Low 1-C Base Sonic characters

[Hypercyber37]

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Everyone knows this statement. It was tried and rejected many times on the site because it was very contradictory to the enemys that exceeded the Heart Power of Super forms.

but why should this statement be completely thrown away just because it conflicts with characters at the Super form level? Can't it be used against enemies in forms that don't even affect Sonic's tier and don't have heart power?

or even besides these, isn't it used for enemies fighting against Base Sonic? Because Infinite fought against Base Sonic

If it works, I don't see any reason why the statement wouldn't work on the Void since we're already taking Sonic shuffle as canon and it happened long before sonic forces.


Agree:
Disagree:
Neutral:

 

[CloverDragon03]

There's no argument here

 

[Hypercyber37]

There's no argument here

?

 

[CloverDragon03]

Like, I don't really get what you're trying to argue. From what I can gather, you're suggesting only scaling specific characters, but there's no sort of explanation on who does and doesn't scale, and for what reason, and it just kinda seems like cherrypicking to hide an outlier

 

[McFriesGuy075]

This CRT is poorly made to argue Tier 1 base characters. There are more arguments than just that.

But I think it's also a bit too early to be arguing Tier 1. I'd suggest waiting until more upgrades arrive until the Classic cast is 2-C, or else everything's gonna get handwaved as an outlier.

 

[Hypercyber37]

Like, I don't really get what you're trying to argue. From what I can gather, you're suggesting only scaling specific characters, but there's no sort of explanation on who does and doesn't scale, and for what reason, and it just kinda seems like cherrypicking to hide an outlier

I already mentioned in the title that this is for base Sonic characters

Short summary

1. Void is Low 1-C on this site
2. Infinite argument only contradicts Super level enemies (at least on this site)
3. As you can see in the video, Void fights against Base characters.
4. Sonic forces takes place quite a long time after Shuffle

Solution: All base characters that can keep up with Infinite from Sonic forces onwards should be Low 1-C

 

[Hypercyber37]

This CRT is poorly made to argue Tier 1 base characters. There are more arguments than just that.

But I think it's also a bit too early to be arguing Tier 1. I'd suggest waiting until more upgrades arrive until the Classic cast is tier 2.

But isn't it pretty simple? Just throwing away the entire statement just because it conflicts with super form enemies?

Infinite is the strongest base Sonic enemy in Sonic Forces and should outmatch Void.

 

[McFriesGuy075]

But isn't it pretty simple? Just throwing away the entire statement just because it conflicts with super form enemies?

Infinite is the strongest base Sonic enemy in Sonic Forces and should outmatch Void.

That being the only argument is gonna get the entire thing outed as an outlier. It doesnt conflict with Super Forms by the way, peak Super Forms are 1-C, not Low 1-C.

All I'm saying is wait for more upgrades, and then we'll have the opportunity to use it alongside more feats and statements to support the rating.

 

[Hypercyber37]

When did I say super forms are low 1-C?

Wasn't it competing with multiple super forms that left heart power behind, in order to be defeated?

That being the only argument is gonna get the entire thing outed as an outlier. It doesnt conflict with Super Forms by the way, peak Super Forms are 1-C, not Low 1-C.

All I'm saying is wait for more upgrades, and then we'll have the opportunity to use it alongside more feats and statements to support the rating.

 

[McFriesGuy075]

Wasn't it competing with multiple super forms that left heart power behind, in order to be defeated?

What are you talking about? We don't use "heart power". Are you talking about emotions?

 

[Hypercyber37]

What are you talking about? We don't use "heart power". Are you talking about emotions?

Super forms's power increases depending on the level of his enemies.

 

[McFriesGuy075]

Super forms's power increases depending on the level of his enemies.

That's not how it works. The Super Form varies in power in proportion to emotions and conversion of thoughts into power.

An Analysis of the Chaos Emeralds

vsbattles.fandom.com

 

[Theuser789]

Disagree. The statment is too vague to apply it to Void only.

 

[Hypercyber37]

All base sonic villains?

Disagree. The statment is too vague to apply it to Void only.

