A tensura crt

[The_golden_and_silver_house94]

velgrynd

From velgrynd's profile there's this

• Acausality (Higher Degree of Type 4; Her ultimate skill transcends all other ultimate skills, making her far above the others)

The comparison that is being made is simply how velgrynds ultimate skill alters the world as compared to the rest of the skills as in its simply better than most of its kind which has nothing to do with acausality
this is further supported by this scan

…someone who freely tinkered with ultimate skills, gave Velgrynd her
freedom, and massively improved her own powers, evolving them to greater
heights. No regular human could possibly have done any of that.

Her powers got an upgrade but nothing really supports acausality here so this should be removed

Rimuru and veldanava

• Acausality (Higher Degree of Type 4; Rimuru is a higher being than an Ultimate Skill user being comparable to Veldanava <a href="https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Rimuru_Tempest_(Light_Novel)#cite_note-61"><span>[</span>61<span>]</span></a>)

Click to expand...

• Invulnerability & Acausality (Higher Degree of Type 4; Higher being than an Ultimate Skill user,<a href="https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Veldanava_(Light_Novel)#cite_note-Volume_16,_Chapter_4-15"><span>[</span>15<span>]</span></a> an attack that cannot reach his level will do no harm against him)

Rimuru should also lose this ,the comparison between Rimuru and veldanava was their ability to manipulate the voice of the world,which has nothing to do with acausality
For veldanava ,unless there talking about his omnipotent self ,there is no evidence for that justification

Fate manipulation for chloe
Via reversal of fate ,that can change outcomes into the way chloes wants them to be

Existence erasure ,energy manipulation and matter manipulation for void manipulation
The voids can erasure matter existence and energy


Reality warping for law manipulation
the voice of the world was stated to be the world itself
The voice of the world are the very laws that govern realiy
Naturally if this gets accepted all layers that apply to law hax will also apply to this

Agree: @Mizuki67 @FinePoint (neutral on aca4 removal for velda) @Ultimuru (neutral on aca4 removal )
@CodeCCLL (neutral on aca4 for velda) @DarkDragonMedeus (same as @FinePoint)
@KingTempest (same as @FinePoint)

Disagree:

 

[AlexSamDen]

Rimuru and veldanava



Rimuru should also lose this ,the comparison between Rimuru and veldanava was their ability to manipulate the voice of the world,which has nothing to do with acausality
For veldanava ,unless there talking about his omnipotent self ,there is no evidence for that justification

The VoTW justification is still valid as he rewrites the laws that bind already Aca 4 US users

 

[Mizuki67]

Acausality higher degree is resistance not them being able to change the fate of acca4 users, this just makes the law manip layered

The VoTW justification is still valid as he rewrites the laws that bind already Aca 4 US users

Not the acausality
So i accept the removal and everything else

 

[Thermor]

The invulnerability should also be removed as they mention "level" seems more like a tier situation

 

[AlexSamDen]

Acausality higher degree is resistance not them being able to change the fate of acca4 users, this just makes the law manip layered

Mind you VoTW also includes Causality and governs the relations of US

 

[AlexSamDen]

The invulnerability should also be removed as they mention "level" seems more like a tier situation

No, invulnerability is literally just that, just like Guy couldn't do just anything to Velda. Plus the nature of Aca4 itself

 

[The_golden_and_silver_house94]

The VoTW justification is still valid as he rewrites the laws that bind already Aca 4 US users

That doesn't justify having higher degree of acausality

 

[The_golden_and_silver_house94]

The invulnerability should also be removed as they mention "level" seems more like a tier situation

The invulnerability comes from them not being unaffected by anything lower than an ultimate skill

 

[AlexSamDen]

That doesn't justify having higher degree of acausality

Rimuru is also a US user, VoTW is supposed to bind him, but he rewrites it. That means he is not bound by something that binds already Aca4 users

 

[AlexSamDen]

The invulnerability comes from them not being unaffected by anything lower than an ultimate skill

There is also this

An attack from someone bound by the Laws of the Skill will not work against a True Dragon, an ultimate existence akin to an Ultimate Skill user

I suggest you reread Acasuality and Invulnerability pages

 

[The_golden_and_silver_house94]

Rimuru is also a US user, VoTW is supposed to bind him, but he rewrites it. That means he is not bound by something that binds already Aca4 users

Thats not how acausality works ,rewriting laws that binds aca4 would just be a feat of interaction or a layer of hax if the aca4 gives resistance

 

[The_golden_and_silver_house94]

The invulnerability should also be removed as they mention "level" seems more like a tier situation

Btw whats your vote

 

[AlexSamDen]

Thats not how acausality works ,rewriting laws that binds aca4 would just be a feat of interaction or a layer of hax if the aca4 gives resistance

The reason why I say VoTW and not Laws of the world is exactly to avoid confusion. VoTW is also causality

 

[The_golden_and_silver_house94]

The reason why I say VoTW and not Laws of the world is exactly to avoid confusion. VoTW is also causality

The VoTW are the laws of the world

 

[Ultimuru]

The invulnerability comes from them not being unaffected by anything lower than an ultimate skill

To be fair, Raphael says that against ultimate skill, NEARLY all lower-level skills are cancelled. So it's not an absolute rule.

