New AP justification for Super 17 (GT) REBUNK from the previous rejected thread.

[Ruphas_Mafahl123]

Hello. I'm here to propose a new AP rating justification for Super 17, the evidences are in this previous thread:

New AP justification for Android 17 and Super 17 (Dragon Ball GT)

Hello, well. I'm actually very surprised as of how no one ever did notice this feat. Anyways, the main aim of this thread is to add a new feat for the Dragon Ball GT continuity. Let's start off by the fact that in the episodie 42 of Dragon Ball GT, both, Hellfighter 17 and regular 17 power up...

vsbattles.com

Altho, it got rejected becouse people interpreted it as just "portal opening" and didn't quite understand the further implications of it.


For starters, it's not just portal opening, as after the portal was closed, Villians explicitly said that they could go back to the living world/Earth anytime.
So the portal thing was completely irrelevant for the characters to move freely from the otherworld to the living world, after the two merged.


And Shenron stated one of the reasons Shadow Dragons came to be, was after the two worlds have became one. All of this in the last episodie of GT, after the portal merging the two worlds was closed long ago. We can infer it's becouse the negative energy of Hell could still infect the living world and thus the Dragon Balls, as the two worlds were not spatially separated anymore. Again, all after the portal was closed.



Debunking possible counters:

A) "Hey, Dende did the same":

1. Nowhere it's implied Dende or Piccolo opened up a portal with their own power, but rather hax, unlike the two No.17 who literally powered up at the same time, and were explicitly stated to do so.

2. Dende's portal opening was never stated to merge the two realms and then becoming one, nor far reaching consequences as the DBs getting affected, nor villians coming back to life, etc. If what the two Androids did was just a portal opening, why didn't villians and other beings that were in hell revive one after another again when Piccolo and Dende opened up a portal, or constant world merging statements?. Basically nothing referencing the very rules of nature/the universe having been warped.










B) "Why couldn't Goku teleport himself to Earth if the living world was tied to the otherworld after the portal was closed?":

That's a horrible argument. Back in DBZ Goku could teleport himself from the otherworld to the Kaioshin realm, or from the Kaioshin realm to Earth, which is located waaaay farther than the Earth, as it's situated outside of the macrocosm.

Also, characters despite being good at ki sensing, can't sense the ki of someone else if it's very far from their location or if they do not know the exact location, despite both being located in the living world.

New Namek is a Great example of this.

And Enma Daio couldn't relocate Goku to the Earth becouse, first he doesn't have any juridistiction on the living world.
But, even if he could (As now the spatial barrier from both realms were merged in this case)..., he wouldn't, becouse the negative energy flowing between the living world and the otherworld after the merge rendered Enma Daio's powers null.









C) "Goku couldn't escape from hell" argument:

The villians who said they could get back, being weak characters doesn't disprove the fact that they may have some way of heading back to Earth.
Which again, is not only talking about general blue or Nappa, but all the Villians overall.
As the narrative implies that the portal was irrelevant for the villians to head back to Earth. Which again is consitent with the world merging statements.

Oh and just becouse "It doesn't make sense" that weak characters like Nappa and Blue could travel from hell to Earth in the merged continuum (along with other villians) it's a logical fallacy.

Dragon Ball GT has many things that don't make sense itself, so the point is moot.


Also, you'll have to quote the exact line where it says Goku can't travel between dimensions in GT anymore, somehow, without any official reason. Which was not stated elsewhere. This argument would fall under the line of "Headcanon".

Rules doesn't suddenly change unless explicitly stated.

Goku has a powered down version of IT due to his small body, AND even if he turned SSJ4 in search of Earth's location, he wouldn't succed as he has no idea of his friends's ki signture coordinates. He did much more impressive feats back in DBZ as teleporting back to the Kaioshin realm which is located outside the macrocosm.

If we are gonna say "everything changed", then Goku shouldn't have recognized who Kibito or the Elder Kai were, as he never should've teleported there willingly.







D) "The portals are the only way of escaping hell":

False: Goku got out from hell through teleportation back in the afterlife saga.

Even back in the early DBZ, after Goku fell in the snakeway. Goku escaped Hell by being put on trial by two ogres, Goz and Mez, after falling off Snake Way and into Hell. After winning a test of strength and speed, he was allowed to return to the "upper" world and continue his journey to King Kai. He used a stamina-enhancing fruit from Hell to quickly reach where he fell off of Snake Way, allowing him to continue his journey to King Kai.

