Denji vs Guts

[Acertainbcplayer]

Denji Post-Fear Boost vs Guts with Berserker Armor, equalized speed, fight take place in Chainsaw man hell, distance is 100m, both sides doesn't know the other's ability/strength, the rest is SBA.

Denji: @Bruh, @DrGreyman, @GodEarh206, @Doggo, @Jerry59, @MannyQ361,@Acertainbcplayer, @Ms.Luzifer

Guts:

Incon:

 

[Ruby_R_Dracula]

where tags

 

[Ruby_R_Dracula]

anyways put me in Incon until someone makes a good argument for one of the characters, I'm not too knowledgable on both characters

 

[Arkenis]

Denji's got zero resistance to his soul getting destroyed and regen negging. Unlike Guts, he has zero armor as well so really any hit is gonna mess him up. I don't see Denji surviving for long against a better fighter, a more relentless fighter, and better hax to slow down or debilitate Denji. This is a stomp if I'm not missing anything.

 

[DrGreyman]

Alright so, did some looking, please forgive me if i get something wrong i've never read berserk
Dragon Slayer specifically negates regeneration by causing wounds to constantly reopen, due to the soul being destroyed and that not being healed or smth like that

but they still do close at first, they just reopen after a time, and apparently the stronger the healing magic the slower the wound is to reopen. Now, hybrids' healing factors are insane, denji has actively come back from the dead multiple times, such as after being reduced to a head and having his body chopped up into pieces. if he was continuously drinking blood, like the blood that would be constantly falling off guts due to the berserker armor, i think he would be able to keep himself together, at least until he stopped getting a constant supply and immediately fell apart again from all the wounds reopening at once.
He has fought battles where he had to keep healing himself before, such as the 'perpetual motion machine' fight against the eternity devil.

quote from the notes on guts' page:

Notes:

• While there are claims that Dragon Slayer negates durability by attacking the soul, this is not true, nor are claims it outright possesses a busted degree of regeneration negation (this argument commonly phrased as something to the effect of "Dragon Slayer kills with a scratch"). Its power is more along the lines of creating wounds that will never fully recover, and even if healed or regenerated, they will open up again. This isn't full-blown regeneration negation but will function as such when it comes to more debilitating injuries.

 

[Acertainbcplayer]

Denji's got zero resistance to his soul getting destroyed and regen negging. Unlike Guts, he has zero armor as well so really any hit is gonna mess him up. I don't see Denji surviving for long against a better fighter, a more relentless fighter, and better hax to slow down or debilitate Denji. This is a stomp if I'm not missing anything.

Well not really, Denji has way higher LS (20x) with literally 5 Chainsaws (don't forget the legs) that are a 1 shot tier above his physicals, Denji could defend himself well.

Alright so, did some looking, please forgive me if i get something wrong i've never read berserk
Dragon Slayer specifically negates regeneration by causing wounds to constantly reopen, due to the soul being destroyed and that not being healed or smth like that

but they still do close at first, they just reopen after a time, and apparently the stronger the healing magic the slower the wound is to reopen. Now, hybrids' healing factors are insane, denji has actively come back from the dead after being reduced to a head and having his body chopped up into pieces. if he was continuously drinking blood, like the blood that would be constantly falling off guts due to the berserker armor, i think he would be able to keep himself together, at least until he stopped getting a constant supply and immediately fell apart again from all the wounds reopening at once.

quote from the notes on guts' page:

Notes:

• While there are claims that Dragon Slayer negates durability by attacking the soul, this is not true, nor are claims it outright possesses a busted degree of regeneration negation (this argument commonly phrased as something to the effect of "Dragon Slayer kills with a scratch"). Its power is more along the lines of creating wounds that will never fully recover, and even if healed or regenerated, they will open up again. This isn't full-blown regeneration negation but will function as such when it comes to more debilitating injuries.

Well that's good to know

 

[Arkenis]

I don’t see him getting Guts blood here with the armor already protecting him and his greater range and his acrobatics.

