High-End Nomu's - scaling - My Hero Academia

[Onelixy]

I'm going to be as concise as possible. Should be an easy read and even easier to follow. Discussing this in the general MHA thread was quite a mess and not productive.

When we are introduced to the different Nomu-tiers, they state that the High-Ends possess stats above the upper tiers. The upper tiers are the black Nomu without any intellect, personality, and so on. This includes the U.S.J Nomu and the other black Nomu aside from the Near to High-End Nomu we've seen throughout the series. It should be noted that this is explaining the "baseline" of each tier, not individual Nomu.

Moreover, What is "stats" in My Hero Academia?
Horikoshi has a clear idea of what stats is. It's divided into a few categories and is portrayed in the databooks, with technique, power, speed, wits, and one additional one depending on the character in question. Often comedic, sometimes useful. For example:

Stats is in general going to depend from Nomu to Nomu, as there's no clear rule.

But one thing is certain. High-end Nomus can think, they can strategize, have personalities, and have more quirks than the other tiers, meaning they already have a stat advantage in wits and technique right off the bat, while additional quirks would be accounted for in power, not just strength. Meaning there's no real evidence that every High-End Nomu would possess something specific, like more physical strength or durability to shock than let's say, the USJ Nomu. Who to our knowledge only has regeneration, strength to match All Might, and shock absorption. As the USJ Nomu was designed with a single target in mind.

To further emphasize this point. The USJ would only need physical capabilities with shock absorption as stats to fight All Might. Meaning speed, and power is all he has. We see feat-wise that All Might is moving faster than anyone there can see, including Shigaraki, yet the USJ can keep up with him in all departments until All Might went beyond his full power (plus ultra). According to Horikoshi's databooks, All Might is overall vastly superior to someone like Hood, and even more so over Mirko, who was able to damage and keep up with different High-End Nomu before they stabilized. It should be noted that while the Databooks can miss the mark, it's Horikoshi's impression of the characters.

When Shigaraki is awoken after getting his body remodeled, he's Garaki's perfect creation, yet doesn't have physical strength on par with All Might according to Garaki. Both according to Horikoshi (Databook) and Garaki, All Might is physically superior to all the High-End we've been introduced to, to Mirko who was able to damage some specific High-Ends (they will vary), and Shigaraki. This is further supported by Endeavor, Aizawa, and Mirko's reactions to Shigaraki and the different Nomu. Establishing that Shigaraki is above every Nomu, yet inferior to All Might, and Deku replicating All Might.

My conclusion is that the current scaling chain makes some incorrect assumptions about what stats mean and that the "baseline" (at least as strong as x) within a tier of Nomu indicates anything about specific Nomu within that tier.
Two Nomu can have vastly different strength and durability, yet have the same power (stat) due to the different quirks and techniques they possess. Additionally, all High-End Nomu have an immediate stat advantage in wits and technique over the other tiers and a higher baseline. Meaning an upper-tier designed only for strength could be far stronger than a high-end designed for ranged fighting.

Robot, a high-end ranged fighting Nomu is not going to need physical strength or durability like the U.S.J had, which Mirko both commented on and demonstrated to us. As even though Robot would have higher strength than the "baseline" of upper-tiers (ten average people), he's not oriented around close combat or physical prowess. Different Nomu have different areas in which they are specialized and designed around. This is quite established throughout the series. Therefore, I believe these are two major flaws with the current scaling chain which the story and narrative seem to reinforce, and I believe it should be acknowledged and investigated further.

That's my two cents, I hope that made sense. Don't worry, I've done this before and am used to the site's hesitancy regarding long-established ideas and concepts.

 

[Onelixy]

Not sure who to tag, so I'll link the thread in the general discussion for MHA.

@Damage3245
@TheRustyOne

 

[Ped2018]

Not sure who to tag, so I'll link the thread in the general discussion for MHA.

@Damage3245
@TheRustyOne

Non-staff users can't tag other users

 

[Onelixy]

Non-staff users can't tag other users

Damn it, I always forget. Thanks for the head's up though.

 

[Damage3245]

I'll pay attention to how this thread goes.

 

[Maitreya12]

One thing I think you should clarify is that if these revisions are going to lead to changes on the profiles for characters tiers or stats, I recommend laying out most of the characters that would be affected by this change and how it would affect their tier or revise their scaling like in the case with Mirko.

 

[Onelixy]

One thing I think you should clarify is that if these revisions are going to lead to changes on the profiles for characters tiers or stats, I recommend laying out most of the characters that would be affected by this change and how it would affect their tier or revise their scaling like in the case with Mirko.

