Pokémon: Arceus Low 1-C Revision

[CloverDragon03]

Your big problem is that you're just looking at each piece of evidence individually without taking those pieces as part of a collective reason for Arceus being Low 1-C. Everything12 pretty much summed up my take on this, so I still disagree with the downgrade.

 

[ImmortalDread]

Your big problem is that you're just looking at each piece of evidence individually without taking those pieces as part of a collective reason for Arceus being Low 1-C. Everything12 pretty much summed up my take on this, so I still disagree with the downgrade.

What about changing the justification?

 

[Sniper670]

Your big problem is that you're just looking at each piece of evidence individually without taking those pieces as part of a collective reason for Arceus being Low 1-C. Everything12 pretty much summed up my take on this, so I still disagree with the downgrade.

And combining all the evidence doesn't prove low 1C. So I'm not sure what you're on about

 

[CloverDragon03]

What about changing the justification?

If necessary, the justification can be altered. For example, I'm not sure what the Hoopa point proves

And combining all the evidence doesn't prove low 1C. So I'm not sure what you're on about

Again, no real explanation, just saying "well it actually doesn't" and expecting us to just take your word for it

 

[ImmortalDread]

If necessary, the justification can be altered. For example, I'm not sure what the Hoopa point proves

Thanks for your input!

 

[Sniper670]

Again, no real explanation, just saying "well it actually doesn't" and expecting us to just take your word for it

 

[Antvasima]

Well, it seems like this revision does not have staff support so far then.

 

[Antvasima]

Anyway, everybody please try to calm down and be polite here.

 

[ImmortalDread]

Most of the staff members do agree with the justification for modification. They likely disagree with downgrade.

 

[Sniper670]

Well, we're still waiting for the justification........

 

[AguilaR202]

Wouldn’t the time and space represented by dialga and Palkia need to be an ininitesimal part of Arceus to qualify as higher D in relation to them?

 

[Reiner04]

Wouldn’t the time and space represented by dialga and Palkia need to be an ininitesimal part of Arceus to qualify as higher D in relation to them?

No, just arecus being bigger than infinite multiverse is enough.

 

[Breakdown]

Put me down as disagree.

4D concepts like time and space being a miniscule part of it while it also transcends them is enough.

OP might want to look into ontological theology, it'd probably help him understand things.

 

[ImmortalDread]

The second was unnecessary comment. No need to offend OP while with disagreeing someone, even if he is banned.

 

[CloverDragon03]

Since OP has been permabanned and there hasn't been much support for this CRT aside from OP, what should we do from here?

I do think that regardless, we may need to discuss reworking Arceus' Low 1-C justification. As mentioned before, I'm not really sure what the Hoopa part of his profile proves in this regard, for example

 

[ImmortalDread]

Since OP has been permabanned and there hasn't been much support for this CRT aside from OP, what should we do from here?

I do think that regardless, we may need to discuss reworking Arceus' Low 1-C justification. As mentioned before, I'm not really sure what the Hoopa part of his profile proves in this regard, for example

As I said above, the majority agrees with justification modification.

 

[Reiner04]

So what'll be the new justification though?

 

[ImmortalDread]

So what'll be the new justification though?

A better version of the old justification.

 

[StrymULTRA]

I dunno lol, I wrote the justification, thinking that is enough ngl.

 

[ImmortalDread]

I dunno lol, I wrote the justification, thinking that is enough ngl.

Ofc if you wrote it, you will think it is best

 

[ImmortalDread]

Low Complex Multiverse level (Is the origin of the creation of everything in Pokémon, including the realms of The Creation Trio, including Giratina's which lacks both time and directions, and Palkia's which has domain over both the parallel dimensions and the directions, with the Creation Trio members also being their own realms themselves. Arceus is the "God who transcends everything" whose realm is beyond both time and space and that treats the Pokémon reality, which is made of countless to likely infinite universes, as a mere aspect of its true being, as also showcased from its consciousness extending across both space and time and Hoopa being able to forcefully summon the Creation Trio out of their realms with the "infinite power" of its rings, but being unable to do the same with Arceus', as it's the only one who could seal said power)

This is 2-A

Is the origin of the creation of everything in Pokémon, including the realms of The Creation Trio, including Giratina's which lacks both time and directions, and Palkia's which has domain over both the parallel dimensions and the directions, with the Creation Trio members also being their own realms themselves.

This is low 1-C but a little “stretched”, the fact that we no longer take the former as evidence for it.