 

[Arkenis]

Well not really, Denji has way higher LS (20x) with literally 5 Chainsaws (don't forget the legs) that are a 1 shot tier above his physicals, Denji could defend himself well.

One shot tier doesn’t make sense, they’re just higher. Could make the same argument for Guts here. His LS won’t matter if he can’t grab Guts or just gets his arm cut off.

 

[Acertainbcplayer]

I don’t see him getting Guts blood here with the armor already protecting him and his greater range and his acrobatics.

So we need to debate whether Gut's acrobatics is good enough to stop Denji with superior LS to close the distance then. How good is Gut's acrobatics really? Cause from what I see on the page, Denji has way better feats since Katana man fight

 

[DrGreyman]

denji has the same range blocks as guts does with his chains
and the berserker armor causes people to passively hurt themselves by removing their limits and makes them go into a mindless rage, wouldn't he just charge at denji caution be damned?

 

[Acertainbcplayer]

One shot tier doesn’t make sense, they’re just higher. Could make the same argument for Guts here. His LS won’t matter if he can’t grab Guts or just gets his arm cut off.

It makes sense though? He literally could cut his head (yes, the metal head) like butter if he likes. Denji's higher LS means he could just outright wins because Guts can't use his big sword to overwhelm Denji and keep him in place.

 

[Arkenis]

So we need to debate whether Gut's acrobatics is good enough to stop Denji with superior LS to close the distance then. How good is Gut's acrobatics really? Cause from what I see on the page, Denji has way better feats since Katana man fight

They do your basic jumping in combat to evade of jumping far. Denji just also has surface scaling. He just cuts Denji’s arm off when he tries grabbing

denji has the same range blocks as guts does with his chains
and the berserker armor causes people to passively hurt themselves by removing their limits and makes them go into a mindless rage, wouldn't he just charge at denji caution be damned?

No he lasted a good amount aware and even after being controlled it still fought good.

It makes sense though? He literally could cut his head (yes, the metal head) like butter if he likes. Denji's higher LS means he could just outright wins because Guts can't use his big sword to overwhelm Denji and keep him in place.

That’s what weapons usually do. There’s nothing impressive about cutting your head off with a weapon.

 

[Epiccheev]

Blood and guts and guts and blood and
Blood and guts and guts and blood and
Blood and guts and guts and blood and
Blood and guts and guts and blood and
Blood and guts and guts and blood and
Blood and guts and guts and blood and
Blood and guts and guts and blood and

 

[Acertainbcplayer]

That’s what weapons usually do. There’s nothing impressive about cutting your head off with a weapon.

Not cutting your head off with a weapon, but cutting OPEN his head, basically what Denji did is lobolomizing himself to endure Falling's mind attack, and his metal head has shown to be able to resists piercing attacks before meaning to cut open his metal head, his Chainsaws will need to be a 1 shot tier above his normal flesh and that's at least.

Flesh in csm CAN resists slashing attacks btw, Asa in her normal human body outright blocked Yoshida's slash with her bare arm after just a spike of fear boosts.

 

[Arkenis]

Not cutting your head off with a weapon, but cutting OPEN his head, basically what Denji did is lobolomizing himself to endure Falling's mind attack, and his metal head has shown to be able to resists piercing attacks before meaning to cut open his metal head, his Chainsaws will need to be a 1 shot tier above his normal flesh and that's at least.

It doesn’t in Csm and it’s not on page.

 

[Acertainbcplayer]

They do your basic jumping in combat to evade of jumping far. Denji just also has surface scaling. He just cuts Denji’s arm off when he tries grabbing

Denji is more versatile than Guts, he has 5 attacking/blocking options, has regen that, by DrGreyman's logic, could outheal the effect of Gut's sword (and that's only if Guts hits Denji with his sword) and overall has more options than Guts who uses a greatsword, if he gets close he might overwhelm Guts with his superior LS.

