Breaking Bond (Mario and Luigi Brothership 2-B (at least 2-C) CRT)

[Galactidot]

@GyroNutz @SamanPatou @Maverick_Zero_X @Starter_Pack @CrimsonStarFallen

What do you think about this?

Sorry if I seem impatient but

I don't think they're coming lol

 

[JJSliderman]

It takes a while sometimes

 

[JPTheGamer]

Sorry if I seem impatient but

I don't think they're coming lol

Have you tried the CRT promotion thread yet?

 

[Galactidot]

Have you tried the CRT promotion thread yet?

Tried it, hopefully it gets brought back from the dead

 

[JPTheGamer]

Tried it, hopefully it gets brought back from the dead

Just keep asking for input.

 

[Galactidot]

Just keep asking for input.

Asking people inside the CRT promo thread (the people tagged) or people outside?

 

[JPTheGamer]

Asking people inside the CRT promo thread (the people tagged) or people outside?

Outside

 

[OrangeFR]

Really quick, are there any spoilers for M&L Brothership in this CRT? I'd like to comment on it but I haven't finished the game.

Decided to bite the bullet after a month (I’m not finishing the game soon and I’m not super invested in the story).

The cutscene where the flowers are first introduced feature around half the population of Concordia getting trapped by flowers VERY rapidly during the view over the different islands.

This kind of seems like a nail in the coffin, CRT looks good to me.

 

[JPTheGamer]

Bump

 

[Galactidot]

Bump

bup

 

[ActuallySpaceMan42]

The cutscene where the flowers are first introduced feature around half the population of Concordia getting trapped by flowers VERY rapidly during the view over the different islands.

No matter how rapidly, it would still be Low 2-C unless it happens at the same time. It really depends on the feat.

Aside from that, I think AE and Conceptual is too vague. Villains saying they're going to erase the heroes is common, and it should just be a possibly, unless they've shown erasure abilities before.

Neutral on the Glohm stuff.

 

[Galactidot]

No matter how rapidly, it would still be Low 2-C unless it happens at the same time. It really depends on the feat.

How about the stabilization? Also, considering the Soli-tree is the source of everything, it's creation more likely than not coincides with all the dream worlds being created at once, and utilized slightly sporadically.

Aside from that, I think AE and Conceptual is too vague. Villains saying they're going to erase the heroes is common, and it should just be a possibly, unless they've shown erasure abilities before.

Makes sense, we were going for a possibly anyways! But I honestly would believe he's the concept of Glohm at the very least, as it stops existing once he does.

Neutral on the Glohm stuff.

As for this...
Do remember:

The Soli-Tree is the source of all of the Glohm, dreams, and flowers (referred to as "Reclusa's locus of loneliness that stands at the center of the world (Concordia, a parallel world)"), which Reclusa scales to (he made it, refers to it as his "little toy".) This is not remotely a simple matter of destroying the source. This "source" directly scales to each and every one of these dreams, and this same source is something Reclusa whipped up in less than a minute after his awakening.

Thanks for coming btw!

 

[ActuallySpaceMan42]

How about the stabilization? Also, considering the Soli-tree is the source of everything, it's creation more likely than not coincides with all the dream worlds being created at once, and utilized slightly sporadically.

Okay, so the tree is the source of all the dreams/universes? In that case, scaling to all of them is fine, I suppose.

 

[Galactidot]

Okay, so the tree is the source of all the dreams/universes? In that case, scaling to all of them is fine, I suppose.

Yup. And to boot, Reclusa's death makes everything remotely related to him disappear!

 

[Galactidot]

Okay, so the tree is the source of all the dreams/universes? In that case, scaling to all of them is fine, I suppose.

So, what's your vote?

 

[ActuallySpaceMan42]

I agree with 2-C

 

[Armorchompy]

Okay, so the tree is the source of all the dreams/universes? In that case, scaling to all of them is fine, I suppose.

The issue with the feat is that none of this is done directly. The universal creation is a verse mechanic of the Mario verse- any and all dreams are (currently considered to be) Low 2-C universes. Reclusa simply achieves it by putting people to sleep, and then when he is destroyed the means of keeping them asleep are too, which means they wake up. This is a tier 2 feat but that's just because anyone sleeping in Mario is a tier 2 feat, it doesn't scale to anything.