 

[TokiNoOuja]

Didnt WoG like Flynn stated that the Infinite statements are just for promotional intent and not making him in the same level as Solaris,Time Eater or Dark Gaia??

 

[Omegabronic]

Disagree. The statment is too vague to apply it to Void only.

we already apply it to Base Sonic only on Sonic's and Infinite's profiles

 

[JJSliderman]

Infinite did go on to fight a super form, plus Sonic never actually surpassed him 1v1, nor the death egg robot, so there is room for him to only downscale and not surpass Solaris.

I think I’d rather do a tier 1 base thing on my own time though.

 

[Hypercyber37]

They are Super sonic's enemy

Didnt WoG like Flynn stated that the Infinite statements are just for promotional intent and not making him in the same level as Solaris,Time Eater or Dark Gaia??

Solaris,Time eater,Dark Gaia(1-C)>>>> Infinite (low 1-C)>Void (Low 1-C)

 

[Omegabronic]

Didnt WoG like Flynn stated that the Infinite statements are just for promotional intent and not making him in the same level as Solaris,Time Eater or Dark Gaia??

Since when is Flynn WoG on things he had no hands on?

 

[TokiNoOuja]

Since when is Flynn WoG on things he had no hands on?

As long it does'nt contradict the material

 

[Omegabronic]

As long it does'nt contradict the material

That's not how it works and you didn't answered my question

 

[TokiNoOuja]

That's not how it works and you didn't answered my question

Why not?he's part of the Team and said himself that his statements can be dismissed as long as it contradicts the prime material and nothing wrong about his statements on Infinite

 

[McFriesGuy075]

Ian Flynn said himself people assume he has far more authority then he actually does

 

[TheHedgememe]

I can't lie I could totally see an argument being made for Tier 1 base Sonic characters, but OP's post in particular doesn't do the former position any justice.

But things like this:

Infinite did go on to fight a super form, plus Sonic never actually surpassed him 1v1, nor the death egg robot, so there is room for him to only downscale and not surpass Solaris.

I think I’d rather do a tier 1 base thing on my own time though.

Then Shadow fighting Metal Overlord (who's already argued to be Tier 1 on here) in Shadow Gens, and probably some more instances would probably help the argument a lot more.

 

[JJSliderman]

Shadow doesn’t count, he had doom powers.

 

[TheHedgememe]

Ah, crap. You're right.

 

[Theuser789]

Infinite did go on to fight a super form, plus Sonic never actually surpassed him 1v1, nor the death egg robot, so there is room for him to only downscale and not surpass Solaris.

I think I’d rather do a tier 1 base thing on my own time though.

Speaking of it, it's better to make a thread adding a Speed Sim key to Infinite than continue this one.

 

[Snek]

I disagree with the statement because we either accept it and make Infinite 1-C or don't accept it and make Infinite 2-C. Because with a statement as simple as "Sonic's most powerful enemy" you can't just go halfway because if you say he's only low 1-C then the statement is false by default in which case why would we use it to begin with? Besides in Sonic Frontiers Tails still uses Dark Gaia as a standard of power to compare The End to which would make no sense at all if Infinite and by extension base Sonic were stronger than Dark Gaia.

 

[Omegabronic]

Why not?he's part of the Team

was he part of the team when he made the statement in question? Outside of things he says are him sharing what was told to him, he has said multiple times that the Bumblekast is only his personal view, aka, not usable at all per our WoG standards

and said himself that his statements can be dismissed as long as it contradicts the prime material and nothing wrong about his statements on Infinite

He never said to follow his statements unless contradicted by the prime material, he said the opposite even on multiple occasions

 

[Omegabronic]

I can't lie I could totally see an argument being made for Tier 1 base Sonic characters, but OP's post in particular doesn't do the former position any justice.

But things like this:


Then Shadow fighting Metal Overlord (who's already argued to be Tier 1 on here) in Shadow Gens, and probably some more instances would probably help the argument a lot more.

Shadow was amped during that time, so the MO fight doesn't matter for base forms

There are other statements to make it more consostent tho

 

[Omegabronic]

I disagree with the statement because we either accept it and make Infinite 1-C or don't accept it and make Infinite 2-C. Because with a statement as simple as "Sonic's most powerful enemy" you can't just go halfway because if you say he's only low 1-C then the statement is false by default in which case why would we use it to begin with?

