(Accepted) Revival of the Strongest Magical Girl #1 | Endless Hell of Tetrahedra

[Robo432343]

After reading the thread i agree with op because of the time railroad argument. The time railroad thing is very important because it shuts down any 3-D stuff

In exchange for the time looping ability, the species
degenerated their intelligence, as there is no point in
learning from the past if you can endlessly reset upon a
mistake. Therein lies our opportunity. And thus, we overcome
many challenges to reach our goal—a station platform. From
the infinite future, the track stretches to the infinite past. On
the tracks, infinite trains with infinite routes are parked.

 

[Telomera]

Yeah whatever, if there isn’t anything more then let's wait for staff members.

I'll summarize some issues with the shadow scaling since that seems to be the thing that immediately catches staff interest:

-The inside tetrahedrons that Kosane evolves into are described as shadows. And despite being shadows, they are successive progressive stages of her evolution to the 4D Time Railroad and are thus quantitatively superior, as the OP acknowledges. This proves that the shadows aren't quantitatively inferior, but are actually on a higher level (not to a "dimensional superiority" extent though, there's no proof of that)

-Contrary to Phoenks's claims, this is not a case of 4D tetrahedrons casting 3D shadows, nor, as OP claims, of 3D tetrahedrons casting 2D shadows. Instead, it is a case of a 3D tetrahedron casting 3D shadows. There is no dimensional difference here between the shadows and the original tetrahedron, they are of equal dimensionality.

-OP says that "the relationship between «shadow» and «real» of the layers in this case is simply not conventional and functions through a different logic while still retaining the characteristics that allow it to scale (as explained in the difference section)." OP wants to discard the logic of real shadows vs real non-shadows but arbitrarily wants to keep the scaling characteristics between them. This is special pleading. If OP really does want to discard the logic of real shadows vs real non-shadows and keep the scaling characteristics between them, they have to specifically justify keeping those scaling characteristics as opposed to discarding them along with the rest of the logic of "shadow vs non-shadow." OP has not justified keeping those scaling characteristics.

-The narrator Kosane doesn't even know if the "shadows" can even be called shadows at all. It doesn't make any sense to treat "shadow" as a metaphor for some sort of "dimensional inferiority" when the narrator is unsure if "shadow" is even the appropriate term to use in the first place.

 

[ExcelsisBerny]

There is no need to summarize anything. We literally exchanged only 3 messages but okay man.

I gently ask to the staff members to read the whole stuff from start to finish.

 

[Telomera]

There is no need to summarize anything. We literally exchanged only 3 messages but okay man.

I gently ask to the staff members to read the whole stuff from start to finish.

I don't mean to be contentious, but the same thing that motivated you to ask the staff to read the whole thing is the same thing that motivated me to make a summary. I get the impression that the staff really want to take whatever shortcuts they can which is not good for me here.

Of course, that does also mean that I support you in requesting the staff to read the whole argument from start to finish.

 

[Telomera]

After reading the thread i agree with op because of the time railroad argument. The time railroad thing is very important because it shuts down any 3-D stuff

What you cited only proves 5D via there being an additional time dimension. I agree with that, but that's nowhere near the High 1-B rating that OP proposes.

 

[RaveeCPN]

Seems fine.

 

[OmniScalator]

If cosmology is high 1B and madoka is beyond space and time, doesn't that mean she is L1A?

 

[ExcelsisBerny]

If cosmology is high 1B and madoka is beyond space and time, doesn't that mean she is L1A?

Yeah. I'm gonna scale her in the next thread.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Considering Kaltias approves, and a few other staff members, I am leaning towards agreeing. But This list should help finding who better people to ask would be. Though two I could ping are @Elizhaa and @Planck69

 

[ExcelsisBerny]

Thank you for your input. I am not sure how many agreements are needed for the thread to be accepted, but at the moment, with this one, we have three staff members in favor of the thread.

We should wait for one more to confirm the result.

 

[SweetDao]

Thank you for your input. I am not sure how many agreements are needed for the thread to be accepted, but at the moment, with this one, we have three staff members in favor of the thread.

We should wait for one more to confirm the result.

DDM is only "leaning" toward agreeing, so I wouldn't take it as a firm agreement for now.

Besides this, you typically need 3 staff members to get a tier 1 thread accepted.

 

[FriendOfTheTeaParty]

DDM is only "leaning" toward agreeing, so I wouldn't take it as a firm agreement for now.

Besides this, you typically need 3 staff members to get a tier 1 thread accepted.

Thank you for your input. I am not sure how many agreements are needed for the thread to be accepted, but at the moment, with this one, we have three staff members in favor of the thread.

We should wait for one more to confirm the result.

just need 1 more vote ya. already have an admin (mav) so that's not a problem

 

[ExcelsisBerny]

Okay. It's time to wait for another decade.

