Upgrading Anakin/Vader to 4-B

[LordVader30]

Summary

Lately, it's been bothering me that Anakin is not listed among the 4-B characters. I know this has been attempted several times before, but all of them were rejected due to incomplete arguments. The purpose of this CRT will be to once again argue for Anakin's upgrade to 4-B.

First of all, my main focus will be on Yoda and Mace Windu. Even though I've heard that Mace Windu might be downgraded from 4-B, Yoda should still remain 4-B. Therefore, I will be addressing the Anakin > Yoda part.

Anakin has been referred to as the most powerful Jedi of all time, and even potentially the strongest Jedi in history. I could extend this claim as far back as the Jedi of The Old Republic era, but for now, I will only focus on proving that he is superior to Yoda. I don’t think I need to explain that Anakin and Yoda existed in the same era, and that this statement would naturally include Yoda as well.

Anakin is referred to as the most powerful Jedi on two occasions, one of which was stated directly by Mace Windu himself. He also emphasized that it was not open for debate. Anakin is the greatest Jedi. Anakin is, in his own view, more powerful than all the living Jedi Masters.

Now, let me explain the things in this link.

In the first part, it is clearly stated multiple times that Anakin is the most powerful Jedi. This has been mentioned during Jacen's time travel, in sourcebooks, and in various novels. Throughout the Revenge of the Sith novel, Anakin is repeatedly referred to as the most powerful Jedi, as I have already proven above.

In the second part, the reason I say Anakin is superior to all characters from the Prequel Trilogy is because he is described as the most dangerous being in the galaxy. Anyone who reads the material will understand that this implies what I’m saying. Some might object to this based on statements that Sidious is the most powerful Sith, and I can't argue against that. However, the claim that Anakin is the most powerful Jedi still stands.

The reason Anakin is said to be stronger than any Jedi living during both the OT and PT eras is because Shadow of Mindor refers to him as the most powerful Jedi in history. This should include the version of Luke at that time as well.

In the final part, it's stated explicitly that Anakin is the most powerful Jedi in the past 1,000 years.

I believe all of this is enough to establish Anakin > Yoda. Since we currently consider Vader > Anakin, Vader should likewise be upgraded to 4-B. I’d also like to make additional contributions to all of this.

Now, let's discuss up to which version of Luke Vader should scale. ( Link )

In the first part, Luke fights Gethzerion and, after slamming her head into the ground, says something along the lines of, “So this is what it would’ve been like if my father had fought seriously.” In other words, according to Luke, Vader had the power to one-shot him. Other statements also confirm that Vader was dealing with inner conflict and that his power had diminished, which George Lucas himself acknowledges. He read the novel and stated that the ideas align with his own. So it's safe to say this implication is intentional.

In the second part, it's basically a C'baoth ~ Vader comparison, but it's enough to justify Vader > Thrawn Trilogy Luke, since in the novel, C'baoth is clearly portrayed as being stronger than Luke.

As for the third part, I’m not sure about the source, so you can skip that one if needed. I only included it as extra context. It was implied that Exar was stronger than Luke, and that Vader was more powerful than Exar.

I’d also like to address Dark Empire Luke. According to Sidious, Luke is only potentially stronger than Vader—this is what he implies. It is also implied that Luke is not on Vader’s level in terms of knowledge. So, considering that even during the JAT era it's debatable whether Luke is superior to Vader, Dark Empire Luke should be below Vader.

Now, since I know statements like “ROTJ Luke = Vader” will be brought up, I’d like to explain in advance why that shouldn't be the case.

First, let’s talk about Luke’s progression. Just one year earlier, in The Empire Strikes Back, Luke couldn’t even compete with Vader (which is proven). Yet somehow, within just a year, he suddenly reaches the level of someone he couldn’t even come close to before, becoming his equal in every way. This is clearly inconsistent and qualifies as a case of PIS (Plot-Induced Stupidity). We all know Luke had a destiny and was going to win that day no matter what.

Yes, characters can grow stronger—but Luke reaching that level in just one year is pure PIS. To further illustrate the inconsistency: it was implied that Vader is superior to Dark Empire Luke. As a result, even Anakin—who is weaker than Vader—was stated to be above Luke during the Shadow of Mindor era. In Thrawn Trilogy, Vader was portrayed as relative to C’baoth, who was clearly superior to Luke. Adding more to this, Darth Krayt’s power in the FOTJ era was compared to Vader’s, and that version of Krayt could scale to Luke—he could at least harm him. So, the idea that ROTJ Luke is equal to Vader is completely nonsensical.

To add a bit more: Vader has been stated to be equal in power to Sidious —at least approximately. This claim might face some objections, so I’d like to address and debunk a few anti-statements and feats that come to mind.

First, let’s talk about Galen. The Vader who was defeated by Galen was far from his peak. From The Force Unleashed to Return of the Jedi, Vader became significantly stronger multiple times. So, don’t compare that version to ROTJ Vader.

Now, let’s address the statements calling Vader the second most powerful individual. According to those statements (with supporting evidence) , Vader > Yoda, C’baoth, Cronal, and Gethzerion. He is stated to be weaker than Sidious because he is described as the second most powerful—and the first, obviously, is Sidious. So yes, that part is true, but none of these statements directly refer to ROTJ Vader. They mostly apply to earlier periods. If there is a similar statement during the ROTJ era, I’m not aware of it.

Of course, I don’t need to point out that Vader killed Sidious. This is a much bigger feat than many realize because Vader was at his weakest in that moment and still managed to resist Sidious’s full power. In short, even in a weakened state, he had the strength to stand up to Sidious.

Now, I probably don’t need to prove that Sidious is far stronger than Luke. So to summarize: Vader is fairly close to Sidious in power. And since Sidious is vastly superior to Luke, then Luke cannot be close to Vader either.

