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The Revenant Marvel Comics Discussion Thread

Don't know if anybody has seen it yet, but the solicit for Battleworld issue 2 says that the CrossGen universe will appear in that issue. Not sure how they're going to handle it, but it might be worth looking into just in case. Granted, I know hardly anything about CrossGen, so I'm not sure I can help out much there unless I can find it on Wikipedia or something...
 
Recently, I figured I'd try my hand at researching the Elder Gods of Earth. So far, I've only finished reading all of Oshtur's Appearances/Mentions, and all the appearances of Elder Gods in general (by which I mean the appearances listed on the EGOE page on the Marvel Wiki, which usually doesn't include everything). This whole thing will require me to do copious research, but what I mainly want to read includes:
  • All appearances/mentions for each individual Elder God like Chthon, Gaea, Tiwaz, Utgard-Loki, Atum, etc. and their variants in other comic universes.
  • All the appearances for the 4 Cornerstones of Creation (The Darkhold, Ebon Rose, Serpent Crown, and Sword of Bone).
  • All the appearances for the mystic dimensions of the Elder Gods within Earth-616 (Oshtur's Astral Plane, Set's Serpent's Sea, Chthon's Flickering Realms, and Gaea's Avalon).
  • Most of the appearances of the various cults and offspring of the Elder Gods (just to scavenge for abilities and possible feats).
I mentioned before that Chthon might be the most haxxed Marvel profile when I'm finished, but technically it would be the Demiurge Primordial since all the Elder Gods of Earth are aspects of him. Anyways, I said before that I read all the general appearances listed on the EGOE page on Marvel Wiki (no mentions), plus all of Immortal Thor. I'm gonna summarize my thoughts on their scaling. While I've barely started and found a couple good statements, I'm in a dead-end overall as far as their scaling goes. I won't bring too many scans since that'd be time-consuming though. Also, as I usually remind, many gods in Marvel have been called "Elder Gods," the Elder Gods of Earth are a specific class of Elder Gods spawned on Earth by the Demiurge.

First off, most of the major few stuff I actually found was related to their Abstract Existence and God Physiology (obviously). The Elder Gods are said multiple times to be living concepts and "greater" than normal gods. The Elder God Toranos called Thor a micro-god, and inhabitants of Utgard ("Asgardian" dimension where a bunch of Elder Gods fled) view gods the same way gods view mortals, and Elder Gods in general are to pantheons what pantheons are to mortals. Chthon is stated to be to demons what the Universe is to humanity. There's also this statement about how Gods are stories, which are shadow-play cast upon a cave wall, and Elder Gods are implied to be what casts that shadow. My interpretation of this is that cave/shadow is a reference to Plato's allegory of the cave, in which case Elder Gods would be akin to the platonic forms of regular gods. Gaea and Demiurge giving birth to Atum was described as something like 'when life comes together to make new life, that's the play of shadows, and the seed of an Elder God is the light. Gaea held the light like an ember until she reached the deep places, where Atum was then born.'

As far as actual scaling goes... I've come up short. I found a juicy statement for all Elder Gods being Chthon's equals (which consequently means all Elder Gods are equal to each other), but I'd prefer more broad, generalizable feats over a situation where I'd have to list several individual feats (even though I'd technically be valid in generalizing them anyways due to the "equals" statement). I'm searching for a specific plane of the cosmology they can scale to. It's stated a couple different times in Immortal Thor that Demiurge Primordial spawned the Elder Gods from the "Darkness of the Deep," and Gaea as far back as the Chaos War event was said to be the first entity born from the "darkness." I'd prefer a statement for them being embodiments of the darkness since scaling is easier that way, and otherwise you start a nitpicking game over how being born in a higher dimension doesn't necessarily mean you scale to it in all ways.

The "darkness" in this case might be the Dark Cold Room, or the Darkness around the White Hot Room. To elaborate, it was revealed in Resurrection of Magneto last year that the White Hot Room has a counterpart called the Dark Cold Room, which is inhabited by a bunch of cosmic oppositional entities to the Phoenix Force like the Adversary, Shadow King, Goblin Force, and a few others. There was also another oppositional force to the Phoenix called the Tiger God who was introduced before that, and he's said to originate in the darkness surrounding the White Hot Room: the nighttime surrounding the campfire of stories, if you will. These two dimensions of darkness opposing the White Hot Room are basically confirmed to be the same thing through some of the lore around Nyx.

