RWBY: Penny lifting Amity and bomb ends

[Spinoirr]

Alright, so I figured I would make this due to some concerns that have been brought up regarding this feat. To clarify, this thread is not discussing the application of the feat itself, it is just a discussion of the methods used in order to determine which result is the most useable. To simplify this discussion a bit, i'm going to break down the different methods used here so we can figure out which should be used, going from least to most accurate and then we can talk about the application of the feat after we pick one end to use

Version 1: Atmospheric Measurement

This method measures the distance Amity fell using the stated height Amity was at at its apex (atmospheric orbit) and the height Amity was at just before Penny began to push it in order to find an approximate distance Amity fell and was pushed. This method, while not being as mathematically precise as Versions 3 and 4, is more than likely the safest end to use, as unlike the previous methods it does not rely on using Amity's trajectory or a calculated velocity to find the distance fell, it simply uses two set points in the atmosphere as a measurement for how far Amity fell and how far it was pushed. This removes the issues Rusty mentioned entirely as it calculates the distnce Amity fell without needing to worry about the influence of the Gravity stabilizers influencing its rate of fall.

This method also has the convenience of having a significant amount of on-screen showings and in-episode statements to back it up, such as Penny being eye-level with green Aurora Borealis, which form at heights of over 100 km, Pietro mentioning how the cold outside the arena is extremely dangerous to be in despite knowing that Penny can withstand arctic temperatures with no issue (The average annual temperature in the Arctic is -12 to -6° C, while the Mesosphere can be anywhere from -20 to -90° C), and Penny starting to burn up after she starts to fall, which only happens when something hits the planet's Mesosphere.

Version 2: Screen Measurement

This method measures the distance Amity fell and was pushed by measuring the various on-screen measurements of Amity's atmospheric height measurements from Pietro's computer. To be frank, this method is by far the least accurate, and was only done as a fallback super low end as it is the method of both Rusty's original calc as well as the calc done by the G1 blog, just updating their math with new values. The size of Amity portrayed on the screen is not exactly to scale, so using this method would be an extreme lowball.

Versions 3 and 4: Terminal Velocity and Freefalls:

This method measures the distance Amity fell and was pushed by using the trajectory Amity fell and the mass of Amity itself to find how fast it was falling and apply that velocity to the timeframe the fall took place in. This method is, at least in my opinion, the most mathematically accurate in terms of pure measurements and context from what is shown in the episode, but it suffers from a bit of a glaring problem. As Rusty brought up previously, Amity was not in a total freefall, but was drifting downwards at an angle as it had three of the four active Gravity Dust stabilizers influencing its rate of fall.

Version 5 is meant to compensate for this slightly, as it is measuring the push as being sheerly vertical rather than the full distance that Amity fell, and thus is meant to be a lowball for these measurements, but Rusty's point would still stand.

There is also this Atlas Bomb recalc: calc here there is two ends to chose

 

[Spinoirr]

Bump

 

[Spinoirr]

Bump

 

[Antvasima]

@Executor_N0 @Mr. Bambu @Therefir @Ugarik @DMUA @Damage3245 @Jasonsith @Migue79 @Chariot190 @SunDaGamer

What do you think about this?

 

[DMUA]

This removes the issues Rusty mentioned entirely

His issue seems to be that this thing isn't falling, but drifting due to a slow failure of antigravity mechanisms, thus she didn't really shove it's full weight, which isn't solved by what's happening here.

 

[Spinoirr]

His issue seems to be that this thing isn't falling, but drifting due to a slow failure of antigravity mechanisms, thus she didn't really shove it's full weight, which isn't solved by what's happening here.

She did shove it's full weight though, as it was stated in the episode itself that the anti gravity stabilizers were not providing any upward thrust and thus would not have been doing anything to lessen the load she was pushing.

If need be I can do a version that has her only pushing 1/4th of the weight but given the context from the episode itself it is very clear that she was pushing all of it herself.

Plus, the method in question is not calculating Amity falling itself. Its calculating the height that Amity was shown to be at its lowest point and then subtracting that from the height that Amity was stated to be at its peak to find the distance it dropped vertically, so the distance it drifted horizontally wouldn't matter.

 

[Maverick_Zero_X]

She did shove it's full weight though, as it was stated in the episode itself that the anti gravity stabilizers were not providing any upward thrust and thus would not have been doing anything to lessen the load she was pushing.