Of course, much more could be added to what I’ve written here, but for now, I believe this should be sufficient. In any case, Anakin/Vader should absolutely scale to both Yoda and Sidious.

A small request to those who will be participating in the CRT: if you agree that Anakin/Vader should be upgraded to 4-B based on any of the arguments provided here, there's no need to object to the points you personally don't agree with—unless you’re entirely rejecting the upgrade as a whole. This will help keep the discussion more focused.

Thank you in advance to everyone who took the time to read.

 

[god_cat]

Summary

Lately, it's been bothering me that Anakin is not listed among the 4-B characters. I know this has been attempted several times before, but all of them were rejected due to incomplete arguments. The purpose of this CRT will be to once again argue for Anakin's upgrade to 4-B.

First of all, my main focus will be on Yoda and Mace Windu. Even though I've heard that Mace Windu might be downgraded from 4-B, Yoda should still remain 4-B. Therefore, I will be addressing the Anakin > Yoda part.

Anakin has been referred to as the most powerful Jedi of all time, and even potentially the strongest Jedi in history. I could extend this claim as far back as the Jedi of The Old Republic era, but for now, I will only focus on proving that he is superior to Yoda. I don’t think I need to explain that Anakin and Yoda existed in the same era, and that this statement would naturally include Yoda as well.

Anakin is referred to as the most powerful Jedi on two occasions, one of which was stated directly by Mace Windu himself. He also emphasized that it was not open for debate. Anakin is the greatest Jedi. Anakin is, in his own view, more powerful than all the living Jedi Masters.

Now, let me explain the things in this link.

In the first part, it is clearly stated multiple times that Anakin is the most powerful Jedi. This has been mentioned during Jacen's time travel, in sourcebooks, and in various novels. Throughout the Revenge of the Sith novel, Anakin is repeatedly referred to as the most powerful Jedi, as I have already proven above.

In the second part, the reason I say Anakin is superior to all characters from the Prequel Trilogy is because he is described as the most dangerous being in the galaxy. Anyone who reads the material will understand that this implies what I’m saying. Some might object to this based on statements that Sidious is the most powerful Sith, and I can't argue against that. However, the claim that Anakin is the most powerful Jedi still stands.

The reason Anakin is said to be stronger than any Jedi living during both the OT and PT eras is because Shadow of Mindor refers to him as the most powerful Jedi in history. This should include the version of Luke at that time as well.

In the final part, it's stated explicitly that Anakin is the most powerful Jedi in the past 1,000 years.

I believe all of this is enough to establish Anakin > Yoda. Since we currently consider Vader > Anakin, Vader should likewise be upgraded to 4-B. I’d also like to make additional contributions to all of this.

Now, let's discuss up to which version of Luke Vader should scale. ( Link )

In the first part, Luke fights Gethzerion and, after slamming her head into the ground, says something along the lines of, “So this is what it would’ve been like if my father had fought seriously.” In other words, according to Luke, Vader had the power to one-shot him. Other statements also confirm that Vader was dealing with inner conflict and that his power had diminished, which George Lucas himself acknowledges. He read the novel and stated that the ideas align with his own. So it's safe to say this implication is intentional.

In the second part, it's basically a C'baoth ~ Vader comparison, but it's enough to justify Vader > Thrawn Trilogy Luke, since in the novel, C'baoth is clearly portrayed as being stronger than Luke.

As for the third part, I’m not sure about the source, so you can skip that one if needed. I only included it as extra context. It was implied that Exar was stronger than Luke, and that Vader was more powerful than Exar.

I’d also like to address Dark Empire Luke. According to Sidious, Luke is only potentially stronger than Vader—this is what he implies. It is also implied that Luke is not on Vader’s level in terms of knowledge. So, considering that even during the JAT era it's debatable whether Luke is superior to Vader, Dark Empire Luke should be below Vader.

Now, since I know statements like “ROTJ Luke = Vader” will be brought up, I’d like to explain in advance why that shouldn't be the case.

First, let’s talk about Luke’s progression. Just one year earlier, in The Empire Strikes Back, Luke couldn’t even compete with Vader (which is proven). Yet somehow, within just a year, he suddenly reaches the level of someone he couldn’t even come close to before, becoming his equal in every way. This is clearly inconsistent and qualifies as a case of PIS (Plot-Induced Stupidity). We all know Luke had a destiny and was going to win that day no matter what.

Yes, characters can grow stronger—but Luke reaching that level in just one year is pure PIS. To further illustrate the inconsistency: it was implied that Vader is superior to Dark Empire Luke. As a result, even Anakin—who is weaker than Vader—was stated to be above Luke during the Shadow of Mindor era. In Thrawn Trilogy, Vader was portrayed as relative to C’baoth, who was clearly superior to Luke. Adding more to this, Darth Krayt’s power in the FOTJ era was compared to Vader’s, and that version of Krayt could scale to Luke—he could at least harm him. So, the idea that ROTJ Luke is equal to Vader is completely nonsensical.

To add a bit more: Vader has been stated to be equal in power to Sidious —at least approximately. This claim might face some objections, so I’d like to address and debunk a few anti-statements and feats that come to mind.

First, let’s talk about Galen. The Vader who was defeated by Galen was far from his peak. From The Force Unleashed to Return of the Jedi, Vader became significantly stronger multiple times. So, don’t compare that version to ROTJ Vader.

Now, let’s address the statements calling Vader the second most powerful individual. According to those statements (with supporting evidence) , Vader > Yoda, C’baoth, Cronal, and Gethzerion. He is stated to be weaker than Sidious because he is described as the second most powerful—and the first, obviously, is Sidious. So yes, that part is true, but none of these statements directly refer to ROTJ Vader. They mostly apply to earlier periods. If there is a similar statement during the ROTJ era, I’m not aware of it.

