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This restoration is weird, and while it can undo erasure, we've never really seen it regen damage. Sonic died from being shot through the chest by Mephiles. Granted his spirit lived on even without his body, and eventually got revived by the Emeralds (Which do actually have healing properties, tho I don't remember if 1 alone does). I do think Sonic could survive the bio manip but I dunno how well. You might be right about the rings being transferred the damage his body would take tho since they do take any damage he would've took from an attack. Granted Rings can be removed I think.
Rings are Standard Equipment. I think Sonic wouldn't instantly combust, and it'll actually take some time. Regardless, Makima did it Bio Hax like twice and prefers to use Bang anyways
DC can be limited to a small area even for Tier 2's. Take Goku for instance who can condense the area of effect to not even affect the building he's in. Or only destroy mountain's with his attacks. Sonic however does have feats that would show he has more than enough DC.
Well, since Sonic shows feats of DC, I don't see a reason to continue this line of talk. Thanks for posting those.
Not really comparable? Everytime Makima has used her stare the target gets knocked out or even dies in seconds.
All the examples given for Sonic is for stuff he got a resistance to or that isn't really quantifiable?

Would you say Sonic's Willpower lets him still fight if he lost his head, it's kinda similar to that.
Because the people she used the stare on are fodder humans with no special abilities to speak of? The resistance is pretty quantifiable when it's directly stated on Sonic's profile
The way you're describing the Restoration it's as if Sonic just has a bootleg version of Mid-Godly regen, which I'm like 88% sure isn't the case, considering Sonic has been injured before and Low Regen is worthy enough to be listed ya know?
Like, yea, the restoration works like that.
Don't take my word for it, but pretty sure the consensus on that Restoration is that it's not combat-applicable.
What consensus? I didn't see anyone besides you directly oppose Restoration as being combat-applicable
Didn't deny that, but HOW much faster/stronger does he get?

Classic Sonic jumps to 2-C just by being near to his Modern counterpart, and never does so when facing the dozens of bosses in his games.
Because he's already substantially faster than the bosses and continues to get faster regardless?
Hell, Modern Sonic doesn't take a step and go from struggling against, say Zavok to one-shotting him, or the countless other foes who don't have AD lol
I'm arguing that numerous, multiple other steps cause his speed to become higher to the point it landslides into a blitz. Nothing has disproved this by the way.
Again, pretty sure the consensus on the AD is that it's really only important when he's at a major disadvantage.
Again, what consensus? No one has directly opposed that Sonic's AD doesn't work like how I'm describing. LaserPrecision seemed to have nothing to say. Gushy didn't call it out. Regardless, "consensus" doesn't matter when it's directly stated on the profile that Sonic's AD works passively. Else it would contradict what it means (i.e, why would it be listed as passive if it only works when someone is stronger than him?)
I'm arguing that it's not a stomp match? Like these arguments aren't cause I think Makima wins or whatever, but cause it ain't a stomp lol
If you want to insist Makima doesn't get Stomped here, then Sonic FRA. The sheer amount of abilities and defenses Sonic has triumphs any conceivable thing Makima can or would ever do.
 
The x400 thing was removed for being calc stacking
It's legit nowhere on the profile anymore, don't know why we're bringing it up here
 
Again, what consensus? No one has directly opposed that Sonic's AD doesn't work like how I'm describing. LaserPrecision seemed to have nothing to say. Gushy didn't call it out. Regardless, "consensus" doesn't matter when it's directly stated on the profile that Sonic's AD works passively. Else it would contradict what it means (i.e, why would it be listed as passive if it only works when someone is stronger than him?)
His passive AD isn't as fast as his Reactive AD. I didn't say much because it doesn't matter much in the fight. His reactive AD lets him jump from Tier 5 and FTL to Tier 2 and Infinite in speed instantly (Literally instant considering the infinite speed nature of it). But his passive speed AD is gradual and lets him run faster and faster the more he runs. But it's not by an absurd amount. I think he gets maybe a few times faster after a good while of running? I haven't played the roblox game in a while so I forget.