And in GT Enma said he could get Goku back to Earth, so yeah, you can escape from hell without the need of using any portals.

HOWEVER: you could argue this was the case, ONLY after the two worlds merged, as the laws of nature were completely changed from upside down. Which would explain why Goku and co didn't simply fly throughout the whole merged continuum and the afterlife as their did back in DBZ, or teleport, as Goku didn't know the Earth's location and invisible pockets of negative energy were floating all around, reason why Enma couldn't move Goku back to Earth.







CONCLUSION:

The spatial boundaries of the living world and the other world were altered/shifted completely, they fused together. And thus this altogether makes up a 2-C feat.





(VOTES)

AGREE: Hasty12345, CastoriceTheFifth, Dagoth_OwO, Ednaxel2, AwkguyDB, UnoRebaixadO, Shar122, TegamiBachi25, Nami_Kami

​

DISAGREE:

 

[Hasty12345]

Agree

 

[Ruphas_Mafahl123]

Bump

 

[CastoriceTheFifth]

looks good

 

[Dagoth_OwO]

It's been a while since I last watched GT but I suppose this could work

 

[Ruphas_Mafahl123]

It's been a while since I last watched GT but I suppose this could work

Thanks for the input

 

[StarShooter80]

Seems good, it does clear up the context better than the previous thread

 

[AwkguyDB]

Agree

 

[UnoRebaixadO]

fair

 

[TegamiBachi25]

No one can beat him when he's Super 17!

Agreed

 

[Nami_Kami]

I agree they merged the worlds, but the point on how the villains can ''just return to Earth'' is a bit null given how Goku and Piccolo were stuck in Hell and couldn't escape. I think Gen Blue and Nappa just had no idea what they're talking about. Everything else is fine.

 

[Nami_Kami]

It's noteworthy King Kai notes the world have been attached even before the portal. Most of the villains all they got revived by the worlds merging and all lost their halos, which suggests the very laws of the Afterlife were altered.

The portal was clearly just a side effect of them attaching the worlds, not the entire feat itself.

 

[Shar122]

Looks blatant, I agree

 

[Ruphas_Mafahl123]

I agree they merged the worlds, but the point on how the villains can ''just return to Earth'' is a bit null given how Goku and Piccolo were stuck in Hell and couldn't escape. I think Gen Blue and Nappa just had no idea what they're talking about. Everything else is fine.

Goku not getting back doesn’t disprove the villains. IT needs an exact ki location, and the negative energy after the merger also made that impossible, even for Enma. Goku teleported from places outside the macrocosm such as the Kaioshin realm, so this wasn't The issue.

The villains, however, weren’t bound by IT—it implies they could’ve physically traveled through the merged continuum if not contained by Piccolo and the Hell employees. The line was deliberately written by the GT authors to show the barrier was gone, not to be contradicted.

Just becouse Goku doesn't know, doesn't mean others do not know how to get there. They are not Goku, they have their own ways.

Also, Goku was in different circumstances, he was in a hurry seeing how his friends were beaten up by Super 17, he is not the type of person to fly through across hell and the continuum to arrive Earth. Would be null aswell becouse he still wouldn't know Earth's exact location anyways...

So given he doesn't know the Earth's location and it's ki from that far, it's obviously much easier to travel through any other medium, such as an stronger type of teleportation or a portal as it happened later in the main series.

 

[Nami_Kami]

Goku not getting back doesn’t disprove the villains. IT needs an exact ki location, and the negative energy after the merger also made that impossible, even for Enma. The villains, however, weren’t bound by IT—it implies they could’ve physically traveled through the merged continuum if not contained by Piccolo and the Hell employees. The line was deliberately written by the GT authors to show the barrier was gone, not to be contradicted.

Just becouse Goku doesn't know, doesn't mean others do not know how to get there. They are not Goku, they have their own ways.

Also, Goku was in different circumstances, he was in a hurry seeing how his friends were beaten up by Super 17, he is not the type of person to fly through across hell and the continuum to arrive Earth. Would be null aswell becouse he still wouldn't know Earth's exact location anyways...

So given he doesn't know the Earth's location and it's ki from that far, it's obviously much easier to travel through any other medium, such as an stronger type of teleportation or a portal as it happened later in the main series.