Honestly don't see the problem with making him 1-C

Besides in Sonic Frontiers Tails still uses Dark Gaia as a standard of power to compare The End to which would make no sense at all if Infinite and by extension base Sonic were stronger than Dark Gaia.

Not really? A singular, casual attack, being that strong would still show power regardless, as a full attack >>> casual blasts

 

[Snek]

Honestly don't see the problem with making him 1-C

Alright let's start there does the Infinite promotional statement actually leave any room for him to be any other tier than 1-C if true why or why not?

Not really? A singular, casual attack, being that strong would still show power regardless, as a full attack >>> casual blasts

But here's the thing Tails said that thing sure packs a punch ie this is powerful and in response to Tails saying that Sonic immediately says they need to gather the Chaos Emeralds pronto and Tails agrees only based on what he saw and what he saw was on par with Dark Gaia easy.

So that in mind you could constrew Tails saying that thing packs a punch on par with Dark Gaia easy to simply mean in terms of destructive area. But that can't be the case because from what Tails saw The End only lit up an island while Dark Gaia can planet bust so this has to be a power level statement with The End (from what Tails saw) = Dark Gaia and even when being hyper casual The End should still be stronger than base Sonic.

Additionally Sonic never objects to this statement by saying actually I think this thing is Infinite tier or anything and just accepts the claim Tails made despite knowing how strong Dark Gaia is, knowing how strong the Ancients are and understanding that something wiped them out.

Last it's also telling that immediately after the Dark Gaia comparison Sonic suggests getting the Chaos Emeralds immediately which strongly suggests that Sonic still holds Dark Gaias power in high enough regard that being stronger than it warrants gathering the Chaos Emeralds which wouldn't be the case if he had long since surpassed Dark Gaia in his base form.

TLDR: Tails compares something that took out the Ancients weaponry (he doesn't know of the Titans yet but he believes the Ancients have more impressive tech than Eggman and should know that their Gaurdians can fight base Sonic) to Dark Gaia and not Infinite, Sonic doesn't correct him for the comparison despite having fought the Titans and immediately wants to gather the Chaos Emeralds when that comparison is made. All of this serves to imply that Dark Gaia is still held in high regard by Sonic as a threat that warrants Chaos Emeralds which would not be the case if Infinite was stronger than Dark Gaia.

 

[McFriesGuy075]

Alright let's start there does the Infinite promotional statement actually leave any room for him to be any other tier than 1-C if true why or why not?

Since Infinite doesn't face a Super Form in Forces we could just scale him above Void, which the cast already scales to in Shuffle. That's if we wanna be conservative with the statements though.

 

[Omegabronic]

Alright let's start there does the Infinite promotional statement actually leave any room for him to be any other tier than 1-C if true why or why not?

Prob not

But here's the thing Tails said that thing sure packs a punch ie this is powerful

yeah, Dark Gaia is powerful... doing such power with a casual attack is what is being complimented, Dark Gaia is only At most 1-C via scalling to a casual The End, so he inferior to him to some degree

and in response to Tails saying that Sonic immediately says they need to gather the Chaos Emeralds pronto and Tails agrees only based on what he saw and what he saw was on par with Dark Gaia easy.

Yes. A casual attack, don't see how that changes my point

So that in mind you could constrew Tails saying that thing packs a punch on par with Dark Gaia easy to simply mean in terms of destructive area.

it didn't even destroy the Island tho... you really couldn't

But that can't be the case because from what Tails saw The End only lit up an island while Dark Gaia can planet bust so this has to be a power level statement with The End (from what Tails saw) = Dark Gaia and even when being hyper casual The End should still be stronger than base Sonic.

nothing there implies it needs to be stronger than base Sonic, Tails as easily deduce from the fact that Sonic fought the Titans as Super Sonic + Such an extreme casual display of power. That Sonic would need to emeralds. It remains true either way

Additionally Sonic never objects to this statement by saying actually I think this thing is Infinite tier or anything

Which is not a proof of anything really? He could have simply not seeing the necessity to make another comparison

We don't know how much stronger Infinite is compared to the other tier 1s, so a casual display on that level is easily >> Infinite from their view, specially compared to the Titans they saw so far

and just accepts the claim Tails made despite knowing how strong Dark Gaia is, knowing how strong the Ancients are and understanding that something wiped them out.