I want to note that as a massive Sonic fan/supporter I can potentially see Makima's bio-hax damaging Sonic's brain working. I think he can endure it given Sonic can survive as just a spirit/the wind where he supposedly has consciousness meaning he MAY not need his brain for that facet as much (He was able to endure his soul being slowly burnt up, and was able to stand strong even when his soul was almost completely extinguished despite it taking a huge physical toll on him which is the source of his consciousness). And just overall some of the pain/injuries he has endured. But I think there's a limit since I don't recall him explicitly dealing with severe brain damage. He's been knocked unconscious too (Granted from someone Tier 1, but whatever, he also got knocked out after getting beat up for like 3 minutes straight by Infinite). But he's also staved off unconsciousness after being struck countless times by people way stronger than him, and getting right back up after being put down through willpower alone (Merlina). Sonic may arguably have methods to heal from the extent of brain damage he suffers, but I'm not entirely sure.

Either way, I think he can endure the brain damage if he gets hit by Makima's attack long enough to win. So no matter what I do see Sonic winning. Not voting, not saying it's a stomp, just giving my opinion.
 
The x400 thing was removed for being calc stacking
It's legit nowhere on the profile anymore, don't know why we're bringing it up here
Is it a faulty calc because the presumption was wrong or because the math was wrong?

Edit: Ohhhh
The math wasn't wrong. It was just considered calc-stacking so it's not allowed to be on the profile.

However, it's being brought up because that difference would still exist when Sonic uses the spin dash. Makima would be as slow to Sonic as the robots were as slow to Sonic in Prime. In which the calculated amp is nearly 400x. So while I can't say it's a 400x increase, Sonic is going to see Makima as that slow, and move as far as he did against her as he did the robots. Which is to say it's basically a 400x increase regardless.
 
The math wasn't wrong. It was just considered calc-stacking so it's not allowed to be on the profile.

However, it's being brought up because that difference would still exist when Sonic uses the spin dash. Makima would be as slow to Sonic as the robots were as slow to Sonic in Prime. In which the calculated amp is nearly 400x. So while I can't say it's a 400x increase, Sonic is going to see Makima as that slow, and move as far as he did against her as he did the robots. Which is to say it's basically a 400x increase regardless.
He statued people who were blitzing him, there's no number to it really.
Sorta similar to how Deku, despite blitzing Shigaraki (Which if we wanted to use the same method for makes him MFTL) still will get outspeed by FTL characters.
 
He statued people who were blitzing him, there's no number to it really.
Sorta similar to how Deku blitzing Shigaraki (Which if we wanted to use the same method for makes him MFTL) still gets outspeed by FTL and more people.
Yeah, but upscaling exists based on huge unquantifiable increases. It's why you can go to the next tier because of it. I'll give an example.

Let's say Deku is .8c. His opponent is 5c with no amps. If Deku has an amp that lets him statue and perception blitz someone across 500 kilometers and throw 50 billion punches before they can perceive it, Deku SHOULD be treated as faster than the 5c dude with that amp. Solely because of the fact that the dude would not even come close to being able to replicate Deku's feat, even if the amp doesn't have a defined increase. It's just common sense that both sides should be able to agree upon. The amp's speed would require far more speed than 5c even if it isn't given a multiplier (Or if the multiplier is given but makes no sense for the feat).

Otherwise you're arguing if Sonic used the amp on her, she would be moving much faster than the people Sonic used it on who were faster than Sonic as opposed to equal (Which Makima is due to equalization). Which is contradictory to the amp it's been shown to have.
 
This is just a stomp though, I'm not sure why everyone just started wearing blindfolds all of a sudden.
You started debating when everyone said from the beginning it was a stomp

So don't do that again when Sonic clearly stomps just by looking his page, not even needing to play any games
 
Legit how is this a stomp, even if Sonic had the now gone x400 amp, he needs to actually use it and decide to just immediately kill Makima with a large enough AoE attack.
The x400 amp in question is just referring to him virtually statueing those comparable to him, which the Darkness Devil (Who Makima's reaction scales to) also basically did.

Like if we applied the same leniency to Makima her reactions would also end up being hundreds of times her regular speed too lol
 
Classic Sonic resists bio manip
You mean this? The pollution water?
J79pVwB.png
 
Not only is it not even listed as Bio hax and just links to it cause we don't have a Dangerous Chemical page,
I don't see at all how being unaffected by polluted water is supposed to protect Sonic from Bio hax that makes his brain pop??
 
It's still biological manipulation. Chemicals do that.

By our current standards it's still biological manipulation unless someone tries to contest it as something different, but that would be for a staff discussion.
 
Yes, but there are levels to this.
Like does Izuru having a high tolerance to drugs (Which is listed as Poison Manip on his profile) protect him from Poison that can kill 17 Whales?
 
The bio hax is the main one rn
Sorry, because I led you on right there.

