutsu", i dont really know naruto, but many of them standardly should be able to scale to base when they are fighting normal enemies/bosses and doing the luiginary bros attacks, but the giant enemies are treated as much different and it is overall treated as a significant amp with seemingly countless of them throughout the dream world fusing with luigi with the strong wish and desire to protect his brother. So i personally disagree with them downscaling the giant form, and the only way I'd say they scale is if you accept them powercreeping all the bosses by the end with Dreamy Bowser (which is valid scaling in the context of dream team)

 

[JPTheGamer]

@AlloyAmi Okay, there's a lot that needs to be addressed here.

The way this is worded implies Mario was amplified by Dream Luigi when they fuse to defeat the Zeekeeper, similar to other standard enemies in the game, and that this is performed with base Dream Luigi scaling. Howevever this is not the case. This feat is done by Giant Dreamy Luigi who is amplified by fusing himself with a bunch of Luiginoids and otherwise it is treated like they wouldn't stand a chance. (Watch from 1:11:45:05 to 1:11:47:04).

First off, the reason for Mario’s “Empowered by Dreamy Luigi” key is because of the fusion throughout the Dream World sections, where Mario’s abilities and stats are amped by his dreamy bro. The Giant Battles aren't the only factor; Mario repeatedly uses Dreamy Luigi’s power in combat when it comes to Luiginary Attacks, fusion, and reality-warping in the Dream World.

Second of all, the Zeekeeper scaling isn't limited to Giant Luigi, because he's a being capable of breaking Neo Bowser Castle’s barrier, which is backed by the Dream Stone’s cosmology, and Mario is tied to Luigi in these battles, so his empowerment key exists to represent that exact state

Regarding what tier Mario is while actually fused, it should be similar to his base scaling, nothing significantly higher (but a bit stronger cuz its him + luigi into 1) considering he can still hold his own when Antasma literally pulls Dreamy Luigi out of him and seals him into one of his orbs, with him potentially even eating Dream Luigi if he isn't rescued along with making HIMSELF stronger against base mario who can still hold his own against him at his full power in the dream world.

There ARE higher end dream team fights such as base antasma at his weakest in the real world being able to consume nightmares (bad dreams) like a snack, dreamy luigi can survive being eaten by him, and dreamy luigi becoming one with the dream world, which can explain how he can manipulate and be one with major aspects of the dream world as shown with luiginary works. Of course this scaling likely requires another crt for consistency on the wiki (and theres also the fact that base real world mario and luigi powercreep themselves as they can fight dreamy bowser on par with the zeekeeper by the VERY end) so I'm listing these for the sake of saying they exist

Third, the fusion between Mario and Luigi is portrayed as a massive amp. Luiginary attacks allow Mario to summon dozens of Luigis for cosmic-scale assaults, so if fusion was trivial, Zeekeeper and Dreamy Bowser would be absurdly downplayed below their own lore-stated power.

Fourth and finally, Antasma can consume nightmares, and Dreamy Luigi scales to Antasma because he withstands being eaten and still functions. That already supports Dreamy Luigi scaling beyond Antasma’s baseline, which in turn reflects back to Mario when empowered. Also, Antasma respecting Mario and Luigi’s strength by calling their performance impressive supports their parity with entities who scale to Zeekeeper-level threats.

I disagree with this revision

 

[AlloyAmi]

First off, the reason for Mario’s “Empowered by Dreamy Luigi” key is because of the fusion throughout the Dream World sections, where Mario’s abilities and stats are amped by his dreamy bro. The Giant Battles aren't the only factor; Mario repeatedly uses Dreamy Luigi’s power in combat when it comes to Luiginary Attacks, fusion, and reality-warping in the Dream World.

I literally addressed this in the OP, i said their fusion isnt that much higher above their base scaling and it literally takes into account both of their stats as well. the antasma fight also proves this as base mario can hold his own as i showed in op. in fact they don't even fuse until the battle starts and Mario can get an opening attack in on enemies in the dream world. Theres also no reason for bosses such as the elite trio and kamek to randomly be MASSIVELY stronger when fought in the dream world (where marios fused with dreamy luigi) when we see characters like bowser jr and the koopalings can defeat them in Bowser Jr's Journey, and Kamek is self explanatory throughout the series. It's very clearly not meant to be a significant amp but moreso mario and luigi in 1 & some luiginoid techniques/abilities. Mario also isn't warping the Dream World while fused. That's done by dreamy luigi alone when they are seperated in the overworld. All they do in this fused state is a stat amp (via fusing) and luiginary attacks which is just dream world bros attacks.