The writers made it a point that Goku and Piccolo were stuck there and had no way out aside from portals, and even King Yemma said once in Hell there's no way out to Piccolo. I highly doubt randoms like General Blue and Nappa knew better than him. They could have simply been under the impression that the portal was still there, especially seeing them make their way to the exact place the portal was as they say that. And as far as I'm aware after the portal closed we never see a villain escape Hell.

Also suggesting General Blue and Metallitron can travel from Hell to Earth without portals seems a bit outlandish.

 

[Kazuma_kuwabara]

The writers made it a point that Goku and Piccolo were stuck there and had no way out aside from portals, and even King Yemma said once in Hell there's no way out to Piccolo. I highly doubt randoms like General Blue and Nappa knew better than him. They could have simply been under the impression that the portal was still there, especially seeing them make their way to the exact place the portal was as they say that. And as far as I'm aware after the portal closed we never see a villain escape Hell.

Also suggesting General Blue and Metallitron can travel from Hell to Earth without portals seems a bit outlandish.

How is the android 18 and 17 infinite stamina removal thread doing?

 

[Ruphas_Mafahl123]

The writers made it a point that Goku and Piccolo were stuck there and had no way out. Even King Yemma said once in Hell there's no way out to Piccolo, and I highly doubt randoms like General Blue and Nappa knew better than him.

Goku doesn't know how to lock into someone's Ki if he doesn't know their location.
Back in DBZ he could travel from spatially separeated dimensions such as the otherworld and the Kaioshin realm.

"There is no way out", yeah, obviously.

Becouse you are contained so you don't escape. But that doesn't mean it's 10/10 impossible.
Enma didn't known Dr Gero and Myuu could create portals to escape from hell, or kid Buu teleporting to the otherworld.....
If there was also no way out, Enma wouldn't be able to teleport Goku from Hell to Earth, but he was stated he could.

He couldn't becouse of the negative energy between the two realms, as I pointed out in the OP.


Not only were General Blue and Nappa in the picture, however. That's a moot point. The narrative was just suggesting that villians could head back by their own means to Earth as both realms were not spatially separeated anymore.

Just becouse Goku doesn't know, doesn't mean others can't. He's not some sort of Omnipotent being.

 

[Nami_Kami]

How is the android 18 and 17 infinite stamina removal thread doing?

Nobody's talking to you rn

 

[Kazuma_kuwabara]

Nobody's talking to you rn

https://media.**********.net/attachments/1050807049648353301/1410216875643637810/image.png?ex=68b0364f&is=68aee4cf&hm=eec1998be4b39fa7294426735d4ab2638fa20e8ed1f83d1a81e52644a9cd57ed&=&format=webp&quality=lossless&width=710&height=940

 

[CastoriceTheFifth]

Nobody's talking to you rn

I am fr

 

[Nami_Kami]

Goku doesn't know how to lock into someone's Ki if he doesn't know their location.
Back in DBZ he could travel from spatially separeated dimensions such as the otherworld and the Kaioshin realm.

"There is no way out", yeah, obviously.

Becouse you are contained so you don't escape. But that doesn't mean it's 10/10 impossible.
Enma didn't known Dr Gero and Myuu could create portals to escape from hell, or kid Buu teleporting to the otherworld.....
If there was also no way out, Enma wouldn't be able to teleport Goku from Hell to Earth, but he was stated he could.

He couldn't becouse of the negative energy between the two realms, as I pointed out in the OP.


Not only were General Blue and Nappa in the picture, however. That's a moot point. The narrative was just suggesting that villians could head back by their own means to Earth as both realms were not spatially separeated anymore.

Just becouse Goku doesn't know, doesn't mean others can't. He's not some sort of Omnipotent being.

Yes, in DBZ they could. In GT the rules have changed.

So basically you're saying King Enma doesn't know the exit, the writers had 10 different statements on how portals are the only way out of Hell, and yet randoms like Gen Blue and Nappa know how to escape and can travel from Hell to Earth?

 

[Ruphas_Mafahl123]

Yes, in DBZ they could. In GT the rules have changed.

So basically you're saying King Enma doesn't know the exit, the writers had 10 different statements on how portals are the only way out of Hell, and yet randoms like Gen Blue and Nappa know how to escape and can travel from Hell to Earth?

How do you know they can't travel between dimensions in GT?.
The dimensions weren't spatially separeated anymore. GT is a continuation of the DBZ Anime so...
Also Goku can't control IT as well as he could if he was in adult form.

