Sonic downgrades: Babylon’s Fraud

[JJSliderman]

So, this is kind of embarrassing as the guy who initially pushed this upgrade, but I went back to check the scans for High 3-A Babylon Garden, and turns out there’s a big fat “思えた”, which roughly translates to “it seemed to”. So the quote is actually moreso “it seemed to expand into infinite nothingness”, aka just speculation. Moreover, the feat isn’t even really a feat, the guardian doesn’t warp anything so much as he changes the nature of a hologram.

EDIT: The statement appears to be fine, but Babylon Guardian scaling to it is not. That said, an alternative scaling method exists in the form of Master Core, who not only consumed all of Babylon Garden in a black hole, but actively merged with its engine and became the new source powering Babylon Garden, meaning he would also be powering the systems that enabled the Babylonian treasure vault to exist. That said, it’s not clear if this dimension is still actively being powered by the time of Zero Gravity, as its purpose has been fulfilled. Hence, while characters in Sonic Riders 1 lose their high 3-A status, Zero Gravity characters and onward can have a “possibly High 3-A” attached to their ratings to account for the potential Master Core scaling.

An alternate argument was raised that the changes in the visual scope of the digital dimension are tangible and not just fake hologram visuals, so Babylon Guardian may be able to keep a possibly High 3-A via some non combat applicable reality alteration.

Agree:

Disagree:

Neutral:

 

[ShakeResounding]

... Just double check the kanji next time, please.

Downgrade to 3-C seems fine to me.

 

[McFriesGuy075]

Did we not have an accepted 3-B feat from Master Core: ABIS? It's in this CRT.

Galactic Gizoid, Master Core: ABIS + Eggman Shuffle Leftovers

3-C Ultimate Emerl: Ultimate Emerl currently scales to the value of the 4-A Final Egg Blaster (465.36463094381646829516462257912 ExaFoe), due to having absorbed its power. One thing we failed to account for, however, is that Emerl also had all 7 Chaos Emeralds on him at this time, which means...

vsbattles.com

 

[AlloyAmi]

this feat has always confused me as being a feat because we see its just a looping hologram tube as it in like the boss fight and free mode but yeah i agree with its removal.

 

[JJSliderman]

Did we not have an accepted 3-B feat from Master Core: ABIS? It's in this CRT.

Galactic Gizoid, Master Core: ABIS + Eggman Shuffle Leftovers

3-C Ultimate Emerl: Ultimate Emerl currently scales to the value of the 4-A Final Egg Blaster (465.36463094381646829516462257912 ExaFoe), due to having absorbed its power. One thing we failed to account for, however, is that Emerl also had all 7 Chaos Emeralds on him at this time, which means...

vsbattles.com

I wasn’t sure if that was accepted or not, if so then, it can be 3-C to 3-B for Riders-pre Secret Rings.

 

[Causalist]

Did we not have an accepted 3-B feat from Master Core: ABIS? It's in this CRT.

Galactic Gizoid, Master Core: ABIS + Eggman Shuffle Leftovers

3-C Ultimate Emerl: Ultimate Emerl currently scales to the value of the 4-A Final Egg Blaster (465.36463094381646829516462257912 ExaFoe), due to having absorbed its power. One thing we failed to account for, however, is that Emerl also had all 7 Chaos Emeralds on him at this time, which means...

vsbattles.com

The feat seems 3-B, but Meph calced it high into 3-C.

 

[McFriesGuy075]

The feat seems 3-B, but Meph calced it high into 3-C.

3-C? We see 2 galaxies distant from themselves being moved around.

 

[Theuser789]

This is why it's good to check. I still think a possibly is fine, though.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I Agree with Shake.

 

[ShakeResounding]

The feat seems 3-B, but Meph calced it high into 3-C.

Got the calc on-hand?

 

[JJSliderman]

This is why it's good to check. I still think a possibly is fine, though.

If there was something else maybe, but it is just the one statement that isn’t even confirming infinite space, just what “seems to be”, so I’d rather just nix it.

I might also check out the clip for digital circuit to see if that holds up.

 

[JJSliderman]

Got the calc on-hand?

About 8x below baseline MG

 

[Executor_N0]

?

そこは無限に広がる何もない世界･･･に思えたが、突如として何者かの叫び声が響き渡る。
That was a world of nothingness that spreads into infinite... or so it seemed, but all of a sudden, someone's cries echo throughout.