Link that statement if this is the case, please.

 

[Spinoirr]

Link that statement if this is the case, please.

Sure



At 2:12

"Pietro: We have enough systems up and running to broadcast our message and keep Amity in atmospheric orbit. But our thrusters just aren’t capable of reaching our target altitude on their own.

Maria: Ha, fortunately, we’re sitting on a couple hundred tons of thrust.

Pietro: Once we passed into broadcast range, we’ll activate stabilizers, re-establish global communications, and boost the message we’ve recorded out into the rest of the world. After that, we just have to pilot Amity away from all this mess."

For added context, the overarching plan for Amity was to use the explosion of a mountain of Dust combined with the tower's thrusters in order to launch it into orbit, and then keep it suspended there as a satellite.

 

[Spinoirr]

Bump

 

[Kingofwolves999]

In order for the stabilizers to keep Amity in the air, they would have to either change Amity’s weight (possible given they are gravity manipulating technology), or provide an upward force equal to Amity’s weight.

Pietro’s statement doesn’t help you here. There is no statement that the Stabilizers don’t provide upwards thrust, that’s an extrapolation and misunderstanding of the science he’s speaking about. In order for Amity to stay afloat at all, it would need an equal force opposing its weight, otherwise it would just fall, and the stabilizers are that equal force.

Newton’s Third Law. Every action has an equal and opposite reaction.

Amity was only ever going to stay in orbit thanks to the stabilizers negating its weight, in whichever manner they did so. Bur regardless of how they did it, Penny is not pushing against the full weight of Amity while the other stabilizers are active. She would only be pushing against the amount of force that is GREATER than what the other three stabilizers are dealing with.

This issue is very easily solved by asking “how do the stabilizers keep Amity from falling.”

Also the “drifting” Pietro is talking about refers to them falling downwards in addition to the horizontal movement. They are falling very slowly because the stabilizers are still acting against Amity’s weight.

 

[Spinoirr]

King, did you get mod permission to talk in this thread?

Bc this is a Calc Group Discussion thread

 

[Kingofwolves999]

Oops

 

[Maverick_Zero_X]

A board serving as a workshop for the calc group, to more easily discuss different calculations and wiki projects. Other members should only comment if they can provide information, or it is otherwise useful for a discussion.

King’s comment definitely provides information/is useful for discussion.

For the sake of following the “get authorization” rule, I approve of Kingofwolves making further comments that are relevant to the topic at hand.

 

[Spinoirr]

Anyways will respond later

 

[Spinoirr]

In order for the stabilizers to keep Amity in the air, they would have to either change Amity’s weight (possible given they are gravity manipulating technology), or provide an upward force equal to Amity’s weight.

Pietro’s statement doesn’t help you here. There is no statement that the Stabilizers don’t provide upwards thrust, that’s an extrapolation and misunderstanding of the science he’s speaking about. In order for Amity to stay afloat at all, it would need an equal force opposing its weight, otherwise it would just fall, and the stabilizers are that equal force.

Newton’s Third Law. Every action has an equal and opposite reaction.

Amity was only ever going to stay in orbit thanks to the stabilizers negating its weight, in whichever manner they did so. Bur regardless of how they did it, Penny is not pushing against the full weight of Amity while the other stabilizers are active. She would only be pushing against the amount of force that is GREATER than what the other three stabilizers are dealing with.

This issue is very easily solved by asking “how do the stabilizers keep Amity from falling.”

Also the “drifting” Pietro is talking about refers to them falling downwards in addition to the horizontal movement. They are falling very slowly because the stabilizers are still acting against Amity’s weight.

To answer your question of “how do the stabilizers keep Amity from falling”, the answer is "Anti-Gravity". The stabilizers utilize Gravity Dust in order to keep Amity afloat, using a form of anti-gravity that is commonly used to make vehicles in Atlas float, such as cars, trains, and airships. So its neither providing direct upward thrust nor affecting Amity's weight, the stabilizers were designed to keep amity locked in orbit through anti-gravity.

However, this would actually likely mean that Penny was not pushing the full weight of Amity herself, hence why I brought up the idea of a slight alteration using 1/4th the mass as the value for what she caught and pushed. And now that you've got me thinking about it, it should also be pretty easy to do a calculation of the force she exerted to catch Amity in the first place.

