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Omniscient Reader's Viewpoint: VSPA Part 3

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Lycenum_lycopersicum

Lycenum_lycopersicum

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Hi, this is third and final part of Omniscient Reader's Viewpoint VSPA and will concern Outer Gods.

For better uderstanding I wil mention that Final Wall was approved as 1-A and all abilities relating to Story Manipulation page were approved too.

Nonexistent Physiology (All Natures - All Aspects [Logic, Causality, Law, Time, Life, Death, Fate & Plot]), Chaos Manipulation, Void Manipulation, Acausality (Type 5) & Nonduality (Type 3 - The Outer Gods are the same type of existences as the Constellations.Without their physical manifestations, Outer Gods are beings born from Chaos and rooted in the Outer Universe which is a Void, the sheer lack of existence, Chaos being "something" that exists outside the order of the World, a disorder which inherently lacks qualities and differentiations including nonexistence and existence, laws, logic, Life and Death, fate, plot, fundamental information that are erased from within it and causality. The qualities and distinctions that are part of the Order of the World pair completely with their opposites to form Dualities such as Good and Evil, Yin and Yang, Nonexistence and Existen Life and Death, Reality and Fiction, etc. and some are encompassed by "Walls" which are fragments of Final Wall. Ultimately chaos cannot be recorded by Final Wall)
 
I don't see anything for ND3 except ND1. That's not Truth state

ND3
1. True
2. False
3 both T-F
4 neither both T-F
5 Transceded or other

Unless you need to elaborate, like:
1. Good
2. Not-good(evill)
3. The wall separating good and evill(encompassed good and evill)
4. Chaos Neither Good - Evill
5. Transceded , encompassed everything/ etc , Blah blah
 
Ihsjihahxu said:
I don't see anything for ND3 except ND1. That's not Truth state

ND3
1. True
2. False
3 both T-F
4 neither both T-F
5 Transceded or other

Unless you need to elaborate, like:
1. Good
2. Not-good(evill)
3. The wall separating good and evill(encompassed good and evill)
4. Chaos Neither Good - Evill
5. Transceded , encompassed everything/ etc , Blah blah
Click to expand...
I see, I will look if we can try to explain it any better, otherwise you agree with other hax?
 
Ihsjihahxu said:
I don't see anything for ND3 except ND1. That's not Truth state

ND3
1. True
2. False
3 both T-F
4 neither both T-F
5 Transceded or other
Click to expand...
My fault. I was planning to add it when I made the thread, but when I delegated it, I forgot.

Well here's what it is:
1- Good
2- Evil
3- Both Good and Evil
4- Neither Good nor Evil (in the verse, something that is neither Good nor Evil is also both Good and Evil, weird)
5- Chaos - Supposed Nonduality (Chaos is very different, it is neither Good nor Evil but is not both at the same time, which makes it different from the values 3 & 4, making it a completely separate value where it is neither 3 nor 4)
6- Wall of Good and Evil/Final Wall (they do not take any of these values because they encompass this duality and they have qualitative superiority)

Chaos's relationship with Final Wall makes it completely Nondual.
 
Digital_Franz said:
My fault. I was planning to add it when I made the thread, but when I delegated it, I forgot.

Well here's what it is:
1- Good
2- Evil
3- Both Good and Evil
4- Neither Good nor Evil (in the verse, something that is neither Good nor Evil is also both Good and Evil, weird)
5- Chaos - Supposed Nonduality (Chaos is very different, it is neither Good nor Evil but is not both at the same time, which makes it different from the values 3 & 4, making it a completely separate value where it is neither 3 nor 4)
6- Wall of Good and Evil/Final Wall (they do not take any of these values because they encompass this duality and they have qualitative superiority)

Chaos's relationship with Final Wall makes it completely Nondual.
Click to expand...
How do you prove that “Good” and “Evil” are truth states? I think they are more like a duality system at the conceptual level. You need to prove that both of them fully encompass all concepts.
 
Kavliaris said:
i'm bit skeptical. irc, do we have feat Dokja and Outer Gods exhibit any benefit and distinction from being non-dual?
Click to expand...
Yeah like resisting attacks that affect 'Good' and attacks that affect 'Evil'.
Hirotoswnn1x said:
Does mean all dual system such as life-death , yin-yang and others were from ‘Good’ and ‘Evil’ which were created to differentiate those duality?
Click to expand...
HMm the duality of Yin and Yang is likely derived from Good and Evil, for the others we don't know. We only know that they exist, probably they were created later.
 