Okay, first of all, just because someone uses "思える" doesn't mean that the statement is a pure speculation without any basis and that should be disregarded. Most statements about something impressive often come with such qualifiers, symbolizing something that might be too much to be true, but not necessarily a lie, just that there could be more to it. Generally, it would at least indicate that it could be a "possible" ranting, but that line isn't even talking about the size thing.

"思える" is what means "it appears to be", but what is said here is "思えたが" which adds the "が" particle that means to contrast; it's a "but" that gets explained by the following line, which is "all of a sudden, someone's cries echo throughout".

The line isn't discussing that the world spreading to infinity is a possibility, but that it being a "world with nothing inside it" (何もない世界) was an early possibility, but all of a sudden, a sound seemed to imply that there was something out there. It could just mean "We thought this was an infinite empty world, but since there are sounds, it might not be empty after all".

 

[StarShooter80]

Honestly I can relate to contradicting an old proposal I’ve made with a new one, I’ve done that a few times lol.

I’ll stay neutral for now considering what Executor outlined just now.

 

[ShakeResounding]

With what Executor said, I am switching to neutral.

@Executor_N0 If you don't mind giving another response, what is your opinion on the attempt to use it as a High 3-A feat?

 

[Theuser789]

Switching to full disagree based on what Executor said.

 

[McFriesGuy075]

Well, that clears up the misconception, disagreed based on Executor's translation.

 

[Omegabronic]

If there was something else maybe, but it is just the one statement that isn’t even confirming infinite space, just what “seems to be”, so I’d rather just nix it.

I might also check out the clip for digital circuit to see if that holds up.

Cyber Spaces are already accepted as Infinite... why would this one statement that support that make this one in specifically be downgraded?

 

[JJSliderman]

Cyber Spaces are already accepted as Infinite... why would this one statement that support that make this one in specifically be downgraded?

All cyberspaces are not universally infinite, it’s really just the united federation one, debatably Eggnet via intelligence scaling Eggman being able to make infinite space (since the quote isn’t there in Mad Matrix iirc), and the Ancients cyberspace because it contains those and has its own statements. Babylon Garden is completely disconnected.

 

[Executor_N0]

@Executor_N0 If you don't mind giving another response, what is your opinion on the attempt to use it as a High 3-A feat?

I have no opinion on tiers.

 

[JJSliderman]

Babylon Guardian still shouldn’t be a feat, he’s just changing the visuals of a hologram. Master Core probably presents a stronger case, as he’s described as the engine unit powering Babylon Garden, but in context of the game it might moreso be referring to its starship travel capabilities rather than the tech dimension.

 

[JJSliderman]

That said maybe I can just rework the premise.


Babylon Guardian and all the characters pre-ZG still become galaxy level, while the ZG cast becomes Galaxy, possibly high universe level.

I remember in the NiGHTS thread people noted it wasn’t a good idea to use Riders scaling for characters not involved in the story so this was sort of necessary anyway, I think.

 

[Dark_Soul20189]

The downgrade looks good. While the "It seems to be" is not an instant debunk to the previous tier. The context of it, and the fact that it is the only thing the rating is based on, it would feel much safer to just nuke it.

But if enough people want it, we could go with a "possible" rating.

 

[JJSliderman]

The downgrade looks good. While the "It seems to be" is not an instant debunk to the previous tier. The context of it, and the fact that it is the only thing the rating is based on, it would feel much safer to just nuke it.

But if enough people want it, we could go with a "possible" rating.

An alternate translation came in and talked about the idea of the realm’s infinite size not being questioned, rather its emptiness.

Babylon Guardian should still have its scaling nuked so now the focus of the thread is if scaling is still possible, through Master Core.

 

[Omegabronic]

Babylon Guardian still shouldn’t be a feat, he’s just changing the visuals of a hologram.

It is a Cyber Space... not a hologram

 

[Omegabronic]

All cyberspaces are not universally infinite, it’s really just the united federation one, debatably Eggnet via intelligence scaling Eggman being able to make infinite space (since the quote isn’t there in Mad Matrix iirc), and the Ancients cyberspace because it contains those and has its own statements. Babylon Garden is completely disconnected.

If you want to argue the same type of Dimension of a acknowledged highly advanced civilization... then you must shown evidence to prove this

 

[JJSliderman]

It is a Cyber Space... not a hologram

Okay but the entire realm pretty much glitches out like a hologram, it’s pretty much confirmed the Guardian is itself a hologram.

