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Star Wars Discussion Thread Canon/Legends- Episode VI Return of the Threadi

Hagane_no_Saiyajin said:
www.mediafire.com

Star Wars_ The Rise of Skywalker_ The Visual Dictionary_ -- Pablo Hidalgo, Chris Terrio -- First American edition, New York, 2019 -- DK Publishing -- 9781465479037 -- 0b243dbee3933d86520c96459757b63f -- Ann

MediaFire is a simple to use free service that lets you put all your photos, documents, music, and video in a single place so you can access them anywhere and share them everywhere.
www.mediafire.com

www.mediafire.com

MediaFire

MediaFire is a simple to use free service that lets you put all your photos, documents, music, and video in a single place so you can access them anywhere and share them everywhere.
www.mediafire.com www.mediafire.com
Click to expand...
An interesting thing about the Junior novel.

It explains how Vader read Luke's mind to find out about his sister. I was unsure if it was something from the Dark Side or standard mind reading.

But it was confirmed that it was the mind probe. So Vader seems to be able to use this without using his hand as a focus. Interesting.

Plus we have this, I wonder if anything can be taken from this.
Dazed, Luke looked up to see the lightning travelthrough Vader and the Emperor. A burst of high-energyphotons made Vader's own damaged skull briefly visiblethrough his armoured helmet.
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Phsccarvalho said:
It explains how Vader read Luke's mind to find out about his sister. I was unsure if it was something from the Dark Side or standard mind reading.

But it was confirmed that it was the mind probe. So Vader seems to be able to use this without using his hand as a focus. Interesting.
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I thought that like Vader felt Leia's presence and noticed that it was similar to Luke's, thus deducing that she was his sister, but I guess I was wrong. Although I have the Legends novelization in hand, I think I'll check for a point of comparison
 
Phsccarvalho said:
An interesting thing about the Junior novel.

It explains how Vader read Luke's mind to find out about his sister. I was unsure if it was something from the Dark Side or standard mind reading.

But it was confirmed that it was the mind probe. So Vader seems to be able to use this without using his hand as a focus. Interesting.
Click to expand...
Is there anything related to power scaling we can use?
 
Hagane_no_Saiyajin said:
I thought that like Vader felt Leia's presence and noticed that it was similar to Luke's, thus deducing that she was his sister, but I guess I was wrong. Although I have the Legends novelization in hand, I think I'll check for a point of comparison
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@Phsccarvalho here is what the Legends novelization says

“You cannot hide forever, Luke.”

“You’ll have to come in and get me,” replied the disembodied voice.

“I will not give you the advantage that easily.” Vader felt his intentions increasingly ambiguous in this conflict; the purity of his evil was being compromised. The boy was clever indeed—Vader knew he must move with extreme caution now.

“I wish no advantage, father. I will not fight you. Here … take my weapon.” Luke knew full well this might be his end, but so be it. He would not use Darkness to fight Darkness. Perhaps it would be left to Leia, after all, to carry on the struggle, without him. Perhaps she would know a way he didn’t know; perhaps she could find a path. For now, though, he could see only two paths, and one was into Darkness; and one was not.

Luke put his lightsaber on the ground, and rolled it along the floor toward Vader. It stopped halfway between them, in the middle of the low overhead area. The Dark Lord reached out his hand—Luke’s lightsaber jumped into it. He hooked it to his belt and, with grave uncertainty, entered the shadowy overhang.

He was picking up additional feelings from Luke, now, new crosscurrents of doubt. Remorse, regret, abandonment. Shades of pain. But somehow not directly related to Vader. To others, to … Endor. Ah, that was it—the Sanctuary Moon where his friends would soon die. Luke would learn soon enough: friendship was different on the dark side. A different thing altogether.

“Give yourself to the dark side, Luke,” he entreated. “It is the only way you can save your friends. Yes, your thoughts betray you, son. Your feelings for them are strong, especially for—”

Vader stopped. He sensed something.

Luke withdrew further into shadow. He tried to hide, but there was no way to hide what was in his mind—Leia was in pain. Her agony cried to him now, and his spirit cried with her. He tried to shut it out, to shut it up, but the cry was loud, and he couldn’t stifle it, couldn’t leave it alone, had to cradle it openly, to give it solace.

Vader’s consciousness invaded that private place.

“No!” screamed Luke.

Vader was incredulous. “Sister? Sister!” he bellowed. “Your feelings have now betrayed her, too … Twins!” he roared triumphantly. “Obi-Wan was wise to hide her, but now his failure is complete.” His smile was clear to Luke, through the mask, through the shadows, through all the realms of Darkness. “If you will not turn to the Dark Side, perhaps she will.”