You see, if Makima's main win condition gets out-right ignored for the reasons I listed out earlier (even if you don't agree with the Restoration and Sonic Heal, which I get), bare minimum Willpower and the Ring's damage transferal will negate it.

This "main win condition," isn't something Makima actually does at this range (the range is 4 km). What Makima would actually do is teleport away and let her controlled minions handle the work. Makima will take Sonic seriously because he just no-diff resisted her Conquest, something only ONE person (I think two) did in the entire story. That is Angel, and I think Denji. However, this strategy is useless since Sonic will passively restore the minds of the controlled Devil Hunters, and basically thwart Makima's Mind Manipulation singlehandedly. The range on the Restoration is like 6-D, or really, REALLY big. As in, Sonic restores entire space-time continuums big. So, Sonic causes a whole clutter**** of problems and Makima ironically loses a lot of her controlled abilities via Conquest not being on her minions anymore. Regardless, Makima would try to read Sonic's mind with Clairvoyance (pretty sure she fails but I have no evidence for that, but Sonic can beat people who know his every move so ehhhh), and just try to crush him to death with TK. TK will fail (AP diff), she'll move on to BFR (will fail because Sonic can travel through dimensions via running), then try to use petrification (Sonic resists), then really just start to throw stuff at Sonic to see what works. Bio Hax will never come into play because she doesn't have the range (Bio Hax is only shown to work in at several meters, not an entire 4 kilometers).

Makima simply loses in the quick draw. Makima has to cycle through multiple different abilities, before landing on Bio Hax, and said Bio Hax is negated outright, so there's no reason for Makima to continue to do Bio Hax once she realizes it doesn't work. Once Sonic realizes Makima is no good (which, as an Extraordinary Genius combatant, should allow him to quickly figure out what's going on), Chaos Emeralds and Hax start being pulled out really quickly.

Even in the most generous argument for Makima, we have to assume Sonic does absolutely nothing and has absolutely no abilities to stop Makima from killing him, which I don't think I need to say that it's completely wrong. Blood-lust Makima, the result is still the same.
Not only is it not even listed as Bio hax and just links to it cause we don't have a Dangerous Chemical page,
I don't see at all how being unaffected by polluted water is supposed to protect Sonic from Bio hax that makes his brain pop??
Sonic can withstand having his cells deconstructed via Metal Virus so Makima's Bio Hax will scarcely kill Sonic before he does literally anything. LaserPrecision even said Sonic can endure Bio Hax just fine.
I want to note that as a massive Sonic fan/supporter I can potentially see Makima's bio-hax damaging Sonic's brain working. I think he can endure it given Sonic can survive as just a spirit/the wind where he supposedly has consciousness meaning he MAY not need his brain for that facet as much (He was able to endure his soul being slowly burnt up, and was able to stand strong even when his soul was almost completely extinguished despite it taking a huge physical toll on him which is the source of his consciousness). And just overall some of the pain/injuries he has endured. But I think there's a limit since I don't recall him explicitly dealing with severe brain damage. He's been knocked unconscious too (Granted from someone Tier 1, but whatever, he also got knocked out after getting beat up for like 3 minutes straight by Infinite). But he's also staved off unconsciousness after being struck countless times by people way stronger than him, and getting right back up after being put down through willpower alone (Merlina). Sonic may arguably have methods to heal from the extent of brain damage he suffers, but I'm not entirely sure.
 
This "main win condition," isn't something Makima actually does at this range (the range is 4 km). What Makima would actually do is teleport away and let her controlled minions handle the work.
Really doubt Makima would use her normal pawns against Sonic for obvious reason, like 1 or 2 sacrifices should confirm that they'd be useless against him, especially since Makima herself is already a blitz over all of them already.

That and she has actually used her Bio hax at long range before on multiple targets, so she doesn't need to be face-to-face with someone to do it.
Makima will take Sonic seriously because he just no-diff resisted her Conquest, something only ONE person (I think two) did in the entire story.
Dunno if that really helps Sonic, Makima definitely considers the Bio haxe as one of her strongest moves. Afterall, it was her trump card against the Darkness Devil, the Primal Fear that's "transcendent" compared to normal devils, never experienced death before and someone that Makima herself considers above her.
However, this strategy is useless since Sonic will passively restore the minds of the controlled Devil Hunters, and basically thwart Makima's Mind Manipulation singlehandedly. The range on the Restoration is like 6-D, or really, REALLY big. As in, Sonic restores entire space-time continuums big. So, Sonic causes a whole clutter**** of problems and Makima ironically loses a lot of her controlled abilities via Conquest not being on her minions anymore.
Feel like you're conflating the Restoration with a lot of stuff, when it looks like it's just a counter to EE really?
Like the minds that Makima control still exist, they're not erased or the like.