Arceus is the "God who transcends everything" whose realm is beyond both time and space and that treats the Pokémon reality

This is 2-A (I have no idea why it is repeated)

which is made of countless to likely infinite universes

This is talking about concepts being mere aspect of its true being

as a mere aspect of its true being

No idea what this should tell us

as also showcased from its consciousness extending across both space and time

No clue, why would this even matter. “Infinite power” has no relevance here.

Hoopa being able to forcefully summon the Creation Trio out of their realms with the "infinite power" of its rings, but being unable to do the same with Arceus', as it's the only one who could seal said power

 

[Rendynoc0unter]

Since OP has been permabanned and there hasn't been much support for this CRT aside from OP, what should we do from here?

Sorry, why was he banned?

 

[Setsuna_tenma]

Sorry, why was he banned?

toxic behaviour in pokemon threads

 

[ShivaShakti]

Sorry, why was he banned?

He wasn't simply banned, he chose the nuclear option and permanently locked himself out of his own account.

 

[Antvasima]

toxic behaviour in pokemon threads

That is incorrect. He had not done anything truly worthy of a ban in my view, just a warning.

He wasn't simply banned, he chose the nuclear option and permanently locked himself out of his own account.

That is correct, yes, and since he had given access to his account to another member, we were force to ban it.

If he wants to reset the code at some point, he can probably contact AKM sama via Discord though.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Since OP has been permabanned and there hasn't been much support for this CRT aside from OP, what should we do from here?

I do think that regardless, we may need to discuss reworking Arceus' Low 1-C justification. As mentioned before, I'm not really sure what the Hoopa part of his profile proves in this regard, for example

Since I was the one who originally made the Low 1-C upgrade in the first place, and got it passed, I’ll clarify the Hoopa part.

Hoopas part of the justification is only supposed to be minor support evidence to add onto the stronger more significant evidence in the justification. It’s not a main justification for Low 1-C, just an “add on” point.

But Hoopa was added in because in Clash of Ages, Hoopas rings (which effect space-time) possess infinite power. Hoopa in his strongest form, Hoopa Unbound, was able to forcibly have his rings connect to the dimensions of the Creation Trio and summon them forth. That means the power of Hoopas rings can, by force, interact with 4-D space.

However, even as Hoopa Unbound, it can’t interact with or in any way connect with Arceus’s dimension, since Ghris, a human with a small figment of Arceus’s power, was able to weaken Hoopa by sealing his power away, and put restrictions on what his rings can do. If a small figment of Arceus’s power is > Hoopas rings power, then it gives a good implication that Arceus’s dimension is superior over what can interact with 4-D space. And the only realistic way that could happen is if Arceus’s dimension is superior to said 4-D space and what could interact within it, aka being 5-D (which ties into the other stronger evidences for Low 1-C)

Hoopas part of the justification gives a small implication of Low 1-C that’s just “worth noting”. It’s nothing more than an add on for the other complied evidences.

 

[Everything12]

And the only realistic way that could happen is if Arceus’s dimension is 5-D (which ties into the other stronger evidences for Low 1-C)

Or it's a 4D space beyond the reachs of the 4D space that Hoopa can interact with

Yeah, it's just additional possible supporting evidence added because some users agreed with it and it wouldn't hurt to have it added to the justification.

 

[CloverDragon03]

Since I was the one who originally made the Low 1-C upgrade in the first place, and got it passed, I’ll clarify the Hoopa part.

Hoopas part of the justification is only supposed to be minor support evidence to add onto the stronger more significant evidence in the justification. It’s not a main justification for Low 1-C, just an “add on” point.

But Hoopa was added in because in Clash of Ages, Hoopas rings (which effect space-time) possess infinite power. Hoopa in his strongest form, Hoopa Unbound, was able to forcibly have his rings connect to the dimensions of the Creation Trio and summon them forth. That means the power of Hoopas rings can, by force, interact with 4-D space.

However, even as Hoopa Unbound, it can’t interact with or in any way connect with Arceus’s dimension, since Ghris, a human with a small figment of Arceus’s power, was able to weaken Hoopa by sealing his power away, and put restrictions on what his rings can do. If a small figment of Arceus’s power is > Hoopas rings power, then it gives a good implication that Arceus’s dimension is superior over what can interact with 4-D space. And the only realistic way that could happen is if Arceus’s dimension is 5-D (which ties into the other stronger evidences for Low 1-C)

Hoopas part of the justification gives a small implication of Low 1-C that’s just “worth noting”. It’s nothing more than an add on for the other complied evidences.