 

[Starsprite53]

The issue with the feat is that none of this is done directly. The universal creation is a verse mechanic of the Mario verse- any and all dreams are (currently considered to be) Low 2-C universes. Reclusa simply achieves it by putting people to sleep, and then when he is destroyed the means of keeping them asleep are too, which means they wake up. This is a tier 2 feat but that's just because anyone sleeping in Mario is a tier 2 feat, it doesn't scale to anything.

Okay no, this is just wrong. Reclusa literally says he created the dream worlds.(Along with the fact that he can control the flow of time and characters inside those dreams, and with Mario and Luigi sharing the same dream which is unusual)That’s his whole plan, creating these sweet dreams to keep people distracted and lonely while he tears apart the world. You’re telling me that hundreds of people just happened to synchronizally dream their deepest desires in perfect harmony, all at once, without Reclusa’s direct hand in it? C’mon, really?
And look, even from a scientific standpoint, during REM sleep, your brain does not create elaborate, consistent perfect desire dreams, especially for everyone at the same time.

 

[Armorchompy]

Okay no, this is just wrong. Reclusa literally says he created the dream worlds.

Yes, through the indirect means which I described. Ambiguous wording isn't evidence against what is obviously shown to happen in the game.

That’s his whole plan, creating these sweet dreams to keep people distracted and lonely while he tears apart the world. You’re telling me that hundreds of people just happened to synchronizally dream their deepest desires in perfect harmony, all at once, without Reclusa’s direct hand in it? C’mon, really?

He still gets to shape them and everything, that's the point of the flowers and the Glohm - they're like dream control machines. He obviously has control over what his victims dream, that doesn't mean he can create them out of nothing with his own power, that's just never implied.

And look, even from a scientific standpoint, during REM sleep, your brain does not create elaborate, consistent perfect desire dreams, especially for everyone at the same time.

This just objectively isn't how dreams work in Mario, and doesn't matter anyways because there is an external influence modifying them so they fit Reclusa's desires.

I'm not quite sure IRL science applies perfectly to the dreams of talking mushrooms, rocks and clouds, anyways.

 

[Starsprite53]

Hmm, I understand your arguments and where you're coming from.
But there are details I refuse to ignore, I will tackle them later.

 

[Galactidot]

The issue with the feat is that none of this is done directly. The universal creation is a verse mechanic of the Mario verse- any and all dreams are (currently considered to be) Low 2-C universes. Reclusa simply achieves it by putting people to sleep, and then when he is destroyed the means of keeping them asleep are too, which means they wake up. This is a tier 2 feat but that's just because anyone sleeping in Mario is a tier 2 feat, it doesn't scale to anything.

We already discussed this... Even if simply were to mass-warp a ton of dream worlds at once, they not only ABSOLUTELY disappear when he dies, but he still modified them enough to create an EMPTY VOID in one of them. An empty void doesn't appear when modifying something. It shows up when CREATING something. He at the very least made them anew, and these things are certainly gone. Are we sitting here implying Nintendo wants a bunch of messed up dream worlds still floating about? Why would those be the only things relating to him that survived his death? THE VERY EXISTENCE of Glohm vanished when he died.

Yes, through the indirect means which I described. Ambiguous wording isn't evidence against what is obviously shown to happen in the game.

There is no ambiguous wording here. If the game says he made them, you're the one theory crafting saying he simply modified them.

He still gets to shape them and everything, that's the point of the flowers and the Glohm - they're like dream control machines. He obviously has control over what his victims dream, that doesn't mean he can create them out of nothing with his own power, that's just never implied.

Yet he can reduce them into voids of nothingness? This is what I meant when I brought up the "dream world slots" earlier.

This just objectively isn't how dreams work in Mario, and doesn't matter anyways because there is an external influence modifying them so they fit Reclusa's desires.

Reclusa is a pretty strong influence to be able to passively modify hundreds to millions of dream worlds in such drastic ways he can form voids of nothingness out of them.

I'm not quite sure IRL science applies perfectly to the dreams of talking mushrooms, rocks and clouds, anyways.

You're the one trying to use science to explain why Reclusa can't make the dreams? When there are not only statements, but heaps of evidence suggesting so?

 

[ActuallySpaceMan42]

The issue with the feat is that none of this is done directly. The universal creation is a verse mechanic of the Mario verse- any and all dreams are (currently considered to be) Low 2-C universes. Reclusa simply achieves it by putting people to sleep, and then when he is destroyed the means of keeping them asleep are too, which means they wake up. This is a tier 2 feat but that's just because anyone sleeping in Mario is a tier 2 feat, it doesn't scale to anything.

