Yokai vs Witch (Yukari Yakumo{Touhou Project)} vs Carrie Fernandez{Castlevania}) 4-2-1

[MysticBrawler]

Yukari Yakumo-4

Carrie Fernandez-2

Inconclusive - 1

Distance:100 meters
Speed Not Equal
SBA for the rest

 

[MysticBrawler]

Bump

 

[Greatsage13th]

Anything Charlotte has that is thought based?

 

[Wonder_of_Fantasy]

There's at least a 10x+ AP difference in Charlotte's favor from what I can put together.

I'll start by asking in what capacity Charlotte resists CM Type 1, as I do see that listed on her Resistances.

 

[Pixy]

It not even last a day and we already got new vs thread huh ? well I'm in
I see she's get nice regen and immortality negation hax she's can kill Yukari for sure the problem is. . .
How she deal with range user ? is her regen negation hax is with her regular attack ? cuz the range said Standard melee range with low multiversal with magic which IDK is that her spell range or only travel range

Also Eye for an Eye is interesting too but I don't know is it instant send dmg to foe ? or can it use against range user sorry this is first time I'm in castlevenia thread so I don't know a lot of stuff

and for summon attack in buttom of list she's shouldn't wasted magic to try them especially creatures one unless aid in melee combat and put that Skeleton with gun a side maybe send it to America I don't think gun is good enough to hit touhou character unless she can summon horde of them and make the area become bone zone then sure I wanna see it too

https://media.**********.net/attachments/1246832097142902814/1253022039133130822/If_Dark_Souls_Was_Anime_3_2.gif?ex=681e2bb6&is=681cda36&hm=e5fe66c72148e989e3d51179f92a7052ec1ba37ee55dce4fd5c3d9e6556acdd6&=

 

[Muteki616]

following.

 

[Theglassman12]

@Quibster She resists around 720+ layers worth of Conceptual hax from Dracula's magic. Basically anything and everything that stems from Dracula's magic is layered in the series.

 

[Wonder_of_Fantasy]

@Quibster She resists around 720+ layers worth of Conceptual hax from Dracula's magic. Basically anything and everything that stems from Dracula's magic is layered in the series.

Yeah I suspected as much.

Then it's a turbo stomp. We don't have that level of smurfery lol.

 

[Greatsage13th]

@Quibster She resists around 720+ layers worth of Conceptual hax from Dracula's magic. Basically anything and everything that stems from Dracula's magic is layered in the series.

Can resistance modification circumvent these?

 

[Pixy]

@Quibster She resists around 720+ layers worth of Conceptual hax from Dracula's magic. Basically anything and everything that stems from Dracula's magic is layered in the series.

Damn this girl make sure She will never have problem with concept abilities ever again

Can resistance modification circumvent these?

Nope I think that too much

 

[Wonder_of_Fantasy]

Can resistance modification circumvent these?

I mean if it's 720+ layers of Conceptual hax as Glass mentions, then sadly no.

I also don't think Yukari has enough evidence to suggest that her Resistance Modification can even reach that sort of value. Even then, we'd need a proper thread on it, which we don't have.

 

[Theglassman12]

@Quibster If you want you could use Carrie Fernandez as a fight, her resistances cap at 1 layer at best compared to the mainline series.

@Greatsage13th What exactly does the resistance modification do? And which resistances exactly?

 

[Greatsage13th]

@Greatsage13th What exactly does the resistance modification do? And which resistances exactly?

Its complicated, but since Quibster herself states that there is too many layers for it to work. I guess we do not need to pursue this scenario.

 

[Theglassman12]

We do have an alternate character to use that can make this more debatable, but if it's deemed pointless and no one objects I guess I can close the thread, but I'll wait for a response first.

 

[Wonder_of_Fantasy]

@Quibster If you want you could use Carrie Fernandez as a fight, her resistances cap at 1 layer at best compared to the mainline series.

Checked the contents of her page out and I think we can debate it, sure.

 

[Pixy]

@Greatsage13th What exactly does the resistance modification do? And which resistances exactly?

in short Youkai can re-modification their weakness like how Suika just straight up eat bean which there belief Oni are vulnerable to bean you know average ghost stuff
but that also mean only for themselve since only few have boundary manip they can't do to other ofc

 

[Wonder_of_Fantasy]

To be more clear, it's part of her Youkai Physiology;

Empowerment, Resistance Modification (Youkai are empowered by human's belief in the rituals that can be used to combat or exorcise them, using them as a basis to solidify their existence and influence. However, youkai are not bound by this, and can simply choose to be unaffected by such weaknesses on a whim, at the cost of the aforementioned empowerment. Youkai are even further empowered by the light of a full moon)

Edit: There's not really any metaphysical resistance acquiring that Yukari can get from this, so this is more or less conventional.