Second of all, the Zeekeeper scaling isn't limited to Giant Luigi, because he's a being capable of breaking Neo Bowser Castle’s barrier, which is backed by the Dream Stone’s cosmology, and Mario is tied to Luigi in these battles, so his empowerment key exists to represent that exact state

you realize dreamy bowser is fought in the real world right? dreamy luigi isn't involved. thats outright their base scaling. Dreamy Bowser can even grab one of the bros and they need to use their individual power to free the other.

Third, the fusion between Mario and Luigi is portrayed as a massive amp. Luiginary attacks allow Mario to summon dozens of Luigis for cosmic-scale assaults, so if fusion was trivial, Zeekeeper and Dreamy Bowser would be absurdly downplayed below their own lore-stated power.

No its not its relatively minor as explained above and i once again point at the antasma fight when he seals away dreamy luigi and base mario can hold his own. and the zeekeeper and dreamy bowser aren't even fought by mario being empowered by dreamy luigi. they are fought by giant dreamy luigi and base mario & luigi respectively. if you want to scale mario to the zeekeeper, that would be his base by the end of the game, not during the dream world fight.

Fourth and finally, Antasma can consume nightmares, and Dreamy Luigi scales to Antasma because he withstands being eaten and still functions. That already supports Dreamy Luigi scaling beyond Antasma’s baseline, which in turn reflects back to Mario when empowered. Also, Antasma respecting Mario and Luigi’s strength by calling their performance impressive supports their parity with entities who scale to Zeekeeper-level threats.

Base real world antasma who does those feats is shown to be rather weak compared to the cast as even dreambert was able to fight on par while full power antasma no diffed him. base mario can hold his own against full power antasma even when dreamy luigi is sealed as shown in op. they dont need this amplification to get the tier 2 scaling which once again I said i agree with but would require another crt to apply for base scaling.

I once again am iterating this crt is mainly to focus on fixing the presentation of the key, and I do not deny these base form scaling feats. I included them for the sake for future reference when their base scaling eventually is revised out of tier 6 but the replacement tiering i listed is merely what they are going to be for now.

 

[JPTheGamer]

I literally addressed this in the OP, i said their fusion isnt that much higher above their base scaling and it literally takes into account both of their stats as well. the antasma fight also proves this as base mario can hold his own as i showed in op. in fact they don't even fuse until the battle starts and Mario can get an opening attack in on enemies in the dream world. Theres also no reason for bosses such as the elite trio and kamek to randomly be MASSIVELY stronger when fought in the dream world (where marios fused with dreamy luigi) when we see characters like bowser jr and the koopalings can defeat them in Bowser Jr's Journey, and Kamek is self explanatory throughout the series. It's very clearly not meant to be a significant amp but moreso mario and luigi in 1 & some luiginoid techniques/abilities. Mario also isn't warping the Dream World while fused. That's done by dreamy luigi alone when they are seperated in the overworld. All they do in this fused state is a stat amp (via fusing) and luiginary attacks which is just dream world bros attacks.

you realize dreamy bowser is fought in the real world right? dreamy luigi isn't involved. thats outright their base scaling. Dreamy Bowser can even grab one of the bros and they need to use their individual power to free the other.

No its not its relatively minor as explained above and i once again point at the antasma fight when he seals away dreamy luigi and base mario can hold his own. and the zeekeeper and dreamy bowser aren't even fought by mario being empowered by dreamy luigi. they are fought by giant dreamy luigi and base mario & luigi respectively. if you want to scale mario to the zeekeeper, that would be his base by the end of the game, not during the dream world fight.

Base real world antasma who does those feats is shown to be rather weak compared to the cast as even dreambert was able to fight on par while full power antasma no diffed him. base mario can hold his own against full power antasma even when dreamy luigi is sealed as shown in op. they dont need this amplification to get the tier 2 scaling which once again I said i agree with but would require another crt to apply for base scaling.

I once again am iterating this crt is mainly to focus on fixing the presentation of the key, and I do not deny these base form scaling feats. I included them for the sake for future reference when their base scaling eventually is revised out of tier 6 but the replacement tiering i listed is merely what they are going to be for now.