LS isn't just about grabbing, Denji could use his Chainsaw and overwhelm Guts the same way that's the thing. And can Guts use his other close range weapons when in Berserker armor? Because if Denji gets close, then his Dragon Slayer wouldn't do much there, how would he even cuts Denji's arm off with a sword that big while being grab? And I heavily doubt a dagger or something could even scratch Denji.

It doesn’t in Csm and it’s not on page.

"Higher" is already enough, even Genos's profile has his "one shot tier above base form" as merely "higher", not completely on profile doesn't mean you could just ignore them as a "higher" rating is already enough. If you want scans, I could provide you, and that's enough for my argument to be valid.

 

[DrGreyman]

ok i will say, the sword is very much a big threat
and with how reckless denji is he is 100% getting cut at some point during the fight
but i still think if he gets close he could get a healing stream to stave off the opening wounds, especially since the armor specifically makes people ignore the wounds they are sustaining, meaning blood would be flowing freely even just from guts pushing his body to the limits

and again, denji can detach his chains and use them as whips to get the same range as guts' crossbow and cannon

with the chains and his higher LS, he could bind up guts from range or use them to force guts into extremely close quarters, and then the chainsaws really shine since they don't need momentum to cut things, unlike dragon slayer, even just holding them against the armor would be doing constant damage

 

[Acertainbcplayer]

It doesn’t in Csm and it’s not on page.

Scans btw. No momentum needed, he just kinda casually did that.

 

[Arkenis]

Scans btw. No momentum needed, he just kinda casually did that.

I’m saying its not a tier above on page. And its a chainsaw, whole point is fast blades cutting fast, so yeah it’ll look casual. You’re exaggerating the ap really.

 

[Acertainbcplayer]

I’m saying its not a tier above on page. And its a chainsaw, whole point is fast blades cutting fast, so yeah it’ll look casual. You’re exaggerating the ap really.

You seems to misunderstand what I mean by "a one-shot tier above" because if it's not "a one-shot tier" above in my language, it ain't cutting through anything like butter. Yeah, it definitely not a 50x or something AP, but it's enough to completely treat Denji's head like butter and can casually bisect Denji's body (which is on profile btw). So that means Denji's Chainsaws could treat something that scales higher than his flesh (and is made from metal) like butter while his flesh alone scales more than 4x above baseline Guts ("more than" because of the "at least" key), if that's ain't at least a 15-20x then idk what is.

Overall, with the level of LS he has, Gut's armor and sword would not look good at a direct confrontation over a long time.

 

[Epiccheev]

Scans btw. No momentum needed, he just kinda casually did that.

There's also his fight with spear devil wich almost made whip throw up

 

[Bruh]

Correct me if im wrong but Denji's physicals is roughly 3x that of Guts while his chainsaws are roughly 4x and lets not even even talk about LS. How many hits can Dragonslayer takes before it starts braking

 

[Arkenis]

You seems to misunderstand what I mean by "a one-shot tier above" because if it's not "a one-shot tier" above in my language, it ain't cutting through anything like butter. Yeah, it definitely not a 50x or something AP, but it's enough to completely treat Denji's head like butter and can casually bisect Denji's body (which is on profile btw). So that means Denji's Chainsaws could treat something that scales higher than his flesh like butter while his flesh alone scales more than 4x above baseline Guts ("more than" because of the "at least" key), if that's ain't at least a 15-20x then idk what is.

Overall, with the level of LS he has, Gut's armor and sword would not look good at a direct confrontation over a long time.

I attribute the higher ap to what the saws function is, cutting really fast repeatedly. Seems like higher ap, but it’s the same ap repeated. What happens when Guts just cuts through Denji grabbing him?

Correct me if im wrong but Denji's physicals is roughly 3x that of Guts while his chainsaws are roughly 5x and lets not even even talk about LS. How many hits can Dragonslayer takes before it starts braking

Where is this 5x coming from? And base to base it’s 3x, the armor makes him stronger to the point he can fight and beat Grunbeld.