Portals only way out of hell?

King Emma knows the exit, but you also implied it's impossible to escape hell, which is contradicting.

Goku and pikkon could get out of hell without any portal, so Goku after falling in the snake way.

Tell me, was he aware randoms like Myu and Gero could accomplish such a feat?.

Also, again, the text wasn't only talking about General Blue and Nappa, it was highlinting how the Villians in general had ways out.
But we can't also dismiss a consistent statement about Villians overall going back to Earth simply becouse the protagonist doesn't know how to do so.

The spatial walls between the dimensions were not separeated anymore so it makes sense.

 

[Ruphas_Mafahl123]

To debunk the whole, "Goku couldn't escape from hell" argument:

The villians who said they could get back, being weak characters doesn't disprove the fact that they may have some way of heading back to Earth.
Which again, is not only talking about general blue or Nappa, but all the Villians overall.
As the narrative implies that the portal was irrelevant for the villians to head back to Earth. Which again is consitent with the world merging statements.

Also, you'll have to quote the exact line where it says Goku can't travel between dimensions in GT anymore, somehow, without any official reason. Which was not stated elsewhere. And this this argument would fall under the line of "Headcanon". Rules doesn't suddenly change unless explicitly stated.

Oh and just becouse "It doesn't make sense" that weak characters like Nappa and Blue could travel from hell to Earth in the merged continuum (along with other villians) it's a logical fallacy.

Dragon Ball GT has many things that don't make sense itself, so the point is moot.

Goku has a powered down version of IT due to his small body, AND even if he turned SSJ4 in search of Earth's location, he wouldn't succed as he has no idea of his friends's ki signture coordinates. He did much more impressive feats back in DBZ as teleporting back to the Kaioshin realm which is located outside the macrocosm.

If we are gonna say "everything changed", then Goku shouldn't have recognized who Kibito or the Elder Kai were, as he never should've teleported there willingly.


"The portals are the only way of escaping hell"

False: Goku got out from hell through teleportation back in the afterlife saga.

In early DBZ, after Goku fell in the snakeway. Goku escaped Hell by being put on trial by two ogres, Goz and Mez, after falling off Snake Way and into Hell. After winning a test of strength and speed, he was allowed to return to the "upper" world and continue his journey to King Kai. He used a stamina-enhancing fruit from Hell to quickly reach where he fell off of Snake Way, allowing him to continue his journey to King Kai.


And in GT Enma said he could get Goku back to Earth, so yeah, you can escape from hell without the need of using any portals.

 

[Nami_Kami]

Also, again, the text wasn't only talking about General Blue and Nappa

It's unreliable villains making a statement directly contradicting King Enma. So it's a question of who is more reliable

The dimensions weren't spatially separeated anymore. GT is a continuation of the DBZ Anime so...
Goku and pikkon could get out of hell without any portal, so Goku after falling in the snake way.

False: Goku got out from hell through teleportation back in the afterlife saga.

You can't use Z era escape methods and claim they apply to GT since in GT the two 17s literally alter the very laws of the Afterlife by merging the world, thus there is no basis that you can escape or travel to Hell the same way you could in Z. If that was the case nothing stopped Goku and Piccolo from just flying through the Afterlife like Goku did with Pikkon, or going through King Enma's desk like he did in Z. It's very clear that these exits no longer exist by the Super 17 Saga, hence King Enma notes Piccolo cannot exit Hell.

As the narrative implies that the portal was irrelevant for the villians to head back to Earth

Or maybe the villains were just wrong and believed the portal was still open, given how Enma is more reliable than them and he implies escape is only possible via portals.

 

[Nami_Kami]

Since I agree with the premise of the thread this is my last response on the matter, unless you want to take it elsewhere.

 

[Ruphas_Mafahl123]

It's unreliable villains making a statement directly contradicting King Enma. So it's a question of who is more reliable

Enma is not All knowing. He didn't know Myu/Dr Gero, Goku, and others could get out of hell and the afterlife without any portal or whatsoever back in DBZ. But yeah, rules in GT where changed after the two space time continuums fused.

We can't call the villians unreliable as they were retained by Piccolo and co, so we can't really disprove they would've been able to leave hell.