 

[Theglassman12]

So the resistance modification is mostly self inflicted to bypass a weakness youkais have?

 

[Greatsage13th]

So the resistance modification is mostly self inflicted to bypass a weakness youkais have?

Yep. Basically what hurts them won't hurt them anymore at the cost of what ever strengths it could have given.

 

[Theglassman12]

I assume it doesn't extend to some insane reaches like rewriting their harm to concept hax or something like that?

 

[Pixy]

I assume it doesn't extend to some insane reaches like rewriting their harm to concept hax or something like that?

We never see any Youkai do that before and I hardly believe Yukari could do it so Yep

 

[Wonder_of_Fantasy]

Well, this turned out to be a longer response than I had intended. Sorry in advanced, lol.

So the resistance modification is mostly self inflicted to bypass a weakness youkais have?

Sort of, but it's a little more complicated and meta than that. It is essentially one part of a greater verse-mechanic that could be better explained. So, for what it's worth consider this a supplementary crash-course;

The core of it is that the series repeatedly states that Youkai depend on human fear or belief to; define them, maintain their sense of self, and even maintain their existence. In Symposium of Post-mysticism, Kanako states that “the human heart which is in fear and awe of the unknown… produces youkai and gods”. In that same book, Miko states that "The human imagination should still be creating new youkai. Considering the nature of Youkai, they come about to rationalize irrationality... In other words, it is natural that some youkai who were meant to be ficticious exist."

Cage in Lunatic Runagate - Chapter 5 describes the nature of Youkai's existence with Humans at it's very basis;

The afforementioned "agreement in place" is referring to the Spellcard Rules.

All of this is to point that;

Youkai are empowered by human's belief in the rituals that can be used to combat or exorcise them, which gives them "meaning" and solidifies their existence. However, youkai are not bound by this, and can simply choose to be unaffected by such weaknesses on a whim, at the cost of the aforementioned empowerment. Youkai can be harmed by attacks that have an "origin", such as spiritual attacks with a name or a legend behind it [see note 1]. If a Youkai doesn't attack Humans, it loses the meaning of their existence. Moreover, when the details of a Youkai is not sufficiently defined by the human mind upon conception, it cannot maintain a sense of self, and ceases to exist. Youkai like this appear and dissapear every day in Gensokyo.

For more important context;

Upon Gensokyo's creation, Youkai were liberated from the spell of human imagination and obtained true freedom. Since then, Youkai went from lacking stable form to developing their own characteristics. Before the Creation of Gensokyo, the forms of Youkai had been influenced by Human Imagination, and Youkai Nowadays can change on their own.

Tangentially, Gensokyo is seperated from Outside World by the Boundary of Common Sense, better known as the Great Hakurei Barrier, and the Border of Fantasy and Reality. In Curiosities of Lotus Asia, Reimu states to Rinnosuke that "Gensokyo is the place it is because of Yukari's ability to control borders. Her power is what separates Gensokyo from the outside world. There really aren't any youkai in Gensokyo who could stand against her. Needless to say, a human probably wouldn't stand a chance either." That's also to say that Yukari is the one who created the Barrier, and by extension, Gensokyo itself.

Note 1: An example of this is how Vampires are weak to wooden stakes, Werewolves are weak silver bullets, and so on. This same logic applies to Youkai of that type.

---

At this point I could talk more about cosmology, brane/bulkspace stuff, but I feel this is already too excessive. Anyways, hope this is all somewhat helpful information.

 

[Theglassman12]

So before Gensokyo, all Youkai’s were restricted to a human’s beliefs as that would be what defines them as well as whatever weakness they’d have, but since Gensokyo was made, it essentially helps bypass that weakness as it’s their own utopia. Did I get the jist of that right?

 

[Wonder_of_Fantasy]

So before Gensokyo, all Youkai’s were restricted to a human’s beliefs as that would be what defines them as well as whatever weakness they’d have, but since Gensokyo was made, it essentially helps bypass that weakness as it’s their own utopia. Did I get the jist of that right?

Essentially, yes.

 

[Theglassman12]

What combat capabilities would this grant exactly? And is this something Yukari even starts off with?

 

[Wonder_of_Fantasy]

What combat capabilities would this grant exactly?

The scope is narrowed down to them being able to resist attacks with "meaning" that is mutually exclusive to a Youkai of particular type specifically. A hypothetical instance of this is how Vampires are, generally, believed to be capable of being killed through using wooden stakes - because Youkai are freed from human imagination, that belief no longer fully defines Vampires in the verse, as they can choose to be independent of those definitions thanks to the Boundary of Common Sense.