 

[The_golden_and_silver_house94]

To be fair, Raphael says that against ultimate skill, NEARLY all lower-level skills are cancelled. So it's not an absolute rule.

This doesn't justify it being removed ,also lets leave it that

 

[AlexSamDen]

The VoTW are the laws of the world

Yeah, and do you know what they call caisality in tensura? Law of cause and effect. So while in-verse they call it a law, by wiki standarts it's causality

 

[The_golden_and_silver_house94]

Yeah, and do you know what they call caisality in tensura? Law of cause and effect. So while in-verse they call it a law, by wiki standarts it's causality

What are trying to say here ,,,,
Manipulating laws that binds acausals is no proof for being an acausal yourself let alone a layer of it ,if you can't refute that then leave it at that

 

[AlexSamDen]

What are trying to say here ,,,,
Manipulating laws that binds acausals is no proof for being an acausal yourself let alone a layer of it ,if you can't refute that then leave it at that

I think you are completely missing the whole thing. VoTW is Law and Causality, because causality in the verse is referred as a law. And now reread my arguments with the causality part in mind

 

[Mizuki67]

The invulnerability should also be removed as they mention "level" seems more like a tier situation

No that stays brody, but i feel only true dragons should get it since they said only them wouldn't budge if you don't use an ultimate to fight them, i mean a literal black hole was cut off with Velgrynd hand fan lol

 

[AlexSamDen]

No that stays brody, but i feel only true dragons should get it since they said only them wouldn't budge if you don't use an ultimate to fight them, i mean a literal black hole was cut off with Velgrynd hand fan lol

We kinda have this

An attack from someone bound by the Laws of the Skill will not work against a True Dragon, an ultimate existence akin to an Ultimate Skill user

 

[Mizuki67]

We kinda have this

Nah, true dragons are ultimate in flesh and blood, ultimate skill users can still be stabbed with a knife physically and they'll die (I'm just trying to point something out) we've seen Velgrynd solo ultimate skill users with her fan and we've seen unique skill users beat ultimate skill users, you can't even canonically compare true dragons to some random with an ultimate skill because primordial demons magic are ultimate level, they'll kill an ultimate skill user but 3 of them barely damaged 10% Velgrynd who laid down all her defenses and didn't touch her ultimate skill Lmao

 

[AlexSamDen]

Nah, true dragons are ultimate in flesh and blood, ultimate skill users can still be stabbed with a knife physically and they'll die (I'm just trying to point something out) we've seen Velgrynd solo ultimate skill users with her fan and we've seen unique skill users beat ultimate skill users, you can't even canonically compare true dragons to some random with an ultimate skill because primordial demons magic are ultimate level, they'll kill an ultimate skill user but 3 of them barely damaged 10% Velgrynd who laid down all her defenses and didn't touch her ultimate skill Lmao

First of all, we didn't have any situations of Unique skill winning against an US, only Rudra's ultimate gift, which was several times stated to be weaker than normal US. Not all pridmordial magic is ultimate, only some reach it. We have Diablo, who is undoubtedly stronger than the trio, having trouble against UG users at the time. Adding to everything before, Chloe defeated Veldora with only unique skills

 

[Mizuki67]

First of all, we didn't have any situations of Unique skill winning against an US, only Rudra's ultimate gift, which was several times stated to be weaker than normal US. Not all pridmordial magic is ultimate, only some reach it. We have Diablo, who is undoubtedly stronger than the trio, having trouble against UG users at the time. Adding to everything before, Chloe defeated Veldora with only unique skills

Hello, Cook.
Hello, infinite prison THE UNIQUE SKILL
Hello, Absolute severance
Hello, mood maker
Hello?????

 

[Tuxidoe_Redo]

Reversing fate is casuality manip?

 

[The_golden_and_silver_house94]

Reversing fate is casuality manip?