I've already addressed the drifting issue, the first method in particular makes it a non-issue as it isnt measuring Amity's trajectory to find the distance it fell at all, its just measuring the height it was at at its lowest and subtracting that from the stated height it was at at its highest.

 

[Kingofwolves999]

To answer your question of “how do the stabilizers keep Amity from falling”, the answer is "Anti-Gravity". The stabilizers utilize Gravity Dust in order to keep Amity afloat, using a form of anti-gravity that is commonly used to make vehicles in Atlas float, such as cars, trains, and airships. So its neither providing direct upward thrust nor affecting Amity's weight, the stabilizers were designed to keep amity locked in orbit through anti-gravity.

However, this would actually likely mean that Penny was not pushing the full weight of Amity herself, hence why I brought up the idea of a slight alteration using 1/4th the mass as the value for what she caught and pushed. And now that you've got me thinking about it, it should also be pretty easy to do a calculation of the force she exerted to catch Amity in the first place.

I've already addressed the drifting issue, the first method in particular makes it a non-issue as it isnt measuring Amity's trajectory to find the distance it fell at all, its just measuring the height it was at at its lowest and subtracting that from the stated height it was at at its highest.

Ok but the issue here is what you just said makes negative sense in any way shape or form.

What do you mean “anti-gravity” is making it float? You realize that would make Amity effectively weightless right?

Weight = Force

Force = Mass * Acceleration = Mass * Gravity.

If “Anti-Gravity” is being enacted upon Amity, that means it has no weight or force because gravity is not working on it. Which would absolutely influence what would occur to it if someone were to push against it.

 

[DMUA]

Yeah, I can't really say I'm any more convinced by elaboration. This just shouldn't be used, unless I'm unaware of a way to calculate inertia (which this would still have even if it's weight is negated)

 

[Spinoirr]

Ok but the issue here is what you just said makes negative sense in any way shape or form.

What do you mean “anti-gravity” is making it float? You realize that would make Amity effectively weightless right?

Weight = Force

Force = Mass * Acceleration = Mass * Gravity.

If “Anti-Gravity” is being enacted upon Amity, that means it has no weight or force because gravity is not working on it. Which would absolutely influence what would occur to it if someone were to push against it.

Its not making Amity weightless, its negating the pull of gravity on Amity, similar to the mountains around Lake Matsu.

And it still very much demonstrates mass when the stabilizers are active, as Penny has to put active effort into pushing to stop Amity from falling. Its just that with only three out of the four active, there is not a strong enough anti-gravity field being generated to keep Amity in the air, so it started falling.

it clearly has Mass, why else would Penny be struggling to lift it in the first place, why are the people inside not floating too?

Basically only the anti-gravity stabilizers are the things with anti-gravity, they're the ones with the gravity dust in them, it's basically keeping it floating in place

Yeah, I can't really say I'm any more convinced by elaboration. This just shouldn't be used, unless I'm unaware of a way to calculate inertia (which this would still have even if it's weight is negated)

Mass Moment of Inertia Calculator

If you want to find out what is the moment of inertia of an object, our mass moment of inertia calculator is here to help you.

www.omnicalculator.com

 

[Kingofwolves999]

Its not making Amity weightless, its negating the pull of gravity on Amity, similar to the mountains around Lake Matsu.

And it still very much demonstrates mass when the stabilizers are active, as Penny has to put active effort into pushing to stop Amity from falling. Its just that with only three out of the four active, there is not a strong enough anti-gravity field being generated to keep Amity in the air, so it started falling.

it clearly has Mass, why else would Penny be struggling to lift it in the first place, why are the people inside not floating too?

Basically only the anti-gravity stabilizers are the things with anti-gravity, they're the ones with the gravity dust in them, it's basically keeping it floating in place

Mass Moment of Inertia Calculator

If you want to find out what is the moment of inertia of an object, our mass moment of inertia calculator is here to help you.

www.omnicalculator.com

I know it still has mass? Hello? I’m talking about weight here. If gravity is not working on Amity, then it has no weight. Clearly the Mass is still there otherwise it wouldn’t be taking up space. You’re confusing weight with mass.

And yes, I know Penny has to actually push it because it now has weight? I’m saying that’s a problem with YOUR statement. You claim that there is no upward force helping Penny push Amity, but there is: the other stabilizers that are negating a MASSIVE amount of Amity’s gravity, enough that it is floating to the ground slowly rather than plummeting into a free fall.

