How would one qualify for Plot Manipulation without direct narrative/fictional feats?

[Rikimarox2]

Pretty much the title. Yes, I'm trying to wank to see if one of the characters I'm indexing qualifies.

So, I've read the Plot Manipulation page, and the way one qualifies for it is usually if the verse itself mentions Narratives, or Plot/Story. Though, there are other characters like Castlevania characters who got it due to the effects of a book altering reality itself, and since whatever is written just comes true I think.

So, what are the ways that one can qualify for this without direct statements of altering the plot/narrative, and is there any chance that stuff like Fate can be equated to plot?

For example, if Fate in a verse was stated to be a "story", and with mentions of "Author", I don't assume that is enough for it to be Plot Manip? If so, then what is exactly the difference between Fate and Plot Manip, when their effects are kinda similar, with different causes? I know it sounds pretty silly for some people, but I'd like any input on this.

Yes I'm desperate, I wanna see how far Wank Wei can get.

 

[SweetDao]

If so, then what is exactly the difference between Fate and Plot Manip, when their effects are kinda similar, with different causes?

There is none. Both do exactly the same thing but with a different skin.

Ask yourself the question with something else than plot, let's say CM. Could you prove conceptual manipulation even if the verse never mentions it? Probably. There can be synonyms (Essence, Names, Daos,...) or there can be an exotic fundamental aspect that works "the same way". The important thing is to see which "fundamental aspect" is the closest to what the verse has. Of course, sometimes it's probably just impossible to have a "closest" one, so you index it as something exotic.

Thing is, in your case, Fate being compared to "story" and people capable of manipulating Fate being called "authors" is like the first metaphor/analogy possible when talking about Fate. Unless you have other backup, it might be difficult to give anything BUT Fate Manipulation. At least, that's my opinion on it.

 

[Rikimarox2]

There is none. Both do exactly the same thing but with a different skin.

Then why would one that resists, say, Plot Manip, not be able to resist Fate Manip if they do the exact same thing? Is it similar to the fact that say, paralysis via Poison and Pressure Points are two different things?

Ask yourself the question with something else than plot, let's say CM. Could you prove conceptual manipulation even if the verse never mentions it? Probably. There can be synonyms (Essence, Names, Daos,...) or there can be an exotic fundamental aspect that works "the same way". The important thing is to see which "fundamental aspect" is the closest to what the verse has. Of course, sometimes it's probably just impossible to have a "closest" one, so you index it as something exotic.

Thing is, in your case, Plot being compared to "story" and people capable of manipulating Fate being called "authors" is like the first metaphor/analogy possible when talking about Fate. Unless you have other backup, it might be difficult to give anything BUT Fate Manipulation. At least, that's my opinion on it.

Yeah, that's what I thought as well. Thing is, for the verse I'm indexing, there are stuff like "NPCs" and the world being called like a "Video Game" with the supreme being there that controls everything being called "Game Administrator" or smth like that. I wanted to see if it was possible to index Fate Manip as Plot Manip as well. If you have the time, I can send the feats if you are willing to check if they work. Though they are all Analogies iirc, but considering the similiarities to Plot Manip, idk.

Honestly, It feels weird. Both Plot and Fate are similar, so I don't get why one cannot resist the other if they resist one of them, especially if they are both controlling all of reality, and have similar statements. The only thing that I get is if the narrative is like, higher reality or smth, ie 1-A or just a dimension above normal reality. But if it's the same level of reality, I don't understand the difference.

But I'll wait, I've heard people stating that they are not the same, and stuff like "They control the narrative!", when the Narrative is all of reality itself, but idk. I'll wait for now, as I'm not knowledgeable about Plot stuff.

 

[SweetDao]

Then why would one that resists, say, Plot Manip, not be able to resist Fate Manip if they do the exact same thing? Is it similar to the fact that say, paralysis via Poison and Pressure Points are two different things?

Anything I say here is purely my opinion on the subject, so maybe the standards are completely the opposite of what I'll say. I just wanted to preface that.