Regardless, these aren’t even close to being a one shot and there’s the fact Guts can take the beating due to the armor it really won’t matter.

 

[Acertainbcplayer]

I attribute the higher ap to what the saws function is, cutting really fast repeatedly. Seems like higher ap, but it’s the same ap repeated. What happens when Guts just cuts through Denji grabbing him?

Better question, how? Dragonslayer isn't a small sword, it's also heavy and is better for long range. How is Guts gonna cut Denji's arm grabbing him realistically when his LS is WAY inferior even? He can't perform a cut with dragonslayer WHILE being grabbed, especially when it's this close range too. Guts will also suffer from Denji's repeated damage from Chainsaws which will create even more pressure onto him, he's not in any condition to cut Denji.

My first question is: Can he use anything else other than dragonslayer/long range weapons while wearing the armor? And if he has a close range weapon that could help him effectively cut Denji's arm, then what is it? Cause a mere dagger isn't gonna scratch Denji, especially when Guts has 0 momentum due to being grabbed.

Where is this 5x coming from? And base to base it’s 3x, the armor makes him stronger to the point he can fight and beat Grunbeld.

Regardless, these aren’t even close to being a one shot and there’s the fact Guts can take the beating due to the armor it really won’t matter.

Yea, the armor is the sole reason why this match was even possible to begin with due to Denji's Chainsaws, but just to remind you that his chainsaws scales way higher than his base physicals for the reasons I already stated, which could be equal to Guts in Berserker armor, or maybe just a lil bit weaker (I'm saying this because idk how much the armor actually buffs him, I can't give a proper estimation and maybe you could?) so it's up to you to prove that his armor could last long enough, because Denji's Chainsaws can cut metals that scales above his flesh body quite easily, that remains a sole fact.

 

[Bruh]

Where is this 5x coming from?

My bad its more like 4x as Denji chainsaws upscale from 443 t. Regardless even a swipe from Denji would probably take off Guts limb as Denji have against those comparable to him (who are all superior to Guts physicals). And with the LS advantage, each times they clash Guts would probably gets send flying. Also Denji can send out his chains to bind his opponent with these chains being fast enough to outpace those comparable to him. If he gets Guts, then Guts will just get ragdoll around, if he gets Dragonslayer then there's no way for Guts to prevent himself from getting disarmed

 

[Arkenis]

My bad its more like 4x as Denji chainsaws upscale from 443 t. Regardless even a swipe from Denji would probably take off Guts limb as Denji have against those comparable to him (who are all superior to Guts physicals).

Against people with no armor.

And with the LS advantage, each times they clash Guts would probably gets send flying. Also Denji can send out his chains to bind his opponent with these chains being fast enough to outpace those comparable to him. If he gets Guts, then Guts will just get ragdoll around, if he gets Dragonslayer then there's no way for Guts to prevent himself from getting disarmed

LS isn’t about clashing, if he tries pressing down on Guts then yeah but Guts can just move and attack from a different angle. Guts can cut the chains off.

 

[DrGreyman]

the point is with the LS denji could prevent guts from even swinging his sword by wrapping them around him
and again, guts needs momentum for dragon slayer to actually do damage, the leverage he could get with his arms pinned to his sides wouldn't be anywhere near enough to cut through the chains

 

[Acertainbcplayer]

Against people with no armor.

Denji can cut his head like butter, so the point still stands. His head is made out of metal, basically a helmet for him.

LS isn’t about clashing, if he tries pressing down on Guts then yeah but Guts can just move and attack from a different angle. Guts can cut the chains off.

How can Guts cut the chains off, that is the question. For example, if Denji wraps the chains around Guts (which includes his hands), what's Guts gonna do with his clearly inferior LS? You always argue "Guts will cut this and that off when Denji grabs him" or something, but you never explain how he would do so. Like how in the world would Guts use his clearly big hunk of metal of a sword to cut something that's wrapping around him? Worse, if Gut's hands gets wrapped around, or grabbed by Denji, how on earth would he realistically be able to move his big sword around? And yes, that's back to my question that you haven't given an answer for, yet again...