This, then, was Luke’s breaking point. For Leia was everyone’s last unflagging hope. If Vader turned his twisted, misguided cravings on her…
 
Hagane_no_Saiyajin said:
@Phsccarvalho here is what the Legends novelization says

“You cannot hide forever, Luke.”

“You’ll have to come in and get me,” replied the disembodied voice.

“I will not give you the advantage that easily.” Vader felt his intentions increasingly ambiguous in this conflict; the purity of his evil was being compromised. The boy was clever indeed—Vader knew he must move with extreme caution now.

“I wish no advantage, father. I will not fight you. Here … take my weapon.” Luke knew full well this might be his end, but so be it. He would not use Darkness to fight Darkness. Perhaps it would be left to Leia, after all, to carry on the struggle, without him. Perhaps she would know a way he didn’t know; perhaps she could find a path. For now, though, he could see only two paths, and one was into Darkness; and one was not.

Luke put his lightsaber on the ground, and rolled it along the floor toward Vader. It stopped halfway between them, in the middle of the low overhead area. The Dark Lord reached out his hand—Luke’s lightsaber jumped into it. He hooked it to his belt and, with grave uncertainty, entered the shadowy overhang.

He was picking up additional feelings from Luke, now, new crosscurrents of doubt. Remorse, regret, abandonment. Shades of pain. But somehow not directly related to Vader. To others, to … Endor. Ah, that was it—the Sanctuary Moon where his friends would soon die. Luke would learn soon enough: friendship was different on the dark side. A different thing altogether.

“Give yourself to the dark side, Luke,” he entreated. “It is the only way you can save your friends. Yes, your thoughts betray you, son. Your feelings for them are strong, especially for—”

Vader stopped. He sensed something.

Luke withdrew further into shadow. He tried to hide, but there was no way to hide what was in his mind—Leia was in pain. Her agony cried to him now, and his spirit cried with her. He tried to shut it out, to shut it up, but the cry was loud, and he couldn’t stifle it, couldn’t leave it alone, had to cradle it openly, to give it solace.

Vader’s consciousness invaded that private place.

“No!” screamed Luke.

Vader was incredulous. “Sister? Sister!” he bellowed. “Your feelings have now betrayed her, too … Twins!” he roared triumphantly. “Obi-Wan was wise to hide her, but now his failure is complete.” His smile was clear to Luke, through the mask, through the shadows, through all the realms of Darkness. “If you will not turn to the Dark Side, perhaps she will.”

This, then, was Luke’s breaking point. For Leia was everyone’s last unflagging hope. If Vader turned his twisted, misguided cravings on her…
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@Phsccarvalho thoughts on this?
 
Hello, people, may the force be with yall

I already imagine the answer but how outdated are the profiles for Palpatine and Yoda? If "not so much" or "not at all" (by a miracle or an update I didn't know), I have a hot take and would like to get opinions
 
noninho said:
Hello, people, may the force be with yall

I already imagine the answer but how outdated are the profiles for Palpatine and Yoda? If "not so much" or "not at all" (by a miracle or an update I didn't know), I have a hot take and would like to get opinions
Click to expand...
Like all star wars profiles not named Luke Skywalker, ******* ANCIENT.
 
Welp
I intend on officializing it when the profiles are updated, but lemme ask yall something:
Ain't Yoda's L against Palpatine 95%+ because of the place where the battle went through?
Analyzing the battle I'm arguing that:
-we can see him slightly outmaneuvering him in swordplay (2:28)
-we can see him slightly outmaneuvering him in Force wielding (1:17* & 3:42; 2:04)
-we can see him easily tanking the shocks, although yes he felt it (0:46; 3:20)
-We have no basis that if it was Palpatine taking that fall he'd be 100% OK and keep fighting, nor that Yoda would fall back if not for that fall.
-Hell, we see more than once that Sidious is making way more effort than what he was expecting to and was genuinely out of his "nah I'd win" mindset!
-I've heard a bit about the novelization explaining that Yoda realized that he couldn't win in that situation, but this was due to Palpatine being able to get distance and being on the higher ground, because (in the movie) the moment we see Yoda losing his composure is when he's apparently dealing with the shocks and when he's about to fall, so if he's able to keep his combat up close, there's no opportunity to have this conclusion

TL;DR- a plain field with no falls, Yoda is 100% NOT taking that L. He felt that the gap was too big for him ATM when Palpatine got the high ground and we see that it wouldn't go well otherwise for the Sith Lord because of mid-fight elements and Palpatine's own vision in Clone Wars.

