Even if we ignore the Japanese text implications, Reclusa is at the very least mass reality-warping everyone's dreams, to the point of being able to essentially entirely make new ones. There is zero chance those dream worlds still exist in the way Reclusa had them. Either his modifications vanished, or the entire dream worlds vanished.
This metaphor still doesn't imply any particular kind of AP beyond the one that destroys the actual object. Are you planning to actually respond to my points rather than just nitpick side arguments? Because you can stonewall this as much as you want but the only staff that agrees with this scaling is @FinePoint and he hasn't commented in a while.
Would you mind summarizing the debate which has happened since then?
A lot of things have been said, the current crux of my argument is that since the dream worlds are created by forcefully putting people to sleep and messing with their minds, their creation (and possible destruction, though it's not actually known if they even do get destroyed) is done indirectly through that method, rather than creating it from nothing. To put it simply, the dreams are being created by the people sleeping in the normal way that they are anytime someone sleeps in the Mario universe, and just affected by Reclusa to further his means.
I see. It's also possible they're manipulating the entire existing Tier 2 structure, which would still be a feat at that level even if not made from scratch.
My argument as of now revolves around consistent statements of Reclusa's creation (or at least mass-modification) of dreams using Glohm. The Soli-Tree is the source of all of the Glohm, dreams, and flowers (referred to as "Reclusa's locus of loneliness that stands at the center of the world (Concordia, a parallel world)"), which Reclusa scales to (he made it, refers to it as his "little toy".) This is not remotely a simple matter of destroying the source. This "source" directly scales to each and every one of these dreams, and this same source is something Reclusa whipped up in less than a minute after his awakening.
Just doesn't work when Reclusa and the Soli-Tree aren't even remotely close in function or purpose to engines, but rather what created the plane as a whole in an instant. The engines don't vanish. The ENTIRE PLANE does.
We see Glohm can make material objects like pipes, grant power, warp reality, or corrupt minds.
This seems likely to me, though I'm not sure that changes the scaling.
Between each new world/variation the Bros. go to, everything is different as soon as they go through the door, acting as some sort of portal, leading to the next world. So instantly, for sure.
I agree on the "done from the outside" statement in terms of speed to an extent...
I think it's fairly feasible to interpret "new" as "I remade it into something new". For the record I agree it's happening fairly fast, but I also just don't think it's evidence against my interpretation of things. And even if we want to take it literally, people actually have several dreams per sleep session, so that's just natural.
"Just natural" appearing exactly when and how Reclusa wants it to?
You're not exactly conscious between dreams, given you're still sleeping. If I wanted to I could make the argument that a few minutes of time passed and weren't perceived by the bros. But really I think he could very well have control over that, I just wanted to show that "he can make them dream, end that dream and make another without waking them up" is viable with that bit.
Actually, scientifically speaking, you can be conscious during dreams; they call it lucid dreaming. Also, there's a term called dream consciousness where there's memory of subjective awareness during sleep.
Fair, but Snoutlet wasn't impacted by the flowers, yet his perception of time was the same as Mario and Luigi's. (Unless Snoutlet got pierced under Luigi's hat LMAO)
But all dreams are lucid dreams in Mario, Chompy meant between, my dude!
Well, I feel like the fact that dreaming canonically creates entire worlds probably complicates that fact. It sort of changes what a dream is to begin with, so "dream manipulation" in this context becomes "manipulation of an entire universe". Under normal circumstances, you'd just be editing some electrons realistically.
Fair. In this case, the Glohm and/or Reclusa is manipulating universes.
I'd say so, but the contention is whether it's done indirectly or not.
So I assume we can all agree on a 2-B feat, and the argument has boiled down to if it was direct?
Thats what I'm waiting for~
Yeah... I somewhat expected this.
That sound good, @Armorchompy ?
@Omnificence Mind doing the summoning honors?~ (I don't know who to summon)
Sorry, I can't ping staff members here, but I'll keep asking around for some votes
I agree with the first bit, but as far as I can tell neither FinePoint nor DDM have actually agreed with your scaling to AP. But yeah, if you want to give me a list of people I can tag them, alongside a few of my own.
This is correct, I'm not sure exactly where it falls in terms of AP if we assume it's done directly.
You mean if he creates the worlds all at once?
Yeah, or at least rapidly enough we could consider it all "one move".
The cutscene where the flowers are first introduced feature around half the population of Concordia getting trapped by flowers VERY rapidly during the view over the different islands.
Admins asleep@GyroNutz @SamanPatou @Maverick_Zero_X @Starter_Pack @CrimsonStarFallen
What do you think about this?