Of course, I don’t need to point out that Vader killed Sidious. This is a much bigger feat than many realize because Vader was at his weakest in that moment and still managed to resist Sidious’s full power. In short, even in a weakened state, he had the strength to stand up to Sidious.

Now, I probably don’t need to prove that Sidious is far stronger than Luke. So to summarize: Vader is fairly close to Sidious in power. And since Sidious is vastly superior to Luke, then Luke cannot be close to Vader either.

Of course, much more could be added to what I’ve written here, but for now, I believe this should be sufficient. In any case, Anakin/Vader should absolutely scale to both Yoda and Sidious.

A small request to those who will be participating in the CRT: if you agree that Anakin/Vader should be upgraded to 4-B based on any of the arguments provided here, there's no need to object to the points you personally don't agree with—unless you’re entirely rejecting the upgrade as a whole. This will help keep the discussion more focused.

Thank you in advance to everyone who took the time to read.

Although I am undecided on some issues, I generally agree.

 

[ItsMeat]

Agreed, anakin deffinetely is superior to yoda power wise

 

[Xavis10]

Generally speaking, I agree with the thread's premise, the Yoda section is enough and pretty clear cut.

I do, however, think that Vader's rating should only apply to his prime suited self (excluding KFV, naturally).

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

This looks pretty good.

 

[JJSliderman]

Hmm I’m assuming Anakin’s mental blocks are the reason he lost to Obi.

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

Hmm I’m assuming Anakin’s mental blocks are the reason he lost to Obi.

He was conflicted as well as having not slept or ate in days from what I remember so bro was running on fumes alongside being noted in the novel as fighting like an ape compared to his usual self and he still nearly killed Obi-Wan several times.

 

[Xavis10]

Hmm I’m assuming Anakin’s mental blocks are the reason he lost to Obi.

That's right.

 

[TheHedgememe]

Seems legit to me.

 

[Kenny Mccormick 0v0]

I agree

 

[Doggo]

agree

 

[Cropfist]

i agree with this,

 

[LordVader30]

For anyone who clicked the links, I had forgotten to make one of them accessible—I've now fixed it.

 

[Pluto321]

agree

 

[Gonzalo]

I agree

 

[KingTempest]

Made me read this long behind OP

It works

 

[LordVader30]

Made me read this long behind OP

It works

I admit half of it wasn't necessary.

I’m not entirely sure, so I’m asking—how many moderator votes do I need? I think it’s three for Tier 1, so for Tier 4, it should be two, right?

 

[KingTempest]

I admit half of it wasn't necessary.

I’m not entirely sure, so I’m asking—how many moderator votes do I need? I think it’s three for Tier 1, so for Tier 4, it should be two, right?

yeah but u need to wait 2 days from the thread's conception
so 48 hours since u made this thread, so about 24 more from now

 

[Qawsedf234]

Of course, I don’t need to point out that Vader killed Sidious. This is a much bigger feat than many realize because Vader was at his weakest in that moment and still managed to resist Sidious’s full power. In short, even in a weakened state, he had the strength to stand up to Sidious.

For this seen, Vader wasn't at his weakest. Per Star Wars Insider he had gotten a boost from the Light side

At most times, and particularly in his weakened state, Vader wouldn't have stood a chance against the emanating from his Master, but the light side of the Force gives him the strength he needs.

Source: Star Wars Insider #101 page 31

If anything, the Legends implication is that Vader loses to Sidious most of the time and would've lost hard in RotJ if he didn't get a boost from the light side. You can also take the following statement from The Unifying Force as support since it was written far before the Mortis arc was a thing:

As his grandfather had done, he had broken through the apparent opposites that concealed the absolute nature of the Force, and found his way into an unseen unity that existed beyond the seeming separateness of the world. For a moment all the cosmic tumblers had clicked into place, and light and dark sides became something he could balance within himself, without having to remain on one side or the other. The consciousness that was Jacen Solo was strewn across the vast spectrum of life energy. He had passed beyond choice and consequence, good and evil, light and dark, life and death.

Showing that Vader had achieved Oneness before and that Jacen knew about it, which would likely have been referring to this incident since Luke wouldn't have been aware of earlier stuff afaik.

This is clearly inconsistent and qualifies as a case of PIS (Plot-Induced Stupidity). We all know Luke had a destiny and was going to win that day no matter what.

I mean, getting stronger in a short time frame isn't that weird. Anakin went from vaguely Jedi Master level to (per your CRT) the strongest Force User in 25,000 years in just three years. In fact multiple Jedi Master have went from nobodies to god-tier in short time, its not a shocking power increase in my view.

I believe all of this is enough to establish Anakin > Yoda. Since we currently consider Vader > Anakin, Vader should likewise be upgraded to 4-B. I’d also like to make additional contributions to all of this.

I mean the biggest thing here is, ultimately, does Anakin consistently hit 4-B levels of power? His peaks and potentials are beyond everyone else, but 99% of the time he doesn't operate at that level due to his chronically terrible levels of emotional imbalance.

Adding more to this, Darth Krayt’s power in the FOTJ era was compared to Vader’s, and that version of Krayt could scale to Luke—he could at least harm him. So, the idea that ROTJ Luke is equal to Vader is completely nonsensical.

Why are you using a back-of-the-novel summary as supporting evidence? I'm not sure if that's even a valid source, considering its usually just hype text.

Of course, much more could be added to what I’ve written here, but for now, I believe this should be sufficient. In any case, Anakin/Vader should absolutely scale to both Yoda and Sidious.

I'm fine with giving Anakin/Vader an "Up to 4-B" rating, since their peaks would be that high. But consistently, they are not that strong in my view.