You can't use Z era escape methods and claim they apply to GT since in GT the two 17s literally alter the very laws of the Afterlife by merging the world, thus there is no basis that you can escape or travel to Hell the same way you could in Z. If that was the case nothing stopped Goku and Piccolo from just flying through the Afterlife like Goku did with Pikkon, or going through King Enma's desk like he did in Z. It's very clear that these exits no longer exist by the Super 17 Saga, hence King Enma notes Piccolo cannot exit Hell.

That's right. I just said that to point out that the reason Goku couldn't move back to Earth was becouse of the World's merge and the power between both worlds blocking Enma's power, not becouse they dimensions were still spatially separeated, as Goku already traveles between multiple dimensions back in Z.

Altho some people still believe everything was just a portal, when that's false, becouse literally the merge changed the laws of nature such as death returning and pockets of negative energy affecting the DBs.

given how Enma is more reliable than them and he implies escape is only possible via portals.

That would be for the moment the worlds were merged, yeah, as we already agreed upon that there was some type of strange energy blocking Enma's powers.
Btw, in my case i would count the word of both, Villians and Enma. Since both are right in their own ways.

 

[Ruphas_Mafahl123]

Since I agree with the premise of the thread this is my last response on the matter, unless you want to take it elsewhere.

Fair.

 

[RedReaper616]

Hello. I'm here to propose a new AP rating justification for Super 17, the evidences are in this previous thread:

New AP justification for Android 17 and Super 17 (Dragon Ball GT)

Hello, well. I'm actually very surprised as of how no one ever did notice this feat. Anyways, the main aim of this thread is to add a new feat for the Dragon Ball GT continuity. Let's start off by the fact that in the episodie 42 of Dragon Ball GT, both, Hellfighter 17 and regular 17 power up...

vsbattles.com

Altho, it got rejected becouse people interpreted it as just "portal opening" and didn't quite understand the further implications of it.


For starters, it's not just portal opening, as after the portal was closed, Villians explicitly said that they could go back to the living world/Earth anytime.
So the portal thing was completely irrelevant for the characters to move freely from the otherworld to the living world, after the two merged.

This isn't true. While the feat itself is valid (it's just a different version of what Buuhan did), the portal IS integral to going back to the Living World. It's very clear cut--Especially with the scene of Myuu and Gero. They specifically run away and close the portal behind them to prevent travel, and Frieza/Cell elected to stay behind to punish Goku as well as reap the reward of immortality (as once they leave, they stop being immortal). Additionally, this in itself is proof that once the gate closed mattering and the worlds were no longer one. If they were still one and could travel the worlds, they would have been immortal in the Living world still, like how they were in Fusion Reborn, because the Living World is also simultaneously the Otherworld. The reason why they're saying they can just go back is because they don't know the portal is gone. That's WHY they're returning to the spot Piccolo is--To get to the portal.

And Shenron stated one of the reasons Shadow Dragons came to be, was after the two worlds have became one. All of this in the last episodie of GT, after the portal merging the two worlds was closed long ago. We can infer it's becouse the negative energy of Hell could still infect the living world and thus the Dragon Balls, as the two worlds were not spatially separated anymore. Again, all after the portal was closed.

Actually, it's the vice versa. I remembered it that way too not too long ago, but apparently we're both wrong! The Portal happened because the Dragons themselves. The Dragon Balls essentailly granted the opportunity to the two 17's to use their power to break the dimensions of the Macrocosm and create a portal, as they (seemingly?) harnessed the emanating negative energy that affected the world. Piccolo and Dende, as a consequence, are doing the same thing when they open their portal. And the power of the Dragon Balls nullified Yemma's powers over reality, which are manipulation of the Afterlife's Laws. This is backed up by the GT Perfect Files, which describes the process as using "the 17's Sympathetic Power" in tandem to connect the worlds. While the translation is spotty, the intent is pretty clearly synchronicity/similarity between the energies, resonance. Which is mentioned pretty directly in the show. This same kind of resonance is echoed in the episodes Dende and Piccolo made a portal between the worlds. It's not hax, because they're (the 17's) specifically doing it with their raw power being funneled at the dimensional walls, ala Buuhan, but it's a two-sided affair they couldn't achieve alone.

Debunking possible counters:

A) "Hey, Dende did the same":

1. Nowhere it's implied Dende or Piccolo opened up a portal with their own power, but rather hax, unlike the two No.17 who literally powered up at the same time, and were explicitly stated to do so.

