Dragon Ball Super upgrades.

[Bernkastelll]

First of all, i dunno if this is already being discussed in another CRT.

Well, in Goku profile, we have this: At most Low Multiverse level (Fought on an equal footing with a fully-powered Jiren in Ultra Instinct Omen who was stated by Vegeta to “step over the state of the Gods”. After transforming into Perfected Ultra Instinct, he easily nullified a compressed ball of ki from Jiren. The force of this ki alone was going to crush all members of Universe 11 (including Belmod). Later dominated Jiren in this state, and still fought Jiren evenly after Jiren broke his limits, and managed to defeat him after becoming enraged), | Universe level (Stronger than before, as he has been training with Vegeta for a while, and most recently with Broly), at most Low Multiverse level as a Super Saiyan Blue (By the time of Dragon Ball Super: Super Hero, Goku is touted as being on par with Orange Piccolo, who can fight against Cell Max)

So, if Goku is 2-C and is stated to be on par with Orange Piccolo, why is Orange Piccolo, Cell Max and Gohan not 2-C as well?

 

[CiscoTheSoto]

It's probably just that nobody's gotten around to actually implementing the changes to their profiles. There's absolutely no reason for the characters you mentioned not to be 2-C. Broly's FPSSJ key also isn't 2-C yet cuz nobody's added the new rating, either.

 

[LordTracer]

There's absolutely no reason for the characters you mentioned not to be 2-C.

I’m gonna note that I haven’t seen Super Hero, I’m just going by the site justifications, but I have to ask why Cell Max would be 2-C? Cause the only thing that scales it to a 2-C character is this:

Had Cell Max been completed even Broly would be unable to defeat him

But if I understand correctly, it wasn’t completed, so why exactly would this be valid scaling for it?

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I updated those three mentioned in the OP.

Also, it was agreed in the precious content revision that Piccolo stated the outcome of the fight wouldn't have been that much different even if Goku and Vegeta were here. And this is including the fact that Goku and Vegeta have gotten a lot stronger at this point in time to the point where even their base forms would be Tier 2.

 

[LordTracer]

I updated those three mentioned in the OP.

Also, it was agreed in the precious content revision that Piccolo stated the outcome of the fight wouldn't have been that much different even if Goku and Vegeta were here. And this is including the fact that Goku and Vegeta have gotten a lot stronger at this point in time to the point where even their base forms would be Tier 2.

But Goku and Vegeta are only 2-C by scaling to Piccolo… and he’s only 2-C by scaling to Cell Max.

 

[CiscoTheSoto]

I updated those three mentioned in the OP.

Yea I saw, but base Piccolo and Potential Unleashed Piccolo are still just Low 2-C since he fought against the Gammas, who themselves are Low 2-C. Only Orange Piccolo would be At Most 2-C.

I’m gonna note that I haven’t seen Super Hero, I’m just going by the site justifications, but I have to ask why Cell Max would be 2-C? Cause the only thing that scales it to a 2-C character is this:

But if I understand correctly, it wasn’t completed, so why exactly would this be valid scaling for it?

Well Piccolo also stated that he believed Goku and Vegeta would've had a tough time against Cell Max. There's never any clear indication whether that meant SSB Goku and Vegeta or UI Goku and UE Vegeta, that's the problem. Same goes for the statement made about the Gammas being just as strong as Goku and Vegeta: Piccolo never outright said they were comparable to SSB Goku and Vegeta, but that's what's being assumed. We don't have too many concrete scaling comparisons, just based off assumptions, so I do admit there are some problems there with the scaling system.

 

[BasedNecoScaler69]

Yea I saw, but base Piccolo and Potential Unleashed Piccolo are still just Low 2-C since he fought against the Gammas, who themselves are Low 2-C. Only Orange Piccolo would be At Most 2-C.

Well Piccolo also stated that he believed Goku and Vegeta would've had a tough time against Cell Max. There's never any clear indication whether that meant SSB Goku and Vegeta or UI Goku and UE Vegeta, that's the problem. Same goes for the statement made about the Gammas being just as strong as Goku and Vegeta: Piccolo never outright said they were comparable to SSB Goku and Vegeta, but that's what's being assumed. We don't have too many concrete scaling comparisons, just based off assumptions, so I do admit there are some problems there with the scaling system.

The battle of cell max has been wog stated to be " the strongest in history"

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Yea I saw, but base Piccolo and Potential Unleashed Piccolo are still just Low 2-C since he fought against the Gammas, who themselves are Low 2-C. Only Orange Piccolo would be At Most 2-C.