It works

As a question, wasn't the 4-B rating for Star Wars getting removed since the sourcing for that scaling isn't valid? Or has new evidence come out that supports the rating?

 

[TegamiBachi25]

following

 

[TegamiBachi25]

For this seen, Vader wasn't at his weakest. Per Star Wars Insider he had gotten a boost from the Light side

If anything, the Legends implication is that Vader loses to Sidious most of the time and would've lost hard in RotJ if he didn't get a boost from the light side. You can also take the following statement from The Unifying Force as support since it was written far before the Mortis arc was a thing:

Showing that Vader had achieved Oneness before and that Jacen knew about it, which would likely have been referring to this incident since Luke wouldn't have been aware of earlier stuff afaik.

I mean, getting stronger in a short time frame isn't that weird. Anakin went from vaguely Jedi Master level to (per your CRT) the strongest Force User in 25,000 years in just three years. In fact multiple Jedi Master have went from nobodies to god-tier in short time, its not a shocking power increase in my view.

I mean the biggest thing here is, ultimately, does Anakin consistently hit 4-B levels of power? His peaks and potentials are beyond everyone else, but 99% of the time he doesn't operate at that level due to his chronically terrible levels of emotional imbalance.

Why are you using a back-of-the-novel summary as supporting evidence? I'm not sure if that's even a valid source, considering its usually just hype text.

I'm fine with giving Anakin/Vader an "Up to 4-B" rating, since their peaks would be that high. But consistently, they are not that strong in my view.

As a question, wasn't the 4-B rating for Star Wars getting removed since the sourcing for that scaling isn't valid? Or has new evidence come out that supports the rating?

I'm in the discord server for revamps. I thought the current 5-A/4-B rating was getting nuked for Legends

 

[LordVader30]

For this seen, Vader wasn't at his weakest. Per Star Wars Insider he had gotten a boost from the Light side

If anything, the Legends implication is that Vader loses to Sidious most of the time and would've lost hard in RotJ if he didn't get a boost from the light side. You can also take the following statement from The Unifying Force as support since it was written far before the Mortis arc was a thing:

Showing that Vader had achieved Oneness before and that Jacen knew about it, which would likely have been referring to this incident since Luke wouldn't have been aware of earlier stuff afaik.

First of all, he may have gotten stronger, but that still doesn’t mean he wasn’t in his weakest state. Gaining power doesn’t automatically bring you to your peak. And a secondary source cannot retcon the main novel.Also, the Jacen situation can never be referencing ROTJ—it's simple: we all know that Jacen wouldn’t take damage from Sidious. So how could Vader, who reached the same level through Oneness, take damage from him?Now, it might sound like I’m contradicting myself because I’m saying he both took damage and endured it—but that’s easy to explain. Vader largely resisted Sidious’s attacks. Yes, he took damage, but he should still scale because he managed to withstand the assault and even went on to kill Sidious.Also, let me emphasize once again—he did this in his weakest state. He was clearly far from his prime, yet he still managed to do it. After all, if he had been at his full power, withstanding it completely wouldn’t have even been an issue.

I mean, getting stronger in a short time frame isn't that weird. Anakin went from vaguely Jedi Master level to (per your CRT) the strongest Force User in 25,000 years in just three years. In fact multiple Jedi Master have went from nobodies to god-tier in short time, its not a shocking power increase in my view.

The problem is, Anakin had factors that could logically allow him to reach that level—he had a long history of warfare and access to an enormous archive to improve himself, right? But what did Luke have besides an extremely weakened Yoda? And I remember one of the sources even stated that Luke grew stronger on his own. That still leaves inconsistencies and PIS. How could Luke possibly reach that level on his own? Also, do you really think Dark Empire Luke is on the same level as ROTJ Luke? Or that TT Luke and SoM Luke are on the same level either?

I mean the biggest thing here is, ultimately, does Anakin consistently hit 4-B levels of power? His peaks and potentials are beyond everyone else, but 99% of the time he doesn't operate at that level due to his chronically terrible levels of emotional imbalance.

I'm not exactly sure what you're referring to. If you're talking about Obi-Wan, as mentioned above, Anakin wasn’t fighting properly because of his inner conflict and the exhaustion from several days of war. Additionally, Obi-Wan was able to match him because he knew Anakin very well and was familiar with his fighting style. I’ll share the evidence for all of this once I get home—along with even more.

Why are you using a back-of-the-novel summary as supporting evidence? I'm not sure if that's even a valid source, considering its usually just hype text.

I don’t understand why the text on the back of the book shouldn’t be used as a source. Also, I shared two of them, and the one you posted isn’t opening—if you could send it in another way, that would be great.

I'm fine with giving Anakin/Vader an "Up to 4-B" rating, since their peaks would be that high. But consistently, they are not that strong in my view.

In that case, I’ll assume you agree. I don’t know why you don’t think he’s that powerful, and I won’t ask either—because in the end, you approved the 4-B upgrade.

As a question, wasn't the 4-B rating for Star Wars getting removed since the sourcing for that scaling isn't valid? Or has new evidence come out that supports the rating?

I don’t know about that, so I can’t comment—but having Yoda’s profile listed as 4-B while Vader’s is 5-B is completely absurd.There’s even a panel that directly addresses a question like this. I’ve also checked many CRTs related to Star Wars and couldn’t find anything relevant on this issue. Anyway, I’ve now received approval from three moderators, so the CRT should be accepted—I guess I just need to wait until 11 PM.

 

[Qawsedf234]

First of all, he may have gotten stronger, but that still doesn’t mean he wasn’t in his weakest state. Gaining power doesn’t automatically bring you to your peak

It would still imply that he tapped into a force far greater than his standard power. Especially when the article directly states that Vader dies to Sidious in most other scenarios. So Vader with love > Vader at his peak in RotJ.