If chain is mid-flight, best Guts could do is sent them flying to another direction, as the difference in AP is not great enough/Gut's sword is a hunk of metal, it ain't a sharp sword like Atomic Samurai that could swiftly cuts everything.

 

[Acertainbcplayer]

bump

 

[Bruh]

I vote Denji for now

 

[DrGreyman]

Voting Denji FRA

 

[Acertainbcplayer]

Bumppppp

 

[Foriaa]

How good is Gut's acrobatics really?

Wickedly good, he jumps around like a demonic ninja when he's using the armor

 

[Foriaa]

Passive Probability Manipulation (Due to the circumstances of his birth, he has the supernatural ability to evade certain death)
Analytical Prediction (Correctly predicted in his first fight with Nosferatu Zodd that focusing his attacks on Zodd's sword to break it was his strongest bet at survival. As the Black Swordsman, would go on to fight several duels with Serpico, one of the best fencers in the setting, and could see through his tactics and predict his moves each time, even when he had territorial advantage)
Soul Manipulation (Can damage the soul)

How does Denji deal with this?

 

[DrGreyman]

"Guts' Probability Manipulation is likely not quite as effective in a VS match as it is in-story, as many of the times he's survived were due to outside help. While still otherwise applicable and even potentially highly effective, this does limit his potential options for a bailout with luck hax."

 

[Foriaa]

"Guts' Probability Manipulation is likely not quite as effective in a VS match as it is in-story, as many of the times he's survived were due to outside help. While still otherwise applicable and even potentially highly effective, this does limit his potential options for a bailout with luck hax."

Yea I peeped, it's still should be regarded as a major factor to the battles outcome.

 

[DrGreyman]

Though much of his survival is predicated on sheer determination and willpower, Guts' life has been filled with instances where his survival was largely coincidental. As an infant, he was left to die beneath the corpse of his hanging mother, yet he still released a healthy cry upon being discovered by Gambino and his mercenaries. The Skull Knight notes that Guts "began [his] life from death" and possesses a flair for escaping it. Such instances include, but are not limited to:

• During one of Gambino's mercenary operations, Guts is the only survivor of a decoy charge, where his fellow mercenaries are all killed by a volley of arrows.
• After being shot off a cliff by Gambino's mercenaries, he survives the fall, fends off an attack from a pack of wolves, and is taken in by another mercenary band.
• During his hostage-taking of a noble's son, he reaches out for Chitch's unclasped flower, causing an archer behind him to miss a shot aimed at his back and instead hit the noble's son.
• In his duel with Bazuso, his survival is heavily dependent on Bazuso's ax cracking before it can cleave his head.
• Between his enlistment into the Band of the Falcon and his reappearance as the band's raiders captain three years later, he survives a battle where he is the sole survivor among a myriad of fallen soldiers, leading Griffith to marvel at his "luck of the devil".
• Despite Zodd's prediction of Guts' demise during the Eclipse, he contends against the hordes of apostles — even after nearly all of his comrades are slaughtered — and ultimately survives the sacrificial ceremony.

So, what, can he just not lose a fight? Denji's saws can't jam since they work off of the chainsaw devil's supernatural biology, and denji can repair them same as he can keep his body together if he just keeps attacking

And saying for whatever reason Guts is fated to never die, weird but whatever, denji could still incapacitate him or seriously maim him while not actually killing him, still winning the fight
for example, sawing off his legs/arms

 

[Foriaa]

So, what, can he just not lose a fight?

It's just a lot harder for him to get fcked in situations where most people would.

 

[DrGreyman]

Well, the thing about denji is that his plans are very much not complicated
There wouldn't be many places where luck is a factor, it's just his stats against guts' with a little bit of strategy thrown in for spice
and like i said, supernatural luck making denji spontaniously break down could be worked around

 

[Acertainbcplayer]

Bump p p p