Lemme address my point...

I'm not saying Mario can't be 2-B in base; I'm saying that his key shouldn't be removed because he's harming Antasma with Dreamy Luigi's attacks. Mario can fight Antasma with AND without Dreamy Luigi; Mario with his brother scales to Antasma the same way he does without him, and Dreamy Luigi obviously scales to Antasma because he withstands being eaten by him and can harm him with his attacks all without turning giant. If the 2-B rating was given to Dreamy Luigi only when he was a giant, that line of powerscaling wouldn't make any sense.

 

[AlloyAmi]

Lemme address my point...

I'm not saying Mario can't be 2-B in base; I'm saying that his key shouldn't be removed because he's harming Antasma with Dreamy Luigi's attacks. Mario can fight Antasma with AND without Dreamy Luigi; Mario with his brother scales to Antasma the same way he does without him, and Dreamy Luigi obviously scales to Antasma because he withstands being eaten by him and can harm him with his attacks all without turning giant. If the 2-B rating was given to Dreamy Luigi only when he was a giant, that line of powerscaling wouldn't make any sense.

firstly i never suggested removing the key, just revising the ratings.

going to ignore the rest because wtf i just realized antasma is 2-b without the dark stone on the wiki. in fact the feat being used for it was done by his real world bat form not him at his full power in the dream world. thanks for pointing that out cuz this absolutely should not be the case and should be changed as well. that feat wouldnt even be 2-b. it would be low 2-c as hes consuming individual nightmares 1 by 1.

id revise antasma as the following:

Real World: Low 2-C | Dream World: At least Low 2-C | With dark stone: 2-B

the thing that makes this annoying is how this wiki currently rates base mario who also objectively scales to the first 2 keys in base so that other can of worms will probably have to be handled sooner then later. how a matter like this is treated on the wiki i wouldnt know and I'd need input from someone else.

 

[JPTheGamer]

firstly i never suggested removing the key, just revising the ratings.

Then if you're not suggesting removing the key, what are you suggesting? If you’re saying we should keep Mario in his Dreamy Luigi key at High 6-A, that also wouldn't make sense knowing that he's battling Antasma who is currently 2-B with AND without Dreamy Luigi

 

[AlloyAmi]

Then if you're not suggesting removing the key, what are you suggesting?

That it is rescaled to their base scaling because their base form clearly scales. I would argue the base scaling is low 2-c but i think you know why I'm not.

If you’re saying we should keep Mario in his Dreamy Luigi key at High 6-A, that also wouldn't make sense knowing that he's battling Antasma who is currently 2-B with AND without Dreamy Luigi

Added an antasma revision to the crt because antasma with no dark stone being 2-b makes no sense. He's still low 2-c though so lol. Mario would need a seperate crt to get upgraded to that though. This crt wasn't supposed to focus on that though which is what makes this a little annoying. So it's likely yet another """outlier""" for now.

 

[JPTheGamer]

That it is rescaled to their base scaling because their base form clearly scales.

Added an antasma revision to the crt because antasma with no dark stone being 2-b makes no sense. He's still low 2-c though so lol. Mario would need a seperate crt to get upgraded to that though. This crt wasn't supposed to focus on that though which is what makes this a little annoying. So it's likely yet another """outlier""" for now.

So, you're suggesting Low 2-C for Mario being empowered by Dreamy Luigi or what?

 

[AlloyAmi]

So, you're suggesting Low 2-C for Mario being empowered by Dreamy Luigi or what?

now you see why i realized how annoying this is without tackling marios base scaling being low 2-c in the series in general.

yesn't,

no because the empowerment isnt a massive jump in tiering, the empowerment should still the same tier as base mario, but base mario isn't low 2-c on the wiki right now.
yes in the sense of i already think base mario is low 2-c and dreamy luigi empowerment should just be slightly higher into this same tier but i can't currently treat it as so until a crt regarding that drops and is accepted.

Now I'm just lost because idk how to treat this issue now.

 

[JPTheGamer]

now you see why i realized how annoying this is without tackling marios base scaling being low 2-c in the series in general.

yesn't,

no because the empowerment isnt a massive jump in tiering, the empowerment should still the same tier as base mario, but base mario isn't low 2-c on the wiki right now.
yes in the sense of i already think base mario is low 2-c and dreamy luigi empowerment should just be slightly higher into this same tier but i can't currently treat it as so until a crt regarding that drops and is accepted.

