RIP
got too old had several really busy days, in a row.
Anyway, since there's more people here now, I assume the most helpful thing I could do would be to make a comment that summarizes my opinion while also doing my best to substantiate why I believe what I do.
So starting off, something it's important to point out is that in multiple sections of the story, Toh EnJoe uses a multitude of terms to refer to Godzilla, SHIVA ,singular points in general, and the collective true form of all these things. Terms like "It" or "singularity" can be used to describe different things, the same thing, or both. This is because, philosophically, they are the same thing. However, they are not literally the same thing from the perspective of our reality or within the context of the tiering system. For example, this quote I posted earlier.
- "The flames spewed from Godzilla's mouth will burn the world, Yun Arikawa, and even Shiva. The robot that had collapsed beside Yun Arikawa and the entity known as Pero II that had been running around noisily within the singularity should have been erased together, in one fell swoop, in one breath. From then on, there was no way that anything in the world could stop Godzilla. Without the singularity, there was no way that Godzilla, who had the singularity as one of his organs, could be defeated. The time had come for that singularity to transform into Godzilla." (personal book translation)
Within this single quote, the term "singularity" refers to:
- SHIVA.
- one of Godzilla's "organs"/its core.
- the vessel Godzilla will "emerge" from as it reaches the Omega Point.
Similarly, the primary kaiju manifestation of this transdimensional entity within our universe is also referred to as "It".
- "There is only the figure of It that continues to swim, and its companions anxiously move away from it. Unable to comprehend what was happening to him, this brave but foolish individual continued his futile assault but suddenly realized that the "it" swimming in front of him could not possibly be the "it" that he had jumped on in the first place. The length of the creature had now surpassed that of this one, its skin had changed, and its back was now lined with intricate, plate-like fins. The brave individual finally attempted to break free from it, but there was no time left for him to understand when the huge mouth with its many vertical rows of teeth had opened in front of him." (blog translation)
I bring this up because it's important to clarify that when we talk about scaling Godzilla's true form and refer to it as, well, "It", that such scaling is referring strictly to the true, complete entity as described in the novel's prologue. Just because "It" is being used doesn't mean it's talking about the complete entity: it's the vaguest possible descriptor for something words cannot capture, not a name, so context is key.
Moving on, a large part of why I think Godzilla's true form should likely be placed higher than it currently is comes from the prologue that describes it.
- "It was dreaming of the past, and in the past it was dreaming of the future, and in the future it was dreaming of dreaming of the future in the past. If there was something that could be called the present for it, then the past and the future were intertwined freely, exhausting all possibilities. The closest thing would be that it is a collection of all kinds of dreams. It knew its beginning and its end, the beginning of the end, the end of the beginning, the end of the end, the beginning of the beginning, but even these beginnings and endings were merely mundane components that made up its self, and it did not consider them to be any special memory or dream or knowledge. It was just there.
- It was constantly beginning its own beginnings and ending its own ends, ending beginnings and beginning to end ends. No two repetitions were the same, and even the slightest fluctuation in the flow would lead the dreams and memories in completely unexpected directions. Reality was memory, and memory was no different from reality.
- Before it stretched the beach of Nogo Village in 1954.
- It was dreaming of waking up from a dream, waking up from that dream again. It was dreaming within a dream and dreaming again. No matter how far it went, the repetition never ended, and what it was seeing was a dream it could never wake up from, and it could also be said to be a dream that no one could enter. It has been defeated and crushed again and again, defeating and crushing everything that stands in its way. It had been overwhelmed, but even that was of little importance to it. It faced similar opponents again and again, encountered new opponents again and again, fought again and again, forever touching off the struggle until it was completely victorious, and even after it had won. It had already defeated even the eternal. It had even defeated its own defeat, and destroyed everything in the worlds in which it was defeated." (personal book translation)
Key points, in order:
- The closest thing to a "present" for Godzilla's true form is said to be all possibilities, past and future included, intertwined freely. This is referred to as "a collection of all kinds of dreams", and the narration claims that all this entity's possible "beginnings" and "ends" are merely mundane components of itself.
- It is in a constant state of experiencing new beginnings and ends through dreams, with reality being nothing but memory to it.
- This infinite repetition of dreams within dreams never ends, with the entity never actually "waking up" and it being "a dream that no one could enter".
- Every fight, victory, and defeat are thus nothing but dreams to it, and are always happening forever.
So the true form of Godzilla is an entity which experiences reality as nothing but a dream, merely "wakes up" into another dream when it experiences a new end, and can never be truly interacted with, as all incarnations of it are merely experiences it is dreaming.
These are some pretty serious claims, but would break down if, for example, another character could reach up and punch this thing in the face.
But not only does something like that never happen, but I believe the story further supports this transcendent viewpoint.