When Nyx was described in her early appearances as the embodiment of night and whatnot, the Tiger God makes a cameo inside the "night" that Nyx represents when it's stated that the darkness was banished from the light around which stories are told. This means the darkness the Tiger God lives within, which is of course the darkness around the White Hot Room, is the same darkness that Nyx embodies. In Immortal Thor, Nyx gets transported to the Dark Cold Room, which is stated to be her place of power, confirming the Dark Cold Room and the Tiger God's darkness are all one dimension. The night that filled that place was also said to be Nyx's night, and she basically decides to keep living there and create universes.

Going back to the Elder Gods, Ultima seemed to have written in his Sandbox for an improved Nyx profile that he intended to scale Gaea to Nyx. I know it's a work in progress, but the justification thus far is that Nyx is described as a "Primal Being Greater than Gods," which is a "heavy implication" that she's similar to the Elder Gods of Earth. I definitely see the idea, but I'm not sure if an implication alone is enough for something as decisive as all Elder Gods scaling to the Dark Cold Room. I may have to reread Immortal Thor, or even all of Nyx's appearances, but I don't recall seeing any implications or confirmations for Nyx and the Elder Gods sharing a similar nature.

Then there's the matter of the Utgard Gods. Utgard is a dimension where many of the Elder Gods of Earth fled, and it's also where Those Who Sit Above in Shadow reside. I haven't read the appearances of Utgard outside Immortal Thor, but Utgard is implied to be Outside existence on the level of Oblivion. We accept in the profile for Those Who Sit Above in Shadow that they exist in the Outside, and Utgard is stated to be beyond the Far Shore. The problem is, I never found a statement for TWSAIS being Elder Gods. They're Gods who live in Utgard, yes, but it wasn't confirmed if they were there before or after the Elder Gods came, or if they even came there with them. There's this Q&A from Immortal Thor #7 where Al Ewing is asked if TWSAIS are Elder Gods or even linked to them, but he doesn't really confirm it and just says they might be appearing in later issues. In the Q&A for Immortal Thor #3, where a fan theorizes that Utgard is the outer darkness beyond the campfire (which as I said above, is a metaphor for the Dark Cold Room), but Al Ewing doesn't really validate that theory either.

In addition, there's the possibility that the darkness the Elder Gods were born in was the Far Shore, since Gaea's original statement for being born from the darkness was made during the Chaos War event, whose main villain was a Far Shore/Oblivion entity. But again, it's vague. So to summarize...
  • I can technically share all the Elder Gods' feats with each other, but I'd strongly prefer not to, and instead find more broad, generalizable feats for an Elder God Physiology profile.
  • The closest thing I have to Elder Gods scaling to a specific plane in the cosmology is them being born from some kind of void of darkness, but it's questionable which stats would scale to this plane if they were just born from it rather than being embodiments of it.
  • The "darkness" could be the Cold Dark Room beyond the White Hot Room, which seems to be where Ultima intended to scale the Elder Gods assuming they are similar to Nyx who's an embodiment of the Cold Dark Room. However, it's hard to determine how Elder Gods would scale to it since Nyx isn't directly called an Elder God from my knowledge, and the only evidence suggesting it is a statement that Nyx is a "primal being greater than gods" which has strong standing, but not beyond any reasonable doubt.
  • The Elder Gods could also scale to Those Who Sit Above in Shadows, but TWSAIS are also not confirmed to be Elder Gods of Earth from my knowledge. They live in a dimension where a bunch of Elder Gods escaped into, but no irrefutable confirmation. I will say though, that the profile for TWSAIS on the official Marvel site states that they "have certain similarities to the Primal Gods who may or may not have created the Cornerstones of Creation." I'm a little mixed on this point specifically, and wondering if I'm being too pedantic.
  • They could also scale to the Far Shore, if you believe that Gaea referencing the darkness she was born from in a story about the Chaos King automatically means that Chaos King's darkness is also her darkness.
I can't expect to find anything rock-solid off the bat, but I feel like I'm missing something.
 
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ProfectusInfinity said:
I may have to reread Immortal Thor, or even all of Nyx's appearances, but I don't recall seeing any implications or confirmations for Nyx and the Elder Gods sharing a similar nature.
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Gaea, Atum, Tiwaz, Oshtur, Set, Chton, Toranos, Mejed, Kemur, Nrgl and Utgard-Loki are the ones listed as survivors between the Elder Gods, the others died by Atum's hand
ProfectusInfinity said:
As far as actual scaling goes... I've come up short. I found a juicy statement for all Elder Gods being Chthon's equals
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They all fought the Godwar when they were born and it was stated that the war was stagnant, that it would have never ended if Gaea didn't give birth to Atum
 
I think splitting cosmology was not needed in first place since everything that happened 616 universe is canon that includes J. M. DeMatteis work
 
I tell more. I read silver surfer vol 3 and that mental realms (which used as one of reasons to spit cosmologies) literally just random realms they not exist above world within worlds, macroverse was introduced after them, they not even highest realms in multiverse (it was Brahma from which all other realms emanated).
 
