Touhou Discussion Thread 3 ⌈Eternal Fantasy Edition⌋

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Final Thoughts:

It's still kind of surreal knowing I even got to go at all, to be honest. Never flown anywhere by myself, let alone to the other side of the country, so there was a lot of anxiety going in. But even just getting to be near some of my closest friends in this community, some of whom I've known for years, assuaged those fears and I was able to enjoy the rest of the con without much issue. Even just wandering the premises and looking at all the cool art and cosplays on display just, made me feel extraordinarily happy in a way I don't recall feeling in a long time. I've spoken a lot about how much I love Touhou, but actually going to Touhoufest and indulging in that love firsthand was just... something else entirely. I feel like a lot of social anxiety and unfounded fears about the future have just been obliterated. I know it seems kind of silly to say that, but then again, that's just an extension of the chuunibyou ideology that already changed my life once before. I was genuinely crying a little bit on the way back to the hotel after the closing ceremony, because I was so overwhelmed with feelings of love for this series, for the community, and for every little change my life has undergone because of Touhou. Beyond that more interpersonal meaning, though, the event itself was just fun as hell, and I have nothing but respect for the organizers for keeping things orderly and making Touhoufest the best it can possibly be (though it'd be even better if they somehow got ZUN to fly out to LA next year...). I'll definitely be going back next June, and the year after that, and for as long as Touhoufest continues. 10/10 experience, no notes.

But honestly? After multiple flights, jet lag, me discovering that I somehow get vertigo now despite not doing so as a kid, and hours upon hours of wandering through LAX, I'm really glad to be back home lol

I'm going to bed.

 

[SomeJJJJ]

You are really lucky... ahhh... i wish i had Ace Showdown and buy many things from tohofest

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Hey, there's always next year.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

I feel like such a fucking dumbass rn because I somehow overlooked that the Dragon God has not one, but TWO statements that would objectively scale him to the entire cosmology. Literally just "yeah man he created everything in existence", so uh

Yall can look forward to 2-B at minimum, because it's damn near undeniable that the top tiers scale to the whole cosmology.

 

[Robo432343]

I feel like such a fucking dumbass rn because I somehow overlooked that the Dragon God has not one, but TWO statements that would objectively scale him to the entire cosmology. Literally just "yeah man he created everything in existence", so uh

Yall can look forward to 2-B at minimum, because it's damn near undeniable that the top tiers scale to the whole cosmology.

i was going to ask you why DG doesn't scale to the entire cosmology but was too scared

 

[SomeJJJJ]

I feel like such a fucking dumbass rn because I somehow overlooked that the Dragon God has not one, but TWO statements that would objectively scale him to the entire cosmology. Literally just "yeah man he created everything in existence", so uh

Yall can look forward to 2-B at minimum, because it's damn near undeniable that the top tiers scale to the whole cosmology.

what? which statement?

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

New Hifuu CD is almost upon us. As excited as I am for the possibility of Yukari and Maribel's connection being revealed, I'm also kind of dreading it because of how it'll impact the revisions. I might even have to push out Yukari's reworked profile early.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Dude I can't fucking take it anymore genuinely how much longer do I have to wait

anyways

Renmerry car

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

OKAY IM NOT GONNA TALK STORY STUFF UNTIL I FULLY UNDERSTAND WHAT'S GOING ON BUT THE MUSIC

MY GOD

THE MUSIC IS SO INSANELY GOOD, LITERALLY SOME OF THE BEST STUFF ZUN HAS EVER DONE, IM SO FUCKING HAPPY RN MAN

 

[SomeJJJJ]

I MEAN, WHAT THE HELL , AOCF NECRO FANTASIA IS SO GOOD OHHH MAN

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Never in my life would I have put Necrofantasia and The Concealed Four Seasons at the top of my music rankings but oh man.... now I might have to lol

The Concealed Four Seasons in particular is like, insanely good all the way through. One of the best things ZUN has ever composed, if I'm being honest.

 

[SomeJJJJ]

Hey fuji, what about the story?

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Hey fuji, what about the story?

I'm waiting for the Chinese wiki to upload the final part before I give any thoughts on it.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

I'm waiting for the Chinese wiki to upload the final part before I give any thoughts on it.

Now that I've had a little more time to let things sink in...