Penny is pushing against whatever amount of weight/force that is not being accounted for by the other three stabilizers.

And hold up, you’re saying that only the stabilizers have gravity dust in them, but Amity itself doesn’t? So that would mean that the stabilizers are producing a counterforce to gravity itself that is higher than or equal to Amity’s weight in order for it to stay in the air.

So regardless of what method you’re going for or what description you use, Penny has massive amounts of help against Amity’s weight. She is not pushing the whole thing up.

 

[Spinoirr]

I know it still has mass? Hello? I’m talking about weight here. If gravity is not working on Amity, then it has no weight. Clearly the Mass is still there otherwise it wouldn’t be taking up space. You’re confusing weight with mass.

And yes, I know Penny has to actually push it because it now has weight? I’m saying that’s a problem with YOUR statement. You claim that there is no upward force helping Penny push Amity, but there is: the other stabilizers that are negating a MASSIVE amount of Amity’s gravity, enough that it is floating to the ground slowly rather than plummeting into a free fall.

Penny is pushing against whatever amount of weight/force that is not being accounted for by the other three stabilizers.

And hold up, you’re saying that only the stabilizers have gravity dust in them, but Amity itself doesn’t? So that would mean that the stabilizers are producing a counterforce to gravity itself that is higher than or equal to Amity’s weight in order for it to stay in the air.

So regardless of what method you’re going for or what description you use, Penny has massive amounts of help against Amity’s weight. She is not pushing the whole thing up.

Alright so there seems to be some slight confusion, sorry if I worded the description weirdly before. In the scene in question, gravity is very much working on Amity because one of the stabilizers that was generating anti-gravity was destroyed, causing Amity to actively fall out of the sky. Weight is still very much a thing in this scene.

Correct, because rather than pushing Amity upwards the anti-gravity stabilizers just keep it locked at one altitude, thats why they needed the combination of the explosion of an entire mountain of Dust as well as the four thrusters to get Amity into orbit in the first place.

Yes, the stabilizers are what have gravity dust in them, not Amity itself. And I see the point you're making, thats why I brought up adding an end using only 1/4th of the weight and mass as what Penny was pushing rather than the full weight and mass.

 

[Kingofwolves999]

Alright so there seems to be some slight confusion, sorry if I worded the description weirdly before. In the scene in question, gravity is very much working on Amity because one of the stabilizers that was generating anti-gravity was destroyed, causing Amity to actively fall out of the sky. Weight is still very much a thing in this scene.

Correct, because rather than pushing Amity upwards the anti-gravity stabilizers just keep it locked at one altitude, thats why they needed the combination of the explosion of an entire mountain of Dust as well as the four thrusters to get Amity into orbit in the first place.

Yes, the stabilizers are what have gravity dust in them, not Amity itself. And I see the point you're making, thats why I brought up adding an end using only 1/4th of the weight and mass as what Penny was pushing rather than the full weight and mass.

All of that I already know. The anti-gravity stabilizers are creating an exact opposite force to Amity’s weight to keep it afloat at a specific altitude. Hence, when one of them fails, Penny is in no way pushing up against the full weight.

This brings me to your calc: anything involving free fall is invalid. Amity is not at terminal velocity or falling fast, it is drifting slowly because at the very least 75% of its weight is being directed back up at it to keep it airborne. It is falling incredibly slowly, cause if it was not, then everyone on board would be flung upwards.

Also, since the stabilizers have anti-gravity enacted upon them, shouldn’t their weight be removed from the calculation? Heck, if anything they should be subtracting weight since they’re directly opposing Amity’s weight.

 

[Kingofwolves999]

Also, could someone tag Rusty? They seem to be the main blockade for this calc and probably have better insight into it as they created their own version a while back that they now disagree with. So from a calc group stance, they’re the better authority.

 

[Spinoirr]

All of that I already know. The anti-gravity stabilizers are creating an exact opposite force to Amity’s weight to keep it afloat at a specific altitude. Hence, when one of them fails, Penny is in no way pushing up against the full weight.

This brings me to your calc: anything involving free fall is invalid. Amity is not at terminal velocity or falling fast, it is drifting slowly because at the very least 75% of its weight is being directed back up at it to keep it airborne. It is falling incredibly slowly, cause if it was not, then everyone on board would be flung upwards.

