Akame Ga Kill Mid Tier 6-B Buffs Request

[JCJ1058]

So I’m gonna keep this brief. There’s a way to buff AGK mid tiers to Low 6B-6B.To keep things simple this will only be used to buff end game non top tier characters such as Base Akame, Incursio 2 Tatsumi, Leone, Mine, Wave, and Kurome. You could definitely argue more, but I wanna keep this relatively simple. First off, the means at which they’re buffed?



Ice Cavalry

Esdeath creates these soldiers in the war and each one contains power to create her ice storm.

This storm got 250 petatons with its initial calc, so I’ll use that here. Now, next.



Scaling



I know what you’re probably thinking if you’ve read AGK, “JCJ, Esdeath’s the verses top tier! Barely anyone scales to her at her peak!”. And with that I agree. However, I’m not scaling these guys to Esdeath’s full storm. Just the power that a single Ice Cavalry Soldier would hold. Mid tiers should scale to a singular soldier without an issue as multiple Teigu users are capable of damaging and breaking them with Teigu that mid tier endgame characters can scale to.

And Incursio 2 Tatsumi even fights and destroys a few before he takes his fight to Esdeath and proceeds to get stronger

So I feel like this should solidify mid tiers scaling to these guys. Now, the next question.



How strong would this make them



First it’s important to take the number of soldiers into account, which it’s stated that Esdeath created tens of thousands

Tens of thousands can range from 10,000 to 99,999. I’ll divide 250 by both results to get two different ends. The range gets between 0.0025 Petatons (2.5 Teratons) and 0.025 Petatons (25 Teratons). Meaning with this scaling, mid tiers would at lowest scale to small country. So I feel they should be buffed to Low 6B possibly 6B.



Conclusion



Using Ice Cavalry, middler diddlers in Endgame AGK can get small country at lowest and possibly even higher. So what are your thoughts? Any agreements or disagreements? Anything you’d like for me to elaborate on? Please feel free to share below.

Disagree:

Qawsedf234

 

[Ebihara]

This is under the wrong section. This should be under CRT. I'll asked to get this moved.

 

[CastoriceTheFifth]

Deku FRA

 

[JCJ1058]

This is under the wrong section. This should be under CRT. I'll asked to get this moved.

Preesh, sorry it’s been a while since I’ve posted

 

[Cropfist]

The soldiers don't each contain the full power of ice storm, it is divided amongst them.

 

[JCJ1058]

The soldiers don't each contain the full power of ice storm, it is divided amongst them.

That’s the point already made in my post. The yield of the storm gets divided amongst them by Ten’s of Thousands for this scaling.

 

[Cropfist]

That’s the point already made in my post. The yield of the storm gets divided amongst them by Ten’s of Thousands for this scaling.

The post says the opposite

Esdeath creates these soldiers in the war and each one contains power to create her ice storm.

 

[JCJ1058]

The post says the opposite

It doesn’t, read further into the post

I know what you’re probably thinking if you’ve read AGK, “JCJ, Esdeath’s the verses top tier! Barely anyone scales to her at her peak!”. And with that I agree. However, I’m not scaling these guys to Esdeath’s full storm. Just the power that a single Ice Cavalry Soldier would hold.

Post never says anything about each individual soldier scaling to the full yield. Even in the part you quoted, it simply states they contain power to create the storm, not that each individual one contains the full power of the storm. Which is before I elaborated on it, as shown in the quote above and in the original post.

The entire argument in the post is dividing the results of the storm among the soldiers, which is why the end results as shown don’t get higher than 25 teratons despite the full storm getting 250 petatons.

 

[PrinceofPein]

Honestly, the only question I have is, why should we scale the supposed energy the Ice soldiers contain to their durability and AP, there is no prove of them doing something remotely close to 6-B, AP or DC wise. And also it is not like they put all the energy they have into their AP or Dura, there is no UES in AGK

 

[JCJ1058]

Honestly, the only question I have is, why should we scale the supposed energy the Ice soldiers contain to their durability and AP, there is no prove of them doing something remotely close to 6-B, AP or DC wise. And also it is not like they put all the energy they have into their AP or Dura, there is no UES in AGK

I don’t really understand this question. Before Esdeath creates her storm she physically breaks them down and absorbs all the soldiers before the combined energy she stored is unleashed. Their entire bodies are made up of the power Esdeath used to create them. It wouldn’t make sense if the energy didn’t physically scale to them, when they’re a physical manifestation of said energy.