I really love the story this time around. Maribel and Renko being separated but still driven by each other's ideals (Maribel setting off on her own to prove the existence of Otherworlds to Renko, and Renko placing enough faith in Maribel's beliefs to find the door to the Otherworld and save Maribel) is a really good bit of character development for both of them. The story does a great job of emphasizing their opposing ideals and how they still manage to overlap in spite of everything, serving as a force that both drives them apart (in the sense of their respective weeks-long disappearances) while also bringing them closer together. The fifth entry's narrator(s?) is particularly interesting to me, not in the least because they sarcastically imply Maribel is something more than human. It heavily suggests some outside observer(s?) is watching over Merry and Renko, taking great interest in their exploits while not directly interfering; I've seen a couple people suggest it could be Mai and Satono, and that's my preferred explanation for now (though Okina and Yukari are also likely culprits). I believe this outside narration also returns during the tenth entry, rejoicing that "the taboo of this land" has been torn to shreds after Renko recklessly dives into a rift leading to another world, while also describing this act as resurrecting the vanished form of the world. So uh, you could interpret that as "saving the world via a sacrificial act of love" if you wish, which is extremely yuri.

oh yeah and the music bangs but yall already knew that

TL;DR: Classic Hifuu story in the sense that it's a lot of symbolism wrapped up in what is undeniably yuri. 10/10.

In terms of VS stuff... oh man. Oh god. Jesus fucking christ. How do I even begin to break this down? I suppose one of the big takeaways is the implication that the difference between the Outside World and Otherworlds is not something that can be attributed to anything under the laws of physics, and their differences are more metaphysical in nature. There's the implication that the Copenhagen Interpretation is canon, of course (which I've heard heavily overlaps with some information from PoDD), which... I'm not sure what that'd imply for the cosmology or the workings of specific verse mechanics (verse-wide subjective reality is either not a thing anymore, or is 100% solid because of this. Or both?). This CD is definitely up there with Dr. Latency in terms of wacky implications nobody in this community is gonna enjoy discussing LOL

TL;DR: This CD is either very good for my plans, or very bad. Leaning towards the former for now, but it bears further investigation.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Also, there are some fascinating theories regarding the possession aspect of the story and how Okina ties into things, though it may take a bit for me to develop my own take. Renko somehow just... knowing where to find a door to an Otherworld is one of the big pieces of evidence to suggest she was not acting of her own free will at that point. Hopefully ZUN follows the trend of the previous 4 CDs and makes a followup later this year.

 

[SomeJJJJ]

Speaking of the story, I have an unresolved doubt, Renko says that in Gensokyo there is no matter as such, turning its inhabitants into ghosts.... Does that mean that no one in Gensokyo is real or something like that ?

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Speaking of the story, I have an unresolved doubt, Renko says that in Gensokyo there is no matter as such, turning its inhabitants into ghosts.... Does that mean that no one in Gensokyo is real or something like that ?

Not really? I believe it moreso has to do with the subjective nature of reality and how nothing truly "exists" unless it is being actively perceived, much like Schrodinger's Cat. This same principle is seen in Dr. Latency's Freak Report, where youkai are simultaneously alive and dead until Maribel observes one directly.

I genuinely have no idea what this means for the verse at large, especially since the subjectivity of reality goes well beyond scientific theories like the Copenhagen Interpretation (and may contradict/alter them at points?) and delves into more metaphysical territory relating to dreams and religious faith. It's also implied that whatever is going on in Gensokyo/the Otherworlds is merely similar to the Copenhagen Interpretation, though it cannot be accurately described using a theorem ultimately bound to physics or quantum theory (again, likely in part due to its metaphysical nature). It's... gonna be interesting, that's for sure.

 

[Shiroiyo]

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

It's peak...

 

[MeWhenEasyModo]

MinusT I kneel before you. Masterpiece.

 

[NothingToDebateWith]

Mmm, yes.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Small update on the revisions. I've surpassed 500 new abilities for characters in the verse, minus anything tied to verse mechanics. Some characters are luckier than others in this regard; Reimu alone gets over 30 new powers, while characters like Wriggle only get 2 (though to be fair, that's more than I thought she'd get).

 

[Ruler_Star_Kuma]

I was reading silent sinner in blue, and have questions towards when I read how Yorihime's fight went, could anyone possibly answer them?

Please and thank you.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

I was reading silent sinner in blue, and have questions towards when I read how Yorihime's fight went, could anyone possibly answer them?

Please and thank you.

Sure, what did you want to ask?

 

[Ruler_Star_Kuma]

Sure, what did you want to ask?

From how it looked, I have about 2 right now, though could probably be more if I do a reread (which may be likely soon) or as I'm typing this.

Though could probably chalk it up to the style of the manga, it looked like at points that Yorihime was tanking the stars from Marisa's danmaku, was that due to the atmosphere having an effect on her power aside from the shining or was that something different like her just dodging?

