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Breaking Bond (Mario and Luigi Brothership 2-B (at least 2-C) CRT)
- Thread starter Galactidot
- Start date
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Friend, I'm not a Mario scaler, I was just saying my opinion over things, as I just find the idea of taking assumptions and theories over narrative to be dumb
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Understandable, it isn't really the same at all, but I understand your point, still a dumb one
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lmao?
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Not through this method. Their argument (to my understanding) is that it scales to Reclusa's UES, and then back to an amp the characters can access. They're not arguing that it's something the cast scales to in base, whether in the dream worlds or in reality.
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It means I want it to say "[Old Rating], Possibly 2-C" under the logic that it depends on how you interpret the nature of the dream worlds and how the character interacts with them and we simply don't have a straight answer on that to say which interpretation is more objectively correct.
I don't think it would be reasonable to reject the feat entirely or to simply list it as 2-C without any nuance.
That said, the suggestion of it being "2-C with Dream Manipulation" isn't unreasonable to me either.
Whether or not it works in a particular verse can be argued in a versus thread in that case.
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What you're saying makes sense
Galactidot
They/Them- 676
- 573
- Thread starter
- #168
You just tried to claim i intentionally misinterpreted the staff votes? Okay, buddy. I don't think we should start pointing fingers now.
I know how names work. I know being named something is not immediately indicative of what you really are. I could tell you how Reclusa is straight up inspired by the devil, from like, the bible, but I'm just not even gonna go there at this point.
If you think there's some flaws on what VSBW voted for earlier, go appeal to that issue on it's own.
I just explained. That would be the equivalent. Of Reclusa having as many dream worlds as the whole dang population.
There's even less evidence for them surviving, so we need you to prove they survived. We have seen dream worlds vanish before. And if they return to an uncorrupted state, that's still a tier 2 feat if that all happens at once.
The name wasn't an argument, the Nintendo thing was based on the fact that this has happened before, and you still ignored the Driftwood Shore section. You're starting to get quite aggressive over the argument --- you're over here dropping ad hominem here...
And here. You did not make a clear argument.
Galactidot
They/Them- 676
- 573
- Thread starter
- #169
Let me explain where I stand...
Reclusa owns this UES known as "Glohm". He's essentially a living chaos emerald.
He can use this power freely, and utilize this force of loneliness that has caused the collapse of hundreds of universes full of millions of dreams time and time again.
Glohm enemies could be considered "blessed" by Reclusa.
Putting Reclusa in a tier remotely similar to Mario and Luigi is, to put it simply, bonkers. He takes far more punishment than any foe Mario and Luigi have faced in the ENTIRE FRANCHISE, and still has time to whine about his defeat.
He does the same glitching and reality-warping shenanigans in the real world as he does in the dream worlds.
Reclusa isn't a physical fighter, and he never will be. But he is durable as they come.
He has shown to be able to do what Dreamy Bowser does, and MORE. He has similar feats, many more impressive ones, yet we're still treating him like
"just another guy"?
The reason I brought up the name was to try and get across what he is meant to be in the lore. God might literally be in his name. He is portrayed as a god. If you want, I have a bilingual friend fluent in both Italian and Japanese who could settle this, or we could just leave this. He's not some isolated (pun intended) threat. He's a maniacal god who has caused more destruction than anyone in the franchise has ever done before.
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If I was claiming that i'd be way more serious about it. But it is wrong.
I plan to. I don't think you should worry about the validity of dream universes right now, I'm just mentioning it so if I eventually make a thread it doesn't completely blindside people.
Yes, but if the universes are linked to the flowers, just removing the flowers is enough. They're sustaining them, by messing with the people's minds.
That's not how that works. Disputing someone's proof of something doesn't require proving the opposite, my argument is we don't really know either way. It's called reasonable doubt.
And that Reclusa doesn't scale to, as I've discussed before.
Which is something you resorted too, and that I was quoting. If you're going to start a shit-slinging contest I can only pretend I'm the better man so much.
That's because I wasn't making an argument, there.
Galactidot
They/Them- 676
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- Thread starter
- #171
Okay, thank you for clarifying.
I will combust if we have 4-C Mario in 2025
Remove the flowers how? These aren't normal flowers...
That's why we could use a possibly...
Okay, the death of him causes all the parts of him to die, and he encompasses all of those dreams that come from the Soli-tree. He does scale to that.
Just... Don't even go there...
If you were disputing, then say it as such. You can only try and find easily remediable flaws in someone else's argument for so long without any evidence or franchise knowledge of their own.
Here I summarized my argument so far:
Please dispute this information from here on out. Don't be condescending, don't invalidate my points based on previous statements, and make valid points against mine as we move forward. I cannot keep shying away from my argument in the presence of mere debilitating words. I'd advise everyone else in this discussion work from here on out as well. If you want to bring up an earlier point, do it in a straightforward manner.