As for your thing regarding them having no DC feats in this level…. That’s a lot of characters. Not having the DC doesn’t debunk scaling in AP. I genuinely don’t see how this would debunk their AP being small country. Also they’re already multiple feats that get relative to this range in verse, so it wouldn’t just be an outlier either.

 

[Qawsedf234]

Reading it, the main issue with the proposal is that you're making a mistake of how we treat energy generation. To quote our FAQ on a similar concept:

Q: What is the Tier for possessing Infinite Power or Infinite Strength?​

A: Statements regarding infinite power, infinite strength, or unlimited quantities do not automatically indicate an ability to produce an infinite amount of energy at once. For example, a power source that never depletes could have an infinite quantity of energy, but can't necessarily be wielded with infinite magnitude (not all at once). Statements involving "infinite power/strength" must be clearly indicative of magnitude to qualify for tiering, in order to avoid inflated ratings or inconsistencies in a story. Further, the hyperbolic nature of the phrase must be taken into consideration, where characters are prone to describing someone's power as infinite in a context where it is so great as to be insurmountable from their perspective, but not truly infinite in a manner relevant to their tier. If proven, however, statements of infinite strength would qualify for High 3-A or higher if evidence regarding a higher degree of infinity above baseline is established.

While for a different tier, the logic is the same. The power source being Low 6-B is great, but unless you can prove the soldiers can wield that power in an appropriate magnitude of energy, then they wouldn't scale to it. That's why when Pein says this:

And also it is not like they put all the energy they have into their AP or Dura, there is no UES in AGK

He's indicating that AGK has no system that would allow them to convert their energy into AP in an easy fashion. Considering their energy never depleted by a notable amount throughout the war, it seems like they didn't really use up much (if any) of the power that Esdeath stored in them.

 

[JCJ1058]

Reading it, the main issue with the proposal is that you're making a mistake of how we treat energy generation. To quote our FAQ on a similar concept:

While for a different tier, the logic is the same. The power source being Low 6-B is great, but unless you can prove the soldiers can wield that power in an appropriate magnitude of energy, then they wouldn't scale to it. That's why when Pein says this:

He's indicating that AGK has no system that would allow them to convert their energy into AP in an easy fashion. Considering their energy never depleted by a notable amount throughout the war, it seems like they didn't really use up much (if any) of the power that Esdeath stored in them.

I’m still confused. It’s not like the power’s only stored up in a portion of them or anything. The power is actively what they’re made of. They’re the energy converted into Ice Soldiers. Which is again why, when Esdeath brings all that energy back it results in the soldiers breaking down. Their physical bodies are the stored power.

It’s no different from the method this forum uses to downscale Esdeath physically from her own storm and grant her large country-continental. Except here with the soldiers the downscaling’s greater. I don’t understand giving a general stamina or depletion system to the soldiers when biologically they’re sentient objects, so they wouldn’t have energy to deplete. Despite this, they clearly have killing intent and Tatsumi in Incursio 2 (Who Wave physically scales to, who could damage Shikoutazer) outright said they had the capability to kill him. And again, their bodies being fully made from this energy due to them being physical manifestations of it should allow for them to durability wise to scale to said energy.

 

[Qawsedf234]

I’m still confused

The easiest way I can explain this is with a battery

• A device is powered by a battery
• The device may be able to handle 100 Watt Hours of usage before the battery is drained, but if that entire 100 Watts were used at once, the device would destroy itself
• The magnitude of power the device uses is much lower than the total power of the energy source

The soldiers may contain or be powered by Low 6-B levels of energy, but unless you can prove they wield that energy in sufficient magnitudes/amounts, then they wouldn't scale to that value. Its the same reason why the Androids from Dragon Ball have a High 3-A/Tier 2 energy source but don't scale to that until much later in the series, as they don't learn how to manipulate that energy source in its full magnitude until then.

