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CN Teenager vs Anime Girl

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The failsafe did activate actually, as you can see other versions of Ben got instantly erased as soon as they came in contact with the CTB wave. And when the wave phased through prime Ben, he wasn't erased at all. Only after Omnitrix left Ben's wrist (ad per his own decision because writers wanted to create a heroic moment), he got erased instantly.
Are you claiming that omnitrix directly gives Ben resistance to the erasure there, rather than transforming him into an alien that would let him survive? That's not listed on the profile. It looks like he gave it away just before getting erased.

Even if what you claimed was correct, omnitrix has nothing that would let it resist CM1 erasure. Ben can't just walk thourgh CM1 erasure like it's nothing.

The main argument is that failsafe would let Ben transform and stop time before the CM1 hits him, as he doesn't have any alien that would directly survive it.
 
I was thinking a wincon that could seal ben, Yukarı can't kill him that's before failsafe activates yeah but it's not like ben is completely ınvincible if she doesn't have any wincon i agree with this besides omnitrix getting malafunctioned in the show so many times this still a valid thing it could get malafunctioned and fail to save ben this is a very low chance to happen but it's not %0 ben is winning here with %90-95 chance here
Like... If failsafe saves Ben from any danger and works by predicting the future, Yukari effectively doesn't have any wincon, as the failsafe would prevent her from using any of them. Having a set %10 chance of winning doesn't really change much, does it? Yukari still has no wincons literally %90 of the time.
Yeah this scene has brought up in many threads for downgrades shit, this scene is P.I.S in my opinion this scene was made for a emotional moment that "it's just a gadget be the hero!" They wanted to give no watch ben a chance to prove himself so they needed to give omnitrix to him for the plot
"It's because of the plot!" is not really an argument. A lot of explanations can be made before saying it's an outlier:
  1. Omnitrix failsafe is omniscient and knew No Watch Ben would save its original owner by travelling back in time.
  2. Omnitrix failsafe can't be activated against complete erasure.
  3. Omnitrix failsafe can't activate when Ben himself doesn't know the threat.
  4. Omnitrix failsafe doesn't activate against an attack it cannot stop.
  5. Omnitrix failsafe can't activate against the source of the attack before the attack itself is made.
(These are just examples) If these aren't contradicted anywhere else, any of them can be reasonably the case. How did those downgrade threads end up exactly, can you link them? The current profile doesn't explain how exactly failsafe works, and so I would have to assume it's not the first option unless it's accepted in a CRT.

To clarify, you're claiming that failsafe would predict and activate before Yukari activates her CM1 erasure similar to the option 1, correct?
 
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Like... If failsafe saves Ben from any danger and works by predicting the future, Yukari effectively doesn't have any wincon, as the failsafe would prevent her from using any of them. Having a set %10 chance of winning doesn't really change much, does it? Yukari still has no wincons literally %90 of the time.
as i have said if yukarı have no wincon then there is nothing to discuss but if she have a wincon but ben prevents her from doing it that's match would be counted yes, matches based on winning via preveting someone's wincon is accepted for the profiles
"It's because of the plot!" is not really an argument lol. A lot of explanations can be made before saying it's an outlier:
Sure i will adress them as many as i can but literally tho the episode's plot was based on no watch ben to prove himself being a hero and save all timelines
  1. Omnitrix failsafe is omniscient and knew No Watch Ben would save its original owner by travelling back in time.
Could work but we don't have any confirmed thing about omnitrix being omniscient or not however for this situation no one is involved other than ben and omnitrix so we can't rely on this
  1. Omnitrix failsafe can't be activated against complete erasure.
Ben wanted an Alien that could be saved from Annihilarg's EE and he got it he did it manually but if neccecary omnitrix can choose the alien if ben is unable to hit the watch