And a secondary source cannot retcon the main novel

Your logic doesn't work for Legends as blth sources are equally valid at C-Canon. The Insider Article isn't D-Canon or N-Canon. Additionally, the novel doesn't contradict the Insider source in any capacity from what I see. One describes Anakin throwing Palpatine down a shaft and the other explains that he did it because he was boosted from the Light-side of the Force.

novel.Also, the Jacen situation can never be referencing ROTJ—it's simple: we all know that Jacen wouldn’t take damage from Sidious. So how could Vader, who reached the same level through Oneness, take damage from him?

Oneness in a vacuum varies and there's similar states to Oneness where you get enhanced without becoming a force avatar. Galen entered a similar state when fighting Sidious on the Death Star and achieved similar results.

Vader was enhanced when it happened, the sources were have avaliable back those claims. Vader died primarily because his suits was destroyed rather than suffer from crippling wounds from the lightning bolts.

he did this in his weakest state.

No, he did while boosted with the Light-Side of the Force because he was protecting his son.

I'm not exactly sure what you're referring to. If you're talking about Obi-Wan, as mentioned above, Anakin wasn’t fighting properly because of his inner conflict

Anakin constantly suffers from emotional instability that cripples his power. It's why he went from struggling against Dooku to stomping him with Palpatine's words, it's why in half of his TCW fights he gets a massive boost and overwhelms his opponents at one point and it's why he lost to Obi-Wan.

If his peak is 4-B, that ultimately fine in my view. But it's not consistently there and I think "up to 4-B" is a more accurate description.

And I remember one of the sources even stated that Luke grew stronger on his own. That still leaves inconsistencies and PIS.

It means Luke makes massive jumps in power with minimal training. That's not PIS or inconsistent if it happens multiple times in a story. Sometimes the protagonist is just built different.

Also, do you really think Dark Empire Luke is on the same level as ROTJ Luke? Or that TT Luke and SoM Luke are on the same level either?

According to the various WEGs guides I have Luke gets a notable power increase in everh story up to Dark Empire and the beginning of the NJO. After which he platued for a bit and then got stronger.

shouldn’t be used as a source.

Because its hype text rather than a WoG statement or an in-universe statement. It's why we don't use a lot of book covers in other series.

you could send it in another way, that would be great.

Here's the Google search I used and one of the images should be the back of the novel where that statement comes from.

in the end, you approved the 4-B upgrade.

No, I approved of an "up to 4-B" rating. I didn't approve of Vader being 4-B as a baseline statistic.

I also don't know why your confused on my stance since I explain why Anakin isn't consistently at that level of power in my view

but 99% of the time he doesn't operate at that level due to his chronically terrible levels of emotional imbalance.

also checked many CRTs related to Star Wars and couldn’t find anything relevant on this issue.

It's in the discord and stuff regarding the downgrades. The two evidences for 4-B refer to Sidious' Force Storm and a Force Spirit, both of which are things that no one should scale to physically. So they were supposed to be downgraded to High 4-C at some point

 

[Xavis10]

It's in the discord and stuff regarding the downgrades. The two evidences for 4-B refer to Sidious' Force Storm and a Force Spirit, both of which are things that no one should scale to physically. So they were supposed to be downgraded to High 4-C at some point

Is this discord public or is it restricted? Are these downgrades hinging on the 4-B stuff alone?

 

[Qawsedf234]

this discord public or is it restricted

It's the one being used for the Tier 1 and 0 SW revisions afaik. Dunno it's status, just it's existence.

Are these downgrades hinging on the 4-B stuff alone?

The downgrades for this rating will get rid of the solar system quote from Vader and the solar system quote from the Force Spirit as standard scaling. Which makes the remaining quotes varies degrees of 4-C or High 4-C.

 

[MrTayman616]

Yoda himself has the statements of being the strongest/greatest jedi of all time etc as well too, no? And his statements are more consistent as far as i know.

Not like Anakin who's "one of the strongest of his era", "one of the most powerful jedi", " most powerful of his era", "most powerful jedi".

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

Yoda himself has the statements of being the strongest/greatest jedi of all time etc as well too, no? And his statements are more consistent as far as i know.

Not like Anakin who's "one of the strongest of his era", "one of the most powerful jedi", " most powerful of his era", "most powerful jedi".

Even if you use those, Yoda is still confirmed canonically that he would lose to Vader as shown earlier in the thread. He once also fought a dark jedi on Dagobah that was inferior to Vader for a long ass time and struggled immensely during it so even if Anakin wasn't consistently that strong, Vader is.

 

[MrTayman616]

Even if you use those, Yoda is still confirmed canonically that he would lose to Vader as shown earlier in the thread

No. I'd talk about the reliability of that child book.

Not only that child book is not reliable at all, the Yoda it talks about is "who awaits a new hope to help bring balance to the Force". The book also says Yoda is slower than before, weak in spirit, and the one who was waiting for a new hope had met Vader.

That book also says "Vader's special move is throwing his lightsaber" and his intelligence is lower than Yoda's. Weaker in Combat as well.

Literally his only superior stat is physical strength.

 

[LordVader30]

It would still imply that he tapped into a force far greater than his standard power. Especially when the article directly states that Vader dies to Sidious in most other scenarios. So Vader with love > Vader at his peak in RotJ.


Your logic doesn't work for Legends as blth sources are equally valid at C-Canon. The Insider Article isn't D-Canon or N-Canon. Additionally, the novel doesn't contradict the Insider source in any capacity from what I see. One describes Anakin throwing Palpatine down a shaft and the other explains that he did it because he was boosted from the Light-side of the Force.