Also, since the stabilizers have anti-gravity enacted upon them, shouldn’t their weight be removed from the calculation? Heck, if anything they should be subtracting weight since they’re directly opposing Amity’s weight.

Yes, I already addressed the issues with the Freefall methods in the OP, that's why im pushing more towards the first method with an adjustment of 1/4th the mass rather than the full mass.

That seems unnecessary? The stabilizers are still huge machines attached to Amity, they dont lack mass or weight just because theyre generating anti-gravity. Though even if you did do that, the weight of the thrusters would balance it out.

 

[Spinoirr]

Okay but fr we need a mod to contact calc members

 

[Spinoirr]

Amity weighs 57182412382.4 kg

57182412382.4 / 4 = 14295603095.6 kg

Low-End Distance Catch KE = 1/2 (14295603095.6) x 615.197333333^2 = 2.7052124e+15 Joules, '''646.5612810707457356 Kilotons of TNT'''

High-End Distance Catch KE = 1/2 (14295603095.6) x 5078.13866667^2 = 1.8432388e+17 Joules, '''44.054464627151048717 Megatons of TNT'''

Low-End Distance Push KE = 1/2 (14295603095.6) x 2185.84154358^2 = 3.4151504e+16 Joules, '''8.162405353728489743 Megatons of TNT'''

High-End distance Push KE = 1/2 (14295603095.6) x 17768.8614254^2 = 2.2567928e+18 Joules, '''539.38642447418737902 Megatons of TNT'''

How is this?

Dividing it by four like I suggested

 

[Kingofwolves999]

Hold on a second. Are you claiming Amity is falling several hundred meters per second? And that Penny is pushing it several kilometers per second?

That’s complete cap, you can see that Amity is falling at an incredibly slow rate and Penny is pushing it barely even 10 meters a second upwards.

 

[Kingofwolves999]

Yes, I already addressed the issues with the Freefall methods in the OP, that's why im pushing more towards the first method with an adjustment of 1/4th the mass rather than the full mass.

That seems unnecessary? The stabilizers are still huge machines attached to Amity, they dont lack mass or weight just because theyre generating anti-gravity. Though even if you did do that, the weight of the thrusters would balance it out.

Here’s my issue, now that I’ve got a bit more clarification from Rusty’s comments. The issue seems to be that the assumption for how the stabilizers work could completely throw the entire “no upward thrust” argument into disarray.

There are multiple methods through which the gravity dust is working on Amity/the stabilizers, and each of them doesn’t work if you just quarter the weight of Amity and say that amount of weight is falling and Penny is experiencing it with no aid.

For the current explanation (the stabilizers are the only things experiencing anti-gravity), then this would mean the stabilizers are falling upwards. The current method implies that the stabilizers are all falling at a rate comparable to or higher than Remnants gravity in order to keep everything afloat. In fact, they would actually HAVE to be falling faster in order to overcome the weight, as they are pushing against something far heavier than they are collectively. This WOULD be providing an upward force, a force directly opposing Amity falling, and thus even if a single stabilizer failed, the weight distribution Penny experiences would not be 1/4.

If 1/4 of Amity’s weight is unaccounted for and experiences normal gravity/no force against it, Amity should be leaning onto that side and falling far faster. But if the stabilizers are experiencing “Anti-Gravity” and are falling upwards as a result, then Penny is not experiencing 1/4 weight. The other three stabilizers are still pushing against Amity, attempting to make it go up.

It’s like if 4 people are required to lift a couch, but 1 of them goes away. The couch begins to overpower the three men and slowly go down. If a child shows up and pushes as hard as they can against the unattended side of the couch, enough to offset the burden, the other three men have an easier time lifting it, but that doesn’t mean the child is handling literally 1/4 the weight of the couch. If that were the case, that would mean the child is as strong as any of the men, which wouldn’t be sensible.

 

[DMUA]

Mass Moment of Inertia Calculator

If you want to find out what is the moment of inertia of an object, our mass moment of inertia calculator is here to help you.

www.omnicalculator.com

This is moment of inertia, in reference to rotation. This is definitely not a 200 meter lever swinging down onto Penny.

 

[Chariot190]

Ha, fortunately, we’re sitting on a couple hundred tons of thrust.

Just snip off a few hundred tons of thrust ig.

 

[Spinoirr]

Here’s my issue, now that I’ve got a bit more clarification from Rusty’s comments. The issue seems to be that the assumption for how the stabilizers work could completely throw the entire “no upward thrust” argument into disarray.