  1. Omnitrix failsafe can't activate when Ben himself doesn't know the threat.
He literally saw what happend to other Ben's he knew what he was about get faced so pointless
  1. Omnitrix failsafe doesn't activate against an attack it cannot stop.
annihilarg was also an attack it cannot stop by itself but there was an Alien that could stop it with absorbing like Feedback could absorp chronosapien timebomb easily he has likely 1-B absorbtion capabilities
  1. Omnitrix failsafe can't activate against the source of the attack before the attack itself is made.
Omnitrix literally transformed ben before the annihilarg hits also the it transformed ben into Alien x before annihilarg gets activated in the scene i have given
(These are just examples) If these aren't contradicted anywhere else, any of them can be reasonably the case. How did those downgrade threads end up exactly, can you link them? The current profile doesn't explain how exactly failsafe works, and so I would have to assume it's not the first option unless it's accepted in a CRT.
I need to do research for them again i'm on my phone rn the omnitrix failsafe was involved to Alien x downgrades and almost all of them got rejected
To clarify, you're claiming that failsafe would predict and activate before Yukari activates her CM1 erasure similar to the option 1, correct?
Yes but i don't really know what is it based on like if it is precognition, omniscient intelligence, analytical prediction or Via pure AI system so i can't list the ability
 
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Like... If failsafe saves Ben from any danger and works by predicting the future, Yukari effectively doesn't have any wincon, as the failsafe would prevent her from using any of them.
It has shown to do both, but most of the times it goes with giving him the correct alien as Lort pointed out
  • Gave Alien X to survive a 6-D, likely 25-D erasure so that he could not just tank, but also recreate the Universe.
  • Gave Waybig to fight evil waybads because other usual aliens are physically weaker.
  • Transformed Ben into Feedback to absorb a 6-D, likely 25-D bomb and to redirect it towards Maltruant.
  • Again turned Ben into Alien X to fight Galactic Gladiator because no other alien species are on par with Celestialsapiens.
So in conclusion, Omnitrix has shown to do both and 95% of time it gives him the correct alien
Having a set %10 chance of winning doesn't really change much, does it? Yukari still has no wincons literally %90 of the time.

"It's because of the plot!" is not really an argument. A lot of explanations can be made before saying it's an outlier:
  1. Omnitrix failsafe is omniscient and knew No Watch Ben would save its original owner by travelling back in time.
  2. Omnitrix failsafe can't be activated against complete erasure.
  3. Omnitrix failsafe can't activate when Ben himself doesn't know the threat.
  4. Omnitrix failsafe doesn't activate against an attack it cannot stop.
  5. Omnitrix failsafe can't activate against the source of the attack before the attack itself is made.
(These are just examples) If these aren't contradicted anywhere else, any of them can be reasonably the case. How did those downgrade threads end up exactly, can you link them? The current profile doesn't explain how exactly failsafe works, and so I would have to assume it's not the first option unless it's accepted in a CRT.

To clarify, you're claiming that failsafe would predict and activate before Yukari activates her CM1 erasure similar to the option 1, correct?
Lort has answered these pretty well so yeah
 
To argue about something different
Yukari use magic right?


For what I know, the omnitrix defenses does not work against magic


Anything to say?
Who is Derrick? Looked up all ben 10 writers and he doesn't come up. Plus if a weakness this major actually existed, it should prolly be noted in the profile.
 
Who is Derrick? Looked up all ben 10 writers and he doesn't come up. Plus if a weakness this major actually existed, it should prolly be noted in the profile.
Derrick is the art director of Ben 10 omniverse, He is not a writer and this is a leading question that is unaccapted in vsbw standarts so this statement is literally non canon, omnitrix has resistance to magic in it's profile
 
Leading question, death of art director+ he is not a writer
The original omnitrix was also not magic proof as seen in the fourth film and magic in general is not compatible with the omnitrix or the omnitrix would have DNA of creatures from Legerdomain
Who is Derrick? Looked up all ben 10 writers and he doesn't come up. Plus if a weakness this major actually existed, it should prolly be noted in the profile.
Art director from omniverse, he answered questions from about Ben 10 Omniverse
 
Derrick is the art director of Ben 10 omniverse, He is not a writer and this is a leading question that is unaccapted in vsbw standarts so this statement is literally non canon, omnitrix has resistance to magic in it's profile
The original omnitrix was also not magic proof as seen in the fourth film and magic in general is not compatible with the omnitrix or the omnitrix would have DNA of creatures from Legerdomain

Art director from omniverse, he answered questions from about Ben 10 Omniverse
Well, if the profiles contradict it. And since he's not a writer in the first place, I don't think it's really that valid. Unless its been explicitly shown that the failsafe doesn't work against magical stuff. Which I don't believe has ever happened (Magic completely negging failsafe).