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Galactidot
They/Them- 676
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- #173
Oh, sorry, I was unaware of that...
Was just pinging the admins, my apologies
I guess you all were the "everyone else". Oops
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No, I meant: only staff are capable of pinging people like that.
If a regular user does it nothing happens (other than link to their profile).
Galactidot
They/Them- 676
- 573
- Thread starter
- #175
Oh!
That's good, thought I messed up there for a sec
Galactidot
They/Them- 676
- 573
- Thread starter
- #176
Adding on to this, I figure I should mention some details about Reclusa:
His durability
Reclusa HP:
4812 (chase hp)
+ 5100 (core hp)
+ 10000 (battle hp
+ 50000 (fall hp)
69912 HP
Reclusa has 3 battles, a falling phase, and still gets a cutscene to complain about his loss after (most foes die at the end of the fight)
To boot, he either has a high level of regeneration (as shown at the end of his first chase battle) where he suddenly reappears after the death animation. Everyone reacts to his reappearance with shock as well, suggesting it was diegetic.
(The fact he also only dies after Connie tells him off could suggest some form of conceptual (UPDATE HE DOES), and having to be rejected in order to disappear (unsure about this tho), similar to what happened to Dark Matter at the end of Pokemon Super Mystery Dungeon, but I digress.)
HP BETWEEN DIFFERENT GAMES IS NOT APPLICABLE!
Regardless, he still has the largest HP ratio in the franchise, made clear to be intentional.
Power in the real world
Reclusa makes numerous statements about the real world's "end".
- "All that awaits them is a slow demise! I'm so thrilled for this world to end!"
- "Everyone will be cluelessly alone!"
- "The world will be over before anyone knows what happened!"
However, he does have a line suggesting he means this literally:
"I will play with this world until it's gone!
This does admittedly line up with feats he has shown in the Dream Worlds. Here is what he shares between both worlds:
- Reality Warping (creation, duplication for example)
- Teleportation (instantaneous)
- Spatial Manipulation (the space around him glitches in his presence, Zokket can use this to a lesser extent to flip the screen upside down)
- Immortality
- Shapeshifting
- Dimensional Travel
Reclusa vs Dreamy Bowser
You know what? So far, Reclusa has surpassed Dreamy Bowser in just about everything, or has he? Let's compare Dreamy Bowser's most powerful abilities to Reclusa's:
Dream Manipulation:
At it's full power, the Dream Stone can control all dream worlds. However, during the events of Dream Team when it was used, it only had a fraction of it's power, at around 100,000 dream worlds. This is how Dreamy Bowser got 2-B, defined as
Funny you mention that. Reclusa uses the Soli-Tree to source his dream worlds, and whether he creates them from scratch or modifies them, he has sent entire universes into dreams before. Earlier we established he can control at least 98,303,150 of these (he has been openly stated to have done this before). Mario universes are infinite, so he could get up to 2-A
if we get crazy with this. But this at least gives Reclusa 2-B based on these rules.
Reclusa is his own Dream Stone, rather, a parasitic form of it. If he took over these millions-to-infinities of dream worlds, and can sustain them as a potentially nigh-omnipresent force, then yes, he scales to that.
Reality Warping:
Reality Warping is one of Dreamy Bowser's strongest techniques, and he uses it to summon minions, duplicate himself, and more. But Reclusa can also manifest a whole army from the Soli-tree, duplicate himself, and many of Dreamy Bowser's other abilities.
Existence Erasure is one I have to give to Dreamy Bowser, though. Reclusa claims to be able to do it, but Dreamy Bowser was about to follow through before the Dream Stone was shattered.
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Soo
Judging by the recent arguments, this still isn't AP and rather hax.
Judging by the recent arguments, this still isn't AP and rather hax.
Galactidot
They/Them- 676
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- #178
Nah I still think he got AP, as I laid out with the Dreamy Bowser comparision
...Unless, of course, the Dream Stone is only hax, of course...
Dust_Collector
They/Them- 9,279
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We don't scale based on game mechcanics like HP, unless we wanna say base Bowser during Paper Jam is more durable than his Dreamy Bowser self (He has 9,999 HP in that game) and then suddenly become less durable by the time Brothership happens (His HP even in his amped Gloam state is less than 9,000 HP).
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Yeah, especially if mechanics vary from game to game due to how the combat coding/mechanisms are executed. 99 HP is considered peak for OG Paper Mario standards but very basic for Mario & Luigi series standards. But either way, even in the same game, we do not treat some random enemy's superboss status as a means to upscaling them from the final boss.
Galactidot
They/Them- 676
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- Thread starter
- #181
Ohhhh, that makes sense, I was wondering how it'd work within RPGs.