 

[JCJ1058]

.

The easiest way I can explain this is with a battery

• A device is powered by a battery
• The device may be able to handle 100 Watt Hours of usage before the battery is drained, but if that entire 100 Watts were used at once, the device would destroy itself
• The magnitude of power the device uses is much lower than the total power of the energy source

The soldiers may contain or be powered by Low 6-B levels of energy, but unless you can prove they wield that energy in sufficient magnitudes/amounts, then they wouldn't scale to that value. Its the same reason why the Androids from Dragon Ball have a High 3-A/Tier 2 energy source but don't scale to that until much later in the series, as they don't learn how to manipulate that energy source in its full magnitude until then.

They’re not just powered by it. They are physical manifestations of the energy. It’s not just a stamina source for them. Their entire bodies are the energy physically converted into sentient ice soldiers. The battery example doesn’t work here since again, it’s not something that’s stamina related. It’s converting power used to create a storm to fully create physical ice soldiers before she takes that power back by absorbing said soldiers to utilize in making the storm.

Which is again implied Esdeath absorbs the entire bodies of each soldier before unleashing the storm, as their physical bodies are being broken down in order for their combined energy to be shot back out as a storm.

 

[Qawsedf234]

They’re not just powered by it. They are physical manifestations of the energy

That doesn't matter. Unless you can show them wielding that energy in sufficient magnitudes, they wouldn't scale to the full amount.

Especially since we know they didn't use that much of it since Esdeath got a massive power boost, meaning the energy used to sustain their forms and to move around isn't overall that draining on them. I'm not agreeing with the proposal, so list me as disagreeing.

 

[JCJ1058]

That doesn't matter. Unless you can show them wielding that energy in sufficient magnitudes, they wouldn't scale to the full amount.

Especially since we know they didn't use that much of it since Esdeath got a massive power boost, meaning the energy used to sustain their forms and to move around isn't overall that draining on them. I'm not agreeing with the proposal, so list me as disagreeing.

Esdeath gets a massive boost because she absorbs every Ice Soldier before creating the storm. And as established, she created at least 10,000 which would be a massive power boost.

I don’t see why they would need a DC feat of their own when it’s very clearly shown that the entirety of all their physical bodies are made of the power utilized for the storm.

The point about it not being draining to them doesn’t make much sense to me, when they’re essentially sentient ice sculptures with no stamina system like humans would have.

I feel like you may be a little confused with what I’m proposing. I’m not scaling the Soldiers to the full 250 petaton yield of the storm. I’m scaling them to the power Esdeath used to physically make the entire physical construct of an individual Ice Cavalry Soldier.

Respectfully, this wiki does this exact same thing with Esdeath’s own physical scaling by taking the amount of Ice Soldiers she creates casually and scaling her physicals to that. I don’t see why you wouldn’t be able to scale the Ice Soldier’s AP or durability to… essentially themselves. It has nothing to do with stamina at all. Their creation are portions of Esdeath’s energy converted into physical constructs.

 

[PrinceofPein]

Esdeath gets a massive boost because she absorbs every Ice Soldier before creating the storm. And as established, she created at least 10,000 which would be a massive power boost.

I don’t see why they would need a DC feat of their own when it’s very clearly shown that the entirety of all their physical bodies are made of the power utilized for the storm.

The point about it not being draining to them doesn’t make much sense to me, when they’re essentially sentient ice sculptures with no stamina system like humans would have.

I feel like you may be a little confused with what I’m proposing. I’m not scaling the Soldiers to the full 250 petaton yield of the storm. I’m scaling them to the power Esdeath used to physically make the entire physical construct of an individual Ice Cavalry Soldier.

Respectfully, this wiki does this exact same thing with Esdeath’s own physical scaling by taking the amount of Ice Soldiers she creates casually and scaling her physicals to that. I don’t see why you wouldn’t be able to scale the Ice Soldier’s AP or durability to… essentially themselves. It has nothing to do with stamina at all. Their creation are portions of Esdeath’s energy converted into physical constructs.