Thanks! And that's probably true. But from my short experience in the general thread, I think I want to see if there's any positive feedback on this or if it makes sense. Seemed like people were pretty decisively against it. Someone even suggested I spat in Horikoshi's face by suggesting All Might was stronger than Mirko. I'll wait a bit, and work on a detailed layout of the profiles if everything pans out.

 

[Therefir]

I wouldn't use those stats as the crux of your argument, as they not only put Endeavor on the level of All Might and All For One (S+), but they made him faster than Hood, even though Endeavor admitted that Hood was faster and stronger than him, and he needed Hawks' feathers to keep up with him.

 

[Onelixy]

I wouldn't use those stats as the crux of your argument, as they not only put Endeavor on the level of All Might and All For One (S+), but they made him faster than Hood, even though Endeavor admitted that Hood was faster and stronger than him, and he needed Hawks' feathers to keep up with him.

Endeavor has demonstrated that he's capable of both keeping up with Shigaraki and AFO in combat and can take out top tiers with prominence burn. Therefore I don't think it's contradictory. Albeit Hood does fly faster than Endeavor with his jet quirk.

Now, even if we disregard the specific stats on the specific characters, it's really what stats can mean which is the crux of the argument, paired with the plot and Hori's intent.

 

[Therefir]

Hood dodged a surprise attack from Endeavor and even called him slow, and Endeavor made his statement after Hood dodged his Hell Spider and outpaced him.

Not exactly sure what are you trying to argue here, implying that Endeavor somehow have greater combat speed than Hood when that's just not the case.

 

[Onelixy]

Hood dodged a surprise attack from Endeavor and even called him slow, and Endeavor made his statement after Hood dodged his Hell Spider and outpaced him.

Not exactly sure what are you trying to argue here, implying that Endeavor somehow have greater combat speed than Hood when that's just not the case.

I'm not suggesting that Endeavor was faster than Hood, but that going from A to an A+ doesn't seem like a contradiction.
Hood was faster, especially in movement speed while flying, but Endeavor had several instances of keeping up in combat. He even noticed and acted before Hawks when Hood arrived.

The point is their stats, what stats can mean, and their tiers within those stats. Some of the profiles are definitely slightly off at times, I won't deny that, but we don't know everything Horikoshi accounts for. If he includes how fast someone is to act, react, move, think, attack, and so on will probably forever be a mystery, but this is his impression of the characters.

But most importantly "higher stats" does not mean "higher everything". Strength is only one of numerous aspects that would fall under power, like how movement speed could be one of many aspect under speed. This is reinforced by Garaki's statements, Endeavor statements and his idea of All Might, Mirko's reaction to Shigaraki after fighting the HEN's, Aizawa's flashback, Star and Stripe's comment about her strength compared to All Might, Deku replicating All Might with 100%, and the databooks.

 

[TimmyTurnero]

following

 

[DaReaperMan]

I'll watch!

 

[Eseseso]

Interesting!

 

[Onelixy]

Been a bit busy. But I'm back for more discussions and input
Bumping.

 

[Nullflowerblush]

The U.S.J. Nomu is literally shown on-panel grouped up with the Hosu Nomu and the Chainsaw Nomu.

If the U.S.J. Nomu was an outlier, why would the dialogue reference him?

If the U.S.J. Nomu truly was a Nomu among Nomu and even more powerful than the High-End, he would not have been pictured in the page directly comparing the High-End to the Upper-Tier and explicitly stating that the former are more powerful than the latter.

However, this is crucial. What is "stats" in My Hero Academia?
Horikoshi has a clear idea of what stats is. It's divided into a few categories and is portrayed in the databooks

Why the hell would Dr. Garaki be referring to out-of-universe Ultra Analysis Guide "stats"?

When Shigaraki is awoken after getting his body remodeled, he's Garaki's perfect creation, yet doesn't have physical strength on par with All Might according to Garaki.

Not completed yet.

 

[Nullflowerblush]

"そしてその上に位置する最上位上位以上の能力に加え"
The word used is 能力, "nōryoku", or "abilities", a combination of the kanji for "skill" and "power".