A direct example we see of this is when, Suika was able to ignore her inherent weakness to roasted beans under her empowerment justification. She makes the distinction that she can still interact with roasted beans, and that they only hurt when they are thrown at her with "meaning" behind it, such as during Setsubun (as stated by her in the second page of this scan). Without that "meaning", Suika is able to down an entire giant bowl of roasted beans. So what this essentially means is the act of throwing roasted beans by themself isn't sufficient to ward off an Oni. But, if it's done under the right conditions, such as celebrating Setsubun, then it would indeed harm an Oni, as Suika suggests in the scan above. We also know that Youkai are not affected by attacks without meaning, hence why Spellcards exist to also give Humans a chance at combating, and exterminating them.

As specific as this sounds, Setsubun is a holiday In the Outside World (and in the actual real world). In both contexts, it's culturally believed by humans that Oni (Suika in this case) can be warded away by throwing roasted beans at them. As I mentioned above, the existence of Youkai are influenced by human belief - this is one of those applications.

Point being that Youkai are affected is also determined by what culture, legends, and myths that defines as them. Over time, these beliefs become forgotten and pass into Fantasy (that being Gensokyo). Interestingly enough, this also applies to creatures in the outside world that have become extinct - as being totally forgotten or defined as unreal by the human mind is enough for something to pass into Fantasy (again, that being Gensokyo). What is defined as unreal by humans in the Outside World becomes more real in Gensokyo, and vice versa. This is essentially how the Boundary of Common Sense regulates Gensokyo - and by extension, the existence of Youkai and Gods.

Edit;

Another blatant example of this where Flandre was able to eventually surmount her weakness to flowing currents in Sunken Fossil World - as Vampires in the series are harmed by flowing water, such as rivers, and even rain. The only logical explanation for that is the Boundary of Common Sense enabling her to be independent of the beliefs that made Flandre (as a Vampire), Flandre.

And is this something Yukari even starts off with?

It's rooted in their physiology as described above. In a sense, it is passive.

 

[Theglassman12]

So beyond danmaku stuff, what does Yukari do exactly? Because Carrie’s mostly just someone who fires magic shots at her opponent or using whatever sub weapon she has on hand.

 

[MysticBrawler]

@Quibster She resists around 720+ layers worth of Conceptual hax from Dracula's magic. Basically anything and everything that stems from Dracula's magic is layered in the series.

Yeah I suspected as much.

Then it's a turbo stomp. We don't have that level of smurfery lol.

Damn this girl make sure She will never have problem with concept abilities ever again



Nope I think that too much

You know I checked the Castlevania homepage, multiple profiles(though admittedly I didn't check either Alucard or Dracula's profiles), and the Creatures of Chaos page, and I didn't see any mention of there being that many layers. So was this something that was recently added in a CRT, or has this already accepted for sometime now?

 

[Wonder_of_Fantasy]

You know I checked the Castlevania homepage, multiple profiles, and the Creatures of Chaos page, and I didn't see any mention of there being that many layers. So was this something that was recently added in a CRT, or has this already accepted for sometime now?

Sadly I am not the person who is knowledgeable with Castlevania. Glass or another supporter might be better suited for this one.

Writing a response to Glass's recent question as well.

 

[MysticBrawler]

@Quibster If you want you could use Carrie Fernandez as a fight, her resistances cap at 1 layer at best compared to the mainline series.

We do have an alternate character to use that can make this more debatable, but if it's deemed pointless and no one objects I guess I can close the thread, but I'll wait for a response first.

Regarding this would any of these characters work?(Sypha Belnades, Shanoa, Maria Renard)

 

[Wonder_of_Fantasy]

So beyond danmaku stuff, what does Yukari do exactly?

Danmaku is a guaranteed opener. After that, it's her Spellcards, which is always some flavor of her Conceptual Manipulation (Type 1). To save you the trouble of reading a wall of text again (Hi, it's me from 2 paragraphs in. There's actually a lot she can do!), the lower sections of her page covers it to a degree. Those privy to the verse also refer to this strictly as her Boundaryhax, as Yukari's trademark ability is to manipulate boundaries.

"Manipulating Boundaries"entails manipulating the fundamental boundaries between everything and the conceptual borders that exist between two things - which has some broad applications in and of it's own right. For the sake of my and other's sanity, we will stick to the boundaries she has feats of manipulating to avoid No Limits Fallacies. Some noteable examples of it's use include manipulating the Boundaries of; Life and Death, Matter and Anti-matter, Slave and Master, Form and Emptiness, Spring and Winter, and even Humans and Youkai.