Ben's arguments are more convincing for me. Count me as a vote for ben for now.
 
Which I don't believe has ever happened (Magic completely negging failsafe).
The only case seems to be a rock monster biting the Omnitrix and the failsave just transformed Ben into ghostfreak which was locked beforehand
 
The only case seems to be a rock monster biting the Omnitrix and the failsave just transformed Ben into ghostfreak which was locked beforehand
The rock monster interacted with omnitrix and omnitrix released a giant shockwave same as the classic omnitrix when an opponent try to remove omnitrix forcefully so yeah that statement is literally useless
 
The rock monster interacted with omnitrix and omnitrix released a giant shockwave same as the classic omnitrix when an opponent try to remove omnitrix forcefully so yeah that statement is literally useless
The part where Ben was distransformed and transformed in a locked alien is getting ignored ❤️
 
The part where Ben was distransformed and transformed in a locked alien is getting ignored ❤️
Ghostfreak wasn't locked in that moment as far as i remember he transformed into Ghostfreak in ultimate alien he was just being afraid to get controlled by Ghostfreak again so he wasn't using it
 
To argue about something different
Yukari use magic right?


For what I know, the omnitrix defenses does not work against magic


Anything to say?
You are wrong, the magic in Ben 10 works differently than the magic in other VERSE because the magic in reality is MANA and not by nature
 
bro
how is failsafe stopping cm 1
it doesn't stop it but this happens
*yukari is about to use her powers (it was stated to be danmaku)
*omnitrix transforms ben into clockwork at imme speed via failsafe
*Clockwork stops time with a thought based method which is faster than Yukari's and uses BFR during timestop
 
It isn't stopping CM1 per se. They are arguing that the failsafe will predict that Yukari will use CM1, have Ben transform into Clockwork, and stop time before Yukari can activate CM1. Then BFR her.
bro what

failsafe can't even perceive something like CM 1 as of right now

if CM 1 existed in the verse then sure but it doesn't
 
No canon example in Ben 10 shows the failsafe responding to anything resembling metaphysical bs like cm 1 its a plain NLF
it literally can't perceive something bad is going to happen because CM 1 is beyond the scope of the verse
 
No canon example in Ben 10 shows the failsafe responding to anything resembling metaphysical bs like cm 1 its a plain NLF
it literally can't perceive something bad is going to happen because CM 1 is beyond the scope of the verse
We've already gone 3 pages discussing the same so it's better you go through it instead of derailing the thread without reading prior pages.
Even if you still disagree, at worst we'll count your vote to Yukari.
 
really tired of going the same things over and over again Omnitrix gave the same reaction to the things it hasn't faced before such as Annihilarg but yet it transformed him, the watch will predict it because ben will be dead from it so it transforms him, CM1 doesn't nullify predictions
 
We've already gone 3 pages discussing the same so it's better you go through it instead of derailing the thread without reading prior pages.
Even if you still disagree, at worst we'll count your vote to Yukari.
I’m not derailing??? I’m addressing a wild claim being made that the failsafe can perceive Type 1 conceptual attacks. If that’s already been resolved with actual evidence then it should be easy to quote or link it. Otherwise, reasserting it without backing doesn’t help the argument. this is straight up deflecting
really tired of going the same things over and over again Omnitrix gave the same reaction to the things it hasn't faced before such as Annihilarg but yet it transformed him, the watch will predict it because ben will be dead from it so it transforms him, CM1 doesn't nullify predictions
saying the omnitrix can predict conceptual manipulation because it reacted to the annihilarg is not good because Annihilarg isn't even remotely close to what CM 1 entails
CM1 doesn't need to "nullify predictions"? it just works outside the scope of anything the watch has shown it can react to. Unless there’s a direct canon example of the omnitrix handling conceptual-level threats, it doesn't add up
 
I don't get the logic behind "It wont be able to perceive something bad is going to happen because CM1 is beyond the scope of the verse". Why exactly does the omnitrix need to comprehend what CM1 is in order to just work? It has immeasurable speed. CM1 will have an affect on ben, whatever it is, if its not good then the omnitrix will stop it.