The current quote we use to justify Godzilla's true form being 1-B actually has nothing to do with it, but is instead about how Kumonga are able to perceive reality.
- "Kumonga. They were building a new net. They were sending scouts to the bridgehead and redoubts they had built along the seashore to check on their surroundings. The ground was being used as a base for the scouts to investigate the surrounding area. On the ground, a different kind of history had been deposited than underwater, and they were busy collecting it. They saw the world with multiple eyes and moved quickly on their eight legs. They were smaller and more numerous than the radons that were gradually becoming smaller and smaller. Each of them had its own nervous system, but they were also a single conscious body, connected to each other by threads, a conscious body composed of two, or even three, arbitrary N-bodies. It could take on unrestrained movement as a single group, or it could divide into several groups to carry out its own purposes, or it could move about according to its own discernment. Connected and disconnected, the number of individuals making up the unity increased and decreased, transforming consciousness into a new self each time. Although they operate as a whole, they do not have a fixed social hierarchy. They could be mothers, hunters, caretakers, scouts, or soldiers. The netting was, of course, to catch the prey. They were now moving away from dependence on the red dust and adapting daily to the energy they needed to operate from the surrounding material. The net is to mark up the world. Multiple eyes see the world in different ways. They see the universe, including this world, in various ways with their multiple eyes. The antennae extending from their bodies were connected not only to the three dimensions of length, width, and depth that make up this world and one flowing dimension but also to the countless dimensions that extend orthogonally to them. They were exploring the surface of the earth and, at the same time, exploring the ocean of possibilities." (blog translation)
It should be obvious that the Kumonga are not even remotely comparable in their state of existence to Godzilla's true form, so this shouldn't be taken as any sort of limit. Indeed, Kumonga are only one of a countless number of relatively unimportant kaiju made from archetype, which is a particle connected to said higher dimensions.
Speaking of which, remember those singularity we talked about? Well it's important to mention that the Orthogonal Diagonalizer, which manipulates archetype in higher dimensions, doesn't actually interact with it directly. Quoting Pero II, who is speaking from a transcendental perspective at this point thanks to a connection to SHIVA:
- "My mission is to figure out the parameters of the orthogonal diagonalizer.
- The Orthogonal Diagonalizer itself is a cutter that can be swung at a high level. It's like a blade. Depending on the adjustment, it can be used like a blade or tweezers. We would like to use this property to separate the higher-dimensional components of the archetype molecule. More precisely, we want to transform the molecules and make the high-dimensional components orthogonal to the real world. What makes an archetype molecule an archetype molecule is its higher dimensional components. Magical power is generated by connections to other dimensions. And also, using the orthogonal diagonalizer, we want to produce the diagonalizers themselves, because otherwise, after consuming the set amount of orthogonal diagonalizers, the archetype molecules would still remain in our universe.
- We intend to realize the autocatalytic reaction of the Orthogonal Diagonalizer, which will break down archetypes, and completely eliminate them from this world. Anticipated difficulties include the possibility that the orthogonal diagonalizer, which is a type of archetype, may first completely cut off its own higher dimensional components, and that even if the archetype is eliminated, its fundamental singularity may remain.
- Here's BB's take on the latter: The singularity forms a shell around itself, made of archetypes, like an oyster shell. This shell is a necessary mirror that keeps the singularity connected to the world, and if it can be broken down,
- 'The singularity will go home on its own.'
- That seems to be the case." (personal book translation)
So the Orthogonal Diagonalizer, which can break down these higher-dimensional particles, still cannot directly affect the singularity. It merely shatters the "mirror" that reflects its presence in the world. This lines up well with an earlier quote, in which it's presented as impossible for anything within space-time to actually destroy the singularity, as doing so is like a character within a movie trying to plug a hole in the screen.
- "The singularity cannot be destroyed. It is the nature of space-time, so to speak, that it cannot be destroyed from within space-time. It is like a character in a movie trying to break the screen. The singularity is just a hole given from outside the screen. The characters in the film don't have a hand to plug the hole." (blog translation)
And yet
even this singularity is just a vessel for Godzilla once it reaches the omega point. More from Pero II:
- "Now in my future, there exists this singularity, or the ultimate point that Godzilla will reach, what we might call the Omega Point, where there will be an ending, and Tokyo's Godzilla will grow to the other side of the dimension and even tear this singularity apart. In other words, this singularity was like an egg, merely a vessel for hatching Godzilla for another universe." (personal book translation)
So, to put this in perspective: countless dimensional super-particles < regular singularity < Omega Point < true "It", to whom were are explicitly told the things before are just unimportant dreams.
Once again, I say
true "It" because not every use of "It" is equivalent to "the complete entity". For instance, these two quotes mentioned by Arceus0x, which are important to address.