*[AND BRO WAS LEAVING (yes I'm using an edit mid-argument, f---it)]
 
noninho said:
-I've heard a bit about the novelization explaining that Yoda realized that he couldn't win in that situation, but this was due to Palpatine being able to get distance and being on the higher ground, because (in the movie) the moment we see Yoda losing his composure is when he's apparently dealing with the shocks and when he's about to fall, so if he's able to keep his combat up close, there's no opportunity to have this conclusion
Click to expand...
Which novel? Because there is the old Legends and the new (junior)

noninho said:
.
Click to expand...
We have some stronger statements in general.

The Jedi Master and the Sith Lord dueled in the Senate chamber, but Sidious was too strong for Yoda to defeat. The ancient Jedi was forced to flee, going into exile deep in the Outer Rim.
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In a desperate attempt to stop the Sith from gaining control of the galaxy, Yoda battled Palpatine in the Senate chamber. But the revealed Sith Lord was too strong for the former Jedi grandmaster. Yoda was forced to flee, going into exile on Dagobah.
Click to expand...
Darth Sidious overwhelmed Yoda with the destructive energy of the dark side, and the Jedi Master fled Coruscant.
Click to expand...
Yoda is eventually outmatched by Sidious. Beaten, Yoda retreats into a maintenance tunnel and is rescued by Bail Organa. The crestfallen Jedi Master realizes the Sith have won, and he must now go into exile.
Click to expand...

It seems to me that the intention is to demonstrate that Sidius was too strong in the Force, and that Yoda would lose anyway.
 
Phsccarvalho said:
Just post it in the review thread or on the wall. But don't do what you did last time when you posted a bunch of calculations. Send a maximum of three.
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If by review thread you mean the calculation evaluations thread, then I didn’t see any limit on the number of calculations you can post at a time
 
@Phsccarvalho I can't help but think that we're the only ones who really care enough about Star Wars on VS Battles Wiki, and even then all we're doing is try to give CPR. We need calc members to basically defibrillate it.
 
Hagane_no_Saiyajin said:
Because Thread Mods are not interested in Star Wars either to approve CRTs?
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Not really, because it's pretty easy to find thread moderators, especially with SW only having a pass for two deals in CRTs.

The thing is, the verse is almost dead, especially the canon.

Like, I'm the only one who did the recent canon CRTs. Although @ is planning a CRT for the Mandalorians.

To apply the calculations, you have to have knowledge of the character scaling chain (and maybe equipment), something I don't know well, so I wouldn't apply it.

Like, for the canon, we don't have many experienced supporters active at the moment. I don't know anyone in this thread who could apply this.
 
DaReaperMan said:
Only one not working on the big picture is me and I'm inconsistent.
Click to expand...
I think you could borrow some things from Starkiller's profile to justify some general powers of characters you like (Revan, Darth Nihilus). Since the scans and references are already on his profile.

It won't exactly be the best of them, but I think you could play around with it a bit in vsthreads.
 
Phsccarvalho said:
I think you could borrow some things from Starkiller's profile to justify some general powers of characters you like (Revan, Darth Nihilus). Since the scans and references are already on his profile.

It won't exactly be the best of them, but I think you could play around with it a bit in vsthreads.
Click to expand...
Since force page is taking an age, I might lol
 
Phsccarvalho said:
It seems to me that the intention is to demonstrate that Sidius was too strong in the Force, and that Yoda would lose anyway.
Click to expand...
None of the statements undermine the specific point that I made
In long-range and/or higher ground he could exert a power that Yoda at that point in life felt that he couldn't match. Fact, that's what your exerts talk about (and about the fact that he won)

But let's take it back from the perspective that I brought: a scenario where Palpatine can't get the high ground, can't get distance enough.
He was tagged when trying to roll away, he was, though, yes, slightly, overwhelmed by Yoda's swordplay, Yoda could easily tank the shocks (both on their actual fight and on a vision months before on the Clone Wars show) and can respond to it with the Force (that is how he ended the fight, and Palpatine flew as much as him, was just lucky that he had a grip), where he is better than Palpatine, again, not by much but he is.

If he was in touch with the force to the point that he could use it through the whole fight, why was he feeling through it that he couldn't win only on the point where he was dealing with those senate chairs and large distance? Because that was the scenario where he can't win, with both their fight and Palpatine's vision confirming that it was no problem for Yoda otherwise.
 
noninho said:
In long-range and/or higher ground he could exert a power that Yoda at that point in life felt that he couldn't match. Fact, that's what your exerts talk about (and about the fact that he won)
Click to expand...
None of the statements consider their positions on the battlefield as relevant, or even mentioned. Yoda vs. Palpatine is always stated as Palpatine being stronger than Yoda in the Force and defeating him, being too strong for Yoda.


noninho said:
If he was in touch with the force to the point that he could use it through the whole fight, why was he feeling through it that he couldn't win only on the point where he was dealing with those senate chairs and large distance? Because that was the scenario where he can't win, with both their fight and Palpatine's vision confirming that it was no problem for Yoda otherwise.
Click to expand...
If we just go by the visuals, yes, it seems that the scenario has some relevance to Palpatine's victory. But from the numerous statements, we are told directly that Palpatine is too strong for Yoda and that in another scenario this would not change.
 