Second question, minus Reimu (even if she did sort of do a handicap summoning a god and plaguing Yorihime's sword with death essence), Remilia looks like she did the best— at least I think so when I saw what looked like Yorihime taking actual damage against her. Shouldn't that be noted somewhere in Remilia's profile?

Third, people in the lunar capital are that much more nuts than people on Gensokyo, yes? If the bit for Remilia giving Yorihime damage is true, it would be telling for her, yeah?

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

From how it looked, I have about 2 right now, though could probably be more if I do a reread (which may be likely soon) or as I'm typing this.

Though could probably chalk it up to the style of the manga, it looked like at points that Yorihime was tanking the stars from Marisa's danmaku, was that due to the atmosphere having an effect on her power aside from the shining or was that something different like her just dodging?

The atmosphere didn't affect her power. It just made it so the stars didn't twinkle. Considering an ordinary moon rabbit gets bonked on the head by one of the stars and is fine (and a couple of fairies block them without issue), I think it's safer to say that Marisa was just holding back rather than the stars being weakened by some outside force. That would also line up with Marisa being the one to suggest a spell card duel in the first place, and explain that they de-emphasize raw power in favor of style.

Second question, minus Reimu (even if she did sort of do a handicap summoning a god and plaguing Yorihime's sword with death essence), Remilia looks like she did the best— at least I think so when I saw what looked like Yorihime taking actual damage against her. Shouldn't that be noted somewhere in Remilia's profile?

Reimu and Yorihime never fought directly, their fight was almost entirely a measure of their summoning prowess. Remilia only did the best because she was the only one to lead with raw, unrestrained power; Yorihime's strength lies in having 40 million techniques, which gives her a hard counter to any esoteric abilities one might possess. She does not, however, have a counter to throwing hands with someone physically stronger than her. Yorihime only wins by playing into Remilia's narcissism and convincing her to hold back by using a spell card, which gives Yori the opportunity to summon Amaterasu and blast her with the power of the sun (which is obviously a good win condition against a vampire). Notably, Sakuya is also shown to be physically stronger than Yorihime as well, but she doesn't fall back on CQC like Remi does. Reimu even goes so far as to note that Yorihime's victory has nothing to do with power.

It's like comparing a Swiss army knife to a claymore, basically. If you're comparing raw power, then of course the claymore wins. Everything else, though? The Swiss army knife sweeps.

So to answer your question, yes, Remilia should upscale from Yorihime lol

Third, people in the lunar capital are that much more nuts than people on Gensokyo, yes? If the bit for Remilia giving Yorihime damage is true, it would be telling for her, yeah?

They aren't. Eirin is pretty much the only character who's worthy of that much hype, because it's made very clear that she is comically superior to everyone around her. I've shown this above, but Remilia and Sakuya should upscale from Yorihime in AP. Jidiao like Yachie are equal to dragons, which would in turn scale to the other Animal Realm leaders (and Flandre via her fight with Yuuma, and like... 99% of the high tiers by extension because CDS' scaling is a clusterfuck). Okuu is empowered by and can summon Yatagarasu, but she's still in awe of Marisa's power to the point of becoming submissive towards her. Sakuyahime considers the power of the Hourai Elixir (which is Kaguya's own power) far superior to her own, and I shouldn't have to explain that Mokou (+ literally the entire playable cast of Imperishable Night) scales by extension. Kaguya also directly compares Marisa and Alice to the denizens of the Lunar Capital. Native gods like Suwako can surpass the highest of gods, which would include those living in the capital. I might be forgetting a few things, but it's pretty clear that there's good reason to scale Gensokyo denizens to Lunar Capital denizens.

So no, Remilia beating Yorihime isn't a notable feat. It's just a matter of people thinking Yorihime is some uber-powerful god tier when like. That's just demonstrably not true outside of a single very shaky WoG comment (and a comment that came with a music CD, if you wanna be really fucking generous). Even Yukari hyping up the Lunarians is part of Bougetsushou's metanarrative of Yukari and Eirin being locked in the world's pettiest game of 5D chess, where Yukari just pretends the Lunar Capital "beat" her for a month straight (when in reality, she had already won at this point).

I think whoever made the old scaling chain just straight up did not read SSiB, only saw ZUN's comment about Yorihime being super strong, and called it a day. Hell, if you wanna get really deep into this rabbit hole, AFiEU even implies that the capital's "superiority" is a farce and they've entered an era of stagnation and gradual decline while Gensokyo is thriving. It is literally written into the narrative that the Lunar Capital isn't as strong as people think they are! So much of this is easily disproven with even the tiniest bit of context media literacy that it genuinely pisses me off.