There are multiple methods through which the gravity dust is working on Amity/the stabilizers, and each of them doesn’t work if you just quarter the weight of Amity and say that amount of weight is falling and Penny is experiencing it with no aid.

For the current explanation (the stabilizers are the only things experiencing anti-gravity), then this would mean the stabilizers are falling upwards. The current method implies that the stabilizers are all falling at a rate comparable to or higher than Remnants gravity in order to keep everything afloat. In fact, they would actually HAVE to be falling faster in order to overcome the weight, as they are pushing against something far heavier than they are collectively. This WOULD be providing an upward force, a force directly opposing Amity falling, and thus even if a single stabilizer failed, the weight distribution Penny experiences would not be 1/4.

If 1/4 of Amity’s weight is unaccounted for and experiences normal gravity/no force against it, Amity should be leaning onto that side and falling far faster. But if the stabilizers are experiencing “Anti-Gravity” and are falling upwards as a result, then Penny is not experiencing 1/4 weight. The other three stabilizers are still pushing against Amity, attempting to make it go up.

It’s like if 4 people are required to lift a couch, but 1 of them goes away. The couch begins to overpower the three men and slowly go down. If a child shows up and pushes as hard as they can against the unattended side of the couch, enough to offset the burden, the other three men have an easier time lifting it, but that doesn’t mean the child is handling literally 1/4 the weight of the couch. If that were the case, that would mean the child is as strong as any of the men, which wouldn’t be sensible.

Like I said in the response to Rusty's comment, the argument of 'it doesnt look like its being moved that fast' falls apart completely when the only thing being used as a reference for how fast it looks like its moving is the entire night sky. We know exactly how high Amity was at its peak and we know exactly how high Amity was at its lowest, and the difference between those two numbers is bare minimum 40 km.

The main issue with this argument is that stabilizers providing upward thrust directly contradicts what is stated to be happening in the episode itself, as well as the overall story in Volumes 7 and 8. The stabilizers were designed to keep Amity locked in orbit indefinitely to use it as a permanent global communication satellite. If the stabilizers were capable of providing upward thrust it wouldnt have been a major, season-spanning issue that they needed a combination of the giant rockets strapped to the top of Amity and the explosion of a mountain to get Amity into orbit in the first place and that they physically could not get Amity into orbit any other way.

They arent pushing Amity upwards, they're just keeping it from falling downwards. You are applying completely different mechanics to Gravity Dust that directly contradicts how it is shown to work.

Your analogy is functionally flawed in its comparison. If all Penny did was stop Amity from falling and keep it in one place, acting as a replacement for the destroyed stabilizer it would work, but she didnt. Penny didnt just offset the burden, she actively pushed Amity back to its original height in the atmosphere.

A more accurate comparison is youre hanging a weight from he ceiling by a set of four elastic bands. The bands all working together hold the weight without any issue, then you cut one, and the rest just gradually stretch to the floor as theyre not capable of supporting the full weight without the fourth band. Then a person comes along and lifts the weight back up to where it originally was. The bands might have done some work, but the person still lifted a majority of the weight themselves.

 

[Spinoirr]

Just snip off a few hundred tons of thrust ig.

The few hundred tons of thrust is in regards to the explosives used to detonate the mountain of Dust during the initial launch sequence.

 

[Chariot190]

Uh, calc the natural descent, descent with the anti-g stuff, and subtract it from the penny calc? It's all the same scene so calc stacking shouldnt apply.

Probably a pain in the ass tho, like that i aint doing.

 

[Kingofwolves999]

Like I said in the response to Rusty's comment, the argument of 'it doesnt look like its being moved that fast' falls apart completely when the only thing being used as a reference for how fast it looks like its moving is the entire night sky. We know exactly how high Amity was at its peak and we know exactly how high Amity was at its lowest, and the difference between those two numbers is bare minimum 40 km.

The main issue with this argument is that stabilizers providing upward thrust directly contradicts what is stated to be happening in the episode itself, as well as the overall story in Volumes 7 and 8. The stabilizers were designed to keep Amity locked in orbit indefinitely to use it as a permanent global communication satellite. If the stabilizers were capable of providing upward thrust it wouldnt have been a major, season-spanning issue that they needed a combination of the giant rockets strapped to the top of Amity and the explosion of a mountain to get Amity into orbit in the first place and that they physically could not get Amity into orbit any other way.