And cyber spaces aren’t like a specific type of reality with general size similarities like dreams, they’re a lot more limited.

 

[Cropfist]

I agree with the downgrade, this one statement does not seem solid enough.

 

[Out'o'Sound]

Okay but the entire realm pretty much glitches out like a hologram, it’s pretty much confirmed the Guardian is itself a hologram.

And cyber spaces aren’t like a specific type of reality with general size similarities like dreams, they’re a lot more limited.

I don't know how much this might affect the discussion, but the two alternate versions (Hell & Heaven) of the digital dimension are considered "worlds" of their own, not to mention that the characters are able to interact and be affected by elements from both worlds of the digital dimension, wouldn't that make them something more than just holograms?


Also, the dimension having glitches is not a convincing argument, after all we are talking about a digital dimension, whether we like it or not it will have elements like glitches or bugs, especially when the one who controls the dimension is affected/harmed.

 

[Out'o'Sound]

Also, yeah I disagree for now

 

[Omegabronic]

Okay but the entire realm pretty much glitches out like a hologram, it’s pretty much confirmed the Guardian is itself a hologram.

IT glitches cause it is a Cyber Reality, aka, it is Data, it doesn't mean it is "false" holograms or anything like that, the Guardian itself being that is also irrelevant to the reality itself which is very much real given that people can physically go to it

also If you listen/read carefully to 2 of the the albums in the cosmology page; Doom/Shadow/Espio/Omega refer to Digital Circuit/Mad Matrix as Sekai. A guidebook uses the same thing about Riders' Digital Dimension. Sekai means world as in society, planet or universe. The 1st 2 definitions don't make sense in this cases leaving the 3rd one. So yeah, it is another Digital Universe

And cyber spaces aren’t like a specific type of reality with general size similarities like dreams, they’re a lot more limited.

Prove this? If you want to affirm such a thing, you need evidence to back it up, there has literally nothing that separates Digital Dimension from the other Cyber Spaces, specially when they are all referred to identically by both characters and guides

 

[Starsprite53]

IT glitches cause it is a Cyber Reality, aka, it is Data, it doesn't mean it is "false" holograms or anything like that, the Guardian itself being that is also irrelevant to the reality itself which is very much real given that people can physically go to it

also If you listen/read carefully to 2 of the the albums in the cosmology page; Doom/Shadow/Espio/Omega refer to Digital Circuit/Mad Matrix as Sekai. A guidebook uses the same thing about Riders' Digital Dimension. Sekai means world as in society, planet or universe. The 1st 2 definitions don't make sense in this cases leaving the 3rd one. So yeah, it is another Digital Universe

They are holograms, judging by the translation:

When damage is inflicted on the guardian,
the Babylon Guardian’s true electronic circuit passageways are revealed.

If it isn't enough, we actually see how the course changes, from heaven/hell setting to the original electronic circuit shape, they're textures/hologram, the walls and ceileing become remnicent of a hell, and demon statues become just random stones.
And it's literally called a false world. It's like a hell because it will scare and rapel intruders.

It is a false world, created by the guardian who protects the treasure to block intruders.

Obviously you can can physically enter it because it's a room/space/dimension after all. Pretty much like any hologramic room.

also If you listen/read carefully to 2 of the the albums in the cosmology page; Doom/Shadow/Espio/Omega refer to Digital Circuit/Mad Matrix as Sekai. A guidebook uses the same thing about Riders' Digital Dimension. Sekai means world as in society, planet or universe. The 1st 2 definitions don't make sense in this cases leaving the 3rd one. So yeah, it is another Digital Universe

You added nothing here really, it's basically like our definition of the word world. Plus this exact same argument has been used before in past threads but refused, because it's basically false dichotomy. (Plus the size doesn't really matter, it's irrelevent as The guardian just creates the circuit and manipulates the hologram/fake background stuff, plus no reason to scale it to physicals anyways)

Prove this? If you want to affirm such a thing, you need evidence to back it up, there has literally nothing that separates Digital Dimension from the other Cyber Spaces, specially when they are all referred to identically by both characters and guides

You're shifting the burden of proof on JJ, you started with the claim, you prove it.
Just because nothing is explicitly said to separate Digital Dimension from the other Cyberspaces doesn’t mean they’re the same. Lack of evidence ≠ evidence of lack.
Sonic media reuses terms loosely all the time, context is what shows functional differences.