Uh, if you couldn't tell, I'm slightly passionate about this topic (<-- Bougetsushou's strongest solider)

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

On a funnier note, Yorihime has no high tier scaling aside from the WoG statements that are directly contradicted by main canon. So there's a good chance she'll end up at "5-B, up to 2-C with Summoning" lmao (although her cutting Marisa's Master Spark could be her one saving grace)

 

[Ruler_Star_Kuma]

Uh, if you couldn't tell, I'm slightly passionate about this topic (<-- Bougetsushou's strongest solider)

Thank you very much for answering! This is the level of knowledgeable on Touhou I hope to be at someday, caught my eyes for a long time. Love it and the passion that surrounds it a lot.

On a funnier note, Yorihime has no high tier scaling aside from the WoG statements that are directly contradicted by main canon. So there's a good chance she'll end up at "5-B, up to 2-C with Summoning" lmao (although her cutting Marisa's Master Spark could be her one saving grace)

This is also pretty interesting, I was caught up in the whole Yorihime hype loop myself for a GOOD while so this definitely helps.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Thank you very much for answering! This is the level of knowledgeable on Touhou I hope to be at someday, caught my eyes for a long time. Love it and the passion that surrounds it a lot.

You're welcome. Feel free to ask me anything else, I've got quite a lot of knowledge on this series saved up.

This is also pretty interesting, I was caught up in the whole Yorihime hype loop myself for a GOOD while so this definitely helps.

It's one of those things that became so prevalent that nobody ever bothered to fact check it because like... why wouldn't it be right?

 

[Ruler_Star_Kuma]

You're welcome. Feel free to ask me anything else, I've got quite a lot of knowledge on this series saved up.

I'll make sure to remember that, thanks again.

It's one of those things that became so prevalent that nobody ever bothered to fact check it because like... why wouldn't it be right?

It was very common to hear from others I've talked to, so feels good to get that off from my mind.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

I just remembered @Kirbonic_Pikmin made this lmao

 

[Ruler_Star_Kuma]

I just remembered @Kirbonic_Pikmin made this lmao

LMAAAAAAAAOOOOOOO THOSE IMAGES GOT ME

Oh lord I needed to see those after today...

 

[Ruler_Star_Kuma]

'Silent Agenda In Blue' LOL

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

I come bearing important news:

I finally found a good logo to use for the verse page lol

 

[SomeJJJJ]

Reimu and Yorihime never fought directly, their fight was almost entirely a measure of their summoning prowess.

Speaking of Reimu and Yorihime uhh... Yorihime is a shrine maiden lol? I am not sure if she could have the few haxes that the shrine maidens would have, or realistically she is not as such, how the heck can she summon gods or something like that, I am left with the doubt.

I think whoever made the old scaling chain just straight up did not read SSiB, only saw ZUN's comment about Yorihime being super strong, and called it a day. Hell, if you wanna get really deep into this rabbit hole, AFiEU even implies that the capital's "superiority" is a farce and they've entered an era of stagnation and gradual decline while Gensokyo is thriving. It is literally written into the narrative that the Lunar Capital isn't as strong as people think they are! So much of this is easily disproven with even the tiniest bit of context media literacy that it genuinely pisses me off.

Wait like what AFiEU????? Can you explain more in detail? or provide scans? I'm really curious to know what you're talking about... rn

On a funnier note, Yorihime has no high tier scaling aside from the WoG statements that are directly contradicted by main canon. So there's a good chance she'll end up at "5-B, up to 2-C with Summoning" lmao (although her cutting Marisa's Master Spark could be her one saving grace)

Why "5-B" ?

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Speaking of Reimu and Yorihime uhh... Yorihime is a shrine maiden lol? I am not sure if she could have the few haxes that the shrine maidens would have, or realistically she is not as such, how the heck can she summon gods or something like that, I am left with the doubt.

She's not. She can just summon gods.

Why "5-B" ?

That's the baseline for mid-tier scaling, based on this calc.

Wait like what AFiEU????? Can you explain more in detail? or provide scans? I'm really curious to know what you're talking about... rn

The entire article is here, but the basic idea is that Gensokyo maintains its stability due to being open to new ideas and people from all walks of life (this is corroborated by ZUN talking about the nature of Gensokyo in an interview regarding HSiFS). Locations like the Lunar Capital, being insular and uncooperative by nature, are setting up their own downfall, and the walls they build are destined to fall one day.

This isn't really a powerscaling thing, but definitely implies that the Lunar Capital's "superiority" is a farce and merely prolonging the inevitable collapse of their society.