I was the one who did the thread for Esdeath and I understand what you mean but this is clearly a different scenario. Esdeath was shown creating dozens of the soldiers at once, hence why she downscales for the CIC value. The soldiers themselves while containing the energy never used everything at once, unless your claim is that the soldiers replenishes themselves after they throw tier 6 punch each time, which will not be true as they are powered by Esdeath.
All in all, I also disagree with this.

 

[JCJ1058]

I was the one who did the thread for Esdeath and I understand what you mean but this is clearly a different scenario. Esdeath was shown creating dozens of the soldiers at once, hence why she downscales for the CIC value. The soldiers themselves while containing the energy never used everything at once, unless your claim is that the soldiers replenishes themselves after they throw tier 6 punch each time, which will not be true as they are powered by Esdeath.
All in all, I also disagree with this.

The point of scaling physicals via the soldiers is the same is what I’m getting at. You’re taking the value of the storm and dividing it by the amount of soldiers Esdeath could casually create to translate it to physicals. If the soldiers don’t even scale to their own energy, then what’s the point of using them to determine Esdeath’s physicals?

I genuinely don’t see why you couldn’t use the same method to scale the soldiers themselves physically to the energy that makes up their entire composition. I don’t even know how you’d gauge “Using everything at once” when their attacks are essentially just standard melee, but they’re clearly shown to have killing intent. And once again their bodies should just scale by default if they’re physically this energy condensed into soldiers. Their bodies don’t merely contain the energy. Their bodies are the energy.

 

[Qawsedf234]

I don’t see why they would need a DC feat of their own when it’s very clearly shown that the entirety of all their physical bodies are made of the power utilized for the storm.

Because you haven't shown that. Their power source can be downscaled from the storm, but nothing provided currently indicates they can use a notable amount of that power source for attacks. You'd have to show a feat, scaling or a UES system.

I feel like you may be a little confused with what I’m proposing.

I'm not confused and I understand what you're attempting to do. Despite that, I still disagree with the premise.

own physical scaling by taking the amount of Ice Soldiers she creates casually and scaling her physicals to that.

Well its only a possible rating for her, since we don't know if it does scale like that and no one scales to the High 6-A feat because it's environmental destruction rather than AP.

 

[JCJ1058]

Because you haven't shown that. Their power source can be downscaled from the storm, but nothing provided currently indicates they can use a notable amount of that power source for attacks. You'd have to show a feat, scaling or a UES system.

Said power source uses the energy materialized by their bodies to create the storm. Their bodies are the power that’s being stored. It’s not some stamina based energy that’s just stored within their bodies, it is their bodies. Which is again shown by the fact that when Esdeath brings them back, she actively absorbs the full body of each soldier. You’re essentially just saying that their durability doesn’t scale to their own bodies that are completely materialized by that energy. It doesn’t make sense in my eyes. Why do they need a feat of indication to prove that they scale to their own bodies? Especially when again, they’re shown to pose a threat to Incursio 2 Tatsumi who’s capable of staggering Esdeath, knocking around Shikoutazer, and deal damage to a serious Budo who’s comparable to Mine. Someone who could parry Esdeath’s casual attacks and threatened her with a blast. Narratively it makes sense for them to be this strong with the scaling, and the context is that the energy is literally manifested as their entire bodies.

Well its only a possible rating for her, since we don't know if it does scale like that and no one scales to the High 6-A feat because it's environmental destruction rather than AP

This just strikes me as double standards then, respectfully. You’re allowing Esdeath physical scaling to them for creating them (Which clearly depletes energy). But you don’t allow for the Ice Cavalry members to scale to their own bodies that are manifestations of the energy just because they don’t have showings of depleting energy when moving, despite the fact that they’re sentient ice sculptures so they wouldn’t be depleting energy in the same way a normal human would. What’s the point of even including them in the equation if they don’t scale to their own energy? It doesn’t matter if it’s given to them by another source, for the time being it’s still their energy that makes up the entire compound of their bodies.