Oneness in a vacuum varies and there's similar states to Oneness where you get enhanced without becoming a force avatar. Galen entered a similar state when fighting Sidious on the Death Star and achieved similar results.

Vader was enhanced when it happened, the sources were have avaliable back those claims. Vader died primarily because his suits was destroyed rather than suffer from crippling wounds from the lightning bolts.


No, he did while boosted with the Light-Side of the Force because he was protecting his son.

The Insider file is a secondary source. I’m not saying it’s non-canon, but it definitely cannot retcon the main novel unless there's something from a primary source confirming it. Insider absolutely cannot retcon a core novel like Return of the Jedi. Going back to the beginning, I already explained why Insider shouldn't be used, and it heavily contradicts established material — it refers to Vader, who overpowered Sidious, as being in his weakest state. I already proved this earlier. (Also, the so-called Oneness Vader, who supposedly reached unity like Jacen, is referred to as the weakest version of Vader, which would make ROTS Vader > Oneness Vader.)So, the quote from The Unifying Force (TUF) absolutely cannot be referencing ROTJ. There’s only one “source” mentioned, and it’s not even clear what TUF is referring to. Anakin reached Oneness even in Jedi Trial, and twice on Mortis. ROTJ would be the least likely event to be referenced among those.Considering the number of anti-statements, yes, and finally — protecting his son doesn’t prove that he wasn’t at his weakest.

Anakin constantly suffers from emotional instability that cripples his power. It's why he went from struggling against Dooku to stomping him with Palpatine's words, it's why in half of his TCW fights he gets a massive boost and overwhelms his opponents at one point and it's why he lost to Obi-Wan.

If his peak is 4-B, that ultimately fine in my view. But it's not consistently there and I think "up to 4-B" is a more accurate description.

Yes, I absolutely disagree with that — and the reason is simple. You basically explained yourself why Anakin has those anti-feats. In none of those battles could Anakin fight at full strength due to emotional conflict. Everything I’ve provided above shows what he is capable of in his normal state. So, the answer to your claim is straightforward: the reason Anakin has anti-feats is because of emotional conflict, and that is a weakness — one that should be listed under the weakness section of his profile. It doesn’t lower his tier. There’s no reason he shouldn’t be 4-B in his base form.

It means Luke makes massive jumps in power with minimal training. That's not PIS or inconsistent if it happens multiple times in a story. Sometimes the protagonist is just built different.

I understand what you're saying, but there isn’t a single logical argument for how Luke could suddenly reach that level on his own. Yes, he had Yoda with him, but there’s nothing that states he reached that level because of Yoda. The only known reason is that he trained himself. Do you really think that’s reasonable?

According to the various WEGs guides I have Luke gets a notable power increase in everh story up to Dark Empire and the beginning of the NJO. After which he platued for a bit and then got stronger.

And the reason I’m asking this is because how can Vader—who is stated to be stronger than Dark Empire Luke—be equal to ROTJ Luke? Or how can Vader, who is portrayed as roughly equal to C'baoth (who is stronger than TT Luke), be equal to ROTJ Luke?

Because its hype text rather than a WoG statement or an in-universe statement. It's why we don't use a lot of book covers in other series.


Here's the Google search I used and one of the images should be the back of the novel where that statement comes from.

Even if we assume what you said is correct, the Fate of the Jedi statement doesn’t appear on the back cover of the book. Besides, I don't think being written on the back cover has anything to do with what you’re saying. I believe it can still be used as a secondary source.

It's in the discord and stuff regarding the downgrades. The two evidences for 4-B refer to Sidious' Force Storm and a Force Spirit, both of which are things that no one should scale to physically. So they were supposed to be downgraded to High 4-C at some point

I'm asking out of curiosity—why was the 4-A ability removed? There wasn't a CRT for it either. And handling these matters over Discord is honestly unreasonable—not everyone uses Discord, and CRTs were created specifically for this purpose. I believe a change is necessary in this regard, especially considering not all members are even in that server. If things like this are going to be decided in a Discord server, then you might as well shut down the CRT section entirely. CRTs are public, but Discord isn't. Anyway, no need to drag this out any further—you’ve probably understood my complaint already.

 

[LordVader30]

Yoda himself has the statements of being the strongest/greatest jedi of all time etc as well too, no? And his statements are more consistent as far as i know.

Not like Anakin who's "one of the strongest of his era", "one of the most powerful jedi", " most powerful of his era", "most powerful jedi".

Both of the points you made are incorrect. First, Yoda loses a fight to Dooku. I’ve heard that Yoda and Dooku fought again shortly before ROTS, but I haven’t seen it, and apparently neither of them could defeat the other. The statement that Anakin surpassed Yoda in his base form comes after this battle. Dooku and Yoda are more or less on the same level, so no, it’s not consistent at all.

Also, there isn’t a definitive statement—it’s just an implication and an exaggerated one at that. The line says, “the most powerful enemy the darkness has ever faced,” but even in material that came after ROTS, Anakin is still portrayed as being superior to Yoda. Frankly, saying Yoda is more consistent just isn’t possible. On the contrary, the reason Anakin struggles in fights is quite simply because he’s in emotional turmoil. In his normal state, that wouldn’t be the case, and the inconsistency would be resolved.

No. I'd talk about the reliability of that child book.

Not only that child book is not reliable at all, the Yoda it talks about is "who awaits a new hope to help bring balance to the Force". The book also says Yoda is slower than before, weak in spirit, and the one who was waiting for a new hope had met Vader.

That book also says "Vader's special move is throwing his lightsaber" and his intelligence is lower than Yoda's. Weaker in Combat as well.

Literally his only superior stat is physical strength.

You haven’t provided any evidence for what you’re saying, unfortunately. Also, it doesn’t mention physical strength—it talks about power. Even if it’s considered unreliable, there are four different statements referring to Vader as the second most powerful being in the galaxy. So it's very clear that Vader is superior to Yoda.