I see your point, but in that case, wouldn't any form of Dream Manipulation be akin to Low 2-C Space-Time Manipulation?

 

[Galactidot]

I see your point, but in that case, wouldn't any form of Dream Manipulation be akin to Low 2-C Space-Time Manipulation?

On a mass scale too

 

[Armorchompy]

I see your point, but in that case, wouldn't any form of Dream Manipulation be akin to Low 2-C Space-Time Manipulation?

Sure, yeah. But it wouldn't scale to the AP of the people using the ability, it's just an inherent property of anyone dreaming. You could just as easily create a dream universe by knocking out a Toad with a hammer or by shooting him with a tranq dart, albeit not alter it.

We already discussed this... Even if simply were to mass-warp a ton of dream worlds at once, they not only ABSOLUTELY disappear when he dies

Don't say "we discussed this" like there was a conclusion to that discussion. First off, no, they don't "absolutely" disappear, you assume they disappear with frankly little more reasoning than "it'd make sense".

but he still modified them enough to create an EMPTY VOID in one of them. An empty void doesn't appear when modifying something.

Says who? There aren't any pre-established rules to how dream universes work. If you have full control over what's inside a person's dream, "nothing at all" is a valid thing to input.

He at the very least made them anew, and these things are certainly gone. Are we sitting here implying Nintendo wants a bunch of messed up dream worlds still floating about?

What? I don't know what Nintendo wants, you don't know what Nintendo wants, and frankly if I had to guess I don't think they care. What the hell kinda argument is this, "it'd make me feel bad if the nightmare worlds still existed, despite them not doing any harm to others"?

Why would those be the only things relating to him that survived his death? THE VERY EXISTENCE of Glohm vanished when he died.

Why would they be destroyed? If the dreams vanish naturally when the dreamer wakes up, then it's not a feat at all, and if they remain independently there's no reason to assume that they just randomly exploded beyond trying to force some assumed logic to a fictional phenomena whose rules we don't know.

And by the way, even if one were to assume caused the Ghlom's destruction made the nightmare universes vanish, that still wouldn't be a feat. It's a textbook chain reaction.

Reclusa is a pretty strong influence to be able to passively modify hundreds to millions of dream worlds in such drastic ways he can form voids of nothingness out of them.

Yes, obviously he is, that's what the damn game is about.

There is no ambiguous wording here. If the game says he made them, you're the one theory crafting saying he simply modified them.

Drastically altering something is still "making it", nobody would say that the architect of the Empire State Building didn't "make it" because the ground it was built on and the concrete and the glass used didn't exist before him.

You're the one trying to use science to explain why Reclusa can't make the dreams? When there are not only statements, but heaps of evidence suggesting so?

Trust me that science has very much never been a central part of my arguments. Meanwhile yours have primarily relied on pretending random assumptions of how the verse's mechanics operate are common sense.

 

[Zyurtunder13]

Sure, yeah. But it wouldn't scale to the AP of the people using the ability, it's just an inherent property of anyone dreaming. You could just as easily create a dream universe by knocking out a Toad with a hammer or by shooting him with a tranq dart, albeit not alter it.

Don't say "we discussed this" like there was a conclusion to that discussion. First off, no, they don't "absolutely" disappear, you assume they disappear with frankly little more reasoning than "it'd make sense".

Says who? There aren't any pre-established rules to how dream universes work. If you have full control over what's inside a person's dream, "nothing at all" is a valid thing to input.

What? I don't know what Nintendo wants, you don't know what Nintendo wants, and frankly if I had to guess I don't think they care. What the hell kinda argument is this, "it'd make me feel bad if the nightmare worlds still existed, despite them not doing any harm to others"?

Why would they be destroyed? If the dreams vanish naturally when the dreamer wakes up, then it's not a feat at all, and if they remain independently there's no reason to assume that they just randomly exploded beyond trying to force some assumed logic to a fictional phenomena whose rules we don't know.

And by the way, even if one were to assume caused the Ghlom's destruction made the nightmare universes vanish, that still wouldn't be a feat. It's a textbook chain reaction.

Yes, obviously he is, that's what the damn game is about.

Drastically altering something is still "making it", nobody would say that the architect of the Empire State Building didn't "make it" because the ground it was built on and the concrete and the glass used didn't exist before him.

