Obligatory Undertale Yellow Sans Fight (GRACE)

[Eden_Warlock99]

LV20 Clover is used (Flowey is ded)
Speed is NOT equalized
(Hypersonic end for sans)
Fight takes place Judgement Hall​

sans: 7 (O0DSF0o, H3110l12345I20, Diamond_Drone, Walker21232123, HonestlyBored24, Flowerguy2, Eden_Warlock99)

Clover: 0

Incon:

 

[H3110l12345I20]

As a person who's read repetitive matches, and the fact that a lot of Clover matches are defacto duo ones with Flowey in the background, what would make this fight any different than the Frisk/Flowey fight against Sans in Canon?

I swear if Clover stomps, this match would get peak pretty quickly considering how virtually everyone treats DT as some OP thing. Considering how one my Clover v. Johan debates went.

If there's even the slightest chance the anomaly will make it to their goal, how is Sans even going to stop Clover anyways?

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

What would make this fight any different than the Frisk/Flowey fight against Sans in Canon?

It’s definitely a similar kind of fight, mostly because SAVE/LOAD will still play a major role here. And it's probably not all that big of game changer considering sans has a 1–1 record against people who can SAVE/LOAD (Beat Flowey, Lost to Frisk).

Character-wise, while Frisk and Flowey were primarily driven by curiosity, Genocide Clover sees every monster as responsible for the deaths of the six fallen humans and acts as a self-appointed executioner. Because of that, sans' KARMA (The guilt part of it) will probably hit Clover harder than it hit Frisk or Flowey.

Mechanically, Clover is also a lot more versatile than Frisk was during their sans fight. They have healing ACTs, can dash, and Yellow Mode allows them to attack during the sans's turn (Though Blue Mode could potentially screw with that). Plus, being LV 20 means Clover has 99 HP, a slight edge over Frisk.
On the flip side, Clover is a lot slower. Even their shots which are several times faster than Clover themselves, are still twice as slow as Frisk was at the point they fought sans.

 

[H3110l12345I20]

It’s definitely a similar kind of fight, mostly because SAVE/LOAD will still play a major role here. And it's probably not all that big of game changer considering sans has a 1–1 record against people who can SAVE/LOAD (Beat Flowey, Lost to Frisk).

Character-wise, while Frisk and Flowey were primarily driven by curiosity, Genocide Clover sees every monster as responsible for the deaths of the six fallen humans and acts as a self-appointed executioner. Because of that, sans' KARMA (The guilt part of it) will probably hit Clover harder than it hit Frisk or Flowey.

Mechanically, Clover is also a lot more versatile than Frisk was during their sans fight. They have healing ACTs, can dash, and Yellow Mode allows them to attack during the sans's turn (Though Blue Mode could potentially screw with that). Plus, being LV 20 means Clover has 99 HP, a slight edge over Frisk.
On the flip side, Clover is a lot slower. Even their shots which are several times faster than Clover themselves, are still twice as slow as Frisk was at the point they fought sans.

And the fact that Clover has Azzy for standard equipment, a flower that has beaten Sans and has stated to have killed all monsters or done all he could ever do in the underground (or at least most of the things he could do). I'll reread rules regarding this point later before pressing foward on this point.

I'm pretty sure Clover having the motive to kill makes him do the same battle goal as Frisk and Flowey.

The Elephant in the room is regarding how DT works here. You can do trial and error on everything and become smart like Flowey. The process of motivation is "Anomaly spots target, Anomaly does trial and error to get goal over target, anomaly succeeds and moves on." Sans pretty much did everything in his power to survive and control the flow of info against Flowey and Frisk, and yet, both DT users still managed to kill him at least once.

I'll post the scans in a moment to let you see where I'm getting at

 

[H3110l12345I20]

These 2 scans above are literally on Azzy's profile. And I rescanned the rules, and as far as I know, technically, Flowey is an active participant. The only vague "Is Pluto a planet" thing here is if Flowey is allowed to do anything else besides DT assistance. I could say he's only allowed as equipment, but what if the "equipment" starts nudging Clover to victory, or at worse, decides to try and step in?

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

And the fact that Clover has Azzy for standard equipment.

I should’ve clarified this in the OP, but Clover is going in solo here, mainly cause LV20 Clover already killed Flowey by the time they got to Judgment Hall.