 

[Quibster]

Yorihime isn't a shrine maiden, she's simply a Lunarian princess and a swordsman who can summon gods. In terms of "Hax", unfortunately we don't have much to index beyond what gods she has summoned in SSiB (correct me if im wrong here), but she can possibly summon others with just as much effort-- it's one of her flagship abilities after all. At this point she's one of those characters that doesn't get much time on screen/panel, at least in recent memory. We had a good opportunity to have her as a character in LoLK, but ZUN explicitly wanted to not include the Hime sisters in the game (missed oppourtunity for one character to have the Imperishable Night swap mechanic UGHH)

Also I wanna point out, if Gensokyo is at least 280000 kilometers deep, then that's roughly 43 times the depth of the earth-- which subsequently suggests that Gensokyo posesses a much larger circumfrence than that of the Earth-- so the 5-B rating is reasonable at least. Anyways, I wanna ask, how would Sunken Fossil World fit into the equation? (i.e, Yuuma's Blood Pools). I haven't exactly played the title yet, but I'm curious if it's explicitly a deeper part of Old Hell-- and if that would suggest an "at least" rating to the calc?

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Yorihime isn't a shrine maiden, she's simply a Lunarian princess and a swordsman who can summon gods. In terms of "Hax", unfortunately we don't have much to index beyond what gods she has summoned in SSiB (correct me if im wrong here), but she can possibly summon others with just as much effort-- it's one of her flagship abilities after all. At this point she's one of those characters that doesn't get much time on screen/panel, at least in recent memory. We had a good opportunity to have her as a character in LoLK, but ZUN explicitly wanted to not include the Hime sisters in the game (missed oppourtunity for one character to have the Imperishable Night swap mechanic UGHH)

Yorihime claims that with her ability, she could win against the SSiB protags 40 million times in a row, so I just use that as the value for how many different gods she can potentially summon. That said, it wouldn't be unreasonable to say that she could call upon any of them if she really wanted to.

Also I wanna point out, if Gensokyo is at least 280000 kilometers deep, then that's roughly 43 times the depth of the earth-- which subsequently suggests that Gensokyo posesses a much larger circumfrence than that of the Earth-- so the 5-B rating is reasonable at least. Anyways, I wanna ask, how would Sunken Fossil World fit into the equation? (i.e, Yuuma's Blood Pools). I haven't exactly played the title yet, but I'm curious if it's explicitly a deeper part of Old Hell-- and if that would suggest an "at least" rating to the calc?

The calc is already measuring the depth by assuming that the Blood Pools are the deepest part of Former Hell and that Gensokyo and Former Hell are physically contiguous, so nothing would change.

Unrelated, but there has got to be a better way to do this.

 

[SomeJJJJ]

also, there's something that intrigues me about SSiB, why the hell is Marisa trying to convince Yorihime to fight under the spell card system? did she convince Yorihime to fight under that system because she considered her an absurdly strong enemy? besides, it doesn't help much that Marisa thinks to herself that Yorihime has no openings, the difference between her power and Reimu's is day and night, and if the lunar invaders had to fight her for real there's no way they could win. .. and speaking of Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom why the hell Sagume when she is defeated is not shown with torn clothes or wounds? is this because the Lunarians are uhh... superior or something? i know it sounds stupid after Fuji has refuted all this but i would like to know.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

also, there's something that intrigues me about SSiB, why the hell is Marisa trying to convince Yorihime to fight under the spell card system? did she convince Yorihime to fight under that system because she considered her an absurdly strong enemy? besides, it doesn't help much that Marisa thinks to herself that Yorihime has no openings, the difference between her power and Reimu's is day and night, and if the lunar invaders had to fight her for real there's no way they could win. .. and speaking of Legacy of Lunatic Kingdom why the hell Sagume when she is defeated is not shown with torn clothes or wounds? is this because the Lunarians are uhh... superior or something? i know it sounds stupid after Fuji has refuted all this but i would like to know.

Marisa uses the spell card rules because Yorihime has her at gunpoint. That's not a matter of AP scaling, she literally would not be able to engage in a serious fight at that point without getting cut to pieces. That aside... everyone in Gensokyo fights using the SCR anyways, so it's literally just Marisa saying "this is how we fight back where I'm from". The fact that she also teaches the SCR to a number of moon rabbits as well shows that it definitely isn't a matter of AP scaling, unless we really wanna scale every moon rabbit to 2-C. Of course, you could also just look at Reimu's statement that Yorihime's victory has nothing to do with strength.

Sagume not being visibly wounded was literally just because ZUN didn't want to have her in the defeated pose for a long time. Again, nothing to do with powerscaling.