Trust me that science has very much never been a central part of my arguments. Meanwhile yours have primarily relied on pretending random assumptions of how the verse's mechanics operate are common sense.

Not going to lie to you Armor, but your arguments are really dumb, they're based entirely in assumptions, appealing to baseless "theories" and completely ignoring what's actually said and stated in the game

 

[Galactidot]

Sure, yeah. But it wouldn't scale to the AP of the people using the ability, it's just an inherent property of anyone dreaming.

Reclusa is able to do this on a mass scale, an "inherent property" being full control over universes. He should scale to that.

Don't say "we discussed this" like there was a conclusion to that discussion. First off, no, they don't "absolutely" disappear, you assume they disappear with frankly little more reasoning than "it'd make sense".

We see everything relating to Reclusa disappearing, yet you're the one assuming that these dream worlds would miraculously survive --- despite the game not shutting up about how everything he's made is gone.

Says who? There aren't any pre-established rules to how dream universes work. If you have full control over what's inside a person's dream, "nothing at all" is a valid thing to input.

So he just deleted part of a universe with a mere thought --- he doesn't scale to that?

What? I don't know what Nintendo wants, you don't know what Nintendo wants, and frankly if I had to guess I don't think they care. What the hell kinda argument is this, "it'd make me feel bad if the nightmare worlds still existed, despite them not doing any harm to others"?

This is based on what happened in the PAST when something relating to a villain vanishes after their death. Matter of fact, this wouldn't be necessary if you didn't assume a random exception to begin with.

Why would they be destroyed? If the dreams vanish naturally when the dreamer wakes up, then it's not a feat at all, and if they remain independently there's no reason to assume that they just randomly exploded beyond trying to force some assumed logic to a fictional phenomena whose rules we don't know.

Dreams don't vanish when you wake up. Heck, have you every played Dream Team? The game makes a whole point about waking up, returning to a dream world, and using dream eggs to expand it. The dream world and everyone in it remains. This is in Driftwood Shore.

Even more so, we see that pillows and beds can host their own dream worlds. You run into the same outcome either way from here:

If it's the host's dream world, then Reclusa mass-modified MANY of these by MERELY THINKING.

If the dream worlds are sourced from the flowers, they vanish along with the flowers. To boot, Reclusa made these dream worlds from scratch in this situation. There is evidence for this situation

And by the way, even if one were to assume caused the Glohm's destruction made the nightmare universes vanish, that still wouldn't be a feat. It's a textbook chain reaction.

Again, these happened at the same time. The following things vanished when Reclusa died, not necessarily in a chain reaction. These all vanished simultaneously, yet independently from each other, when he died.

• Reclusa-based enemies
• The Soli-tree
• Glohm
• Reclusa's flowers

Trust me that science has very much never been a central part of my arguments. Meanwhile yours have primarily relied on pretending random assumptions of how the verse's mechanics operate are common sense.

"Primarily relied on" and it's just following the rules established from the games beforehand? We already know many of the things you're questioning, yet you just make up something else that either contradicts one of your previous arguments or already has an answer?

 

[ActuallySpaceMan42]

Sure, yeah. But it wouldn't scale to the AP of the people using the ability, it's just an inherent property of anyone dreaming. You could just as easily create a dream universe by knocking out a Toad with a hammer or by shooting him with a tranq dart, albeit not alter it.

Hmm, this is a weird case. Because I can see what you mean, in a normal fight, their dream manipulation wouldn't work, since they're not in a dream, even if dreams are a universe. Still, I think it's worth putting in AP, since it is a universe-level feat. So maybe 2-C with Dream Manipulation, or within Dream Universes, something to that effect?

 

[JPTheGamer]

Still, I think it's worth putting in AP, since it is a universe-level feat. So maybe 2-C with Dream Manipulation, or within Dream Universes, something to that effect?

Yeah, I share these same sentiments.

 

[Galactidot]

Yeah, I share these same sentiments.

This makes sense, but I do have a question...

"The cosmology within the Dream Stone during the events of the game is equal to around 100,000 universes, giving it a rating of Multiverse level (2-B)"
https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User_blog:CloverDragon03/Mario_and_Luigi:_Dream_Team_-_Dream_Stone_Cosmology_(Brief_Summary)

We see Dreamy Bowser not only hits 2-B from the dream stone, even while it only has 100k universes (Reclusa outnumbers this significantly)
But he retains 2-B in the real world? Why is this?

 

[JPTheGamer]

This makes sense, but I do have a question...