They arent pushing Amity upwards, they're just keeping it from falling downwards. You are applying completely different mechanics to Gravity Dust that directly contradicts how it is shown to work.

Your analogy is functionally flawed in its comparison. If all Penny did was stop Amity from falling and keep it in one place, acting as a replacement for the destroyed stabilizer it would work, but she didnt. Penny didnt just offset the burden, she actively pushed Amity back to its original height in the atmosphere.

A more accurate comparison is youre hanging a weight from he ceiling by a set of four elastic bands. The bands all working together hold the weight without any issue, then you cut one, and the rest just gradually stretch to the floor as theyre not capable of supporting the full weight without the fourth band. Then a person comes along and lifts the weight back up to where it originally was. The bands might have done some work, but the person still lifted a majority of the weight themselves.

The issue I have is exactly that your height for amity is off based on what we see on screen. It’s not about “the entire night sky,” it’s just what we are looking at. Penny, relative to what you are claiming is occurring, is not moving that fast when she pushes Amity back into position. The height for Amity you have calculated is flawed going by the on screen presentation.

If they are falling several hundred meters a second, why does Pietro refer to them as drifting? It would be plummeting, falling, descending rapidly, not drifting. In fact, at that level of speed, they should all be flung upwards into the ceiling of Amity and crushed as the massive hunk of rock fell at terminal velocity towards the ground. The fact that it’s referred to as “drifting” and they are all moving completely normally, as well as the showing of it falling incredibly slowly relative to both Penny taking several seconds to gaze at Atlas (12:26-12:41) just for its position to not even change and the incredibly slower pace of its descent we DO see (shown at around 12:49), leads me to believe that no, Amity is not falling at several hundred meters a second.

You misunderstand my point about the upwards thrust and gravity in general. Mainly because you’re not understanding how Anti-Gravity should work in the scenario you’re describing.

Anti-Gravity, as you are claiming it does, needs to be providing an upwards force against normal Gravity in order to keep Amity afloat. Effectively, the stabilizers are falling upwards. If it does not provide that upward force, then it will not keep Amity afloat.

Applying an upwards force equal to the downwards force of Amity’s weight means that Amity will stay at whatever altitude the stabilizers activate at. It would not fly upwards, it would stay still. Hence your argument about “they wouldn’t need the dust mountain” is irrelevant. That’s not how upward force works in this moment. The stabilizers create equal force to Amity to stabilize it. If they created higher force then Amity, then Amity would go upwards and they would not be stabilizers.

As for the weight, I dislike your analogy but do not much care for the usage of 1/4.

 

[Spinoirr]

Uh, calc the natural descent, descent with the anti-g stuff, and subtract it from the penny calc? It's all the same scene so calc stacking shouldnt apply.

Probably a pain in the ass tho, like that i aint doing.

That was already done with the first method in the OP. It's taking the height that Amity was at at its peak, measuring the height Amity was at at its lowest, and using the difference as the distance Amity dropped vertically as it was drifting.

 

[Chariot190]

I meant more calculate the energy output from a natural fall/the anti g meme things that slowed it's descent, figure that shit out, and subtract that value from penny's.

 

[Kingofwolves999]

That was already done with the first method in the OP. It's taking the height that Amity was at at its peak, measuring the height Amity was at at its lowest, and using the difference as the distance Amity dropped vertically as it was drifting.

Your method of getting the height it was at for its peak is questionable, as that is what leads to the absurdly high fall speed that is clearly not occurring.

I meant more calculate the energy output from a natural fall/the anti g meme things that slowed it's descent, figure that shit out, and subtract that value from penny's.

If you mean find how fast it was falling before the stabilizers were broken, there is no scene of that. The stabilizers activated when it reached the proper altitude, and then stayed active the entire time until one of them failed and it began to slowly drift downwards.

 

[Chariot190]

If you mean find how fast it was falling before the stabilizers were broken, there is no scene of that. The stabilizers activated when it reached the proper altitude, and then stayed active the entire time until one of them failed and it began to slowly drift downwards.

No i mean, figure out the energy from it falling naturally.
Figure out the energy from it falling with ****** up stabilizers. By doing this, we can figure out the energy the stabilizers were outputting to keep it from just hard dropping like a brick.