 

[Qawsedf234]

It doesn’t make sense in my eyes.

If you took 100% of the potential energy generated by almost any power source and forced it to take it all or use it all at once, none of them would survive the energy feedback from that event. Having a certain level of energy doesn't mean much unless you can prove that they can wield it in sufficiently high amounts.

 

[JCJ1058]

If you took 100% of the potential energy generated by almost any power source and forced it to take it all or use it all at once, none of them would survive the energy feedback from that event. Having a certain level of energy doesn't mean much unless you can prove that they can wield it in sufficiently high amounts.

The issue is, you’re equating this to electricity when this isn’t at all the same thing. Battery’s aren’t physically constructed from the very energy that they’re holding.

The Ice Soldier’s don’t just contain the energy. They are the energy physically manifested as ice. So again, this is the equivalent of saying their bodies don’t scale… to their bodies. Since the entirety of their bodies are the energy that Esdeath’s storing.

 

[FinePoint]

The issue is, you’re equating this to electricity when this isn’t at all the same thing. Battery’s aren’t physically constructed from the very energy that they’re holding.

The Ice Soldier’s don’t just contain the energy. They are the energy physically manifested as ice. So again, this is the equivalent of saying their bodies don’t scale… to their bodies. Since the entirety of their bodies are the energy that Esdeath’s storing.

Even literally being made of a certain amount of energy doesn't mean you can utilize it all at once.

In a literal sense your body is made of on average, like, 1.5 billions of tons of TNT worth of energy as matter.
That doesn't make you High 7-A.

 

[JCJ1058]

Even literally being made of a certain amount of energy doesn't mean you can utilize it all at once.

In a literal sense your body is made of on average, like, 1.5 billions of tons of TNT worth of energy as matter.
That doesn't make you High 7-A.

This once again, doesn’t take into account energy being converted into a physical manifestation. Your entire body isn’t constructed by the energy that you have stored.

Comparing sentient ice structures to battery power or a normal human’s biology doesn’t work here. Especially when as said, this isn’t at all a stamina based thing. With the way Esdeath’s own powers are shown to work the energy is converted into manifested ice.

The energy isn’t just being stored within them. It’s their entire composition. Heck, this is further supported by the fact that Esdeath needs to actively

 

[FinePoint]

The energy isn’t just being stored within them. It’s their entire composition. Heck, this is further supported by the fact that Esdeath needs to actively

If they're made of that much energy, then to use it all at once would be to consume their entire body all at once.

I'm not sure how that would be applicable as a feat except as a one-time self-destruction.

 

[JCJ1058]

If they're made of that much energy, then to use it all at once would be to consume their entire body all at once.

I'm not sure how that would be applicable as a feat except as a one-time self-destruction.

I mean, it should still just flat out scale to their durability (as well as attacks with killing intent downscaling) since once again the entirety of the body’s composition is that energy manifested into ice.

Meaning their body’s durability should reasonably scale since their bodies are the energy condensed in ice form.

 

[AthelChan]

Deku FRA

LOL

 

[FinePoint]

I mean, it should still just flat out scale to their durability (as well as attacks with killing intent downscaling) since once again the entirety of the body’s composition is that energy manifested into ice.

Meaning their body’s durability should reasonably scale since their bodies are the energy condensed in ice form.

Technically it indicates nothing about their durability.
Energy can't be destroyed, so it's just a measurement of how easily it's disrupted, which doesn't necessarily have anything to do with the total energy present.

 

[JCJ1058]

Technically it indicates nothing about their durability.
Energy can't be destroyed, so it's just a measurement of how easily it's disrupted, which doesn't necessarily have anything to do with the total energy present.

I mean, if you wanna be technical. Esdeath physically converts her power into ice. It’s converted to matter. This moreso just goes back to the storm itself since it’s flat out created through the same means that Esdeath creates her Ice Cavalry except to a grander extent.