 

[TimmyTurnero]

Anyways,

However, this is crucial. What is "stats" in My Hero Academia?
Horikoshi has a clear idea of what stats is. It's divided into a few categories and is portrayed in the databooks, with technique, power, speed, wits, and one additional one depending on the character in question. Often comedic, sometimes useful. For example:

And this is where the first problem comes from.
You’re linking a databook, which even you agree isn’t exactly serious, to create some idea of what these “stats” could be referring to.
Associating these “stats” to the statement made just doesn’t work as it’s clear cut what these states are referring to.
Your argument revolves around “stats can be referring to technique and wits” without actually explaining how or why we should view these stats as a standpoint for what the doctor is relaying.
Let’s look at the context.

• “THEY'RE DIVIDED INTO LOWER, MIDDLE AND UPPER TIERS DEPENDING ON HOW MANY QUIRKS THEY HAVE AND THEIR PHYSICAL ENHANCEMENTS.

The narrator (author) explains how he builds this hierarchy of Nomus, ranking them in 3 several groups. That being the Lower, Middle and Upper tier.
He ranks these based on how many quirks they possess and their physical enhancements.
Technique, “wits” is a non factor, totally unrelated to how these Nomus are ranked among each other, as their rankings are mostly ranked on their base physical enhancements.
Not how strong they are with quirks, i.e. quirks that boost their strength, but how strong their base strength is.

• “Those in the Upper tier are at least as strong as ten average people combined.”

The narrator (the author) reinforces this idea by giving a direct comparison of strength of those in the upper tier, stating that even the weakest of Nomus in this category are at least as strong as 10 people. Literally telling us that he’s basing these tiers on the base strength of the Nomu and not just their quirks. He has a set idea of how strong they need to be to reach each tiers, which follows up with his next statement.

• “Standing above all of them are the High End Nomu, possessing stats beyond those of the Upper-Tier Nomu”

As stated, the HEN stand directly above the other Nomu’s. This alone mean their physical capabilities are above “ALL OF THEM”, and this is backed up by them possessing “stats” beyond those of the Upper-Tier, which is confirmed to be ranked by strength. The author has stated that these groups are ranked by number of quirks and base strength. Them having “stat((s)plural” means they possess more quirks and base strength than ALL THE NOMU, as these are the stats that determine their rank.
If you’re gonna assert that their stats are based upon and out of verse guidebook then provide the evidence for such, as the series itself disagrees with that notion. The burden of proof is on you.

But one thing is certain. High-end Nomus can think, they can strategize, have personalities, and have more quirks than the other tiers, meaning they already have a stat advantage in wits and technique right off the bat, while additional quirks would be accounted for in power, not just strength. Meaning there's no real evidence that every High-End Nomu would possess something specific, like more physical strength or durability to shock than let's say, the USJ Nomu.

But this is just your (misinterpreted) interpretation of the tiering system. You’d have to actually prove in series that this is how it’s viewed as your own argument doesn’t match what’s depicted in the narrative.

According to Horikoshi's databooks, All Might is overall vastly superior to someone like Hood, and even more so over Mirko, who was able to damage and keep up with different High-End Nomu before they stabilized.

These stats are so terribly inconsistent that this argument just doesn’t work, Endeavor literally states Hood is faster than him yet the databooks has Endeavor faster. They’re not accurate.

When Shigaraki is awoken after getting his body remodeled, he's Garaki's perfect creation, yet doesn't have physical strength on par with All Might according to Garaki.

Clearly referring to Prime All Might, as complete Shigaraki is All Might level (prime).
Shigaraki is stated by Endeavor to be on par with with All Might, someone who has been studying and trying to surpass him all his life. Literally going insane and forcing his wife to create some idealistic symbol of his grudge (Dabi) just out of how much power All Might have. I doubt he’s just lying for any reason he has. Aizawa, who knows first hand how strong the USJ Nomu is compares his strength to that Nomu. i don’t see the point you’re trying to make. Occam’s razor would depict that the doctors statement is referring to Prime All Might.

Anyways, this is my rebuttal.

 

[TimmyTurnero]

"そしてその上に位置する最上位上位以上の能力に加え"
The word used is 能力, "nōryoku", or "abilities", a combination of the kanji for "skill" and "power".

Where did you find the raws at?

 

[Nierre]

interesting

 

[Nullflowerblush]

Where did you find the raws at?

I used Manga//Reader.

 

[Onelixy]

The U.S.J. Nomu is literally shown on-panel grouped up with the Hosu Nomu and the Chainsaw Nomu.

If the U.S.J. Nomu was an outlier, why would the dialogue reference him?

If the U.S.J. Nomu truly was a Nomu among Nomu and even more powerful than the High-End, he would not have been pictured in the page directly comparing the High-End to the Upper-Tier and explicitly stating that the former are more powerful than the latter.