Reversal of fate is the name of the ability/technique

 

[Tuxidoe_Redo]

Reversal of fate is the name of the ability/technique

Changing outcomes sounds more like fate manip rather than causality manip dawg

 

[The_golden_and_silver_house94]

Changing outcomes sounds more like fate manip rather than causality manip dawg

Changing outcome doesn't necessarily have to be fate all the time ,causality can also do that
What chloe did was change Michael's state of being from a manas to a skill plus she was doing that in the suspended world where only the law of causality exists

 

[AlexSamDen]

Hello, infinite prison THE UNIQUE SKILL
Hello, Absolute severance

And these two defeated Veldora, so TD are not so different than US in this regard

 

[AlexSamDen]

Hello, Cook.
Hello, mood maker
Hello?????

Also, when did Cook defeat an US I might ask? And Moodmaker is an ultimate gift, not a unique skill

 

[Mizuki67]

And these two defeated Veldora, so TD are not so different than US in this regard

Definitely, mentioned that Veldora is a newbie, highlight from Velzard in volume 5, could've broken out if he knew how to

Also, when did Cook defeat an US I might ask? And Moodmaker is an ultimate gift, not a unique skill

Okay razul doesn't have an ultimate, anyways we know demon magic is ultimate and diablo used it to beat two US users

Changing outcome doesn't necessarily have to be fate all the time ,causality can also do that
What chloe did was change Michael's state of being from a manas to a skill plus she was doing that in the suspended world where only the law of causality exists

Type of argument is "changing thd future isn't always fate manip" that's LITERALLY what fate manip is. People like shion just does this by altering cause and effect giving her both abilities, but i agree with you that what chloe did wasn't causality manip either. She changes the state of something to whatever she think it is, by reversing their condition this isn't time manip since it changes to "what i think it is" probably altering their information

 

[The_golden_and_silver_house94]

Type of argument is "changing thd future isn't always fate manip" that's LITERALLY what fate manip is. People like shion just does this by altering cause and effect giving her both abilities, but i agree with you that what chloe did wasn't causality manip either. She changes the state of something to whatever she think it is, by reversing their condition this isn't time manip since it changes to "what i think it is" probably altering their information

I thought it must be causality manipulation since chloe said "let all things be as they should be" and rimuru clarifying that it wasn't a return per say but things turn out as chloe imagined them to be
I don't mind giving her both fate and causality tho
,chloes skills were still working in the suspended world so it seems unlikely that that her skills weren't involved too

 

[AlexSamDen]

Definitely, mentioned that Veldora is a newbie, highlight from Velzard in volume 5, could've broken out if he knew how to

The severance still pierced his defence

Okay razul doesn't have an ultimate, anyways we know demon magic is ultimate and diablo used it to beat two US users

1) Not all magic is ultimate. Plus it is said that it can reach the level of US. And we actually see it, the demoness trio managed to pierce Velgrynd's defence after all
2) Diablo fought not 2 US users, but two 'Alternative' users who are multiple times stated to be weaker than US users

 

[Mizuki67]

I thought it must be causality manipulation since chloe said "let all things be as they should be" and rimuru clarifying that it wasn't a return per say but things turn out as chloe imagined them to be
I don't mind giving her both fate and causality tho
,chloes skills were still working in the suspended world so it seems unlikely that that her skills weren't involved too

fate only maybe

 

[FinePoint]

This all seems logical to me.

 

[AlexSamDen]

I think you are completely missing the whole thing. VoTW is Law and Causality, because causality in the verse is referred as a law. And now reread my arguments with the causality part in mind

This all seems logical to me.

What do you think of this chain about point 2?

 

[FinePoint]

What do you think of this chain about point 2?

I'm unsure exactly how it proves Acausality Type 4.

Could you elaborate?

 

[AlexSamDen]

I'm unsure exactly how it proves Acausality Type 4.

Could you elaborate?

It's about a higher degree of Aca4, the regular Aca4 in the verse is as concrete as it can be.

So yeah, there is a separate system in verse that binds Aca4 people and establishes a casual relationship between them, effectively being higher than their Aca4. Then there are the 2 characters mentioned in point 2 who should be bound by it, but instead they are literally not (like Aca4 unbound, but in this case they are Aca4 to something that already binds Aca4) and also rewrite that very relationship. From this they got a higher degree of Aca4

 

[FinePoint]

It's about a higher degree of Aca4, the regular Aca4 in the verse is as concrete as it can be.

So yeah, there is a system that binds Aca4 people and makes a casual relationship between them, effectively being higher than their Aca4. Then there are the 2 characters mentioned in point 2 who should be bound by it, but instead they are literally not (like Aca4 unbound, but in this case they are Aca4 to something that already binds Aca4) and also rewrite that very relationship. From this they got a higher degree of Aca4

Friend, I am not familiar with this verse.

Could you please start from the beginning? What system are you talking about? What makes it Acausality 4? How does it relate to these characters specifically?

 

[The_golden_and_silver_house94]

This all seems logical to me.

Thank you
If possible can you @ some staff