Phsccarvalho said:
None of the statements consider their positions on the battlefield as relevant, or even mentioned
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Because nobody talks about it except a brazilian non-binary mf 20+ years after the movie and around 15+ years of the animated show lmfao.
But in all seriousness, it is because there was no way to change the scenarios and any mention of that in canon would undermine the weight and coolness of the match
Imagine George Lucas saying that in an interview, or something claiming to be novelizing the movies? Or any source at all?

I'm bringing this up because, as I see it, that is what we do here, we pay attention to detail and bring forth what we think could be done with those details lol

Phsccarvalho said:
Yoda vs. Palpatine is always stated as Palpatine being stronger than Yoda in the Force and defeating him, being too strong for Yoda.
Click to expand...
Phsccarvalho said:
we are told directly that Palpatine is too strong for Yoda
Click to expand...
We are told that he felt it mid fight
We are told that after the fight went on a very unfavorable way for Yoda
It was stated that he won due to a strong force wielding, but Yoda could deal with his signature technique (likely his strongest) together with every aspect of the fight...until it became "far away large-object-fast-thrower vs. Old parkour fella", something that reached his limit.

So we see that Yoda was powerful enough to make more than once someone as impressive as Palpatine uncomfortable and uncertain (remember that, at the start, where he didn't know much about how Yoda fights, he was about to strategically L E A V E while being surprised that Yoda was alive and there), making more effort than what he thought he'd need to...
And it's not due to the only scenario possible that Yoda got impossibly overwhelmed due to his age that he lost, he'd lose anyway?
Hell no, shown aspects that definitely aren't cherrypicking show enough for me to see this as an unreasonable read (not calling you unreasonable, just the thesis)
 
noninho said:
Because nobody talks about it except a brazilian non-binary mf 20+ years after the movie and around 15+ years of the animated show lmfao.
But in all seriousness, it is because there was no way to change the scenarios and any mention of that in canon would undermine the weight and coolness of the match
Imagine George Lucas saying that in an interview, or something claiming to be novelizing the movies? Or any source at all?

I'm bringing this up because, as I see it, that is what we do here, we pay attention to detail and bring forth what we think could be done with those details lol
Click to expand...
The thing is, Star Wars has always been this way. Statements and context made later always changed things significantly. The Battle of Mustafar, for example, depending on how you look at it, the context of the fight and Anakin and Obi-Wan's powers completely changed (solo episode 3, Legends, and canon).

Since they can't change the movies, they always try to change the context of some event through statements from outside.

That goes for the one below.



Anyway, I'm thinking of creating the CRT for the Mandalorian default gear, so I can leave it in the profiles. Or would you prefer to create the CRT for the profiles and the default gear page at the same time?
 
Phsccarvalho said:
The thing is, Star Wars has always been this way. Statements and context made later always changed things significantly. The Battle of Mustafar, for example, depending on how you look at it, the context of the fight and Anakin and Obi-Wan's powers completely changed (solo episode 3, Legends, and canon).
Click to expand...
But what I'm bringing to the table is not altered by any context brought later. The statements you brought speak generally about something, that if analyzed throughly can show what I'm saying.
There are clips of Yoda vs. Palpatine on a cartoon (3 cuts with a total of 9 seconds lol), there is the fight in Palpatine's vision in 2007's Clone Wars Animated series and canon
None of those oppose each other in any point, matter of fact they corroborate (the vision possibly even explain why he thought fighting Yoda wouldn't be the best idea and why he strategized on fighting with a large distance), context is not shifted around to make the claims I'm bringing.

Phsccarvalho said:
Since they can't change the movies, they always try to change the context of some event through statements from outside.
Click to expand...
Which is not at all what's going on, on the statements you brought, just telling that he was stronger and overwhelmed Yoda
When it is shown that he's only stronger in one specific scenario and in the rest, he's not so far from Yoda
 
Phsccarvalho said:
Anyway, I'm thinking of creating the CRT for the Mandalorian default gear, so I can leave it in the profiles. Or would you prefer to create the CRT for the profiles and the default gear page at the same time?
Click to expand...
Speaking of my sweet helmet fellas, I think that if we come up with a page before the CRT, the rare mod that comes to the CRT may be more inclined to approve or state what's needed for approval
 
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