 

[DaimDB]

Bump

 

[Telomera]

Considering Kaltias approves, and a few other staff members, I am leaning towards agreeing. But This list should help finding who better people to ask would be. Though two I could ping are @Elizhaa and @Planck69

I'm not joking when i say thank you for not just putting in a whole vote solely because of what other staff voted lol

 

[ExcelsisBerny]

If they don't agree with you, then that's totally on them lol.

Anyways, still waiting for staff.

 

[ExcelsisBerny]

I'm curious, when the discussion rules say that it's "essential" for tier 1 threads to be evaluated by staff listed as knowledgeable on tier 1, is that actually a requirement or just a suggestion?

If you have questions like that, you can post them on the profile of the respective staff member, not here.

Can we avoid continuing to inflate the thread with messages that add nothing to what has already been discussed? If it reaches three pages, the staff will see it as more time consuming than it is and no one will want to evaluate it.

 

[Qawsedf234]

I remember being against the proposal two year ago. Has anything changed with the evidence or is it just an argument being rephrased?

 

[ExcelsisBerny]

I remember rejecting it like two year ago. Has anything changed with the evidence or is it just an argument being rephrased?

My argument is different. The scene was previously misinterpreted.

You can read my full proposal in the OP and my clarifications in the comments below. Telomera’s messages are there as well, and he disagrees.

The post’s approach is different from earlier ones.

 

[Qawsedf234]

My argument is different. The scene was previously misinterpreted.

We had a FAQ clarification since then with the note

An example of the same principle can be seen in the Tychonoff cube: Given the unit interval [0,1] (A 1-dimensional object) and an arbitrary cardinal number κ, one can represent by [0,1]^κ the generalization of the unit interval to κ-many dimensions. In English: If we had a line segment of length 1, and multiplied it by itself, an inaccessible cardinal's worth of times, the result would be a Tychonoff cube of inaccessibly-many dimensions. A 11-B object can be multiplied by itself in order to net a High 1-B+ object. This continuity between the two, where a larger object can be expressed as a composition of many smaller objects, is what makes the gap between these tiers quantitative.

From the look the ticket acts in a similar, albeit lesser, method as a Tychonoff Cube which qe already accept as being legitimate.

Since the shadows can get intimate infinite dimensional shapes that can be contained within an infinite realm, I guess High 1-B makes sense in that context. Though only because the train station realm is of large enough size rather than the shadows themselves.

 

[OmniScalator]

We had a FAQ clarification since then with the note

From the look the ticket acts in a similar, albeit lesser, method as a Tychonoff Cube which qe already accept as being legitimate.

Since the shadows can get intimate infinite dimensional shapes that can be contained within an infinite realm, I guess High 1-B makes sense in that context. Though only because the train station realm is of large enough size rather than the shadows themselves.

I guess CRT is passed?

 

[ExcelsisBerny]

We had a FAQ clarification since then with the note

From the look the ticket acts in a similar, albeit lesser, method as a Tychonoff Cube which qe already accept as being legitimate.

Since the shadows can get intimate infinite dimensional shapes that can be contained within an infinite realm, I guess High 1-B makes sense in that context. Though only because the train station realm is of large enough size rather than the shadows themselves.

The shadows weren’t even the main argument; they were more of a support showing that there’s a qualitative difference between planes, which refutes the idea that they’re necessarily ontologically linked by a single property.

The real strong point is the difference in magnitudes between planes. So yes, you’re not wrong.

With this we have three agreements (2 from admins). I suppose the thread has passed.

 

[Qawsedf234]

The shadows weren’t even the main argument;

I mean, I didn't see anything stronger but alright

 

[ExcelsisBerny]

Well, no changes to the profiles are necessary for now. In the next thread I will propose the tiers for the god tiers, since there is a substantial prior explanation.

So if everything is settled, I suppose the thread can be closed.

 

[DragoZeroNova]

Congrats on getting this passed! Would've commented earlier, but Tier 1 stuff scares me.

 

[OmniScalator]

Congrats on getting this passed! Would've commented earlier, but Tier 1 stuff scares me.

@ExcelsisBerny THE GOAT, my outer madoka is real

 

[RoninSlayer200]

Finally, tier 1 meguca

 

[Wankbreaker]

Well, no changes to the profiles are necessary for now. In the next thread I will propose the tiers for the god tiers, since there is a substantial prior explanation.

So if everything is settled, I suppose the thread can be closed.

Telomera dmed me about wanting to make 1 last post, so wait on that

 

[OmniScalator]

Telomera dmed me about wanting to make 1 last post, so wait on that

We would have to wait for grace anyways ig

 

[Wankbreaker]

We would have to wait for grace anyways ig

She doesn’t, it’s already been 48 hours since thread creation

 

[OmniScalator]

She doesn’t, it’s already been 48 hours since thread creation

I thought grace time starts from when a CRT reaches enough votes to pass, and it is like 12 hours?