This seems fine then. I'm not sure how I'd feel if it were a main point of evidence, but as an extra bit of support, it's fine

 

[Everything12]

Surprised this scan isn't directly in the AP justification though, as certain staff knowledgeable in Tier 1 took note of it.

 

[CloverDragon03]

Dialga and Palkia being treated as embodying infinite time and infinite space and Arceus trivializing them would help, yeah

 

[Everything12]

Dialga and Palkia being treated as embodying infinite time and infinite space and Arceus trivializing them would help, yeah

The quote is in the sandbox that the countless to infinite multiverse portion of Arceus' justification links to, but I do think it probably should be presented more directly.

The all-encompassing epitaph from Legends: Arceus would also probably be helpful to have links to in the justification.

 

[ImmortalDread]

Dialga and Palkia being treated as embodying infinite time and infinite space and Arceus trivializing them would help, yeah

May I know from where "trivializing" comes from?

 

[CloverDragon03]

May I know from where "trivializing" comes from?

Arceus trivializes the Creation Trio as mere aspects of itself, that's one of the scans on his profile

 

[Everything12]

May I know from where "trivializing" comes from?

All-encompassing, transcending everything, being in a realm beyond those infinite time and space, treating Hoopa who plays with the Creation Trio as nothing, outside the reach of Giratina and the space-time rift it created, beings who govern the multiverse originated as parts of itself. That part about the Red Chain and the origins of the Heart and awareness about existence is probably noteworthy enough that it should probably be in the justification.

 

[Zencha9]

i disagree with this CRT for everything's reasons

 

[ImmortalDread]

All-encompassing, transcending everything, being in a realm beyond those infinite time and space, treating Hoopa who plays with the Creation Trio as nothing, outside the reach of Giratina and the space-time rift it created, beings who govern the multiverse originated as parts of itself. That part about the Red Chain and the origins of the Heart and awareness about existence is probably noteworthy enough that it should probably be in the justification.

I don't want to sound annoying, but pretty sure the “all-encompassing, transcending everything” comes from his name.
In which case do we take those names as literal?

 

[Everything12]

I don't want to sound annoying, but pretty sure the “all-encompassing, transcending everything” comes from his name.
In which case do we take those names as literal?

Transcending everything is from a description not a name. (It's linked in the AP justification)

For the all-encompassing part, not only do we have no reason to not believe it, but the fact that theirs all that stuff about space and time having emerged from the Heart, that all people and Pokémon throughout space and time share the same Heart, that the rulers of space, time, and anti-space-time were parts of Arceus', and all the other stuff about Arceus being beyond space and time and transcending everything, kinda just makes it seem more likely than not.

Also, besides the mention of the world only beginning when the Heart (Arceus) started to percieve the world. It is explained in Legends: Arceus why the Red Chains can bind space and time and the reason the Lake Trio is connected to it. It is because of the fact that if space and time was to end without a mind to realise it then it wouldn't matter, and it's only through perceiving space and time that they are formed, and the Red Cahin allows to 'see' the world properly.

 

[ImmortalDread]

Transcending everything is from a description not a name. (It's linked in the AP justification)

For the all-encompassing part, not only do we have no reason to not believe it, but the fact that theirs all that stuff about space and time having emerged from the Heart, that all people and Pokémon throughout space and time share the same Heart, that the rulers of space, time, and anti-space-time were parts of Arceus', and all the other stuff about Arceus being beyond space and time and transcending everything, kinda just makes it seem more likely than not.

Also, besides the mention of the world only beginning when the Heart (Arceus) started to percieve the world. It is explained in Legends: Arceus why the Red Chains can bind space and time and the reason the Lake Trio is connected to it. It is because of the fact that if space and time was to end without a mind to realise it then it wouldn't matter, and it's only through perceiving space and time that they are formed, and the Red Cahin allows to 'see' the world properly.

Actually, I never expect this precise elaborated apprehensible explanation from you. Thank you everything12, I now strongly believe he is low 1-C, then. I cleared my doubts.

 

[Everything12]

Took all these from Executor_N0's blog, go there to see more and the translated Japanese of these scans.

Spoiler: Lots of images

 

[StrymULTRA]

Surprised this scan isn't directly in the AP justification though, as certain staff knowledgeable in Tier 1 took note of it.

It's already in the 2-A justification blog.