It's also worth noting that, while she can employ both Danmaku and her Boundaryhax (typically in the form of Spell Cards. To make a clear distinction, in the games it is always declared when a spell card is going off/being activated.) at the same time, we also know that her Boundaryhax can be activated independently of her Danmaku, as is the case with other characters in the verse in respect to their own abilities. So, they are not mutually exclusive with one another.

As for offensive capabilities, Yukari's Portal Creation is one of her other go-to's. She can create inter-dimensional portals called "gaps", which are based on her ability to manipulate boundaries. The applications with her gaps generally involve attacking her opponents by portal'ing things from the Outside World to Gensokyo, and vice versa. This includes and is technically not limited to; attacking with stop signs, subway trains that explode upon impact, projecting and creating laser-like attacks - making them appear from a distance, and from several different appearing gaps. The most extreme use of these gaps we've seen is by ignoring conventional durability through creating a gap within her opponents and cleaving them in two. She can also do whatever this is.

Beyond her gaps, she can summon Ran and Chen to attack her opponents, Ran of whom is stated to be equal in power to Yukari, so long as she follows her will. Additionally, Ran is considered "the strongest of all beasts" - which makes her comparable to, if not greater in power than to the likes of the Animal Kingdom Matriarchs - such as Yachie, Saki, and Yuuma.

---

I spent quite some time writing this today, so I will take a break for now.

 

[Theglassman12]

@MysticBrawler its literally in Dracula and Alucard’s page on the established layers idk how you skipped that, as for your other question you probably shouldn’t use Shanoa given she has Dominus aura and some creatures of chaos transformations. Maria is somewhat better of an option but I’m pretty sure we’re all settled for Carrie (and tbh this is likely gonna be her only fight on the wiki with how obscure she is).

@Quibster seems Life and Death would be one of the abilities that wouldn’t work, matter and anti-matter can help, what exactly does slave and master mean here? Is it some roundabout form of mind hax or body puppetry to make her targets obedient to her or something? Don’t know what the other boundaries mean there so I’ll just wait for an elaboration.

So she has the numbers advantage. Carrie’s main advantage here is not only the stat gap but she also has the means to kill and interact with beings like the Youkais so it looks like it depends on if Carrie can land her killing shots or if Yukari can somehow evade any of her shots without dying.

 

[MysticBrawler]

@MysticBrawler its literally in Dracula and Alucard’s page on the established layers idk how you skipped that, as for your other question you probably shouldn’t use Shanoa given she has Dominus aura and some creatures of chaos transformations. Maria is somewhat better of an option but I’m pretty sure we’re all settled for Carrie (and tbh this is likely gonna be her only fight on the wiki with how obscure she is.)

Hmm I was actually thinking of not picking Carrie, since as you said she's a pretty obscure character, but if everone's okay with her then I guess it's fine.

 

[MysticBrawler]

Bump

 

[MysticBrawler]

Bump

 

[Wonder_of_Fantasy]

Yukari in particular seems to be getting more MU's after the LBD versus thread. Will respond to Glass' question tomorrow hopefully. Been distracted these last couple of days.

I'll briefly say that her feat of controlling the boundary between Slave and Master is from Antimony of Common Flowers. It is a very, very specific form of possession hax. It's also heavily related to the Urban Legend Incident, which, is also a bit of a complicated topic. More on these tomorrow.

 

[MysticBrawler]

Bump

 

[MysticBrawler]

Bump

 

[Johner2133451]

@MysticBrawler its literally in Dracula and Alucard’s page on the established layers idk how you skipped that, as for your other question you probably shouldn’t use Shanoa given she has Dominus aura and some creatures of chaos transformations. Maria is somewhat better of an option but I’m pretty sure we’re all settled for Carrie (and tbh this is likely gonna be her only fight on the wiki with how obscure she is).

@Quibster seems Life and Death would be one of the abilities that wouldn’t work, matter and anti-matter can help, what exactly does slave and master mean here? Is it some roundabout form of mind hax or body puppetry to make her targets obedient to her or something? Don’t know what the other boundaries mean there so I’ll just wait for an elaboration.

So she has the numbers advantage. Carrie’s main advantage here is not only the stat gap but she also has the means to kill and interact with beings like the Youkais so it looks like it depends on if Carrie can land her killing shots or if Yukari can somehow evade any of her shots without dying.

What's carrie in character moves

 

[Theglassman12]

Shooting magic blasts or using sub weapons. She’s not that complicated compared to other Castlevania characters