I'm personally only indexing "Plot Manip" if there is a proof that "Plot" is an underlying, fundamental aspect of reality. For example, someone writing "the story of the world" inside a book, being able to change events, create new stuff etc etc through it wouldn't qualify for Plot Manipulation, it's just RW with a skin to me.

Fate, unless I'm cruelly mistaken, is rarely (never?) a fundamental aspect of reality the way concepts, daos, information, etc works. It's more like a "mechanism" of a verse ig.

Therefore, without any further context or explanation, a "plot manipulation" would be "stronger/impossible to resist" for someone who merely resist "Fate Manipulation". Obviously, if there are all sorts of feats or if the "Fate" itself is something special, it could work, but then we're working with "what if" at that point.

Yeah, that's what I thought as well. Thing is, for the verse I'm indexing, there are stuff like "NPCs" and the world being called like a "Video Game" with the supreme being there that controls everything being called "Game Administrator" or smth like that. I wanted to see if it was possible to index Fate Manip as Plot Manip as well. If you have the time, I can send the feats if you are willing to check if they work.

By that logic, couldn't you also make the argument for Information Type 2? Which one would be legitimate then? Personally, names are just that, names, so unless it's 100% proven that "information or narrative/plot" exist/underlines the verse, I think staying with Fate is the best move here. Also, sure, you can send feat if you wish, although again, I may have a completely different opinion than what the standards here says.

Honestly, It feels weird. Both Plot and Fate are similar, so I don't get why one cannot resist the other if they resist one of them, especially if they are both controlling all of reality, and have similar statements.

If you can prove that "Fate" (in your verse) works a certain way and that "Plot" (of another verse) works the same way, in a versus match, both aspect could be equalized, if that can put your mind at ease. Obviously both the thing "aren't the same thing" but "since they work 99,9% the same way, we can see them as similar things".

The only thing that I get is if the narrative is like, higher reality or smth, ie 1-A or just a dimension above normal reality. But if it's the same level of reality, I don't understand the difference.

Personally, even with 1-A, I don't think that seeing someone "write the lower world reality through a book" as enough for Plot, could just be RW again. (And well, technically speaking Plot is just RW with a skin, too.)

 

[Rikimarox2]

Anything I say here is purely my opinion on the subject, so maybe the standards are completely the opposite of what I'll say. I just wanted to preface that.

I'm personally only indexing "Plot Manip" if there is a proof that "Plot" is an underlying, fundamental aspect of reality. For example, someone writing "the story of the world" inside a book, being able to change events, create new stuff etc etc through it wouldn't qualify for Plot Manipulation, it's just RW with a skin to me.

Some verses got plot manip for that iirc (Castlevania comes to mind), so idk.

Fate, unless I'm cruelly mistaken, is rarely (never?) a fundamental aspect of reality the way concepts, daos, information, etc works. It's more like a "mechanism" of a verse ig.

Therefore, without any further context of explanation, a "plot manipulation" would be "stronger/impossible to resist" for someone who merely resist "Fate Manipulation". Obviously, if there are all sorts of feats or if the "Fate" itself is something special, it could work, but then we're working with "what if" at that point.

The problem is that, I don't think the wiki would allow that, even if Fate itself is as fundamental as Concepts, if not even more in a verse. Although this is purely just our opinions, I do still want to dabble on it. Who knows, maybe a revision for Plot may appear in the future based on this discussion.

By that logic, couldn't you also make the argument for Information Type 2? Which one would be legitimate then? Personally, names are just that, names, so unless it's 100% proven that "information or narrative/plot" exist/underlines the verse, I think staying with Fate is the best move here. Also, sure, you can send feat if you wish, although again, I may have a completely different opinion than what the standards here says.

That was my thoughts as well, but it got changed after seeing some verses get Plot manip even if narratives do not underline the series, I think. Castlevania fans are probably gonna kill me with how many times I mention them, but they do come to mind. Though at that point, wouldn't it be a bit weird that a character that resists either, wouldn't be able to resist the other, if they are both fundamental on the same level, and their effects are similar?