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Just a note that I appreciate that Gail Simone is trying to morally redeem the X-Men after Hickman and Gillen dragged them through the dirt in that regard. 🙏
 
Antvasima said:
Just a note that I appreciate that Gail Simone is trying to morally redeem the X-Men after Hickman and Gillen dragged them through the dirt in that regard. 🙏
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What're they up to these days? Last I remember was Cyclops threatening to throw Juggernaut from the orbit onto the government or something.
 
MrKerf said:
What're they up to these days? Last I remember was Cyclops threatening to throw Juggernaut from the orbit onto the government or something.
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Well, it seems like Douglas Ramsey will brainwash almost all of mutants into becoming anti-human genocidal supremacists (the ones that weren't this way already that is), which will create yet another Nazi-style extremely dystopian future, which doesn't remotely seem like the kind of uplifting life-affirming and genuinely ethical stories that I personally prefer. 🙏
 
Antvasima said:
Well, it seems like Douglas Ramsey will brainwash almost all of mutants into becoming anti-human genocidal supremacists (the ones that weren't this way already that is), which will create yet another Nazi-style extremely dystopian future, which doesn't remotely seem like the kind of uplifting life-affirming and genuinely ethical stories that I personally prefer. 🙏
Click to expand...
Damn, that sucks. Didn't last long at all, huh?

Wait, Doug? Cypher? Huh... I thought I'll be skipping only Doom Sorcerer Supreme arc. But I'll pass on the next one too, thanks. :cautious:
 
MrKerf said:
Damn, that sucks. Didn't last long at all, huh?

Wait, Doug? Cypher? Huh... I thought I'll be skipping only Doom Sorcerer Supreme arc. But I'll pass on the next one too, thanks. :cautious:
Click to expand...
From what I understand, Apocalypse held some sort of competition to decide who his successor will be. Doug won, and as a result he's now "Revelation" and wears an ugly costume.
 
Speaking of, have you guys seen the latest meme on Twitter of Wanda and Jean being compared to Franklin in terms of power? Stuff is wild. Although I personally disagree. Thoughts?

 
Aren't quite a lot of superheroes comparable or superior to Franklin in raw power nowadays? Storm, Spectrum, Wiccan, Jean Grey, Scarlet Witch, Legion, Loki, Escapade (she can officially get the full powers of the Never Queen whenever she wishes), and so onwards. I personally think that it breaks the narrative, but nevertheless. 🙏
 
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MrKerf said:
Speaking of, have you guys seen the latest meme on Twitter of Wanda and Jean being compared to Franklin in terms of power? Stuff is wild. Although I personally disagree. Thoughts?

Click to expand...

IIRC Current Franklin is depowered or placed mental blocks on himself, but at his peak we currently list him as infinitely stronger than Phoenix and Scarlet Witch
 
Maverick_Zero_X said:
IIRC Current Franklin is depowered or placed mental blocks on himself, but at his peak we currently list him as infinitely stronger than Phoenix and Scarlet Witch
Click to expand...
...really? I can probably get him being above Wanda (although nowadays idk), but above the Full Phoenix? The heart of Creation, etc, etc? Damn. I stand corrected, I guess.
 
MrKerf said:
...really? I can probably get him being above Wanda (although nowadays idk), but above the Full Phoenix? The heart of Creation, etc, etc? Damn. I stand corrected, I guess.
Click to expand...
He's probably stronger when the Phoenix is not in their realm
 
How cannon can we consider Age of Revelations to be? I think this wiki usually take "futures" as other universes, this one is being advertised as being a true future.
 
Well, it will eventually likely be undone via time-travel, but I expect it to be yet another socially destructive/morally depraved dystopian nihilism Marvel Comics event with all of the relative heroes horribly humiliated, defiled, tortured, and exterminated by the mutant master race, with most of the writers still having sufficiently blinkered point of view double-standards to not realise that the X-Men as a concept has turned extremely far right supremacist oppressive and amoral in nature, rather than constructively far left ethical idealist. 🙏
 