 

[MrTayman616]

First, Yoda loses a fight to Dooku

What? Wrong in every way. Yoda is superior to him in any way(except size lmao). This is like saying Dooku can also beat Sidious. Dooku can hold his own for a bit before just running away.

The statement that Anakin surpassed Yoda in his base form comes after this battle. Dooku and Yoda are more or less on the same level, so no, it’s not consistent at all.

They are not on the same level lmao.

Anakin is still portrayed as being superior to Yoda. Frankly, saying Yoda is more consistent just isn’t possible. On the contrary, the reason Anakin struggles in fights is quite simply because he’s in emotional turmoil. In his normal state, that wouldn’t be the case, and the inconsistency would be resolved.

He isn't. Also Yoda IS more consistently the most powerful jedi. it's not "possibly" but a fact. Consistently stated to be THE most powerful jedi. Not "one of the" or "of that era" etc.

Even Palpatine says so. "Darth vader will become stronger than both of us.", "I believe you'll become even more powerful than Master Yoda" in ROTS.

You haven’t provided any evidence for what you’re saying, unfortunately. Also, it doesn’t mention physical strength—it talks about power. Even if it’s considered unreliable, there are four different statements referring to Vader as the second most powerful being in the galaxy. So it's very clear that Vader is superior to Yoda.

Here. Vader only has "strength". Loses in Combat, intelligence.

States it's the yoda who's waiting for a new hope. Slower and has weak spirit.

That book also says "Vader's special move is throwing his lightsaber" and his intelligence is lower than Yoda's. Weaker in Combat as well.

Those statements of being the "second strongest" in the galaxy literally has no reason to include Yoda who's existence itself and situation itself is unknown there

 

[Qawsedf234]

The Insider file is a secondary source. I’m not saying it’s non-canon, but it definitely cannot retcon the main novel unless there's something from a primary source confirming it.

That's explicitly not how Legends canon works. They operate on a strict hierarchy of G > T > C > S > N canon. Ever C-Canon source carries the same weight and more importantly the Insider source does not contradict the novel scene.

Additionally your quote is from the Rise and Fall of Darth Vader, not a novelization. Which doesnt even have some argument of GL's heavy involvement.

Insider shouldn't be used, and it heavily contradicts established material

You feeling this way doesn’t change how the source works. Vader was canonically boosted by the light side, which is how he was able to overpower Sidious in that moment.

There’s no reason he shouldn’t be 4-B in his base form.

He's usually not that strong and he only gets that strong when his mind is focused on something. 99% of the time he lacks that so 99% of the time he's not 4-B. He can be up to 4-B with the right motivation, but he generally lacks that motivation.

but there isn’t a single logical argument for how Luke could suddenly reach that level on his own.

He trained. That's a perfectly logical and valid argument that accepted in the wiki. We accept that a lower dimensional character can achieve higher dimensional power through training all the time. Conceptually this is nothing new and Luke has repeatably demonstrated that he can make massive leaps in power incredibly quickly.

Do you really think that’s reasonable?

Yes

And the reason I’m asking this is because how can Vader—who is stated to be stronger than Dark Empire Luke—be equal to ROTJ Luke? Or how can Vader, who is portrayed as roughly equal to C'baoth (who is stronger than TT Luke), be equal to ROTJ Luke?

I think you're confused regarding my points as i had made two separate one. I agree with Vader being up to 4-B because at his peak his comparable to Sidious, it's just that he struggles to ever reach that peak because he canonically hates himself.

But, my disagreement with Luke was your assumption he couldn't have gotten as strong as he did as fast as he did, when that is a nonsensical argument. We already accept that relatively short periods of training can give you massive power boosts in the right circumstances. An easy example is Vader losing to Galen and then fighting his clone on near equal footing in a incredibly short timeframe.

I think Luke did get much stronger quickly against your points, but I also think that a peak Vader is better than Luke until DE/NJO when Luke equals/surpasses that potential without the crippling levels of emotional problems.

Fate of the Jedi statement doesn’t appear on the back cover of the book.

Can you provide a page number for the statement then. Because I'm unable to locate that text in my copy of the novel.

I'm asking out of curiosity—why was the 4-A ability removed?

The Force Storm kills everyone it touches and you more control it happening. It scaling to physicals is questionable (also if your upgrade goes through it becomes like 1-C which makes it even more insane to scale people to). The Force Spirit is a more obvious example of why no one should probably scale to a full powered being like that outside of a few circumstances.

Yoda and Dooku fought again shortly before ROTS, but I haven’t seen it, and apparently neither of them could defeat the other.

They fought on a Dark Side Nexus which amped Dooku, Yoda was nerfed the entire time, Yoda had to do stuff like divert missiles mid-fight and Dooku still had to disengage because he couldn't win. It all happens in Dark Rendezvous and Dooku himself thinks that if Yoda tapped into the Dark Side he'd smash Sidious in a fight.

Basically it's not a Yoda L as you're implying.

Also, there isn’t a definitive statement—it’s just an implication and an exaggerated one at that.

What? The RotS novelization has one of the more explicit statements ever

It came when the avatar of light resolved into the lineage of the Jedi; when the lineage of the Jedi refined into one single Jedi.

It came when Yoda found himself alone against the dark.

In that lightning-speared tornado of feet and fists and blades and bashing machines, his vision finally pierced the darkness that had clouded the Force.

Finally, he saw the truth.

This truth: that he, the avatar of light, Supreme Master of the Jedi Order, the fiercest, most implacable, most devastatingly powerful foe the darkness had ever known... just-didn't-have it.