Where would Low 2-C come from if that is being upgraded to "At most 2-C" outright scaling from the GoD

 

[CiscoTheSoto]

Where would Low 2-C come from if that is being upgraded to "At most 2-C" outright scaling from the GoD

What was being upgraded wasn't specifically all the Low 2-C ratings: it was the "at least Low 2-C" characters like UI Goku, Full Power Jiren, Super Full Power Jiren. All the characters with that rating due to scaling to or slightly above the GoD, but neither base Piccolo or Potential Unleashed Piccolo scale to that. We have those keys scaled to SSB level, and SSB Goku and Vegeta reached Low 2-C during the Tournament of Power. Does that make sense?

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I thought everyone who upscales from Belmod did, which all of them scaled from a surpressed Jiren who scales above Belmod even at that state. Recall AKM mentioning that too.

 

[LordTracer]

which all of them scaled from a surpressed Jiren who scales above Belmod even at that state

Mm, no, suppressed Jiren gets his scaling exclusively from Infinite Zamasu. The only “At most 2-C” characters are those who were “At least Low 2-C“ due to scaling to Gods of Destruction.

By the way, you listed Cell Max’s durability as “At most Multiverse level” instead of “At least Low Multiverse level”.

 

[CiscoTheSoto]

I disagree with Gohan's new profile justification for his Super Saiyan state being "At Most Low 2-C", and think that should only apply for his Beast Gohan state, while his Super Saiyan and Potential Unleashed state should just scale to Low 2-C. Again, if we could see Orange Piccolo fight either Goku or Vegeta in the manga, or get some clearer statements about the power of the Gammas, that'd be a big help to settle this confusion. Personally, I think Orange Piccolo scales to UI Goku and UE Vegeta, not their SSB transformations, but that was never explicitly confirmed, either, so we've left it up to interpretation.

 

[LordTracer]

There's never any clear indication whether that meant SSB Goku and Vegeta or UI Goku and UE Vegeta, that's the problem.

Overlooking the fact that UE Vegeta doesn’t have scaling in the anime, so that’s just weird in general, that’s exactly the situation where you’d give a possibly rating, not a solid one.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Mm, no, suppressed Jiren gets his scaling exclusively from Infinite Zamasu. The only “At most 2-C” characters are those who were “At least Low 2-C“ due to scaling to Gods of Destruction.

By the way, you listed Cell Max’s durability as “At most Multiverse level” instead of “At least Low Multiverse level”.

My computer is a laggy piece of shit

 

[CiscoTheSoto]

Overlooking the fact that UE Vegeta doesn’t have scaling in the anime, so that’s just weird in general, that’s exactly the situation where you’d give a possibly rating, not a solid one.

Yea I agree, the scaling's indeed been iffy since the DBS: Super Hero movie. It look as though the scaling for the DBS: Super Hero is being used in the manga, but the movie never made any references to the Moro or Granolah arc, nor did it reference Vegeta's new transformation, either. Probably done to avoid any confusion for people who didn't read the manga. So yea, a possibly would've been a better rating.

 

[Sir_Marvulous]

The battle of cell max has been wog stated to be " the strongest in history"

I've seen the scan but we've yet to have added it to the profiles. Does anyone have it?

 

[Sir_Marvulous]

But if I understand correctly, it wasn’t completed, so why exactly would this be valid scaling for it?

Between that statement and the fact that Hedo said Cell Max is physically complete but lacks the mind control program, it was decided that he scales to Broly.

That by itself is weak so we should really use the "strongest battle in history" statement

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Anyway, I attempted fixing the stats better for Gohan and Piccolo's pages.

 

[LordTracer]

"strongest battle in history" statement

See, if that was on its profile, I wouldn’t question it being 2-C. It’s just the Broly statement that shouldn’t be used on its own.

 

[CiscoTheSoto]

Anyway, I attempted fixing the stats better for Gohan and Piccolo's pages.

I saw that, thank you very much.

 

[Sir_Marvulous]

Okay, I found one of those things. This only applies to Gohan, obviously. I need help looking for the scan that states Saigo Gohan vs Cell Max is "the strongest battle in history"

 

[Eseseso]

Ok, I'm sick of this.

Restrained Jiren should scale above Belmod.

1. Whis's statement in 110 was blatantly saying that Restrained Jiren > Belmod.

1.5. No one ******* scratched Restrained Jiren, he wasn't even hurt by Vegeta's attacks.

2. He scared Beerus with his casual aura.

3. He casually shook the World of Void when 3 GoD's fighting couldn't, making him > 3 GoD's and making him 2-C.

 

[LordTracer]

Ok, I'm sick of this.

Restrained Jiren should scale above Belmod.