Antvasima said:
Well, it will eventually likely be undone via time-travel, but I expect it to be yet another socially destructive/morally depraved dystopian nihilism Marvel Comics event with all of the relative heroes horribly humiliated, defiled, tortured, and exterminated by the mutant master race, with most of the writers still having sufficiently blinkered point of view double-standards to not realise that the X-Men as a concept has turned extremely far right supremacist oppressive and amoral in nature, rather than constructively far left ethical idealist. 🙏
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Obviously it's impossibly to have a future that isn't a result of a villain destroying or controlling Earth.
This event alone already shows us a bunch of those futures, like Superior avengers which are a team made of villains that came from an apocalyptic future, there is Doomed 2099 that is coming soon and it's suggested he may be coming to the past to rule the world.
 
vsbattles.com

Fantastic, Innit bruv? - Mister Fantastic vs Joseph Joestar (Marvel vs JoJo's Bizarre Adventure)

Reed (Mister Fantastic) Richards vs Joseph (JOJO) Joestar Battle between two genius fighters with supernatural abilities and a family full of supernatural members. Both also have shown beef with old and powerful beings (Galactus, DIO, Kars, etc) Rules 8-C versions will be used (so...
vsbattles.com vsbattles.com

hey guys hope all is well and has anyone seen the new fantastic four film? I enjoyed it myself so Im doing this
 
So the sun in Marvel also has magic protection. Sure, why not?
Z1zdPwD.png
 
Сonsidering the current "Wanda vs Franklin Richards" twitter war, i'm pretty sure Steve Orlando will give Wanda another big upscale in next Volume or event
 
Progrev228 said:
Сonsidering the current "Wanda vs Franklin Richards" twitter war, i'm pretty sure Steve Orlando will give Wanda another big upscale in next Volume or event
Click to expand...
How? She is already fighting the Griever on even footing, and the Griever is comparable with the Never Queen, who is second only to the One Above All in Al Ewing's cosmology, if I remember correctly.

I think that some of the writers, including Orlando, Ewing, and Murewa (the current Storm writer), seem to be breaking the Marvel Comics setting as a whole. There is nowhere left to go on a narrative level from where they have taken the power levels of their favourite characters. 🙏
 
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Antvasima said:
How? She is already fighting the Griever on even footing, and the Griever is comparable with the Never Queen, who is second only to the One Above All in Al Ewing's cosmology, if I remember correctly.

I think that some of the writers, including Orlando, Ewing, and the current Storm writer, seem to be breaking the Marvel Comics setting as a whole. There is nowhere left to go on a narrative level from where they have taken the power levels of their favourite characters. 🙏
Click to expand...
There still Dominions, Mikaboshi and other oblivion avatars, she can ascend higher into mystery, can beat ying and yang etc.
Btw I still think what Oblivion is top 1 in verse, since Ewing likes Kabbalah, and in Kabbalah exist such concept as Ayin which is really similar to concept of Oblivion. The only thing that doesn't add up is that if this is really so, then Oblivion should be above "world of creation" since Ayin is absolute, cannot emanate and exist above any tree of life
 
No, Murewa (the Storm writer) had Oblivion easily destroyed by a Mesopotamian storm god that Storm is either going to fight evenly or make love to or both, going by the previews and a future vision in the Hellfire Vigil story. 🙏
 
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Really? That seems much more reasonable than what I thought. But then what about the Mesopotamian thunder god being stated to be second only to The One Above All, if I understood correctly? 🙏
 
Okay. Thank you for the information. 🙏
 
Progrev228 said:
Didn't Murewa write in twitter that all abstracts in his story is just universal manifestations?
755
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Holy shit, massive respect in that case. Still don’t really like Storm randomly getting buffed to that high when she’s far more consistently treated as like, a 3-C Herald at best, but it’s far more reasonable than making her some High Outer God that trashes almost everyone in the verse.
 
I haven't read any of the Storm comics. Is there any context to her winning these fights, or is it just god powers? And where does it leave her relative to other gods? Like is she on or beyond Skyfather level?
 
ObberGobb said:
I haven't read any of the Storm comics. Is there any context to her winning these fights, or is it just god powers? And where does it leave her relative to other gods? Like is she on or beyond Skyfather level?
Click to expand...
Eternity takes control of her body and uses her to fight, using Abraxas too to power-up. While using Ororo's body to fight they should be comparable to other Universal Abstract Entities
 
The only problem with this new Storm comics is the addition of a Universal form for TOAA and The House of Ideas
 
Entity said:
Eternity takes control of her body and uses her to fight, using Abraxas too to power-up. While using Ororo's body to fight they should be comparable to other Universal Abstract Entities
Click to expand...
That's good I guess. Does that mean base Storm isn't Abstract level? I'm fine with her being Skyfather level since there are several heroes at that level, but I think its dumb for her to be Abstract level. And in Immortal Thor I think its implied that Thor is still stronger than her?
 
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