 

[LordVader30]

Yes, an aggressive member... DIDN’T EVEN PROVIDE EVIDENCE FOR ANYTHING LMAO

What? Wrong in every way. Yoda is superior to him in any way(except size lmao). This is like saying Dooku can also beat Sidious. Dooku can hold his own for a bit before just running away.

They are not on the same level lmao.

No, Dooku is roughly on the same level as Yoda. Even Yoda himself sat silently when Mace Windu said Anakin was the most powerful Jedi while talking to Obi-Wan — do you really think Yoda, of all people, wouldn’t have objected if he were stronger than Anakin? LOL (the evidence is already provided above). And Dooku already beat Yoda, LOL. Also, Yoda is not on Sidious's level — Sidious defeated Yoda

"A-actually, Yoda ran away on purpose " — no, that’s not true. Sidious absolutely overwhelmed him, and Yoda had no choice but to escape. That’s exactly why he said, “I failed.” Plus, you haven’t provided a single piece of actual evidence that proves Yoda is stronger than Dooku — which makes this even more hilarious, LOL.

He isn't. Also Yoda IS more consistently the most powerful jedi. it's not "possibly" but a fact. Consistently stated to be THE most powerful jedi. Not "one of the" or "of that era" etc.

Even Palpatine says so. "Darth vader will become stronger than both of us.", "I believe you'll become even more powerful than Master Yoda" in ROTS.

There’s literally only one statement that even vaguely implies Yoda is the most powerful Jedi. If you don’t provide any actual evidence, I won’t take a single one of your messages seriously for the rest of the CRT. There is absolutely nothing confirming that Yoda is more consistent — and even that one statement is exaggerated. Meanwhile, there are three separate points suggesting Anakin is above Sidious, and over ten that put him above Yoda I already shared the inconsistencies proving Yoda can’t be the strongest. If you’re going to object, at least change your argument.The reason Sidious said those things was to try and intimidate Yoda. He actually shares his true opinion when talking to Dooku.

Here. Vader only has "strength". Loses in Combat, intelligence.

States it's the yoda who's waiting for a new hope. Slower and has weak spirit.

I'm not sure if what you shared is the same as what I shared. Also, there's nothing here that says Yoda > Vader, LOL. The only thing being said is Anakin > Vader, and that's not even the topic of this CRT. If you have an objection to that, bring it up in a different CRT. And even if we assume what you shared is the same as mine, it actually says Vader won.

Those statements of being the "second strongest" in the galaxy literally has no reason to include Yoda who's existence itself and situation itself is unknown there

Did you seriously just say something as ridiculous as “Yoda isn’t in the galaxy”? IT INCLUDES EVERYONE IN THE GALAXY. YOU DO REALIZE YODA IS IN THE GALAXY, RIGHT? I’m guessing the answer is no. It clearly says Sidious is number 1 and Vader is number 2. Got any other ridiculous arguments?

 

[LordTracer]

Got any other ridiculous arguments?

You need to chill with the attitude, you can disagree without being disrespectful.

 

[LordVader30]

I'll give only one response to what you said about Luke, because I'm a bit tired and honestly, there's no need. The argument that calls Vader the weakest comes from Return of the Jedi. The part where Vader resists Sidious is mentioned in The Rise and Fall of Darth Vader. The idea that Vader was dealing with inner conflict is found in The Courtship of Princess Leia. As for Lucas, it's stated that he read it and agreed with it, which is why it made sense to me.

Can you provide a page number for the statement then. Because I'm unable to locate that text in my copy of the novel.

Give me a bit of time for this — I’ll check it shortly, but this isn’t on the back cover of the book.

Google Image Result for https://img.leboncoin.fr/api/v1/lbcpb1/images/53/c1/ee/53c1ee6d38fc4c7d17ccef38b730482f877b40d2.jpg?rule=ad-large

They fought on a Dark Side Nexus which amped Dooku, Yoda was nerfed the entire time, Yoda had to do stuff like divert missiles mid-fight and Dooku still had to disengage because he couldn't win. It all happens in Dark Rendezvous and Dooku himself thinks that if Yoda tapped into the Dark Side he'd smash Sidious in a fight.

Basically it's not a Yoda L as you're implying.

Even if it's true, Yoda is still 4-B despite not falling to the dark side, and I scale Anakin to him accordingly because there are many statements saying Anakin > Yoda. Besides, Dooku defeated Yoda in a duel — the evidence is provided above.

What? The RotS novelization has one of the more explicit statements ever

And in contrast, there are many statements calling Anakin the strongest Jedi, but you have somehow already approved 4-B. I guess now I just have to wait until 23 PM.

 

[LordVader30]

You need to chill with the attitude, you can disagree without being disrespectful.

I would do it, but I’d appreciate it if they talk to me respectfully. I respond in kind to however someone speaks to me.

 

[Qawsedf234]

have somehow already approved 4-B

I cannot stress this enough, I approved of "up to 4-B". I did not approve of a solid 4-B rating. You can't use my stance to upgrade Vader to purely 4-B.

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

Let's all just relax a teeny tiny bit please? I'd rather not have this shut down because we lost our temper.

 

[LordVader30]

I cannot stress this enough, I approved of "up to 4-B". I did not approve of a solid 4-B rating. You can't use my stance to upgrade Vader to purely 4-B.

I never said you fully approved it, I said you somehow accept it. I understood what you meant. Normally, I would object to this, but since I have two moderators on my side, it’s not really necessary.

 

[LordVader30]

Let's all just relax a teeny tiny bit please? I'd rather not have this shut down because we lost our temper.

So far, I have been calm; I just ask that expressions like "lmao," "LOL," etc., are not used. I hold no hostility toward anyone here and treat everyone equally. If someone objects to the CRT, I don’t get angry—I just want everyone to speak respectfully, that’s all.