2. Dende's portal opening was never stated to merge the two realms and then becoming one, nor far reaching consequences as the DBs getting affected, nor villians coming back to life, etc. If what the two Androids did was just a portal opening, why didn't villians and other beings that were in hell revive one after another again when Piccolo and Dende opened up a portal, or constant world merging statements?. Basically nothing referencing the very rules of nature/the universe having been warped.

This IS true. It's not EXPLICITLY stated that they're doing the same thing, but that IS the implication you're supposed to get from the fact they also used Resonance. Additionally, Piccolo explicitly references what the 17's do to pull it off. However, there is a key difference. The 17's use their raw power to get the job done, however, as Piccolo explains, they shall use Concentration to Imitate what the 17's can do with Raw Power. Basically, while it's not said aloud, the implication is that Piccolo and Dende are using a more refined, "mind based" ("Fusion of the Minds") variant of the raw power-based feat the 17's do, and so isn't actually a point AGAINST the 17's feat. Different ways of achieving the same thing, one via strength, the other via "Concentration." There's also a pretty clear VISUAL difference between the two, as well.

B) "Why couldn't Goku teleport himself to Earth if the living world was tied to the otherworld after the portal was closed?":

...he wouldn't, becouse the negative energy flowing between the living world and the otherworld after the merge rendered Enma Daio's powers null.

This, (the block between world travel we see on Yemma's power affecting everything), is likely the case, yes. This is also likely the explanation as to why Goku could NOT travel the Dimensions, either. Dimensional Travel to the Living World, SPECIFICALLY, was blocked, on a Law Manip level. Notably, Yemma could send Piccolo from Heaven to Hell, but could not send Piccolo or Goku to the Living World. So both of those argumentative points are handled here/it does remain consistent. Of course, Goku doesn't TRY to teleport to begin with, but the clear implication is he cannot, and it's not only supported by the fact that Yemma's powers were blocked, but in the arc prior, the "force of evil" emanated by Baby's Revenge Death Ball warped the Instant Transmission Subspace. While the Revenge Death Ball's evil and Negative Karma aren't exactly the same, Negative Karma innately has potent evil properties (hence why it was capable of mind-warping, corrupting, and altering Nuova Shenron into a villain until Goku purified him with his Positive Karma). Meaning it's likely that it could replicate or achieve a similar affect on the IT Subspace regardless.

Snip

I talked about all this in the prior two responses. Basically, yes, it's a feat. It's not a perfect feat because of the fact it's specifically requiring two people and the Negative Energy of the Shadow Dragons to grant the opportunity, which notably cause reality warping effects to use their power, but as their power was literally the requirement to successfully harness the Negative Energy in the first place, it's a moot point/rides a thin line. However, given 17 literally states he has the "Power of Hell," (the Dimension) it's likely irrelevant and that he scales anyway. No, they could not travel at a whim without the portal. It was absolutely necessary. It's even stated that opening the Gates is what literally fuses the realms. (So no Portal, no Realm Fusion, and Dende-Piccolo's Portals temporarily created a Realm Fusion). Goku couldn't travel likely for the same reasons Yemma couldn't force travel across realms. Goku could escape Hell on his own if this block wasn't in place, but it's there, so you're right on it not being a valid counterargument.

At least, that is how I understand it from my covering of DBGT. So, to be clear, I agree...for a completely different set of reasons/argument.

 

[Ruphas_Mafahl123]

This isn't true. While the feat itself is valid (it's just a different version of what Buuhan did), the portal IS integral to going back to the Living World. It's very clear cut--Especially with the scene of Myuu and Gero. They specifically run away and close the portal behind them to prevent travel, and Frieza/Cell elected to stay behind to punish Goku as well as reap the reward of immortality (as once they leave, they stop being immortal). Additionally, this in itself is proof that once the gate closed mattering and the worlds were no longer one. If they were still one and could travel the worlds, they would have been immortal in the Living world still, like how they were in Fusion Reborn, because the Living World is also simultaneously the Otherworld. The reason why they're saying they can just go back is because they don't know the portal is gone. That's WHY they're returning to the spot Piccolo is--To get to the portal.

