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[Vizer04]

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[Gilad_Hyperstar]

1st Downgrade

Currently, we have Krillin listed as Planet level based on this reasoning:

However, Vegeta is baseline so Krillin shouldn't scale to him. Instead, we should scale him above Goku and Nappa (Small Panet level)

Krillin's justification is that he manages to easily avoid attacks and beat down Ginyu-Goku, who had a PL of 23,000. That exceeds the PL of Saiyan Saga Vegeta, who scales to the 5-B feat

I made a Ginyu Force CRT specifically to change that for Krillin

 

[Vizer04]

Krillin's justification is that he manages to easily avoid attacks and beat down Ginyu-Goku, who had a PL of 23,000. That exceeds the PL of Saiyan Saga Vegeta, who scales to the 5-B feat

I made a Ginyu Force CRT specifically to change that for Krillin

Of, forget about that

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Did the OP just change? Anyway, I disagree with this because while Tri-Beam is Tien's signature attack; he has mastered it to the point where it doesn't drain his lifeforce. And he's also used it to trade blows with those who can harm him, so he would be High 4-C outright. Plus, Krillin and Master Roshi have still fought and defeated a multitude of fighters; more so in the latter's case but Krillin is still officially the most powerful Earthling. Krillin was also able to keep up with 18 against Majora.

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

Android 18 should not even be Tier 4 at this point. She lifted and defeated Tupper easily, who even Base Goku couldn't lift

But yeah, Krillin should definitely scale to Tien

 

[Vizer04]

I disagree with this because while Tri-Beam is Tien's signature attack; he has mastered it to the point where it doesn't drain his lifeforce.

That's irrelevant, the Tri-Beam still allows him to harm opponents way above his league (Semi-Perfect Cell). The only difference is that he can do it without dying (he almost died by using it against Cell) but that doesn't mean his normal power is comparable to the Tri-Beam AP.

And he's also used it to trade blows with those who can harm him, so he would be High 4-C outright.

I'm pretty sure Tien only used the Tri-Beam twice in the tournament and both times it one-shoted his opponent (and he never traded blows with those fighters iirc)

Plus, Krillin and Master Roshi have still fought and defeated a multitude of fighters; more so in the latter's case but Krillin is still officially the most powerful Earthling.

Neither Krillin nor Roshi destroyed Katchin, only Tien did and i already explained why he doesn't scale to the Tri-Beam AP.

Krillin was also able to keep up with 18 against Majora.

Krillin won by trickery, not by overpowering Majora (and even if he did it would be an outlier since Krillin is massively weaker than 18)

 

[Vizer04]

Bump

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

That's irrelevant, the Tri-Beam still allows him to harm opponents way above his league (Semi-Perfect Cell). The only difference is that he can do it without dying (he almost died by using it against Cell) but that doesn't mean his normal power is comparable to the Tri-Beam AP.

I don't think the Semi-Perfect Cell example is consistent; plus Cell was holding back then. He also literally stomped Tien without even trying stating he was a lot weaker than Piccolo and 17 but praised him for his determination. Tien himself also admits he was a lot weaker than the Super Saiyans. Still, that was well before Tien fully mastered Tri Beam. And he still traded blows with those who tanked his Tri Beam with his melee attacks.

'm pretty sure Tien only used the Tri-Beam twice in the tournament and both times it one-shoted his opponent (and he never traded blows with those fighters iirc)

He also used it against a possessed Master Roshi who tanked it iirc.

Neither Krillin nor Roshi destroyed Katchin, only Tien did and i already explained why he doesn't scale to the Tri-Beam AP.

Krillin would still upscale; Tri Beam while a stronger technique than the Kamahamaha Wave, is not overwhelmingly so. And Krillin should still have more power with Destrocto Disks than Tien has with Tri Beam. Also, that was Kajuu Katchin; a metal many times stronger than Katchin that not even a Z Sword trained Gohan could break. There are also other ToP underdogs who broke Kajuu Katchin that human characters have matched and/or bested.