Now I'm just lost because idk how to treat this issue now.

I really have no idea what you're proposing here.

I mean, at first, you say Dreamy Luigi empowered Mario should be the same as his High 6-A base despite the fact he has battled Antasma who is tier 2 in the Dream World both with and without Dreamy Luigi, and now you're telling me he should be Low 2-C?

Can somebody better explain this to me?

 

[Foxthefox1000]

I think you just ran into an inherent issue with the profiles, OP.

Regardless of the arguments people might come into thus thread with attacking dream sizes, at the very least even the worst people have argued is that they can't go any lower than 4-A. But this ALSO contradicts the profiles since the base cast are High 6-A currently but we have a blatant and direct cosmic feat performed by the weakest iteration of a major antagonist whom you only fight when he's explicitly become more powerful.

The wiki will probably elect to claim this as an outlier and move on but it's sowing seeds that are ready to dig into and permeate through the entire franchise, as we already have a few other "outliers".

But for now I'm in agreement with everything listed just out of complacency. Don't feel like turning this thread into yet another multiple page argument that's common for this verse.

 

[AlloyAmi]

I really have no idea what you're proposing here.

I mean, at first, you say Dreamy Luigi empowered Mario should be the same as his High 6-A base despite the fact he has battled Antasma who is tier 2 in the Dream World both with and without Dreamy Luigi, and now you're telling me he should be Low 2-C?

Can somebody better explain this to me?

i only put high 6-a because thats what the wiki currently accepts as their base form tiering. i propose that dreamy luigi amp isnt that much stronger then marios base, but i said he should be low 2-c because base mario does have a multitude of arguments including that of this thread for scaling to tier 2, however the wiki doesnt currently rate them as so, so i cant make that claim.

its just we ran into a problem with the actual tiering of their base forms.

i would just say:

base mario: low 2-c

dreamy luigi empowerement: low 2-c

dreamy luigi: low 2-c, 2-b when giant

my main point is the wiki doesnt have these characters at these tiers in base so i cannot make an accurate claim without downplaying one side of the coin.

 

[Foxthefox1000]

Basically Antasma has a blatant cosmic feat (4-A to Low 2-C depending on the person) in his canonically weakest form the characters absolutely should scale above.

However, base Mario is listed as High 6-A and there's a lot of scrutiny and conflict with going any higher than that at the moment, so being at all comparable or even superior to Antasma is a massive contradiction in the ratings.

Dreamy Luigi empowering Mario is mechanically a rather insignificant boost. At absolute best it's a 2x amplifier since all it really does is add Luigi's stats onto Mario's (and Luigi is physically weaker), and as said in the OP, Mario can fight Antasma without Dreamy Luigi regardless, proving the point that the amp isn't that significant.

So the amped Mario is only a slightly stronger Base Mario tier, while Giant Dreamy Luigi DOES scale to the Zeekeeper. And Antasma is currently a wrench in the system we will have to sort out.

 

[AlloyAmi]

dreams are currently accepted as low 2-c on the wiki so its just outright low 2-c not even 4-a.

 

[Foxthefox1000]

This is where we do the epic profile split specifically for M&L Mario so we can have a Low 2-C Mario on the wiki tbh

 

[JPTheGamer]

i only put high 6-a because thats what the wiki currently accepts as their base form tiering. i propose that dreamy luigi amp isnt that much stronger then marios base, but i said he should be low 2-c because base mario does have a multitude of arguments including that of this thread for scaling to tier 2, however the wiki doesnt currently rate them as so, so i cant make that claim.

its just we ran into a problem with the actual tiering of their base forms.

i would just say:

base mario: low 2-c

dreamy luigi empowerement: low 2-c

dreamy luigi: low 2-c, 2-b when giant

my main point is the wiki doesnt have these characters at these tiers in base so i cannot make an accurate claim without downplaying one side of the coin.

Basically Antasma has a blatant cosmic feat (4-A to Low 2-C depending on the person) in his canonically weakest form the characters absolutely should scale above.

However, base Mario is listed as High 6-A and there's a lot of scrutiny and conflict with going any higher than that at the moment, so being at all comparable or even superior to Antasma is a massive contradiction in the ratings.