Albeit, he does still have the biggest overall HP gap ratio between enemies in any individual game, so the point still stands in a way --- is this true?
Even the plot makes a point about how he just won't give up
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Galactidot
They/Them- 676
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Yeah, I guess possible abstract existence can work then.
Galactidot
They/Them- 676
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- #184
Yep! Bringing in more updated scans and translations soon as well~
ZespeonGalaxy
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im fine with possible AE.
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Being an embodiment of something is not enough for AE or anything conceptual. "Embodiment" is not a word used exclusively for abstract entities, in fact, most of the time it isn't. It would not be incorrect for me to call a really evil dictator "the embodiment of evil" for example
Galactidot
They/Them- 676
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- #187
If you read the other translation meanings, they get specific as to call him "a mass of pure lonely energy". It would be incorrect to call that dictator "a mass of evil". This is literally saying he IS, not is containing.
Also, Shun is a scientist. He'll be more specific than we would be when referring to such an entity.
Galactidot
They/Them- 676
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- Thread starter
- #188
DDM? Just wondering, where do you stand now in the discussion?
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Being made of pure lonely energy isn't abstract existence?
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Galactidot
They/Them- 676
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- Thread starter
- #191
Ohhh, but what about him being the embodiment of the energy of loneliness?
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Well, that wording is definitely more vague, and therefore more likely to be abstract.
We would need more elaboration to conclude that, though.
Galactidot
They/Them- 676
- 573
- Thread starter
- #193
Well, the way translation would work in this case is we'd choose based on context. From the options I presented, we are most likely having him as a concept. But I'll ask some Japanese speakers for help here!
ZespeonGalaxy
He/Him- 2,182
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Do you have the japanese statement?
Galactidot
They/Them- 676
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- Thread starter
- #195
WDYM by that?
ZespeonGalaxy
He/Him- 2,182
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Is there more than that statement? I couldve clarified, apologies.
Galactidot
They/Them- 676
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- #197
It's okay!
You're asking if this is stated elsewhere? In that case, not that I'm aware of, but it would confirm my theory from earlier verbatim.
Unless you want the previous sentence for context?
Galactidot
They/Them- 676
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- Thread starter
- #198
Tada! Here's the previous sentence. The way these two sentences flow together states Mario and Luigi to be in possession of the power of bonds, which they can use to fight Reclusa, the embodiment of isolation.
I asked someone who knows some Japanese (still looking for more perspectives) and they claimed the embodiment statements are likely to be the intended interpretations.
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It definitely sounds like he's just saying Reclusa is a loner- it doesn't grant anything combat related
Galactidot
They/Them- 676
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- Thread starter
- #200
"Definitely"? Listen, I get Armorchompy liked your comment and all that but... This time, can you guys just. Listen? I'm not sure if either of you really understand how this Japanese interpretation stuff even really works.
Y'all take the most verbatim statements and say it's just a metaphor --- look.
He's at least incorporeal. At the very least he's made of isolation.
He's very possibly abstract. Being "a loner" doesn't grant you the power to control loneliness on a multiversal scale.
He might even be both. The two often overlap (those with abstract usually have incorporeal)
"Embodiment of loneliness" is just a literal scientist saying what he is. It's like looking at Stanford Pines call Bill a "Dream Demon" and just saying "oh so it's like a speed demon so he has cool dreams"
"Embodiment of loneliness energy" is just the same thing but referring to the power that comes from loneliness that manifests in the form of Glohm. Again, a scientist that is heavily implied to have prior knowledge of Reclusa and be one of the smartest characters in the game calling someone The "embodiment of loneliness energy" and just actually meaning "Oh he's a lonely fella" is absurd.
The last one is literally saying he's made of pure loneliness. A "mass of pure lonely energy" cannot be likened to calling someone a loner. If someone asked a scientist to tell them to describe a school bully, would the scientist call the bully "A mass of pure mean energy"?
Who would go from telling someone they possess a very real power we know about in high amount, which is bond energy...
To telling them their opponent is actually lonely, and saying to watch out because he's lonely, and not because he's made of loneliness power or exists as the concept of loneliness? Again, a scientist would say all of this.
"Oh Twilight Sparkle from My Little Pony (W show), you and your friends have the magic of friendship in the form of the Elements of Harmony, ranging from Tier 2-A to Low 1-C, but WATCH OUT, you're dealing with the average school bully! He's a mass of pure mean energy and the embodiment of meanness, and as someone with 5 P.H.D.s and a doctorate, I mean that metaphorically, so be on guard!"
And above all else, if your interpretation was correct, there would be at least one translation remotely leaning towards what you just said. There are many different interpretations for each Japanese statement, but none of them come close to simply calling him a loner.
They all at least qualify him for incorporeal, and at most qualify him for abstract.
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