Read above, the lack of a hypotetical statement is not proof against or for anything in this context

Last it's also telling that immediately after the Dark Gaia comparison Sonic suggests getting the Chaos Emeralds immediately which strongly suggests that Sonic still holds Dark Gaias power in high enough regard that being stronger than it warrants gathering the Chaos Emeralds which wouldn't be the case if he had long since surpassed Dark Gaia in his base form.

No? It shows that being so cassually on Dark Gaia's level is held in high regard... it says nothing on where Dark Gaia itself scales to them

TLDR: Tails compares something that took out the Ancients weaponry (he doesn't know of the Titans yet but he believes the Ancients have more impressive tech than Eggman and should know that their Gaurdians can fight base Sonic)

He knows of the Titans tho? Why are ypu saying he doesn't? The Knight was right there, so was the fact Sonic needed to go Super against the other Titans, and that Tails had information from the Titans via Cyber Space

to Dark Gaia and not Infinite

yeah? So? This doesn't show how he holds Infinite in comparison. We don't know why he used Dark Gaia as a comparison instead of, say, the Eggwizard, which is >>> Dark Gaia. So we know for a fact he isn't refering to the strongest enemies in the past

Sonic doesn't correct him for the comparison despite having fought the Titans

Corect him on what? He's not wrong

Plus are you trying to imply DG > The Titans? WoG puts them above the past enemies and they could fight The End at full power, while a very casual attack from it was compared to DG, so again, prove it was cause DG was the strongest they faced until now or your point makes no sense

and immediately wants to gather the Chaos Emeralds when that comparison is made

he also knows that the Titans lost to it? Aka the ones he needed the Chaos Emeralds to face? Again, doesn't prove much

. All of this serves to imply that Dark Gaia is still held in high regard by Sonic as a threat

No it doesn't, it shows that something very cassually on DG's level is held in high regards

that warrants Chaos Emeralds which would not be the case if Infinite was stronger than Dark Gaia.

The Titans, that lost to it, required the Chaos Emeralds, this, again, proves nothing about DG's level of power

 

[Omegabronic]

Since Infinite doesn't face a Super Form in Forces we could just scale him above Void, which the cast already scales to in Shuffle. That's if we wanna be conservative with the statements though.

Base Sonic is already above Super Form level in Forces... why limit like that?

 

[McFriesGuy075]

Base Sonic is already above Super Form level in Forces... why limit like that?

Only base Super Forms, right? He already scales above peak Super Forms in Forces?

 

[Omegabronic]

Only base Super Forms, right? He already scales above peak Super Forms in Forces?

What exactly is the difference? He jumped infinity in power once... why is he doing it again a problem suddently? Specially when nothing really contradicts it?

 

[Snek]

We don't know how much stronger Infinite is compared to the other tier 1s, so a casual display on that level is easily >> Infinite from their view, specially compared to the Titans they saw so f
No? It shows that being so cassually on Dark Gaia's level is held in high regard... it says nothing on where Dark Gaia scales to them

But it does though Tails knows many of the Ancients devices can take base Sonic on in a fight and when he sees an entity overpower the Ancients technology he says the power it showed in the vision is on par with Dark Gaia. Therefore that comparison means Tails thinks Dark Gaia at max power could replicate what The End did casually hence the comparison and what The End did casually was grossly overpower devices that rival base Sonic at minimum. So therefore the power comparison only makes sense if Dark Gaia is stronger than base Sonic and by extension Infinite.

 

[McFriesGuy075]

What exactly is the difference? He jumped infinity in power once... why is he doing it again a problem suddently? Specially when nothing really contradicts it?

Well, in that case, it wouldn't be a problem applying Eggman's statement of having learned the power of the Precioustone to the Super Eggrobo's power being immeasurable to him, right?

 

[JPTheGamer]

Nope, too vague. Disagree.