The whole reasoning used on this website for Esdeath’s physical stats is flat out through her scaling to multiple of the Ice Cavalry soldiers that she creates from her energy source. So I still fail to see how that works when you’re not scaling the soldiers to their own individual power yet scale Esdeath to their individual power. The whole narrative is that she absorbs them completely back to herself in order to use that stockpiled power of all the soldiers to create the storm.

When again, they’re not just storing the energy like a battery. They are the energy or power converted into matter.

 

[FinePoint]

The whole reasoning used on this website for Esdeath’s physical stats is flat out through her scaling multiple of the Ice Cavalry soldiers that she creates from her energy source. So I still fail to see how that works when you’re not scaling the soldiers to their own individual power yet scale Esdeath to their individual power.

Well I wasn't part of the creation of that profile nor any of its revisions, so that's not really relevant to me.

I will say that creating something out of the energy which can withstand a certain amount is probably better proof than simply being made of energy of a certain amount, since it involves an actual feat at least.

 

[JCJ1058]

Well I wasn't part of the creation of that profile nor any of its revisions, so that's not really relevant to me.

I will say that creating something out of the energy which can withstand a certain amount is probably better proof than simply being made of energy of a certain amount, since it involves an actual feat at least.

It’s a better feat, but that’s not what I’m getting at. I’m saying that their entire bodies are portions of the storm’s energy compressed into ice soldiers. There’s no storage for said energy as if they were a battery nor is it anything relating to stamina. It’s just power compressed into a sentient soldier.

Which is again supported by the fact that Esdeath absorbs the entirety of their bodies in order to gain that power back. And the fact that they can physically pose a threat to Incursio 2 Tatsumi who could stagger Esdeath and damage Budo. The ladder being capable of withstanding blasts from Mine and even outright having a struggle match with her strongest blast (Someone who can parry attacks from Esdeath and even forced her to use Mahapadma to avoid getting hit by one of her blasts).

Narratively the tiering works (Especially with the feats given) and them not scaling to the portions that they’re given for the storm would just mean that they don’t scale to their own bodies since they’re entirely composed of said energy that’s converted to ice as is done with all of Esdeath’s abilities.

 

[FinePoint]

Which is again supported by the fact that Esdeath absorbs the entirety of their bodies in order to gain that power back. And the fact that they can physically pose a threat to Incursio 2 Tatsumi who could stagger Esdeath and damage Budo. The ladder being capable of withstanding blasts from Mine and even outright having a struggle match with her strongest blast (Someone who can parry attacks from Esdeath and even forced her to use Mahapadma to avoid getting hit by one of her blasts).

I don't understand why you don't just stick to this part.

If there's clear feats and scaling, why bother making assumptions about how their bodies relate to their power?

 

[JCJ1058]

I don't understand why you don't just stick to this part.

If there's clear feats and scaling, why bother making assumptions about how their bodies relate to their power?

The feats of scaling are shown to prove the results gained by them downscaling the storm consistent.

The entire post was taking the storm itself and dividing it to a yield that would scale to an individual Ice Cavalry Soldier. The downscaling to Incursio 2 Tatsumi kinda just works as a support, who also scales to feats in a similar range to that; that the Ice Cavalry’s individual yield would get to.

Also, it’s not an assumption. You flat out can’t compare this to stamina or battery life when the entire purpose for creating the soldiers was that they’re storing portions of the storms power. Their bodies are purely made by that power and condensed of it.

 

[FinePoint]

Also, it’s not an assumption. You flat out can’t compare this to stamina or battery life when the entire purpose for creating the soldiers was that they’re storing portions of the storms power. Their bodies are purely made by that power and condensed of it.

I feel like we're going in circles, so I will stop commenting for now, and wait for more input.

 

[PrinceofPein]

I disagree with the thread.

 

[Telomera]

Considering their energy never depleted by a notable amount throughout the war, it seems like they didn't really use up much (if any) of the power that Esdeath stored in them.

That's a good point. It doesn't really make much sense for Esdeath to make what are essentially her batteries waste huge parts of the energy that they're storing. Kinda like that one Metroid downgrade thread that got passed a while back.