I explicitly stated that the U.S.J is among the upper tiers. I have not contended this.

The point is that there are several elements falling under a stat. Strength is only one specific thing or trait that "power" would account for.
For example, there's little to no reason for a ranged fighting a Nomu like Robot to have exceptional physical strength, durability, or speed (which was evident with Mirko's statement and then taking him out with a single move). But Robot could still have several powerful quirks falling under power, paired with wits and technique, meaning he has stats above the other tiers.

When it's stated that the "high-end" possess higher stats, that account for technique, wits, and more quirks than the lower tiers, that would fall under "power". There's no evidence or reason that that means each High End has better specific traits than all other Nomu, like higher strength and durability to shock than the U.S.J, who was compared to and matched All Might, who was superior to Shigaraki and Star and Stripe based on statements, reinforced by Horikoshi in the databooks. This makes sense, as the U.S.J only has two quirks, no personality, wits, or technique. He's just a mindless beast with physical strength, speed, shock absorption, and regeneration to match All Might. But even BoS Shoto could severely harm him, and he's purely limited to physical attacks. His overall "stats" would be lower than HEN's.

Why the hell would Dr. Garaki be referring to out-of-universe Ultra Analysis Guide "stats"?

Onelixy said:
When Shigaraki is awoken after getting his body remodeled, he's Garaki's perfect creation, yet doesn't have physical strength on par with All Might according to Garaki.

Not completed yet.

Garaki explicitly stated that he couldn't make Shigaraki have physical strength on par with All Might. If he attempted that, it would overburden his brain. This sentence has nothing to do with Shigaraki not being complete.

 

[Onelixy]

And this is where the first problem comes from.
You’re linking a databook, which even you agree isn’t exactly serious, to create some idea of what these “stats” could be referring to.
Associating these “stats” to the statement made just doesn’t work as it’s clear cut what these states are referring to.
Your argument revolves around “stats can be referring to technique and wits” without actually explaining how or why we should view these stats as a standpoint for what the doctor is relaying.

I wouldn't say it's not serious but acknowledge there seem to be slight flaws. However, we don't know what Horikoshi accounts for in each stat when he wrote their scores, but it does give us insight into his impression of the characters in his own series.
My arguments revolve around what Horikoshi thinks of when he writes "stats", or "power", the specific stats he has in mind for the characters, and then paired with the statements from numerous characters, like Endeavor, Aizawa, Garaki, S&S, Deku, and so on.

• “THEY'RE DIVIDED INTO LOWER, MIDDLE AND UPPER TIERS DEPENDING ON HOW MANY QUIRKS THEY HAVE AND THEIR PHYSICAL ENHANCEMENTS.

The narrator (author) explains how he builds this hierarchy of Nomus, ranking them in 3 several groups. That being the Lower, Middle and Upper tier.
He ranks these based on how many quirks they possess and their physical enhancements.
Technique, “wits” is a non factor, totally unrelated to how these Nomus are ranked among each other, as their rankings are mostly ranked on their base physical enhancements.
Not how strong they are with quirks, i.e. quirks that boost their strength, but how strong their base strength is.

A body requires further physical enhancements to wield more, or more powerful quirks too. But a Nomu that only has quirks and enhancements related to a specific trait, like raw physical strength wouldn't necessarily be physically weaker than a Nomu in a higher tier oriented around something completely different like ranged quirks. Additionally, the statements regarding the High-End are that they possess stats beyond the rest. Being curious as to what Horikoshi thinks of when he says stats is essential. But I agree that on average, or rather, the "baseline" of strength is higher within each tier. That seems accurate.

• “Those in the Upper tier are at least as strong as ten average people combined.”

The narrator (the author) reinforces this idea by giving a direct comparison of strength of those in the upper tier, stating that even the weakest of Nomus in this category are at least as strong as 10 people. Literally telling us that he’s basing these tiers on the base strength of the Nomu and not just their quirks. He has a set idea of how strong they need to be to reach each tiers, which follows up with his next statement.

You misunderstand. I don't disagree that the upper tiers start at a baseline of strength. The point is that it doesn't mean a Nomu oriented around physical strength alone in a tier below can't be above a different Nomu in a tier above in that specific trait. On the contrary. It's entirely possible that the U.S.J Nomu is physically the strongest Nomu ever created, taking everything provided in the entire series into consideration. There's no contradiction to this, in fact, it's reinforced by their feats and statements.