Krillin won by trickery, not by overpowering Majora (and even if he did it would be an outlier since Krillin is massively weaker than 18)

Majora was still giving 18 some trouble and Krillin was able to knock him out because there was the mist and he wasn't overpowering Krillin. Also, while 18 is clearly stronger than Krillin, we still have a discussion rule for 18. We also have a rule against using a base Goku who literally goofed off throughout the entire ToP down to anybody else.

Still, we have multiple characters who broke Kajuu Katchin, and everyone who did should still be a lot stronger than Shin. Which is still the very reason wall nearly all the underdogs are High 4-C to begin with.

 

[Vizer04]

I don't think the Semi-Perfect Cell example is consistent; plus Cell was holding back then.

No, he wasn't. I made a CRT to prove this exact point.

And he still traded blows with those who tanked his Tri Beam with his melee attacks.

Do you have scans of that?

He also used it against a possessed Master Roshi who tanked it iirc.

He was holding back, do you seriously think he would use lethal force against Master Roshi?

There are also other ToP underdogs who broke Kajuu Katchin that human characters have matched and/or bested.

Mention one please.

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

All Tien did was to slow Cell down, and distract him so Androic 18 could escape. Besides, Cell was caught off guard while Tien hit him, and even then Cell was not damaged at all by the blast. I will remind you that Tien's power did not increased since the start of the Android Saga when the three years passed. Had Tien been this powerful, more so than even SSJ Goku, he would have no problem instantly vaporizing Android 19 and Android 20 with his Kikoho, or beating Android 17 and Android 18 with it, as even they scale far far below Semi-Perfect Cell

Tien literally stood no chance against the Androids, as what you're suggesting is to scale Tien to Android 16's AP, which would make him stronger than SSJ Goku, Vegeta and Piccolo, where it was very clear these three are the only ones who can even fight the Androids without getting one shotted by them

 

[Vizer04]

All Tien did was to slow Cell down, and distract him so Androic 18 could escape.

16 couldn't even move Cell...

Besides, Cell was caught off guard while Tien hit him

He was caught off guard five times? Really?

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

16 couldn't even move Cell...

Scaling Tien's AP to Android 16 still doesn't work. If he would, then Tien wouldn't have lost to the Androids just 3 days earlier, and could finish off Android 19 and Android 20 all on his own

He was caught off guard five times? Really?

The Kikoho came at very quick successions, and Cell barely had time to brace himself

 

[Vizer04]

Scaling Tien's AP to Android 16 still doesn't work. If he would, then Tien wouldn't have lost to the Androids just 3 days earlier, and could finish off Android 19 and Android 20 all on his own

He would've died pointlessly and there was no reason to use the Kikoho since Goku was there and Vegeta became a Super Saiyan no long after that.

The Kikoho came at very quick successions, and Cell barely had time to brace himself

That's not true, Cell even had time to see the Androids fleeing from the island:

Also, there's already a CRT where we are discussing this topic so we shouldn't derail the discussion on this one.

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

Scaling Tien's AP to Android 16 still doesn't work. If he would, then Tien wouldn't have lost to the Androids just 3 days earlier, and could finish off Android 19 and Android 20 all on his own

Ehh, you could say the same thing about Krillin not using his Destructo Disc on the Ginyu Force despite it being able to One-shot them all

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

Ehh, you could say the same thing about Krillin not using his Destructo Disc on the Ginyu Force despite it being able to One-shot them all

The Kiezan scales far higher than Krillin's own AP and is pretty easy to avoid. Besides, he implies that would scale to his physical stats somehow, and even one Kikoho could vaporize Android 19 or 20 if this is actually strong enough to hurt Semi-Perfect Cell

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

No, he wasn't. I made a CRT to prove this exact point.

I'll tackles those points later and on that thread.

Do you have scans of that?

Unfortunately, Toei keeps nuking all the fight scenes from YouTube. But it's exactly what happens during the Tien Vs Harmira fight; he tanks his Tri Beams but later gets knocked out by the melee attacks of Tien's clones. Also, keep in mind that Tien's has less raw power when he clones himself.

He was holding back, do you seriously think he would use lethal force against Master Roshi?

It could barely be called holding back if he's using his strongest attacks; Master Roshi simply got much stronger too which Tien could easily sense that.

Mention one please.