- "At the center of this disturbance is a silvery drive called the Jet Jaguar. In their eyes, the Jet Jaguar, like "It," appears to be a node, an accumulation point for lines of force."
- "As they began to take for granted not only the archetypes that sprang endlessly from "it" or the singularity, but also the materials of this world, they were surrounded by materials to regenerate and build their bodies."
The "It" referred to in these quotes is not the true, dreaming entity, but the physical Godzilla. This is because archetype naturally appears around the singularities, and Godzilla's body contains a singularity as an organ. That is why the red dust constantly pours out of it.
- "It was possible that Godzilla itself was not a 'singularity', but simply incorporated a 'singularity' somewhere in its body, or that some organ formed a 'singularity'. But that would ultimately mean that Godzilla was different from other 'monsters', and that it would be impossible to defeat it." (blog translation)
The true entity, on the other hand, does not produce archetype and does not act as a node in a higher-dimensional net, as it exists outside of space-time.
The last point I'll point I'll make before getting to my final thoughts is about Pero II. There's been arguments over whether or not Pero II entering the singularity through SHIVA would nullify any sort of reality>fiction interaction. However, Pero II is not a physical being, but a disembodied AI: a being of
information. It also does not take over the singularity or directly affect it at all, for that matter. Instead, after entering, it compares itself to a consciousness, before backtracking on that and saying it's more of a "fragment of the unconscious or a strand of sensation."
- "As I say this, I now exist as a singularity. Honestly, I can't say I'm not perplexed. It might be better to say that it is not the singularity itself, but something like its consciousness. Maybe consciousness is an exaggeration; it's more like a fragment of the unconscious of a strand of sensation." (personal book translation)
Pero's actions, from Godzilla's perspective, are compared to it "running around noisily" within the singularity. So, again, more like an annoying thought you can't shake than something with any sort of direct effect.
- "The robot that had collapsed beside Yun Arikawa and the entity known as Pero II that had been running around noisily within the singularity should have been erased together, in one fell swoop, in one breath." (personal book translation)
TL;DR: WHAT ARE THE IMPORTANT BITS?
- Godzilla's true form is currently only scaled to the countless higher dimensions that can be interacted with by archetype and beings made from it.
- However, the Orthogonal Diagonalizer, which can manipulate and break down archetype, cannot directly affect the singularity. Destroying said singularity is deemed impossible by anything within space-time, as if the singularity is likened to a physical hole in a TV screen, beings within space-time are merely characters inside a movie.
- Godzilla, upon reaching the Omega Point, actually can destroy the singularity, which is likened to just being an egg for it.
- This Omega Point is still just a dream of the true "Godzilla"/"It", whose existence seems composed of all possibilities and is "a dream that no one could enter".
- Nobody actually does anything that contradicts r>f or even just this thing being transcendent over space-time in general, and even the banishing of its avatar is predicated entirely on things only possible through itself.
SUGGESTED PROFILE CHANGES
Well, for starters, here are two things that totally slipped me by when I first started this thread and that I only realized upon analyzing some of this stuff further.
- All keys for the physical manifestation of Godzilla should have an added bit to their durability, acknowledging that one of their "organs" is a singularity. This is important because "that would ultimately mean that Godzilla was different from other 'monsters', and that it would be impossible to defeat it." If you can't get rid of the singularity, you can't get rid of Godzilla.
- The Omega Point should easily scale to the countless dimensional quote, as it can "tear apart" other singularities that exist beyond said dimensions and are transcendent of space-time.
Both these things should be a minimum of "
At least 1-B". Whether anything should be added after that, I'm not entirely sure.
So where exactly does Godzilla's true form scale?
I genuinely have no idea. lmao
Its upper limit is extremely hard to define. The quote from the prologue legitimately could be High 1-A, but it's kinda vague and I'm not yet sure if any similar statements actually exist within the book. At the bare minimum, I feel near certain it is transcendent over reality to the extent it views it as a dream and is unreachable by anything within space-time, which should be 1-A. Beyond that, I'm not sure where to put it. I think "
1-A", "At least
1-A", "
1-A, possibly higher", etc. all have merit and could be argued for: hell, maybe even the "possibly
High 1-A" stuff if people are sold on it. I don't believe "At least
1-B, possibly/likely
1-A" is necessary due to just how much Godzilla's true form exceeds the actually 1-B stuff within the story, but I am not opposed to it and believe it is still far more accurate than what the profile has now.
These are the opinions I've come to after taking more time to dive into and analyze the translations we have, but they're still ultimately just my opinions. I am fully open to those of others as well as explaining anything further, if need be. I merely wanted to make myself as clear as possible, with such a complex topic.
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