• “Standing above all of them are the High End Nomu, possessing stats beyond those of the Upper-Tier Nomu”

As stated, the HEN stand directly above the other Nomu’s. This alone mean their physical capabilities are above “ALL OF THEM”, and this is backed up by them possessing “stats” beyond those of the Upper-Tier, which is confirmed to be ranked by strength. The author has stated that these groups are ranked by number of quirks and base strength. Them having “stat((s)plural” means they possess more quirks and base strength than ALL THE NOMU, as these are the stats that determine their rank.
If you’re gonna assert that their stats are based upon and out of verse guidebook then provide the evidence for such, as the series itself disagrees with that notion. The burden of proof is on you.

It does not mean they have physical abilities above all upper-tiers. It explicitly means they have further enhancements on average with a higher baseline, with procedures to their bodies for them to wield more quirks while retaining their personality and be thinking Nomu, resulting in higher overall stats. But as explained above, there's no reason or evidence that an upper-tier like the U.S.J that's oriented solely around physical strength would have lower physical strength than every High-End. Which is reinforced by a ton of statements, narratives, and Horikoshi himself.

But this is just your (misinterpreted) interpretation of the tiering system. You’d have to actually prove in series that this is how it’s viewed as your own argument doesn’t match what’s depicted in the narrative.

I've provided what I think is reasonable for Horikoshi to refer to as stats and power, I've given an explanation regarding how Nomu's can be oriented around specific strengths and traits, I've shown Horikoshi's idea of the different characters in question, and I've provided a plethora of statements ranging from Endeavor's comparison of Shigaraki to non-prime All Might, how Shigaraki is Garaki's perfection, a perfect Nomu, yet couldn't be remodeled to match All Might, as it would've overburdened his brain, Star&Stripe matching and beating Shigaraki in a physical clash, yet stating she's inferior to All Might, and Deku replicating All Might with 100% of his power.

I believe this a better-substantiated interpretation than suggesting every High-End, regardless of their goal, role, or design, is physically stronger or more durable to blunt force than every upper-tier, even ones solely oriented around physical strength and durability to blunt force. That's why I'm here.

These stats are so terribly inconsistent that this argument just doesn’t work, Endeavor literally states Hood is faster than him yet the databooks has Endeavor faster. They’re not accurate.

This was sort of addressed at the top. But summed up, we don't know what Horikoshi considers for the specific stat or how he rates them. But it does show his intent or his idea of the characters.

Clearly referring to Prime All Might, as complete Shigaraki is All Might level (prime).
Shigaraki is stated by Endeavor to be on par with with All Might, someone who has been studying and trying to surpass him all his life. Literally going insane and forcing his wife to create some idealistic symbol of his grudge (Dabi) just out of how much power All Might have. I doubt he’s just lying for any reason he has. Aizawa, who knows first hand how strong the USJ Nomu is compares his strength to that Nomu. i don’t see the point you’re trying to make. Occam’s razor would depict that the doctors statement is referring to Prime All Might.

This seems a bit contradicting storywise to me. In the same panel where Garaki makes his statement, Endeavor is picturing a non-prime All Might in his head. And Aizawa the U.S.J Nomu, and Garaki made that Nomu to match All Might's strength at the time. They shouldn't be referring to prime-All Might.

Apologies for the typos. I'm at work and don't have Grammarly. I'll give it a re-read and fix it in some hours.

 

[TimmyTurnero]

I wouldn't say it's not serious but acknowledge there seem to be slight flaws. However, we don't know what Horikoshi accounts for in each stat when he wrote their scores, but it does give us insight into his impression of the characters in his own series.
My arguments revolve around what Horikoshi thinks of when he writes "stats", or "power", the specific stats he has in mind for the characters, and then paired with the statements from numerous characters, like Endeavor, Aizawa, Garaki, S&S, Deku, and so on.

It doesn’t give of us “insight” of how he scale characters in series, it’s a databook giving information on these characters, if he feels this is a simplistic way to go about it, then so be it, but basing an entire argument off of this interpretation will not work unless you provide any form of evidence stating so. In the actual series where is it depicted that he scale his characters based on this guidebook? Or any form of information based upon in series characters is based on this databook? You have to provide reasoning for this or else your entire structure just collapse

A body requires further physical enhancements to wield more, or more powerful quirks too. But a Nomu that only has quirks and enhancements related to a specific trait, like raw physical strength wouldn't necessarily be physically weaker than a Nomu in a higher tier oriented around something completely different like ranged quirks.