Digital_Franz said:
HMm the duality of Yin and Yang is likely derived from Good and Evil, for the others we don't know. We only know that they exist, probably they were created later.
Click to expand...
Hmm… If it can be proven that ‘Good’ and ‘Evil’ derived other dualities and are the origin of other dual systems in verse, I think that would be enough to qualify as a truth state, ND3 might be possible.
 
Lycenum_lycopersicum said:
I think it is more like everything goes into binary state of either good or evil in ORV
Click to expand...
‘Good’ was simply a collection of countless stories. Perhaps this means it represents a concept-level existence. Originally, concept shapes the entirety of reality, and everything is ‘participates’ in it. It’s similar to how ‘Good’ exists in abundance and is a collection of countless stories. Because of this, I still don’t think ‘Good’ represents the binary state of everything.
 
Hirotoswnn1x said:
‘Good’ was simply a collection of countless stories. Perhaps this means it represents a concept-level existence. Originally, concept shapes the entirety of reality, and everything is ‘participates’ in it. It’s similar to how ‘Good’ exists in abundance and is a collection of countless stories. Because of this, I still don’t think ‘Good’ represents the binary state of everything.
Click to expand...
then td3 is cooked😞
 
Hirotoswnn1x said:
‘Good’ was simply a collection of countless stories. Perhaps this means it represents a concept-level existence. Originally, concept shapes the entirety of reality, and everything is ‘participates’ in it. It’s similar to how ‘Good’ exists in abundance and is a collection of countless stories. Because of this, I still don’t think ‘Good’ represents the binary state of everything.
Click to expand...
No. Well, I'm going to clarify some things here.

Good is not a collection of stories, and it never has been. Clearly in the scan the character doesn't know what Good is, more so he sees a collection of stories that are already aligned with Good and through that he deduces "these are the Good stories." The ones that aren't are directly Evil, there's clearly a dichotomy. It's literally like that with our dualities like Yin and Yang. I don't think we have a way to prove that these are state values instead of just stating that they are.

Now this, which happens chapters later, relates the creation of everything and how everything works, with Good and Evil serving to distinguish the stories and not being just a "collection" of stories. Yin-Yang is a duality, a textbook one and it comes from Good and Evil.

There is the Wall that divides Good and Evil and it is clearly shown that Good and Evil is part of the order of the world, enough to show that it is a duality and not a collection of stories.
 
Digital_Franz said:
No. Well, I'm going to clarify some things here.

Good is not a collection of stories, and it never has been. Clearly in the scan the character doesn't know what Good is, more so he sees a collection of stories that are already aligned with Good and through that he deduces "these are the Good stories." The ones that aren't are directly Evil, there's clearly a dichotomy. It's literally like that with our dualities like Yin and Yang. I don't think we have a way to prove that these are state values instead of just stating that they are.

Now this, which happens chapters later, relates the creation of everything and how everything works, with Good and Evil serving to distinguish the stories and not being just a "collection" of stories. Yin-Yang is a duality, a textbook one and it comes from Good and Evil.

There is the Wall that divides Good and Evil and it is clearly shown that Good and Evil is part of the order of the world, enough to show that it is a duality and not a collection of stories.
Click to expand...
He(hiro) added that he agreed with ND3 , since good and evil were originally binary systems(duality) that acted as Truth state
 
Antvasima said:
@FinePoint

Are any of you willing to help out here please? It does not seem very time-consuming. 🙏
Click to expand...
I'll try, but I'll first mention I've literally never heard of this verse before.
So forgive any misunderstandings. This is a lot to take in all at once.
Lycenum_lycopersicum said:
Nonexistent Physiology (All Natures - All Aspects [Logic, Causality, Law, Time, Life, Death, Fate & Plot]), Chaos Manipulation, Void Manipulation, Acausality (Type 5) & Nonduality (Type 3 - The Outer Gods are the same type of existences as the Constellations.Without their physical manifestations, Outer Gods are beings born from Chaos and rooted in the Outer Universe which is a Void, the sheer lack of existence, Chaos being "something" that exists outside the order of the World, a disorder which inherently lacks qualities and differentiations including nonexistence and existence, laws, logic, Life and Death, fate, plot, fundamental information that are erased from within it and causality. The qualities and distinctions that are part of the Order of the World pair completely with their opposites to form Dualities such as Good and Evil, Yin and Yang, Nonexistence and Existen Life and Death, Reality and Fiction, etc. and some are encompassed by "Walls" which are fragments of Final Wall. Ultimately chaos cannot be recorded by Final Wall)
Click to expand...
NEP: Seems good.