Actually, it's the vice versa. I remembered it that way too not too long ago, but apparently we're both wrong! The Portal happened because the Dragons themselves. The Dragon Balls essentailly granted the opportunity to the two 17's to use their power to break the dimensions of the Macrocosm and create a portal, as they (seemingly?) harnessed the emanating negative energy that affected the world. Piccolo and Dende, as a consequence, are doing the same thing when they open their portal. And the power of the Dragon Balls nullified Yemma's powers over reality, which are manipulation of the Afterlife's Laws. This is backed up by the GT Perfect Files, which describes the process as using "the 17's Sympathetic Power" in tandem to connect the worlds. While the translation is spotty, the intent is pretty clearly synchronicity/similarity between the energies, resonance. Which is mentioned pretty directly in the show. This same kind of resonance is echoed in the episodes Dende and Piccolo made a portal between the worlds. It's not hax, because they're (the 17's) specifically doing it with their raw power being funneled at the dimensional walls, ala Buuhan, but it's a two-sided affair they couldn't achieve alone.

This IS true. It's not EXPLICITLY stated that they're doing the same thing, but that IS the implication you're supposed to get from the fact they also used Resonance. Additionally, Piccolo explicitly references what the 17's do to pull it off. However, there is a key difference. The 17's use their raw power to get the job done, however, as Piccolo explains, they shall use Concentration to Imitate what the 17's can do with Raw Power. Basically, while it's not said aloud, the implication is that Piccolo and Dende are using a more refined, "mind based" ("Fusion of the Minds") variant of the raw power-based feat the 17's do, and so isn't actually a point AGAINST the 17's feat. Different ways of achieving the same thing, one via strength, the other via "Concentration." There's also a pretty clear VISUAL difference between the two, as well.

This, (the block between world travel we see on Yemma's power affecting everything), is likely the case, yes. This is also likely the explanation as to why Goku could NOT travel the Dimensions, either. Dimensional Travel to the Living World, SPECIFICALLY, was blocked, on a Law Manip level. Notably, Yemma could send Piccolo from Heaven to Hell, but could not send Piccolo or Goku to the Living World. So both of those argumentative points are handled here/it does remain consistent. Of course, Goku doesn't TRY to teleport to begin with, but the clear implication is he cannot, and it's not only supported by the fact that Yemma's powers were blocked, but in the arc prior, the "force of evil" emanated by Baby's Revenge Death Ball warped the Instant Transmission Subspace. While the Revenge Death Ball's evil and Negative Karma aren't exactly the same, Negative Karma innately has potent evil properties (hence why it was capable of mind-warping, corrupting, and altering Nuova Shenron into a villain until Goku purified him with his Positive Karma). Meaning it's likely that it could replicate or achieve a similar affect on the IT Subspace regardless.

I talked about all this in the prior two responses. Basically, yes, it's a feat. It's not a perfect feat because of the fact it's specifically requiring two people and the Negative Energy of the Shadow Dragons to grant the opportunity, which notably cause reality warping effects to use their power, but as their power was literally the requirement to successfully harness the Negative Energy in the first place, it's a moot point/rides a thin line. However, given 17 literally states he has the "Power of Hell," (the Dimension) it's likely irrelevant and that he scales anyway. No, they could not travel at a whim without the portal. It was absolutely necessary. It's even stated that opening the Gates is what literally fuses the realms. (So no Portal, no Realm Fusion, and Dende-Piccolo's Portals temporarily created a Realm Fusion). Goku couldn't travel likely for the same reasons Yemma couldn't force travel across realms. Goku could escape Hell on his own if this block wasn't in place, but it's there, so you're right on it not being a valid counterargument.

At least, that is how I understand it from my covering of DBGT. So, to be clear, I agree...for a completely different set of reasons/argument.

Ok, so lemme understand...

In short, you are saying u agree.

That both 17s did in fact fuse the two worlds briefly, but in small scale, and as it was done by their own power, so the feat does still qualify and it's a smaller version than what Buuhan did?


Tho, one can't argue it was a mere portal, becouse it literally warped the laws of the afterlife for quite some time, reviving beings from hell and realising pockets of negative energy between the living realm and the otherworld as i already pointed out previously.

 

[RedReaper616]

Ok, so lemme understand...

In short, you are saying u agree.

That both 17s did in fact fuse the two worlds briefly, but in small scale, and as it was done by their own power, so the feat does still qualify and it's a smaller version than what Buuhan did?

Yes!

Tho, one can't argue it was a mere portal, becouse it literally warped the laws of the afterlife for quite some time, reviving beings from hell and realising pockets of negative energy between the living realm and the otherworld as i already pointed out previously.

Essentially.