What the hell are you talking about? Like did you miss the entire point of the argument?
They separated the amount of quirks they have from their base strength. While yes, enhancements increase the amount of quirks they can wield, this hierarchy is based purely on their base capabilities.

“But a Nomu that only has quirks and enhancements related to a specific trait, like raw physical strength wouldn't necessarily be physically weaker than a Nomu in a higher tier oriented around something completely different like ranged quirks.”
This is just bad interpretation, whether they can surpass a higher tier with a shit ton of quirks is a non factor, point being made is H>M>L based on BASE strength. HEN>> any other Nomu physically, which includes the USJ Nomu whose BASE strength is All Might level

Additionally, the statements regarding the High-End are that they possess stats beyond the rest. Being curious as to what Horikoshi thinks of when he says stats is essential.

• “THEY'RE DIVIDED INTO LOWER, MIDDLE AND UPPER TIERS DEPENDING ON HOW MANY QUIRKS THEY HAVE AND THEIR PHYSICAL ENHANCEMENTS.

The narrator (author) explains how he builds this hierarchy of Nomus, ranking them in 3 several groups. That being the Lower, Middle and Upper tier.
He ranks these based on how many quirks they possess and their physical enhancements.
Technique, “wits” is a non factor, totally unrelated to how these Nomus are ranked among each other, as their rankings are mostly ranked on their base physical enhancements.
Not how strong they are with quirks, i.e. quirks that boost their strength, but how strong their base strength is.

Did you like ignore this entire section?
The stats and tiering system that he uses are already placed out for us, amount of quirks base strength is how they’re ranked among each other. Nothing else, that’s literally it. Anything else requires evidence or else it’s a baseless claim. The burden of proof is on you.
If the tiers are based on base strength, and the HEN are stated to STAND ABOVE ALL of the other Nomu, then their base strength is above ALL.

But I agree that on average, or rather, the "baseline" of strength is higher within each tier. That seems accurate.

What are you implying?

You misunderstand.

I don't disagree that the upper tiers start at a baseline of strength. The point is that it doesn't mean a Nomu oriented around physical strength alone in a tier below can't be above a different Nomu in a tier above in that specific trait.

If you want to argue that with quirks they can surpass higher tiers then cool, wonderful. But that isn’t what this is about, I fail to see how this is relevant at all. The tiering isn’t made based on how strong they are with quirks, it’s made by how strong their base strength is so I see no relevancy in your argument here. The debate is whether the HEN surpass the USJ Nomu and this argument doesn’t support your point much, if at all.

On the contrary. It's entirely possible that the U.S.J Nomu is physically the strongest Nomu ever created, taking everything provided in the entire series into consideration. There's no contradiction to this, in fact, it's reinforced by their feats and statements.

Prove that’s the case then. It’s never stated, depicted or implied. It’s contradicted by the fact that the HEN are straight stated superior to it, and ranking higher on a tierlist based solely on base strength and quirk number, with strength being a major factor. The series does not heavily depict the USJ Nomu as superior to the HEN, he literally appeared in the first 10 chapters and never showed up or have been mentioned again. He’s irrelevant. The only thing taken into account is your unbased interpretation

It does not mean they have physical abilities above all upper-tiers. It explicitly means they have further enhancements on average with a higher baseline, with procedures to their bodies for them to wield more quirks while retaining their personality and be thinking Nomu, resulting in higher overall stats.

That’s how you want to interpret it, prove that. The scan literally says THEY STAND ABOVE ALL. There’s no other way to interpret it. “Well it means they stand above some” no buddy, they stand above all. If the tiering is literally based on strength and amount of quirks and the HEN are stated to straight up be superior to all of the Nomu with stats (quirks and base strength) being beyond ANY PREVIOUS NOMU, then they are clear cut stronger than any Nomu. The burden of proof is on you to prove your interpretation is more accurate, as of now the narrative itself disagrees with you.

But as explained above, there's no reason or evidence that an upper-tier like the U.S.J that's oriented solely around physical strength would have lower physical strength than every High-End.

Which is reinforced by a ton of statements, narratives, and Horikoshi himself.

When? Where? How? When the hell is there a statement suggesting the HEN are weaker than the USJ Nomu? Where are the narrative implications suggesting the USJ Nomu is stronger than the HEN? And when does Horikoshi state they’re stronger?
It’s crazy you claim it’s reinforced by “tons of statements” but you have yet to provide one.

I've provided what I think is reasonable for Horikoshi to refer to as stats and power,

Horikoshi literally refers to these stats as quirk number and base power and literally ranks his hierarchy based on this. Your opinion is a non factor.