From the immeasurable speed segment of the speed page:
"They perceive infinite speed characters as completely frozen, and they can travel forward and backward in time at will. They have the speed necessary to hop from the beginning of time, to the end of time, and anywhere in between as casually as a human being can roll their eyes left or right. This also means their reaction time is faster than instantaneous. They can dodge an attack that already has been struck, and they can strike someone even before they launched an attack. And they can do all of this via sheer speed."

The omnitrix can travel at any point in time, and even react to attacks that have already struck ben.
 
saying the omnitrix can predict conceptual manipulation because it reacted to the annihilarg is not good because Annihilarg isn't even remotely close to what CM 1 entails
CM1 doesn't need to "nullify predictions"? it just works outside the scope of anything the watch has shown it can react to. Unless there’s a direct canon example of the omnitrix handling conceptual-level threats, it doesn't add up
man are you not getting it? the danmakus will kill ben in the result with or without conceptual manip omnitrix is predicting the thing it will end up ben with killing due AP diff and yukari's personality also we have concepts such as Alien X's personalities they own type 1 concept love and rage also magic which has conceptual manip are we really discussing about failsafe over that much already involved to other VS and ended up with no problems literally we are just making the pages longer
 
It isn't stopping CM1 per se. They are arguing that the failsafe will predict that Yukari will use CM1, have Ben transform into Clockwork, and stop time before Yukari can activate CM1. Then BFR her.
are you still voting yukari? i want to count votes, the arguments are literally based on the things we went over
 
I don't get the logic behind "It wont be able to perceive something bad is going to happen because CM1 is beyond the scope of the verse". Why exactly does the omnitrix need to comprehend what CM1 is in order to just work? It has immeasurable speed. CM1 will have an affect on ben, whatever it is, if its not good then the omnitrix will stop it.

From the immeasurable speed segment of the speed page:
"They perceive infinite speed characters as completely frozen, and they can travel forward and backward in time at will. They have the speed necessary to hop from the beginning of time, to the end of time, and anywhere in between as casually as a human being can roll their eyes left or right. This also means their reaction time is faster than instantaneous. They can dodge an attack that already has been struck, and they can strike someone even before they launched an attack. And they can do all of this via sheer speed."

The omnitrix can travel at any point in time, and even react to attacks that have already struck ben.
Just because the failsafe has immeasurable speed does not mean it can react to what it doesn’t comprehend or perceive. Immeasurable speed doesn't automatically grant awareness to things that exist on a conceptual bs level.
CM 1 doesn’t give the Omnitrix time to react — not because it's too fast but because it operates on a level the Omnitrix doesn't even acknowledge as real.
The failsafe is impressive but unless it’s shown to operate on the level of conceptual stuff this is just a case of scaling it way beyond what’s supported by canon.

like im not denying immeasurable speed itself can dodge CM 1, the problem is this verse hasn't shown to even comprehend such a thing
 
Just because the failsafe has immeasurable speed does not mean it can react to what it doesn’t comprehend or perceive. Immeasurable speed doesn't automatically grant awareness to things that exist on a conceptual bs level.
CM 1 doesn’t give the Omnitrix time to react — not because it's too fast but because it operates on a level the Omnitrix doesn't even acknowledge as real.
The failsafe is impressive but unless it’s shown to operate on the level of conceptual stuff this is just a case of scaling it way beyond what’s supported by canon.

like im not denying immeasurable speed itself can dodge CM 1, the problem is this verse hasn't shown to even comprehend such a thing
Doesn't have to comprehend the mechanics of CM1, just the fact that it affected ben in a manner that isn't pleasant. Also doesn't her CM1 comes from her danmaku anyways? Failsafe would definitely stop that from happening then. But again, even if its thought based, the effects it has on ben, whatever it is, would be enough for failsafe to work. Also it isn't like ben 10 is some low hax level verse with nothing near CM1. It has acausality, CM3, law, logic, nigh omniscience, reality warping on an absurd scale etc. CM1 is really not that far above its paygrade.
 