It also explicitly doesn't defend anyone near Sonic from getting mind controlled, considering this happened twice lol

Sonic can withstand having his cells deconstructed via Metal Virus so Makima's Bio Hax will scarcely kill Sonic before he does literally anything.
...over the course of 200 years, that arc if I recall only lasted a Month.

Some more Makima abilities that could be useful are also the Future Devil's Auto-precog which lets her see a few seconds into the future or Makima just uploading the knowledge of everything there is in the universe into his mind.
 
You started debating when everyone said from the beginning it was a stomp

So don't do that again when Sonic clearly stomps just by looking his page, not even needing to play any games
Don’t play the fool. If you read my messages, you could clearly see the reason why I argued for Makima. Most of the time I even confirmed that I didn’t have a definitive stance due to my lack of knowledge about Sonic. You could also clearly see that I dropped my stance after learning that Sonic is massively faster than Makima, thanks to his multiplier. This completely removes Makima’s one potential win con because she simply can’t use it.

Without my initial claim about Makima having superior reaction speeds, which was debunked, there’s essentially no way she even stands a chance here, especially against someone like Sonic. Based on the scans Lazer provided, I’d give Makima about 3 seconds at most before she's completely K.E eviscerated by Sonic.

There’s absolutely no scenario in which Makima can land an attack on Sonic before getting eviscerated. There's not even a likely scenario where she can win, she just can't.
 
Don’t play the fool. If you read my messages, you could clearly see the reason why I argued for Makima. Most of the time I even confirmed that I didn’t have a definitive stance due to my lack of knowledge about Sonic. You could also clearly see that I dropped my stance after learning that Sonic is massively faster than Makima, thanks to his multiplier. This completely removes Makima’s one potential win con because she simply can’t use it.

Without my initial claim about Makima having superior reaction speeds, which was debunked, there’s essentially no way she even stands a chance here, especially against someone like Sonic. Based on the scans Lazer provided, I’d give Makima about 3 seconds at most before she's completely K.E eviscerated by Sonic.

There’s absolutely no scenario in which Makima can land an attack on Sonic before getting eviscerated. There's not even a likely scenario where she can win, she just can't.
Omg the speed amp is accepted as x4 and x8, but scales massively above said value because it statued people that are around that value.
Makima has reaction speed that's about x40 her regular speed, over x10 Sonic's actually accepted speed amps and scales to people who statue her regular speed.

This is also assuming that Sonic, would legit just look at Makima and immediately just end her immediately, you know, THIS Sonic.
idw-sonic-wont-kill-anyone-while-aosth-is-fine-committing-v0-uy9hf7vb4vu91.jpg
 
Would respond but seems like this match-up is joever.

Match couldn't be added either way. Makima winning via having higher perception speed to use Bio Hax comes into direct contention with Speed Equalization rules dictating faster characters can't lose to speeds they wouldn't normally have trouble to.
 
Would respond but seems like this match-up is joever.

Match couldn't be added either way. Makima winning via having higher perception speed to use Bio Hax comes into direct contention with Speed Equalization rules dictating faster characters can't lose to speeds they wouldn't normally have trouble to
Any speed equalized match, in which a major reason a character loses is due to having a disadvantage against some speed value they usually wouldn't have a disadvantage against, may not be added to profiles.
Ehh it's only a problem if Makima wins the match going by the wording.
The reaction speed she has also just stops her from getting blitzed rather than letting her blitz herself.

Also Makima loses 2 of her matches if this is the case
 
comes into direct contention with Speed Equalization rules dictating faster characters can't lose to speeds they wouldn't normally have trouble to.
No, not really. She can just perceive things faster than Sonic and the attack in question starts inside Sonic. Anyway, I agree with you when you say it's a stomp either way. Makima is initially a whopping 30x faster in terms of reaction compared to Sonic with his multiplier. And considering that the "bio stare" is her go-to ability, there's no way Sonic doesn't just drop incapacitated as soon as the fight begins.

She also has no room to mess up due to the massive speed gap, so there's really nothing Sonic can do here. Even if you choose to ignore Makima's win cons and argue in favor of Sonic, the outcome stays the same. It just seems like this match simply isn't going to work out.
 
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