 

[Ruphas_Mafahl123]

Yes!

Essentially.

I see. So just in case, do you recommend me to update the OP's arguments with the recent conclusion we've already discussed here?

 

[RedReaper616]

Correct.

 

[TegamiBachi25]

Yes!

Essentially.

Wait, does that mean Hell Fighter 17 and Toei 17 are just weaker than Toei buuhan, even though everyone from GT is meant to upscale from Buuhan's feat?

 

[Ruphas_Mafahl123]

Wait, does that mean Hell Fighter 17 and Toei 17 are just weaker than Toei buuhan, even though everyone from GT is meant to upscale from Buuhan's feat?

They are not weaker, they simply performed a weaker feat, but said feat it's still 2-C.

Individually both are stronger than base Vegeta, who in turn is much above Kid Buu.

 

[RedReaper616]

Wait, does that mean Hell Fighter 17 and Toei 17 are just weaker than Toei buuhan, even though everyone from GT is meant to upscale from Buuhan's feat?

No, it’s…

They are not weaker, they simply performed a weaker feat, but said feat it's still 2-C.

Individually both are stronger than base Vegeta, who in turn is much above Kid Buu.

…This, right here. It’s a supportive feat for 2-C scaling, not an overwrite. It’s basically here to say that GT has more 2-C Proof, even if it’s a weaker feat.

 

[Ruphas_Mafahl123]

right here. It’s a supportive feat for 2-C scaling, not an overwrite. It’s basically here to say that GT

I mean, GT is a solid 2-C terrain, we also got the Omega Shenron feat, and now the two 17's feat potentially aswell.
On the contrary, DBS only has one 2-C feat, and that's the one in BOG, atleast for the Anime.

Tho, saying the DBZ movies like fusion reborn are 2-C is an strecht.

Janemba had 2-C reality warping, true, but we don't know if that translates to power.

I would say movies cap at High 3-A, 3-A if the Toei Universe wasn't Infinite.

 

[RedReaper616]

I mean, GT is a solid 2-C terrain, we also got the Omega Shenron feat, and now the two 17's feat potentially aswell.
On the contrary, DBS only has one 2-C feat, and that's the one in BOG, atleast for the Anime.

Tho, saying the DBZ movies like fusion reborn are 2-C is an strecht.

Janemba had 2-C reality warping, true, but we don't know if that translates to power.

I would say movies cap at High 3-A, 3-A if the Toei Universe wasn't Infinite.

Fusion Reborn is 2-C because Gogeta's Birth had power comparable to that of the Creation of the Macrocosm (which is made up of multiple universe size spaces with their own space-times)/"The Big Bang." Also, this second bit isn't particularly relevant to power output exactly, but it also could be felt across dimensions.

Additionally, DBS has another 2-C feat. The DoSL moment only happens because Universe 7 "can't handle the power" of the clashing Saiyans and basically was the Universe's emergency BFR failsafe to keep itself from being destroyed by Gogeta and Broly. Then they shattered the DoSL and are sent back to the Living World. Outside of that it has multiple 2-C feats from Zeno deleting Universes, and the Low 1-C feat of Zeno destroying the Timeline. Though, no one scales to Zeno feats.

 

[Ruphas_Mafahl123]

Fusion Reborn is 2-C because Gogeta's Birth had power comparable to that of the Creation of the Macrocosm (which is made up of multiple universe size spaces with their own space-times)/"The Big Bang." Also, this second bit isn't particularly relevant to power output exactly, but it also could be felt across dimensions.

Additionally, DBS has another 2-C feat. The DoSL moment only happens because Universe 7 "can't handle the power" of the clashing Saiyans and basically was the Universe's emergency BFR failsafe to keep itself from being destroyed by Gogeta and Broly. Then they shattered the DoSL and are sent back to the Living World. Outside of that it has multiple 2-C feats from Zeno deleting Universes, and the Low 1-C feat of Zeno destroying the Timeline. Though, no one scales to Zeno feats.

So ig they are more or less equal in that regard I suppose. I forgot about the DoSL feat completely.
And yeah I obviously remembered Zeno, tho I didn't mention him becouse he's DBS's top dog.

Tho ig kid Buu upscales from Janemba and Gogeta aswell given the movie was set during the Buu saga before the Majin Buu battle.

 

[Apex_Predator_GX]

OP looks fine to me.

 

[Anonymous_Learner]

agree