If you can prove than "Fate" (in your verse) works a certain way and that "Plot" (of another verse) works the same way, in a versus match, both aspect could be equalized, if that can put your mind at ease. Obviously both the thing "aren't the same thing" but "since they work 99,9% the same way, we can see them as similar things".

That's the thing though, don't they majority of the time work the same way (If fate is proven to be fundamental, obviously). Say, Fate controls all of reality, and dictates what will happen, or has happened, and can just change reality however they want. If someone with Fate Manip writes that someone will die, that certain someone will die just like that, even without an actual cause like heart attack or something. Plot, similarly, controls all of reality and dictates what will happen like a story.

Do tell me if I'm correct though, since I'm honestly not sure.

Personally, even with 1-A, I don't think that seeing someone "write the lower world reality through a book" as enough for Plot, could just be RW again. (And well, technically speaking Plot is just RW with a skin, too.)

Shit, you might be onto something. Alot of abilities are technically RW with just a different skin ngl. Though I'd assume for you, for someone to get Plot Manip, they have to actively manipulate the very narrative of the world? If so, if a character manipulates the fate of the world (Assuming fundamental as concepts, if not more), and another character manipulates the narrative of the world (also assuming fundamental as concepts, if not more), if their effects are similar, I'd assume you'd say that any character that resists either, should be able to resist the other? If so, I don't assume the wiki is similar?

 

[Rikimarox2]

Oh right, Imma double post but I don't want the previous post to be bible-sized, so I'll post the feats here;

Spoiler

'The entire Chaos Universe is like a game, and cultivation is a way to level up. Based on the player's location, they can choose different classes: Emperor, Dao, and Immortal. In some locations, the Emperor Class is not available.'

Wang Wei felt his understanding of fate–especially Order-Disorder Laws–increase at an alarming rate.

'In this game, there are technically twelve levels. There are many rules and regulations reinforced by Game Masters (Heavenly Dao). Once a player does something outside the game's cognition or becomes too broken, the Game Master will place limitations on them.

'At the same time, the higher a player's level, the more rules they can learn and break. Nevertheless, the highest level player does not come close to the Ultimate Game Master (Grand Dao).'

Wang Wei's eyes became more brilliant.

'Not everyone in the game can be a player. Some people have to be NPCs. And when an NPC becomes a player, those are the people who give birth to their Fate Star. Meanwhile, Fateless are people born with some small bugs. Hum, maybe there is a better analogy for them.'

Wang Wei placed a pinned on the Fateless analogy before continuing with his train of thought.

'After level 12, there is no way to move forward. No, some players have gone beyond that level. And in that realm, they seem to be able to compete with the Ultimate Game Master.'

Wang Wei remembered when Honjun protected him from Grand Dao and allowed him to break one of the game's rules: a taboo.

'From level 12 to 13, there is no path. Players have to create their own method. And upon success, the players will acquire some of the powers of Game Masters to bend the rules of the game or even establish them themselves.'

The man gave the feeling that he was free and unfettered, that he was not bound by worldly tether, that his actions were bound solely by his desires: in other words, he could do whatever he pleased whenever he wanted.

He was transcendent. He was detached.

And then there were his eyes.

In his eyes, you could see the fate of all living beings and things: their birth, growth, and destined destruction. It was a beautiful yet horrified cycle.

When seeing those eyes, people would immediately ask themselves: Does fate really exist? Is our life from birth to death already set like a written story? If so, who is the author? And how can we escape such a shackle?

 

[SweetDao]

Some verses got plot manip for that iirc (Castlevania comes to mind), so idk.

I don't have the context for Castlevania, but if it's just "He can control the story of the world", it could even be a way of saying "he controls the world" so idk.

The problem is that, I don't think the wiki would allow that, even if Fate itself is as fundamental as Concepts, if not even more in a verse. Although this is purely just our opinions, I do still want to dabble on it. Who knows, maybe a revision for Plot may appear in the future based on this discussion.

Take it like this. Assume a verse with multiple fundamental aspects. CM1, Info type 2, plot, ... If, in-verse, it's explained that CM1<Info<Plot<Fate, then it means the Fate of the verse is "more fundamental" than the rest, which, in crossverse, would mean it's "superior" to these fundamental aspects. One could say that "having more fundamental aspects is actually detrimental, since it means the lesser ones are in fact less fundamental than the last one and another verse only having one aspect would in fact be equal to the first one" and I would share that point of view personally.