Subtract that from penny's lifting it up, as evidently, the work to cause it to simply drift from the stabilizers, as opposed to just hard dropping, isnt due to her and must be subtracted from her value.

Given this is all the same exact feat, calc stacking shouldnt apply, it'd just be calculating aspects of one whole.

Of course this is a ******* pain in the ass but shrug, aint me doing it so

 

[Spinoirr]

I meant more calculate the energy output from a natural fall/the anti g meme things that slowed it's descent, figure that shit out, and subtract that value from penny's.

The first method isnt even affected by the gravity stabilizer issue being discussed here, because it is the rate that amity was falling and the distance it fell while it had three stabilizers still active. Things like gravity and mass make no difference because it's just a simple distance/time calculation.

Your method of getting the height it was at for its peak is questionable, as that is what leads to the absurdly high fall speed that is clearly not occurring.

What? I didnt calculate its height at its peak, the height at its peak is based directly off of the statement from the same episode where they say that Amity would have to be in atmospheric orbit to be used as a global communication satellite. The numbers for its peak height come from the measurements of the various levels of orbit done by NASA and the numerous satellites launched into orbit irl.

Spoiler

Distance from point of view to object = object size x panel height in pixels/[object height in pixels x 2 x tan(70deg/2)] = 12209.2839684 x 698/[51 x 2 x tan(70deg/2)] = 119321.488874 m, or 119.321488874 km

Details that support Penny being this high into the air also include her being eye-level with the Aurora Borealis, which forms 90 and 150 km into the atmosphere:

• Green: Green is the most common color seen from the ground and is produced when charged particles collide with oxygen molecules at altitudes of 100 to 300 km.
• Altitude affects the colors. Blue violet/reds occur below 60 miles (100 km), with bright green strongest between 60-150 miles (100-240 km). Above 150 miles (240 km) ruby reds appear.
• Green-colored auroras are most frequent, resulting from interactions with oxygen molecules at lower altitudes (between 100-300 km or 62-180 mi).

Pietro mentioning how the cold outside the arena is extremely dangerous to be in, with the entire cast being able to survive in arctic temperatures in normal clothes with no issue:

• The average annual temperature in the Arctic is -12 to -6° C.
• The Mesosphere can be anywhere from -20 to -90° C.

As well as Penny burning up after she starts falling, implying she has hit the planet's Mesosphere:

• Have you ever seen a meteor shower, where meteors burn up and streak across the sky? Some people call them shooting stars. Those meteors are burning up in the mesosphere. The meteors make it through the exosphere and thermosphere without much trouble because those layers don’t have much air. But when they hit the mesosphere, there are enough gasses to cause friction and create heat.

Penny pushed Amity over the course of 18.61 seconds, but how far did she push it? Earlier in the episode, it is mentioned that Amity has to be in atmospheric orbit to reach broadcasting range:

"Pietro: We have enough systems up and running to broadcast our message and keep Amity in atmospheric orbit. But our thrusters just aren’t capable of reaching our target altitude on their own."

The lowest end boundary of Very Low Earth Orbit is 160 km, so that would be our lowest end, with the lowest end of Low Earth Orbit being 450 km.

Taken directly from the blog

 

[Kingofwolves999]

The first method isnt even affected by the gravity stabilizer issue being discussed here, because it is the rate that amity was falling and the distance it fell while it had three stabilizers still active. Things like gravity and mass make no difference because it's just a simple distance/time calculation.

What? I didnt calculate its height at its peak, the height at its peak is based directly off of the statement from the same episode where they say that Amity would have to be in atmospheric orbit to be used as a global communication satellite. The numbers for its peak height come from the measurements of the various levels of orbit done by NASA and the numerous satellites launched into orbit irl.

I misspoke, meant the height below the low orbit you calculated.

Though even then, you can’t really claim Remnant has the exact same atmosphere as Earth considering the differences between the two planets geographically and logically (especially in regard to the moon). But that’s arguing semantics.

 

[Spinoirr]

I misspoke, meant the height below the low orbit you calculated.

Though even then, you can’t really claim Remnant has the exact same atmosphere as Earth considering the differences between the two planets geographically and logically (especially in regard to the moon). But that’s arguing semantics.

I mean if you can't calculate a different planet then Earth size, we assume everything is the same as earth on the wiki

Like planet size, gravity and more unless stated otherwise or proven otherwise Like Dragon Balls Earth being bigger then our own due to the super dragon balls