Doesn't have to comprehend the mechanics of CM1, just the fact that it affected ben in a manner that isn't pleasant. Also doesn't her CM1 comes from her danmaku anyways? Failsafe would definitely stop that from happening then. But again, even if its thought based, the effects it has on ben, whatever it is, would be enough for failsafe to work. Also it isn't like ben 10 is some low hax level verse with nothing near CM1.
let's not ignore the fact that the failsafe must detect some form of measurable, perceivable threat. If an attack affects Ben’s concept, it isn’t like pain, injury, or death — it’s conceptual damage, which doesn't generate a bio-signal or any physical harm the watch would detect. If the watch can’t perceive the mechanism or its effects as biological or temporal threats, it has no trigger to react to.
Even if it is danmaku, the effect is still cm type 1. It doesn't matter how the attack is delivered, what matters is what it does and the Omnitrix has never shown warning to conceptual-level effects regardless if its danmaku or not. The failsafe will not be able to stop something it doesn’t even register.
It has acausality, CM3, law, logic, nigh omniscience, reality warping on an absurd scale etc. CM1 is really not that far above its paygrade.
just because the verse has powerful stuff doesn't really mean anything. the presence of nice hax elsewhere in the verse isn’t proof
 
let's not ignore the fact that the failsafe must detect some form of measurable, perceivable threat. If an attack affects Ben’s concept, it isn’t like pain, injury, or death — it’s conceptual damage, which doesn't generate a bio-signal or any physical harm the watch would detect. If the watch can’t perceive the mechanism or its effects as biological or temporal threats, it has no trigger to react to.
Even if it is danmaku, the effect is still cm type 1. It doesn't matter how the attack is delivered, what matters is what it does and the Omnitrix has never shown warning to conceptual-level effects regardless if its danmaku or not. The failsafe will not be able to stop something it doesn’t even register.

just because the verse has powerful stuff doesn't really mean anything. the presence of nice hax elsewhere in the verse isn’t proof
How would Yukari's CM1 affect ben in a way that isn't perceivable?

From the CM1 page:
"The ability to manipulate, alter, or change concepts. By using this ability, concepts themselves can be changed in a variety of ways. The concept can have an object added to it, an object taken from it, or change the current principle of the concept"

"The ability to destroy or remove a concept. By using the ability concepts are removed from reality. This can be wide-spread or very targeted, either erasing the concept of an overarching fundamental principle, such as space, or an individual. When destroyed at this level, nothing can be restored without using a similarly powerful conceptual creation. Conventional regeneration or resurrection, no matter how powerful, would prove impossible as the very abstract concept of the character would not exist"

All of these are perceivable. Yukari destroys or removes ben as a concept? Perceivable. Yukari changes a principle of ben as a concept? Perceivable. Yukari adds or removes an object from ben as a concept? Perceivable. I do not know what you think will happen to ben as a result of CM1 that the failsafe will somehow not recognize. As if ben would look, act or at any level be the same at all if his very concept gets change. It's not like his concept changes and nothing else about him does, in fact its the very opposite, if his concept changes literally everything about him changes.

Also, it isn't even about what happens to ben, its the fact that anything happens to ben at all. Because of immeasurable speed the omnitrix can just compare the timelines where he does the wincon of time stop to the timelines where ben doesn't and discern a difference in ben after each respective timeline.

For your argument to work, Yukari's CM1 would have to somehow achieve a victory clause via SBA that the failsafe CAN'T perceive, which is literally impossible.
"Death of the opponent, removing the opponent from the battlefield for at least one week (BFR), knocking the opponent out for at least one hour, or incapacitating the opponent by putting him in a state in which he can not harm the other fighter(s) for over a day, are to be assumed as victory conditions."

How does the omnitrix not perceive any of these from happening.
 
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