 

[ExcelsisBerny]

Telomera dmed me about wanting to make 1 last post, so wait on that

I'm gonna be honest with you. Why? Telomera has genuinely had all the time up to now to make arguments, and I have given him ample opportunity to express himself. The thread has already been accepted.

I have no reason to keep spending my time on people who do not know when to throw in the towel. I am too busy these days to extend this any further.

I do not think he is going to contribute anything beyond what he has already done.

 

[Wankbreaker]

I thought grace time starts from when a CRT reaches enough votes to pass, and it is like 12 hours?

No, that’s only VS threads.

CRT grace starts from thread creation

 

[Qawsedf234]

I thought grace time starts from when a CRT reaches enough votes to pass, and it is like 12 hours?

Below is the rule:

For content revision suggestions, generally, a standard grace period of 48 hours should be allowed for the reviewing staff members to evaluate and approve them. However, in the case of extremely blatant, self-evident revisions, a grace period of 24 hours is acceptable. Until this grace period has elapsed, since the time of the thread's creation, the revision should not be applied to the profiles.
This is to ensure that all staff members have the opportunity to review the suggested revisions and provide their input, even if the initial explanation post in a content revision thread is quite large and complicated.

 

[ExcelsisBerny]

So yeah, this is over. I am going to start preparing the next thread. Thanks to everyone who participated here.

 

[Telomera]

Telomera dmed me about wanting to make 1 last post, so wait on that

Nah that was more about just in case I make something in the future. It's not really necessary right now since I'm not sure the staff care that much. But I might as well try.

I mean, I didn't see anything stronger but alright

The shadows argument doesn't work at all. The narrator of the story actually says that she's unsure if "shadows" is even the right word to use to describe the "shadows," (which are of the same dimensionality as the tetrahedron by the way) so it doesn't make any sense to pretend that they're making some sort of metaphor about quantitative superiority. Even worse, the "shadows" that the narrator is looking at are actually later stages of Kosane's evolution rather than previous ones (she falls into the shadows as she ascends to Time Railroad, she doesn't ascend away from them), so it makes literally no sense to argue that they're quantitatively inferior when they're clearly shown to be superior to some extent. OP even admitted that the shadows mentioned in this scene fundamentally operate off of a different system of logic. But despite this, they want to arbitrarily keep the uncountable quantitative relationship between shadows and non-shadows despite the shadows in this scene not being comparable at all to normal shadows, which is just special pleading.

What I said before should be sufficient to discard this scaling, but here's another thing. You have to remember that the tetrahedron is a glowing pyramid made of paper that the narrator folded up and is looking at from the outside. It's like a lamp. Honestly, given the shadows' superiority and the narrator's reluctance, it's way more likely that the "shadows" are actually just objects and only look like shadows since they're blocking the blue glow that the letter makes. Kinda like this.

From the look the ticket acts in a similar, albeit lesser, method as a Tychonoff Cube which qe already accept as being legitimate.

There are no infinite dimensional shapes involved here. Wankbreaker translated the scene where it talks about what's going on with all the tetrahedrons, and we can see two things going on. What's really happening is that first of all, there's an infinite hierarchy of tetrahedrons (which obviously doesn't require infinite dimensions) and secondly, each of the points in the narrator Kosane's body are turning into tetrahedrons and expanding to infinity. Since there are infinite points in her body, this happens infinite times. But it's not infinite dimensional because each of these points is never said to expand anymore than once. There is no stacking of multiple levels of infinity here (although I suppose expanding from a point to infinity is uncountably infinite, arguably +3D, but certainly nowhere near High 1-B). In total, all of this is equivalent to the uncountable union of all these points in her body each expanding to infinity once, which is nowhere near HIgh 1-B.

 

[Reiner04]

This seems fine

 

[OmniScalator]

There is no stacking of multiple levels of infinity here (although I suppose expanding from a point to infinity is uncountably infinite, arguably +3D, but certainly nowhere near High 1-B). In total, all of this is equivalent to the uncountable union of all these points in her body each expanding to infinity once, which is nowhere near HIgh 1-B.

I don't think we need multiple levels of infinities stacked, since like in tychonoff cube just uncountable infinite stack of a unit shape is enough to reach High 1B I suppose, since n tuple of tychonoff cube would be uncountably infinite if it have uncountably infinite stack of unit

 

[Telomera]

I don't think we need multiple levels of infinities stacked, since like in tychonoff cube just uncountable infinite stack of a unit shape is enough to reach High 1B I suppose, since n tuple of tychonoff cube would be uncountably infinite if it have uncountably infinite stack of unit

Multiplying a unit shape by an uncountable infinity is not nearly enough to reach High 1-B without extra context. That could be anywhere from Low 1-C to High 1-B.