 

[JJSliderman]

My hangup isn’t about the dimension being infinite size or real, those are fine, the guardian warping it just isn’t really a feat I’d say because he just changed the scenery. The same obstacles that appear on the track in the Guardian’s normal version appear in the electronic version, just with different textures.

 

[Omegabronic]

They are holograms, judging by the translation:

It is a Digital Dimension/Cyber Space... This stuff is basic, it the same deal with the Cyber Spaces in Shadow's game, and any other we saw in the series, everything there is Data as that is how Cyber Dimensions work

If it isn't enough, we actually see how the course changes, from heaven/hell setting to the original electronic circuit shape, they're textures/hologram, the walls and ceileing become remnicent of a hell, and demon statues become just random stones.

I dunno what you were trying to link... but i don't see what you mean, the effect on screen pherhaps? That is... normal for Cyber Spaces, Frontier's, Shadow's, Eggnet's, etc, all use similar effects... they are in a cyberspace, proving that it is Data is not an argument against anything as they are still real places/Universes, so it is still scalable

And it's literally called a false world. It's like a hell because it will scare and rapel intruders.

When? Also... you are focusing on the Hell part and not the feat itself of significantly affecting all of the infinite space because?

Obviously you can can physically enter it because it's a room/space/dimension after all. Pretty much like any hologramic room.

Unless you are saying that Babylon Garden, and thus Sonic's Earth, is infinite in size... then no, you are very much downplaying it

specially when it is said to be another "Sekai" in the same vain as any of the other Cyber Dimensions we saw in the series

also If you listen/read carefully to 2 of the the albums in the cosmology page; Doom/Shadow/Espio/Omega refer to Digital Circuit/Mad Matrix as Sekai. A guidebook uses the same thing about Riders' Digital Dimension. Sekai means world as in society, planet or universe. The 1st 2 definitions don't make sense in this cases leaving the 3rd one. So yeah, it is another Digital Universe

So yeah... you are trying to say it isn't another dimension/universe/world literally when everything says it is

You added nothing here really, it's basically like our definition of the word world. Plus this exact same argument has been used before in past threads but refused, because it's basically false dichotomy.

Whataboutism that doesn't even cover the actual argument being used is not convincing

If it only fits one definition in the Japanese language.... then that's what it is, cover that point else we can't really talk about it

(Plus the size doesn't really matter, it's irrelevent as The guardian just creates the circuit and manipulates the hologram/fake background stuff, plus no reason to scale it to physicals anyways)

You have yet to prove that it is fake, being data in a Digital Dimension that is shaped by it fundamentally doesn't mean it is fake

You're shifting the burden of proof on JJ, you started with the claim, you prove it.

No? he started it? he is the one with the possitive claim "This Cyber Space is different from all the others" so he needs to prove it, i don't need to prove a negative

Just because nothing is explicitly said to separate Digital Dimension from the other Cyberspaces doesn’t mean they’re the same.

If there is nothing saying they are different event ho they are the same type of dimension... why would we randomly assign them as different? Again, the burden is on the one who makes the positive claim, not me who is asking for said proof

Lack of evidence ≠ evidence of lack.
Sonic media reuses terms loosely all the time, context is what shows functional differences.

This is your opinion i guess... still not proof

My hangup isn’t about the dimension being infinite size or real, those are fine, the guardian warping it just isn’t really a feat I’d say because he just changed the scenery.

Aka it is significantly affect Infinite space, aka textbook High 3-A feat... CyberSpaces are made of data... have you even read the Cosmology page

The same obstacles that appear on the track in the Guardian’s normal version appear in the electronic version, just with different textures.

Aka, he is significantly affecting Infinite Space, all at once

 

[Out'o'Sound]

There are numerous instances where the scenario of one world does not correlate with that of the other.

A example is when we reach the end of the electronic circuit part and the ground literally disappears and the hell scenario appears, the characters even fall as a consequence of this, clearly there was a distortion in the space of the digital dimension, they are not holograms.

(At 1:12)

 

[LukeChaosBlobz]

Disagree FRA

 

[JJSliderman]

A example is when we reach the end of the electronic circuit part and the ground literally disappears and the hell scenario appears, the characters even fall as a consequence of this, clearly there was a distortion in the space of the digital dimension, they are not holograms.

(At 1:12)

Huh.

Well, I guess that at least proves the manipulation of the environment has a tangible effect on the design, or at the very least holograms are tangible. Maybe BG can stay as a “possibly” High 3-A? But I still don’t think it would scale to anything besides reality manipulation.