Chaos Manipulation/Void Manipulation: These are abilities, so not sure they're lumped in with passive characteristics.
What are their specific feats of manipulating these things, rather than just being made of them?

Acausality 5: Shouldn't this be Type 4 instead? I see a lot of evidence of being affected by other things within their own framework or above. For example, being "born in the Chaos" at all implies a cause and effect outside of their control. If they were truly immutable, wouldn't they have always existed, and not be inside of or the product of something else?

I might be overthinking it, or not fully understand it, but I know Type 5 is usually a tier 0 thing requiring very clear definition of being absolutely unaffected by any cause or effect in any context, not just the traditional one.

Nonduality 3: Seems fine.
Lycenum_lycopersicum said:
Story Manipulation and Plot Manipulation (Chaos can interfere with the narrative structure of stories, including the sentences written on the Final Wall)
Click to expand...
Agree.
Lycenum_lycopersicum said:
Click to expand...
There's an ability specifically for this.
Lycenum_lycopersicum said:
Click to expand...
Obvious.
Lycenum_lycopersicum said:
Click to expand...
Obvious, and answers my previous question about Void Manipulation.
Lycenum_lycopersicum said:
Click to expand...
Perfectly fine.
 
FinePoint said:
Acausality 5: Shouldn't this be Type 4 instead? I see a lot of evidence of being affected by other things within their own framework or above. For example, being "born in the Chaos" at all implies a cause and effect outside of their control. If they were truly immutable, wouldn't they have always existed, and not be inside of or the product of something else?
Click to expand...
Yeah, it is still Acausality 4 since, in the vsbw standards, Acausality type 5 requires both being beyond causality and an unchangeable statement. Without the unchangeable statement, which has not been proven here, so it is still just Acausality type 4.
 
FinePoint said:
Acausality 5: Shouldn't this be Type 4 instead? I see a lot of evidence of being affected by other things within their own framework or above. For example, being "born in the Chaos" at all implies a cause and effect outside of their control. If they were truly immutable, wouldn't they have always existed, and not be inside of or the product of something else?
Click to expand...
Being born into Chaos is more of a "merge into Chaos and lose all your qualities" kind of thing. Probably it would be best if for now it just goes to Type 4 because the justification I have uses a rather delicate element of the verse.
FinePoint said:
I might be overthinking it, or not fully understand it, but I know Type 5 is usually a tier 0 thing requiring very clear definition of being absolutely unaffected by any cause or effect in any context, not just the traditional one.
Click to expand...
Characters who are not Tier 0 may have the ability, and lesser forms above all so they can still be affected although these cases are difficult to deal with.
 
Elizhaa said:
Acausality would be type 4 like said before; acausality type 5 largely required to strong evidence of being unchanging like discussed.
I guess fear manipulation would be aura like discussed. The rest seems fine.
Click to expand...
the acausality type change and aura will be added. Do we need a third approval to close the thread?
 
Lycenum_lycopersicum said:
Hi, this is third and final part of Omniscient Reader's Viewpoint VSPA and will concern Outer Gods.

For better uderstanding I wil mention that Final Wall was approved as 1-A and all abilities relating to Story Manipulation page were approved too.