Anyway, what I mean is that it's a matter of seeing what it encompasses and how it can (could) interact with other aspects. Generally speaking, Plot tend to encompass CM and such, hence why it's so strong.

That was my thoughts as well, but it got changed after seeing some verses get Plot manip even if narratives do not underline the series, I think. Castlevania fans are probably gonna kill me with how many times I mention them, but they do come to mind.

It's personally my line of thinking after I saw the horrible plot manipulation in Instant Death just because people compare their power as "stories" or because some guy manipulated Fate by writing in a book.

That's the thing though, don't they majority of the time work the same way (If fate is proven to be fundamental, obviously)

Manipulating concepts changes the reality.
Manipulating laws changes the reality.
Manipulating information changes reality.
Manipulating plot changes the reality.
Manipulating Essences changes the reality.
Manipulating Daos changes the reality.

All of them ultimately do the same, yeah. Maybe the way it's done changes or the "skin" on how the power is used, but ultimately, all of the above power (and even more) are just manipulating reality. More precisely, the inner-layer (fundamental one) rather than the outer one. I mean, if you really really wanna be into some sort of "brain fuckery" you could say that every ability in existence is a form of reality warping only affecting the outer layer of reality (creating flames out of nothing, for example) with the most advanced abilities (manipulating causality, fate, concepts) being more fundamentals.

Say, Fate controls all of reality, and dictates what will happen, or has happened, and can just change reality however they want. If someone with Fate Manip writes that someone will die, that certain someone will die just like that, even without an actual cause like heart attack or something. Plot, similarly, controls all of reality and dictates what will happen like a story.

Do tell me if I'm correct though, since I'm honestly not sure.

I personally agree with you, yeah. Likewise, I think Plot and Fate (in your example) are ultimately two different branches of abilities that does the very same thing. Only the "way" differs. But again, that works with practically everything else as mentioned above.

Alot of abiltiies are techinaclly RW with just a different skin ngl. Though I'd assume for you, for someone to get Plot Manip, they have to actively manipulate the very narrative of the world?

The verse would need to explain that reality is just a narrative/descriptions and such, yeah.

If so, if a character manipulates the fate of the world (Assuming fundamental as concepts, if not more), and another character manipulates the narrative of the world (also assuming fundamental as concepts, if not more), if their effects are similar, I'd assume you'd say that any character that resists either, should be able to resist the other?

I would say that, ultimately, both characters could attack and counter each other but not "directly impact" how one or the other use their abilities. It's like one character doing a sun beam through magic and another doing a sun beam through technology. Ultimately, they both can resist the "sun beam" even if the source is different.

 

[SweetDao]

Oh right, Imma double post but I don't want the previous post to be bible-sized, so I'll post the feats here;

Idk if it's me, but the scans stop mid-sentence.

Is the MC a reincarnated guy?

If the answer is yes, then I wouldn't take it as "Plot being a thing", but even if the answer is no, I feel like right now it's not enough.

 

[Rikimarox2]

Alrighty, thanks for the input! It has been a bit eye-opening, though I might still try to see if it works, since the standards are a bit iffy rn, but honestly I don't have much hope in it. Even then, however, unforunately the wiki doesn't allow resistance iirc, even if the effects are the same.

Idk if it's me, but the scans stop mid-sentence.

Ah ye, the wiki does that sometimes, here are the scans without quotes (since that function is the cause of it);

Spoiler

'The entire Chaos Universe is like a game, and cultivation is a way to level up.

Based on the player's location, they can choose different classes: Emperor, Dao, and Immortal. In some locations, the Emperor Class is not available.

'Wang Wei felt his understanding of fate–especially Order-Disorder Laws–increase at an alarming rate.

'In this game, there are technically twelve levels. There are many rules and regulations reinforced by Game Masters (Heavenly Dao). Once a player does something outside the game's cognition or becomes too broken, the Game Master will place limitations on them.