"The cosmology within the Dream Stone during the events of the game is equal to around 100,000 universes, giving it a rating of Multiverse level (2-B)"
https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/U..._Team_-_Dream_Stone_Cosmology_(Brief_Summary)

We see Dreamy Bowser not only hits 2-B from the dream stone, even while it only has 100k universes (Reclusa outnumbers this significantly)
But he retains 2-B in the real world? Why is this?

Beats me.

 

[Galactidot]

Beats me.

I'd be fine with 2-C/2-B in dreams, but considering this situation (and him having similar feats and statements to Dreamy Bowser) shouldn't we use 2-C/2-B baseline?

 

[JPTheGamer]

I'd be fine with 2-C/2-B in dreams, but considering this situation (and him having similar feats and statements to Dreamy Bowser) shouldn't we use 2-C/2-B baseline?

We tried arguing for 2-B or 2-C baseline Mario Bros, but it was rejected several times. However, I'm planning on making a CRT to propose said tiers under strict circumstances.

 

[Galactidot]

We tried arguing for 2-B or 2-C baseline Mario Bros, but it was rejected several times. However, I'm planning on making a CRT to propose said tiers under strict circumstances.

Oh, I mean baseline for Reclusa

Actually, on the topic of that, his name might be noteworthy
I tried to translate the etymology myself --- I think this is correct, can anyone verify? It would explain a lot of his strength (and maybe, just maybe, give some credence to conceptual?)

 

[Armorchompy]

Not going to lie to you Armor, but your arguments are really dumb, they're based entirely in assumptions, appealing to baseless "theories" and completely ignoring what's actually said and stated in the game

Not going to lie to you Zyurtunder, these are my exact thoughts regarding the opposition's arguments, so there isn't really any point to saying this.

Actually, on the topic of that, his name might be noteworthy
I tried to translate the etymology myself --- I think this is correct, can anyone verify? It would explain a lot of his strength (and maybe, just maybe, give some credence to conceptual?)

First off: someone's name isn't indicative of what they do. My name means "excellent warrior" and I have never been in a fight my whole life. Second, as an italian, I have never heard "Ciani" as a name and even reading it now I would never guess that's what it means. Even if we assumed that these Japanese developers somehow knew of this very obscure italian surname you couldn't make the assumption that's what they mean. ALSO this is a prayer, not a statement of the power of whoever has this name. ALSO I think it might be wrong anyways, I looked into the etymology of the name and all I could find was that it might be a reference to the color cyan.

So this is like, really not a worthwhile avenue of argument.

Hmm, this is a weird case. Because I can see what you mean, in a normal fight, their dream manipulation wouldn't work, since they're not in a dream, even if dreams are a universe. Still, I think it's worth putting in AP, since it is a universe-level feat. So maybe 2-C with Dream Manipulation, or within Dream Universes, something to that effect?

Not really a reason for them to scale to tier 2 even just in the dream universes. And while dreams are universes (again, that's the current consensus, I've seen the arguments and I actually think there's some flaws in them), the logical conclusion of that would be adding a "Low 2-C via sleeping" rating to every single mario profile - which I'm sure you'd agree is a bit silly.

 

[Armorchompy]

Reclusa is able to do this on a mass scale, an "inherent property" being full control over universes. He should scale to that.

No he shouldn't, because it's done by controlling the minds of the subjects, not directly.

So he just deleted part of a universe with a mere thought --- he doesn't scale to that?

No he shouldn't, because it's done by controlling the minds of the subjects, not directly.

If it's the host's dream world, then Reclusa mass-modified MANY of these by MERELY THINKING.

Which isn't an AP feat, because it's done by controlling the minds of the subjects, not directly.

We see everything relating to Reclusa disappearing, yet you're the one assuming that these dream worlds would miraculously survive --- despite the game not shutting up about how everything he's made is gone.

This is based on what happened in the PAST when something relating to a villain vanishes after their death. Matter of fact, this wouldn't be necessary if you didn't assume a random exception to begin with.

Dreams don't vanish when you wake up. Heck, have you every played Dream Team? The game makes a whole point about waking up, returning to a dream world, and using dream eggs to expand it. The dream world and everyone in it remains. This is in Driftwood Shore.

Again, these happened at the same time. The following things vanished when Reclusa died, not necessarily in a chain reaction. These all vanished simultaneously, yet independently from each other, when he died.