I've given an explanation regarding how Nomu's can be oriented around specific strengths and traits,

Which literally makes no sense and contradicts anything the author has laid out for us. THE RANKINGS ARE ORDED BY STRENGTH AND QUIRK NUMBERS, BASE STRENGTH BEING A LEADER FACTOR FOR ALL OF THIS. ANY OTHER INTERPRETATION IS NOTHING BUT AN INTERPRETATION.

I've shown Horikoshi's idea of the different characters in question,

Which is shown contradicting itself many times over, being inconsistent and unreliable when applying it to what’s portrayed in the series. The databook is a non-factor to in series scaling.

and I've provided a plethora of statements ranging from Endeavor's comparison of Shigaraki to non-prime All Might, how Shigaraki is Garaki's perfection, a perfect Nomu, yet couldn't be remodeled to match All Might, as it would've overburdened his brain, Star&Stripe matching and beating Shigaraki in a physical clash, yet stating she's inferior to All Might, and Deku replicating All Might with 100% of his power.

Endeavor, Aizawa, and Deku all prove his on par level of strength.
Deku, who is All Might level, could not beat Shigaraki, who could eat some punches without much damage, though a barrage is troublesome. Endeavor, someone who literally devoted his life to surpassing All Might, says he’s on par with All Might, Aizawa, someone who literally fought the USJ Nomu states he’s on par with the USJ Nomu.
All the doctor says is he isn’t on par with All Might, which version of All Might is he referring to? Prime All Might? Weakened All Might? Post OFA transfer AM? Kamino AM? What version?
Which version of AM is Cassie referring to? Prime? Weakened? We don’t know.

I believe this a better-substantiated interpretation than suggesting every High-End, regardless of their goal, role, or design, is physically stronger or more durable to blunt force than every upper-tier, even ones solely oriented around physical strength and durability to blunt force. That's why I'm here.

I believe this is a better-sustained interpretation than suggesting my opinion of the ranking isn’t based upon what the author sets out. That being Strength over strength, and regardless of what quirks they have been listed with and what’s the goal they’re meant to achieve, it’s not how the author ranks them as he states himself that its base on strength and quirk number and not the quirks they have. That’s why I’m here.

 

[TimmyTurnero]

Ill leave the rest to the staff to lay out their opinions.

 

[Onelixy]

Ill leave the rest to the staff to lay out their opinions.

I respect that. And to be fair, your post is probably one of the best breakdowns I've seen of the current ideas around the scaling chain. Thanks for the input! Not sure if I should respond to your post, as I'll just be repeating myself, and personally, I think I've addressed everything you've brought up in detail. If there's something concrete that you think I really should address that I genuinely have not, let me know! And If there's something specific I've said that's confusing, just ask me to clarify.

 

[Onelixy]

Nevermind. I'll address it anyway, seems necessary. (sorry)

It doesn’t give of us “insight” of how he scale characters in series, it’s a databook giving information on these characters, if he feels this is a simplistic way to go about it, then so be it, but basing an entire argument off of this interpretation will not work unless you provide any form of evidence stating so. In the actual series where is it depicted that he scale his characters based on this guidebook? Or any form of information based upon in series characters is based on this databook? You have to provide reasoning for this or else your entire structure just collapse

As I explained to Therefir, the point was never their exact scores provided by Horikoshi. It's about their stats, and what he could possibly include within those 4-5 categories of different stats. Moreover, their scores provide Hori's idea of the characters. I personally think that some profiles may seem slightly off, but again, I don't know what he includes, but I acknowledge this is his idea of the characters.

What the hell are you talking about? Like did you miss the entire point of the argument?
They separated the amount of quirks they have from their base strength. While yes, enhancements increase the amount of quirks they can wield, this hierarchy is based purely on their base capabilities.

They explicitly state it's based on both their physical enhancements (body modifications and adjustments) and how many quirks they can wield. For a body to wield certain amounts of quirks or certain powerful quirks, the body has to be able to endure it or match it in other ways. It could be as simple as someone having a quirk that shoots part of their body requiring higher regeneration and body mass. This has never been limited to or explained as physical strength.