Dreamy Luigi empowering Mario is mechanically a rather insignificant boost. At absolute best it's a 2x amplifier since all it really does is add Luigi's stats onto Mario's (and Luigi is physically weaker), and as said in the OP, Mario can fight Antasma without Dreamy Luigi regardless, proving the point that the amp isn't that significant.

So the amped Mario is only a slightly stronger Base Mario tier, while Giant Dreamy Luigi DOES scale to the Zeekeeper. And Antasma is currently a wrench in the system we will have to sort out.

dreams are currently accepted as low 2-c on the wiki so its just outright low 2-c not even 4-a.

Ooooooh... now I get it, I think.

 

[AlloyAmi]

Base Bowser is also treated as a way higher threat then real world Antasma who does the low 2-c feat:

Dreambert says he can handle antasma, but without mario he cannot handle bowser at all and it would be better to just retreat entirely.

 

[Zyurtunder13]

Base Bowser is also treated as a way higher threat then real world Antasma who does the low 2-c feat:

Dreambert says he can handle antasma, but without mario he cannot handle bowser at all and it would be better to just retreat entirely.

I see

 

[Foxthefox1000]

Someone should probably call some mods in or something

 

[Speedblitzer50]

Bump

 

[Speedblitzer50]

Bump

 

[Speedblitzer50]

Bump

 

[Speedblitzer50]

Bump

 

[Speedblitzer50]

Bump

 

[Speedblitzer50]

Bump?

 

[Imaginym]

Seems reasonable at first, but Luiginoids are more or less the same context of Naruto using Shadow Clone Jutsu. Though, that does not take away context of proposal, but individually shouldn't be too much lower. And proposals having a decent placeholder seems fine.

Though, Low 2-C scaling is for another day, and absolutely up to 2-B via Power of Bonds is a real must though.

Presuming this approval still holds true following the recent debate, then it has my approval, too.

i only put high 6-a because thats what the wiki currently accepts as their base form tiering. i propose that dreamy luigi amp isnt that much stronger then marios base, but i said he should be low 2-c because base mario does have a multitude of arguments including that of this thread for scaling to tier 2, however the wiki doesnt currently rate them as so, so i cant make that claim.

its just we ran into a problem with the actual tiering of their base forms.

i would just say:

base mario: low 2-c

dreamy luigi empowerement: low 2-c

dreamy luigi: low 2-c, 2-b when giant

my main point is the wiki doesnt have these characters at these tiers in base so i cannot make an accurate claim without downplaying one side of the coin.

Is that what the Opening Post is currently proposing? Or is this contingent on something else being the case?

From what I've read though, it does seem like the OP is pretty reasonable.
If any Knowledgeable Members, Supporters or Staff would argue otherwise, please do so; It's good to evaluate things thoroughly.

 

[AlloyAmi]

Is that what the Opening Post is currently proposing? Or is this contingent on something else being the case?

From what I've read though, it does seem like the OP is pretty reasonable.
If any Knowledgeable Members, Supporters or Staff would argue otherwise, please do so; It's good to evaluate things thoroughly.

2-B is absolutely being removed from their base scaling and should only apply to giant dreamy luigi and antasma with the dark stone.

The only issue is tiering antasma because he casually does a low 2-c feat in the real world and mario & luigi are far stronger. However the site doesn't current scale to bros that high so would it only be listed on antasmas page? The issue lies on how this would fundamentally ignore how the bros are intended to be much stronger and how they even defeat him with their base scaling at his peak.

I am not currently proposing low 2-c base (though it would be more accurate and i do actually agree with that rating) cuz that would lead to a much greater argument with a tons of things to also bring up to support it and address other things, which I ultimately do not want to do in this thread, and I mostly want to fix dream team scaling in specific. to my realization this would also lead to fundamentally ignoring a feat.

 

[Mephistus]

I'd like for the profile to explain that Antasma literally absorbs the power and energy of the whole dreams he noms for the normies.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I'd like for the profile to explain that Antasma literally absorbs the power and energy of the whole dreams he noms for the normies.

Antasma is basically Anti-Monitor in that regard yeah.

 

[OrangeFR]

This looks really solid, genuinely can’t think of anything that could possibly go against this revision. The LOW 2-C BASE MARIO, THE LOW 2-C BASE MARIO IS REAL!