Ganos, he damaged Kajuu Katchin in base form. And Master Roshi managed to put up a good fight against his Avian form albeit with less raw power overall.

 

[Vizer04]

But it's exactly what happens during the Tien Vs Harmira fight; he tanks his Tri Beams but later gets knocked out by the melee attacks of Tien's clones. Also, keep in mind that Tien's has less raw power when he clones himself.

He didn't tank the Tri-Beam tho, he was badly hurted by the attack. And i'm pretty sure the clones caugh him off guard.

Ganos, he damaged Kajuu Katchin in base form. And Master Roshi managed to put up a good fight against his Avian form albeit with less raw power overall.

Roshi was being overpowered and he won thanks to a super strong Kamehameha that goes beyond his own limits (said by himself)

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

He didn't tank the Tri-Beam tho, he was badly hurted by the attack. And i'm pretty sure the clones caugh him off guard.

He faked being badly hurt actually, and it was to let Tien's guard down. And even his clones were exhausted and couldn't use full strength at that point.

Roshi was being overpowered and he won thanks to a super strong Kamehameha that goes beyond his own limits (said by himself)

He was overpowered by the transformed state, but even his base form was able to to break Kajuu Katchin. Whom has no real reason to be that much stronger than Roshi. Plus, Roshi's Max Power Kamehameha would upscale accordingly which Krillin would also upscale from.

 

[Vizer04]

He faked being badly hurt actually, and it was to let Tien's guard down.

This is irrelevant.

And even his clones were exhausted and couldn't use full strength at that point.

This is also irrelevant, Tien never overpowered Harmira in their entire fight.

He was overpowered by the transformed state, but even his base form was able to to break Kajuu Katchin. Whom has no real reason to be that much stronger than Roshi.

You're making assumptions, we don't know if Roshi is stronger than Base Ganos and how much stronger.

Plus, Roshi's Max Power Kamehameha would upscale accordingly which Krillin would also upscale from.

Why?

 

[Vizer04]

i don't understand how AKM is always complaining about the speed ratings but hasn't said anything about this even more obvious wank

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

This is irrelevant.

It is still proof he's more durable than Kajuu Katchin, and his punches still harmed him.

This is also irrelevant, Tien never overpowered Harmira in their entire fight.

He actually attempted to fight back but failed

You're making assumptions, we don't know if Roshi is stronger than Base Ganos and how much stronger.

Ganos needed to transform just to even stand a chance against Roshi, and it's not like even his Avian form oneshotted Roshi

Why?

Krillin has a higher PL than Roshi

 

[Vizer04]

It is still proof he's more durable than Kajuu Katchin, and his punches still harmed him.

Tien never punched Harmira.

He actually attempted to fight back but failed

That's not true.

Ganos needed to transform just to even stand a chance against Roshi

Roshi never fought Ganos in his Base Form.

it's not like even his Avian form oneshotted Roshi

Of course, it was against the rules to kill the opponent...

Krillin has a higher PL than Roshi

Roshi used a Kamehameha that drained most of his energy and almost killed him.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Tien never punched Harmira.

He's still physically within the same leagues but done debating this part; Tri Beam is still no longer an attack that drains his lifeforce and thus his own durability doesn't have much reason to be that much lower.

Roshi never fought Ganos in his Base Form.

Yes, because Ganos was too weak to fight in his base form; characters who are no stronger than Krillin or Tien still easily overpowered him.

Of course, it was against the rules to kill the opponent...

It didn't even knock him out either.

Roshi used a Kamehameha that drained most of his energy and almost killed him.

Yes, and Krillin could do the same thing with his Kamahameha or Destrocto Disk without draining his energy so much. But still have roughly the same impact.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Oh yeah, I later found even more evidence of the scaling. Harmira's sniper laser is also potent enough to destroy large portions of Kachi Katchin on similar levels to Tien's Tri Beam. He shot his own teammate by accident who survived it, and Tien's clones who are less powerful than the real Tien also withstood it.

So Tien's Durability + Attack Potency > Durability of his Clones >>>>> Kachi Katchin >>>>>>>>>> Katchin >>>>>>>>>> Z Sword Gohan > Shin.

So the High 4-C scaling stays for those details in addition to the base Ganos scaling.