'At the same time, the higher a player's level, the more rules they can learn and break. Nevertheless, the highest level player does not come close to the Ultimate Game Master (Grand Dao).

'Wang Wei's eyes became more brilliant.'

Not everyone in the game can be a player. Some people have to be NPCs. And when an NPC becomes a player, those are the people who give birth to their Fate Star. Meanwhile, Fateless are people born with some small bugs. Hum, maybe there is a better analogy for them.

'Wang Wei placed a pinned on the Fateless analogy before continuing with his train of thought.

'After level 12, there is no way to move forward. No, some players have gone beyond that level. And in that realm, they seem to be able to compete with the Ultimate Game Master.

'Wang Wei remembered when Honjun protected him from Grand Dao and allowed him to break one of the game's rules: a taboo.'From level 12 to 13, there is no path. Players have to create their own method. And upon success, the players will acquire some of the powers of Game Masters to bend the rules of the game or even establish them themselves.'

--2nd Scan--
The man gave the feeling that he was free and unfettered, that he was not bound by worldly tether, that his actions were bound solely by his desires: in other words, he could do whatever he pleased whenever he wanted.

He was transcendent. He was detached.

And then there were his eyes.

In his eyes, you could see the fate of all living beings and things: their birth, growth, and destined destruction. It was a beautiful yet horrified cycle.

When seeing those eyes, people would immediately ask themselves: Does fate really exist? Is our life from birth to death already set like a written story? If so, who is the author? And how can we escape such a shackle?

I don't have the context for Castlevania, but if it's just "He can control the story of the world", it could even be a way of saying "he controls the world" so idk.

Ah no, I don't think it's like that (at least based on what I understood). Here's the feat of it;
Plot Manipulation and Text Manipulation (Creatures of Chaos can utilize the power of chaos to write cruel endings for their targets into Reality and rewrite the narrative of the worlds they reside in through the chaos in their soul which are one and the same as the real world with the results of those changes overturning events in the story it's tied to and overflowing into reality)

Some of the scans do not really seem to be saying what the text is saying, but I'm probably missing context on it.

 

[SweetDao]

Ah ye, the wiki does that sometimes, here are the scans without quotes (since that function is the cause of it);

Yeah no, don't see much plot personally. More like an analogy at best.

 

[Rikimarox2]

Thought so. Regardless, thanks for the input!

 

[Orioreeem]

Bump

 

[Phsccarvalho]

Pretty much the title. Yes, I'm trying to wank to see if one of the characters I'm indexing qualifies.

So, I've read the Plot Manipulation page, and the way one qualifies for it is usually if the verse itself mentions Narratives, or Plot/Story. Though, there are other characters like Castlevania characters who got it due to the effects of a book altering reality itself, and since whatever is written just comes true I think.

So, what are the ways that one can qualify for this without direct statements of altering the plot/narrative, and is there any chance that stuff like Fate can be equated to plot?

For example, if Fate in a verse was stated to be a "story", and with mentions of "Author", I don't assume that is enough for it to be Plot Manip? If so, then what is exactly the difference between Fate and Plot Manip, when their effects are kinda similar, with different causes? I know it sounds pretty silly for some people, but I'd like any input on this.

Yes I'm desperate, I wanna see how far Wank Wei can get.

The most common form is when it is spoken, but not spoken?

I'll use a simple example of a verse that I support, this.

Very simple, a cartoon scene and then the animator goes and reanimates the cartoon. Simple plot hax and no lines.

Usually this type of feat has to have some metafictional context or something close to it. For example, in the case of Castlevania, those books, the grimoires, are literally the structure of the reality of the beings in the grimoire. And these beings can rewrite the content of their own world (which is a book that tells a story) through their powers.

The context is very important, because we had cases similar to Castlevania like Dragon Ball Heroes [Time Scrolls] and MGK that were rejected for plot hax.

I recommend you take a look at these CRTs to understand.

And the example you gave, in my opinion from what I see in the more mainstream CRTs (that is, the ones that are more popular) would not be enough. But of course you may end up finding smaller or less popular verses having this anyway.