Nonexistent Physiology (All Natures - All Aspects [Logic, Causality, Law, Time, Life, Death, Fate & Plot]), Chaos Manipulation, Void Manipulation, Acausality (Type 5) & Nonduality (Type 3 - The Outer Gods are the same type of existences as the Constellations.Without their physical manifestations, Outer Gods are beings born from Chaos and rooted in the Outer Universe which is a Void, the sheer lack of existence, Chaos being "something" that exists outside the order of the World, a disorder which inherently lacks qualities and differentiations including nonexistence and existence, laws, logic, Life and Death, fate, plot, fundamental information that are erased from within it and causality. The qualities and distinctions that are part of the Order of the World pair completely with their opposites to form Dualities such as Good and Evil, Yin and Yang, Nonexistence and Existen Life and Death, Reality and Fiction, etc. and some are encompassed by "Walls" which are fragments of Final Wall. Ultimately chaos cannot be recorded by Final Wall)
Click to expand...
Logic and information aspect dies immeadiately if there's an actual reader evaluate this but for the sake of agendas I agreed
 
Lycenum_lycopersicum said:
i can maybe see the logic point. however, the information aspect is,pretty much, the clearest of all
Click to expand...
I'd argue their existence (like the verse in general not everything) is more plot than information, like, stories and everything. Thus from one material it could only be either one
 
eibwen said:
I'd argue their existence (like the verse in general not everything) is more plot than information, like, stories and everything. Thus from one material it could only be either one
Click to expand...
OK at this point you're arguing for your own belief. Good. Don't spread misinformation here please.
 
Digital_Franz said:
OK at this point you're arguing for your own belief. Good. Don't spread misinformation here please.
Click to expand...
You do realize the narrative isnt information right? yes there are word, yes there are description, and it really looks like what you'd call information, but fundementally they are not
not trying to argue against one of my fav verse either, also, i'm saying all this because everything you're doing is what I once tried to argue, but on other platform, so just a heads up on the backlash
 
eibwen said:
I'd argue their existence (like the verse in general not everything) is more plot than information, like, stories and everything. Thus from one material it could only be either one
Click to expand...
it was already discussed in story manipulation CRT. since stories are described as most fundamental information particles that constitute reality and changing the content of which will reflect on reality accordingly, it qualified for IM2 which is why information aspect is included
 
eibwen said:
You do realize the narrative isnt information right? yes there are word, yes there are description, and it really looks like what you'd call information, but fundementally they are not
Click to expand...
Uh that's just what you feel. Stories are information, whether you think so or not, it's your problem.
eibwen said:
not trying to argue against one of my fav verse either, also, i'm saying all this because everything you're doing is what I once tried to argue, but on other platform, so just a heads up on the backlash
Click to expand...
You tried, yeah sure but I don't think we share the same arguments. Other platform, yeah not my business, how they evaluate things is not the same so don't come here and disrupt the thread with what you got.
 
Lycenum_lycopersicum said:
Nonexistent Physiology (All Natures - All Aspects [Logic, Causality, Law, Time, Life, Death, Fate & Plot]), Chaos Manipulation, Void Manipulation, Acausality (Type 5) & Nonduality (Type 3 - The Outer Gods are the same type of existences as the Constellations.Without their physical manifestations, Outer Gods are beings born from Chaos and rooted in the Outer Universe which is a Void, the sheer lack of existence, Chaos being "something" that exists outside the order of the World, a disorder which inherently lacks qualities and differentiations including nonexistence and existence, laws, logic, Life and Death, fate, plot, fundamental information that are erased from within it and causality. The qualities and distinctions that are part of the Order of the World pair completely with their opposites to form Dualities such as Good and Evil, Yin and Yang, Nonexistence and Existen Life and Death, Reality and Fiction, etc. and some are encompassed by "Walls" which are fragments of Final Wall. Ultimately chaos cannot be recorded by Final Wall)
Click to expand...
NEP seems fine, don't agree with Nonduality Type 3 or Acausality Type 5.
Well here's what it is:
1- Good
2- Evil
3- Both Good and Evil
4- Neither Good nor Evil (in the verse, something that is neither Good nor Evil is also both Good and Evil, weird)
5- Chaos - Supposed Nonduality (Chaos is very different, it is neither Good nor Evil but is not both at the same time, which makes it different from the values 3 & 4, making it a completely separate value where it is neither 3 nor 4)
6- Wall of Good and Evil/Final Wall (they do not take any of these values because they encompass this duality and they have qualitative superiority)
Click to expand...
I need more evidence proving that Chaos being neither Good nor Evil is different from the version that makes you both Good and Evil.
Lycenum_lycopersicum said:
Click to expand...
Seems fine.
 
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