 

[Starsprite53]

It is a Digital Dimension/Cyber Space... This stuff is basic, it the same deal with the Cyber Spaces in Shadow's game, and any other we saw in the series, everything there is Data as that is how Cyber Dimensions work

Cool none of this disproves them being holograms, also "everything there is data" is something you made up, not sure why you are using retro cross-scaling.

I dunno what you were trying to link... but i don't see what you mean, the effect on screen pherhaps? That is... normal for Cyber Spaces, Frontier's, Shadow's, Eggnet's, etc, all use similar effects... they are in a cyberspace, proving that it is Data is not an argument against anything as they are still real places/Universes, so it is still scalable

It's not normal, it didn't happen in any of the examples you listed, the link literally showed how the hell circuit changed and removed and the true circuit form is revealed, you not getting it is a you problem and not my problem.

When? Also... you are focusing on the Hell part and not the feat itself of significantly affecting all of the infinite space because?

Prove it significantly affected the infinite space, because all we see is just the guardian creating the circuit and changing it's textures.

Unless you are saying that Babylon Garden, and thus Sonic's Earth, is infinite in size... then no, you are very much downplaying it

The problem is it's not really infinte but it's rather a figure of speech, since the statement was made from an observer point, it's the same deal as someone using the term infinite ocean (which is commonly used irl) or "these stairs never end", espacially when "extends into infinte" isn't really infinite but rather "keep going forever".

specially when it is said to be another "Sekai" in the same vain as any of the other Cyber Dimensions we saw in the series

Sekai is just a buzzword at this point.

So yeah... you are trying to say it isn't another dimension/universe/world literally when everything says it is

I mean, I can be supportive of it being another dimension, just not infinite.

If it only fits one definition in the Japanese language.... then that's what it is, cover that point else we can't really talk about it

There is no such a thing as one definition, a word can completely mean another thing depending on the context, contexual definition>>>

You have yet to prove that it is fake, being data in a Digital Dimension that is shaped by it fundamentally doesn't mean it is fake

Already did, visual evidence from the boss fight and stage showing how the circuit changes looks with holograms, espacially when you hit the guardian. And textual evidence from the scan calling it a "fake world". Plus prove it's fundamentally shaped by data.

No? he started it? he is the one with the possitive claim "This Cyber Space is different from all the others" so he needs to prove it, i don't need to prove a negative

No, you started mentioning cyberspaces and how they are relevent, yours is the positive claim, if anything JJ's is the negative one.
You implied that the digital dimension is the same as cyberspace from different games, you prove it.

If there is nothing saying they are different event ho they are the same type of dimension... why would we randomly assign them as different? Again, the burden is on the one who makes the positive claim, not me who is asking for said proof

Again Lack of evidence ≠ evidence of lack, espacially when those dimensions are created from DIFFERENT people with DIFFERENT TECHNOLOGIES.
You said they are the same, prove it, it is the positive claim.

This is your opinion i guess... still not proof

Yeah, you have no proof, thanks for admitting that.

Aka, he is significantly affecting Infinite Space, all at once

Prove it, also that's hax regardless.

 

[Starsprite53]

There are numerous instances where the scenario of one world does not correlate with that of the other.

the map already shows them occupying the same space.

A example is when we reach the end of the electronic circuit part and the ground literally disappears and the hell scenario appears, the characters even fall as a consequence of this, clearly there was a distortion in the space of the digital dimension, they are not holograms.

Idk what to tell you but having different ground levels is nothing crazy, here, here, here and here.
Also I don't understand this weird cherrypicking here, we quite see when the guardian got hit the hellish textures get removed and we see the true circuit.
We can see here the comparasion between the actual electronic circuit and the devil may cray mod from the guardian.

 

[Out'o'Sound]

the map already shows them occupying the same space.


Idk what to tell you but having different ground levels is nothing crazy, here, here, here and here.
Also I don't understand this weird cherrypicking here, we quite see when the guardian got hit the hellish textures get removed and we see the true circuit.
We can see here the comparasion between the actual electronic circuit and the devil may cray mod from the guardian.

My argument isn't even about that, the floor of the "true electronic circuit passageways" (so this is the default state of the digital dimension) literally disappears during the change of scenery, the space has clearly been distorted, and if you gonna try to argue teleportation, better have some evident proof of this, since we don't see any portal or any displacement of the characters (quite the opposite, we literally see them just appearing in the hell scenario).