• Reclusa-based enemies
• The Soli-tree
• Glohm
• Reclusa's flowers

It doesn't matter that you have some argument that the dreams might have vanished. Saying "it'd make sense if it happened" isn't enough- you need to prove it did. I don't even think it's an unreasonable claim but it is a baseless one. And even if we went with it one could more easily claim that the dreams (like everything else affected by Reclusa) simply returned to an uncorrupted state (after all we currently treat Mario characters as having only one permanent dream universe pertaining to each of them, it just being destroyed doesn't make much sense).

If the dream worlds are sourced from the flowers, they vanish along with the flowers. To boot, Reclusa made these dream worlds from scratch in this situation. There is evidence for this situation

Ok, so destroying the flowers is enough to make the dreams fade, which means that's not a tier 2 feat.

"Primarily relied on" and it's just following the rules established from the games beforehand? We already know many of the things you're questioning, yet you just make up something else that either contradicts one of your previous arguments or already has an answer?

You don't "know" the things I'm questioning, you've fossilized on a specific interpretation of the facts and decided it's the only valid one. I am not going let the validity of my arguments be impugned by someone trying to use things like the possible etymology of a name and "I think Nintendo wouldn't want this to be canon" as arguments.

Any agreements you're going to get now, a few months and pages into the thread, are just from people who won't even read the whole discussion - which is why almost no staff member has commented lately and why you'll struggle to get more. I've made a pretty clear argument as to why there isn't sufficient evidence for the ratings. Whether you acknowledge that or not is secondary.

 

[ActuallySpaceMan42]

Not really a reason for them to scale to tier 2 even just in the dream universes. And while dreams are universes (again, that's the current consensus, I've seen the arguments and I actually think there's some flaws in them), the logical conclusion of that would be adding a "Low 2-C via sleeping" rating to every single mario profile - which I'm sure you'd agree is a bit silly.

I mean, it would be like scaling to a certain Tier, within a Verse Location. It can be listed, but isn't widely applicable since most versus matches happen in neutral territory.

I think it's a good compromise, and the OP seems willing to agree to it.

 

[Armorchompy]

Also I just realized, the vote tally on the thread is OP absolutely disingenuous. Tagging all staff members involved so that if I accidentally misrepresent their positions they can say so, but these seem to be the actual stances.

Armorchompy - I obviously disagree.

@FinePoint - Suggests a "possibly", which can imply either agreement or neutrality. Would like if FP could specify.

@DarkDragonMedeus - Disagrees. Thinks the Dream World stuff is a chain reaction, but suggests that Reclusa does still have Multiversal range.

I mean, it would be like scaling to a certain Tier, within a Verse Location. It can be listed, but isn't widely applicable since most versus matches happen in neutral territory.

I think it's a good compromise, and the OP seems willing to agree to it.

Under what reasoning, though? Like, even if there was tier 2 reality warping, why would it scale to people's physicals in the dreams? I'm not even like asking for more proof, I just don't see where that's even been discussed, it's not really related to what we've been talking about. I'm just confused about where you got that.

 

[ActuallySpaceMan42]

Under what reasoning, though? Like, even if there was tier 2 reality warping, why would it scale to people's physicals in the dreams? I'm not even like asking for more proof, I just don't see where that's even been discussed, it's not really related to what we've been talking about. I'm just confused about where you got that.

Is the OP trying to scale this to physical feats?

All I’m saying is: dreams are considered universes in this verse, which is the basis for OP’s Tier 2. I understand that, since it’s a verse-specific mechanic, you might think it doesn’t belong on profiles.

However, it’s still a legitimate feat within the story, and profiles should reflect their verse accurately before being adjusted to wiki standards.

So, I’m suggesting we list Tier 2, but clarify that it applies “within Dream Universes” or “with Dream Manipulation.”

It would not be applicable in Versus Battles; however, it would still be indexible.

 

[JPTheGamer]

So, I’m suggesting we list Tier 2, but clarify that it applies “within Dream Universes” or “with Dream Manipulation

I'm on board with this.

 

[Starsprite53]

Not going to lie to you Armor, but your arguments are really dumb, they're based entirely in assumptions, appealing to baseless "theories" and completely ignoring what's actually said and stated in the game

Can you not? Dude at least help arguing then you can say something about the arguments being dumb.
That's why no one take Mario scalers seriously on this wiki, yapping instead of actually targeting the actual points (Tho you ain't completely wrong for saying the arguments being assumptions tho, but at least try to back it up)