1. Whis's statement in 110 was blatantly saying that Restrained Jiren > Belmod.

1.5. No one ******* scratched Restrained Jiren, he wasn't even hurt by Vegeta's attacks.

2. He scared Beerus with his casual aura.

3. He casually shook the World of Void when 3 GoD's fighting couldn't, making him > 3 GoD's and making him 2-C.

This is not what this thread is about. Don’t derail.

 

[Sir_Marvulous]

mad derail, my guy

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

He casually shook the World of Void when 3 GoD's fighting couldn't, making him > 3 GoD's and making him 2-C.

I may agree with some of those points, especially the 3rd one. But this is off topic as Lord Tracer said.

 

[Eseseso]

Jiren should be 2-C FRA.

But I do admit it's a derail so I apologize.

And Cell Max IIRC was completed strength-wise, he just didn't have the mental control.

 

[Eseseso]

Also, I feel this is relevant: https://vsbattles.com/threads/db-super-hero-base-gohan-should-be-low-2c.144436/

 

[Sir_Marvulous]

Also, I feel this is relevant: https://vsbattles.com/threads/db-super-hero-base-gohan-should-be-low-2c.144436/

The reason why DBS Super Hero Base Gohan is still 3-A (and Super Saiyan God for that matter) is because the standard is that the power that is (x) times weaker should have tier 2 feats of its own

 

[LordTracer]

Jiren should be 2-C FRA.

But I do admit it's a derail so I apologize.

You should make your own CRT about it.

 

[Sir_Marvulous]

You should make your own CRT about it.

You have no idea

 

[Bernkastelll]

But Goku and Vegeta are only 2-C by scaling to Piccolo… and he’s only 2-C by scaling to Cell Max.

they arent 2-C by scaling to Piccolo, they have 2-C key before it, i'm just saying that Piccolo and Gohan need to be 2-C cuz Goku profile says that he is 2-C and shares a similar strength to Piccolo

 

[SirAlex09]

But if I understand correctly, it wasn’t completed, so why exactly would this be valid scaling for it?

Only the mind control wasn't completed. Powerwise he was complete as stated in the movie.
Basically the statement heavily implies that Cell Max controlled by Hedo brilliant strategic mind would clap Broly. But strategy doesn't mean anything if you are below in power, especially if we have two characters that rely on brute strength rather than hax or special abilities like Kienzan.
So Cell Max has to be relative to Broly even without being "completed" which makes the scaling chain valid.

 

[LuffyRuffy46307]

Anyway, I attempted fixing the stats better for Gohan and Piccolo's pages.

Piccolo has a mention of his new transformation rivaling Goku, but when Akira Toriyama states this is he talking about Goku with superior instinct or blue?

 

[Nullflowerblush]

As Goku has yet to reacquire Ultra Instinct, the comment likely refers to Super Saiyan Blue.

 

[LordTracer]

they arent 2-C by scaling to Piccolo, they have 2-C key before it, i'm just saying that Piccolo and Gohan need to be 2-C cuz Goku profile says that he is 2-C and shares a similar strength to Piccolo

Yes, they are 2-C by scaling to Piccolo. This is the only justification they have:

at most Low Multiverse level as a Super Saiyan Blue (By the time of Dragon Ball Super: Super Hero, Goku is touted as being on par with Orange Piccolo, who can fight against Cell Max)

 

[KLOL506]

Question: What do the current DBS characters retain Low 2-C for, again? Any and all scaling to Beerus or above have already been revised to "At most 2-C" due to Tier 2 standards. Also, why is Vegeta still "At least Low 2-C" instead of "At most 2-C"?

 

[LordTracer]

Question: What do the current DBS characters retain Low 2-C for, again?

Scaling to suppressed Jiren, who scales above Infinite Zamasu.

 

[KLOL506]

Scaling to suppressed Jiren, who scales above Infinite Zamasu.

Ah, makes sense then.

 

[Bernkastelll]

Yes, they are 2-C by scaling to Piccolo. This is the only justification they have:

At most Low Multiverse level (Fought on an equal footing with a fully-powered Jiren in Ultra Instinct Omen who was stated by Vegeta to “step over the state of the Gods”. After transforming into Perfected Ultra Instinct, he easily nullified a compressed ball of ki from Jiren. The force of this ki alone was going to crush all members of Universe 11 (including Belmod). Later dominated Jiren in this state, and still fought Jiren evenly after Jiren broke his limits, and managed to defeat him after becoming enraged),

 

[Eseseso]

I mean Jiren while suppressed scaling above IZ is consistent, since with just his aura he effortlessly scared Beerus who wasn't even close to scared by IZ.