This is just bad interpretation, whether they can surpass a higher tier with a shit ton of quirks is a non factor, point being made is H>M>L based on BASE strength. HEN>> any other Nomu physically, which includes the USJ Nomu whose BASE strength is All Might level

I find my take here not only reasonable but more consistent yours. If Garaki designed a specific upper-tier Nomu to only have the physical strength to match All Might and a quirk to handle the only type of damage he could deal, he'd just need 2 quirks and ridiculous strength, and that's it. As explained to you earlier, even Shoto at BoS was able to severely damage the U.S.J Nomu, as it's not overall impressive, it just has specific traits where it excels. Again, the Nomu's having different baselines is never an indication of their peak.

The stats and tiering system that he uses are already placed out for us, amount of quirks base strength is how they’re ranked among each other. Nothing else, that’s literally it. Anything else requires evidence or else it’s a baseless claim. The burden of proof is on you.
If the tiers are based on base strength, and the HEN are stated to STAND ABOVE ALL of the other Nomu, then their base strength is above ALL.


What are you implying?

I've already proved my case, you can choose to disagree with it, or actually find a contradiction or real evidence against it. I've said from the beginning that I agree that each tier (including the HEN's) would have a higher physical baseline. But that's a baseline, not the potential or limit within their tier. That's just wrong.

When? Where? How? When the hell is there a statement suggesting the HEN are weaker than the USJ Nomu? Where are the narrative implications suggesting the USJ Nomu is stronger than the HEN? And when does Horikoshi state they’re stronger?
It’s crazy you claim it’s reinforced by “tons of statements” but you have yet to provide one.

I've written extensively about Garaki's statement, the context where it was provided, Horikoshi's idea of the characters, Aizawa's statement, Deku replicating All Might with 100%, S&S stating she's inferior to All Might, yet winning a clash against Shigaraki, Mirko vs specific Nomu, and her statement regarding Shigaraki, etc.

Horikoshi literally refers to these stats as quirk number and base power and literally ranks his hierarchy based on this. Your opinion is a non factor.

This is incorrect. He specifically used new words and descriptions for the High-Ends. He doesn't say they possess more "strength" than everyone else, but that High-Ends possess higher stats. While as I've explained to you a couple of times now, I'd agree with the logic that the HEN's would also operate at a higher baseline for strength. You know, more than just 10 average people.

Which literally makes no sense and contradicts anything the author has laid out for us. THE RANKINGS ARE ORDED BY STRENGTH AND QUIRK NUMBERS, BASE STRENGTH BEING A LEADER FACTOR FOR ALL OF THIS. ANY OTHER INTERPRETATION IS NOTHING BUT AN INTERPRETATION.

Given what I've explained to you now, how does this contradict anything at all?

Which is shown contradicting itself many times over, being inconsistent and unreliable when applying it to what’s portrayed in the series. The databook is a non-factor to in series scaling.

Didn't know you talked to Horikoshi personally. What did he say he included in his categories of stats? That's really interesting.

Of course it's not a non-factor if you care about his intent.

Endeavor, Aizawa, and Deku all prove his on par level of strength.
Deku, who is All Might level, could not beat Shigaraki, who could eat some punches without much damage, though a barrage is troublesome. Endeavor, someone who literally devoted his life to surpassing All Might, says he’s on par with All Might, Aizawa, someone who literally fought the USJ Nomu states he’s on par with the USJ Nomu.
All the doctor says is he isn’t on par with All Might, which version of All Might is he referring to? Prime All Might? Weakened All Might? Post OFA transfer AM? Kamino AM? What version?
Which version of AM is Cassie referring to? Prime? Weakened? We don’t know.

Endeavor compared Shigaraki, Garaki's perfect creation, to All Might, with an image of non-prime All Might, and Garaki answers in the very same panel that he couldn't make Shigaraki on par with All Might, as it would've overburdened his brain. Aizawa is also reminded of the U.S.J, which was created by Garaki to have strength on par with All Might, whom All Might defeated. All of these indicate a specific reference to non-prime All Might, and there's no question about it.

I believe this is a better-sustained interpretation than suggesting my opinion of the ranking isn’t based upon what the author sets out. That being Strength over strength, and regardless of what quirks they have been listed with and what’s the goal they’re meant to achieve, it’s not how the author ranks them as he states himself that its base on strength and quirk number and not the quirks they have. That’s why I’m here.

But I've demonstrated why I disagree. I believe my interpretation far more aligns with what the "author sets out" than yours. The strength aspect is just a baseline and says nothing about a limit within a tier of Nomu.

But yeah you're right, we should leave this up to the very eager and happy moderators that surely want to change the current HEN's scaling chain!

 

[Ultimate_Invader_Pendulum]

i think Onelixy is right

 

[CloverDragon03]

This is a necro at this point. The thread should be closed