One important difference between Clover and other "anomalies," as you put it, is how they interact with SAVE/LOAD. This Clover only just gained it themselves and they never really experiment with it in the other routes (The Player sometimes doing so is never acknowledged by Flowey, so fair to say it's not intended).
Clover does use SAVE/LOAD tactically (Memorizing Ceroba's patterns, constantly retrying against Martlet, this whole sequence), but even UTY Flowey immediately gave up on them after just one fight against Asgore where they got steamrolled. So you get the idea.

Clover also hasn't really gone against someone like sans before. Ceroba is probably the closest, busted danmaku, paralysis and Max HP reduction, but even then she doesn't really compare to sans (Near instantly kill Clover if they slip up, can attack them in their own turn and force a stalemate with his Special Attack if things go as intented).
sans is also way more mentally dangerous to Clover than he ever was to Frisk or Flowey. Curiosity made Frisk and Flowey almost impossible to discourage, but Clover fights out of a sense of "justice," a shaky one at that (Dug through Zenith Martlet’s memories, not to find a weakness, but to find a reason to justify killing her, to convince themselves they aren't the villain). That coupled with KR's guilt trip effect and sans also being an actual physical threat, means Clover's far more likely to crack than Frisk ever was.

 

[O0DSF0o]

Voting sans for the reasons above

 

[H3110l12345I20]

I should’ve clarified this in the OP, but Clover is going in solo here, mainly cause LV20 Clover already killed Flowey by the time they got to Judgment Hall.

Then rewrite the OP so Flowey is excluded, that way there's not even the slightest chance Azzy gets to assist them with their combat exp.

One important difference between Clover and other "anomalies," as you put it, is how they interact with SAVE/LOAD. This Clover only just gained it themselves and they never really experiment with it in the other routes (The Player sometimes doing so is never acknowledged by Flowey, so fair to say it's not intended).
Clover does use SAVE/LOAD tactically (Memorizing Ceroba's patterns, constantly retrying against Martlet, this whole sequence), but even UTY Flowey immediately gave up on them after just one fight against Asgore where they got steamrolled. So you get the idea.

If Clover knows how to use his DT tactically, I don't see why he would through trial and error, memorize and dodge all of Sans' patterns.

Clover also hasn't really gone against someone like sans before. Ceroba is probably the closest, busted danmaku, paralysis and Max HP reduction, but even then she doesn't really compare to sans (Near instantly kill Clover if they slip up, can attack them in their own turn and force a stalemate with his Special Attack if things go as intented).
sans is also way more mentally dangerous to Clover than he ever was to Frisk or Flowey. Curiosity made Frisk and Flowey almost impossible to discourage, but Clover fights out of a sense of "justice," a shaky one at that (Dug through Zenith Martlet’s memories, not to find a weakness, but to find a reason to justify killing her, to convince themselves they aren't the villain). That coupled with KR's guilt trip effect and sans also being an actual physical threat, means Clover's far more likely to crack than Frisk ever was.

And yet, Geno Clover managed to get the humans souls last time I checked, a feat even Flowey couldn't really do.

If Clover has a chance of cracking and deciding to give up in this fight, I'll give it to Sans. He knows how to hold his own against "anomalies" even if it's stacked against him. Sans FRA; be my worthy successor Eden_Warlock.

 

[Diamond_Drone]

Then rewrite the OP so Flowey is excluded, that way there's not even the slightest chance Azzy gets to assist them with their combat exp.

Personally, I don't think that's really necessary considering the profile does state that Flowey dies during the point Clover reaches LV 20 and it was probably intended by the creator of the profile that Flowey would only does SAVE & LOAD stuff like in the game. Basically Flowey wouldn't actually contribute anything to Clover to win the fight in any way besides respawning them even if he was included.

Anyways about the match, I do think Sans would win with the arguments given by Eden (even though technically Sans has that note about Empath Manip. being useless) but also due to the fact he has a 10x speed advantage against Clover and Blue Mode, which would make dodging attacks that rely on precision and prior knowledge way more difficult and leading to Clover giving up way quicker. Sans fra

 

[Walker21232123]

sans fra

 

[HonestlyBored24]

Funny Bone Man FRA

 

[Flowerguy2]

Sans FRA

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

I'll go ahead and make it Grace